The Reviews Are In

@mellotronrules: I'm at 140 hours and also got the plat last night, so you're not alone. But I don't want to move on to NG+ yet so I can mop up all the caves and ruins etc that I missed. FWIW I agree very much with your point 1 about reviewers who say that everything seems unique just haven't played enough yet, there were plenty of repeats of bosses all over the place etc.

@therealturk: That whole quest is... interesting. It's messy as hell but I kind of admire the structure of it where throughout the game you can find separate seemingly unrelated pieces of it and then put it all together that way. It's a fun idea but it's completely impossible to solve on one's own if you just followed it in a linear fashion.

Like step 2 made sense to me because I had already known that NPC from like 4 other completely unrelated quests that established why he would have the objective, but there is absolutely no connective tissue leading from the previous thing you need to do in the questline.

@atheistpreacher: Every open world game out for the next year or more is going to be shit on relentlessly for not being as good as Elden Rings and the only difference is going to be that they'll have map markers and I'm already tired just thinking about it.

@efesell: Yeah, my problem was that I had advanced Ranni's quest to the point where Seluvis died before I was able to find Nepheli Loux to give her the potion. And I didn't find her because she'd moved to a part of the map I had already definitively "cleared" and therefore had no reason to go back.

Because Seluvis died, I didn't find his hidden lab until much later and so had no way of connecting the location to Sellen.

And honestly, even that wouldn't have sunk me entirely if her soul item had given some sort of hint about where I was supposed to go with it. It already gives you enough to know you need to find another body for her, but it didn't really give you a hint to check out Seluvis' stuff. All they needed to do was append something mentioning puppets into the item description and I would have gotten it. For example "Concern yourself not with the flesh. For what is a body but a puppet on strings?"

@atheistpreacher: Honestly, reviewing this game the week of release feels like malpractice after finishing the game. There is no way a reviewer had the time to know that every mine was the same dungeon with a slightly different boss at the end. Or that every catacomb was very similar. They did not have enough time to try out all of the NPC quests that are inscrutable without a wiki. All of the open world critiques that get lobbed at other series can be lobbed at Elden Ring, but the reviews got out before anyone could know for sure because of the lack of quality of life features in Elden Ring. If a review said, "This is an open world game but it gets a little bump because I like the From combat, worldbuilding, and storytelling more than the Assassin's Creed stuff." fine. But that's not how this game was sold. It was sold as a reinvention or elevation of the genre and after beating it in 50 hours I'm pretty sure that is false.

I'm not sure the reviewers who've lost their minds over this game would've dialed it back any with less playtime, really. While I'm closing in on 90 hours at this point, I'm still relating to me at 20-ish hours in who was already recognizing that the elemental structure of this game was remarkably similar to Horizon but without the quest markers - and at that point I hadn't even realized just how standardized the location markings on the map were because I hadn't collected any map pieces yet, still thinking those icons on the fog of war were Stakes of Marika.

But I could also see the fundamental appeal in just stumbling into northern Caelid and finding a brood of dragons complete with a mammoth mother dragon and being given no prior indication that anything interesting was going to happen there. That is still going to stroke that "I found this, not the game" portion of the ego that reviewers have been raving about in a way that I personally still get from a map loaded with question marks but can understand many others don't.

Now that I'm this deep into the game, though, my main concern is that I've simply forgotten a lot of things I wanted to do earlier. Just last night it was taking a while to get a ride home from work and I randomly started thinking about a handful of side bosses I could remember bailing on for one reason or another but couldn't remember at all where they were located or why, exactly, I wasn't up for the task at the time. While it ultimately doesn't matter and I could totally just look at a boss list on Fextralife to figure out where and what they are, it does strike me as a tad absurd that they included any sort of hint systems on the map in the first place. That the golden tails seem to linger even after you've completed whatever activities they might be hinting you towards is whacky and a bit infuriating, creating a differently kind of needlessly busy and unintuitive map.

I'm not sure I really see a problem with the game being reviewed that way. A review being the experience you had is fine and it's likely to be the experience a lot of players have as well. Elden Ring pulls a great trick with its open world and makes it seem much more fantastical than it really is behind the scenes.

My only frustration will be when this aspect of the game is forgotten entirely and the next Ubiworld or whatever is put down because ugh all these repetitive ? marks I'm so tired of these open worlds I miss Elden Ring.

What I would personally like to see is Elden Ring moving from a "THIS IS HOW GAMES SHOULD BE!" thing to being seen as providing an argument for not having things like a quest log and how a modern game could adapt or design itself around that approach if it wants.

Because I do think it makes a solid argument, even if we don't all agree on everything it does. That's kind of the point of an argument though, right? We can pick and choose what works or what doesn't and why, but Elden Ring at the very least gives someone a solid base to work with.

Even the community aspect-what it means to have to rely on wikis and other players for important info-is incredibly compelling to me. Even on this forum you've got people sharing discoveries and tactics in ways you might not have gotten in a more traditional take on an open world game. Of course this also leads to players getting lost or confused, which is where the argument aspect comes back in to play.

One thing I've really been thinking about lately is how player interactions with NPCs and their side-quests is From's take on the whole "choices matter" style of story telling, and how relying on community resources is diametrically opposed to that but it's an idea I'm still working through in my head.

@thatpinguino: I mean, I get it, though. People are looking for reviews around release, you want to have something up. Not their fault if they hadn't been given the game early enough. I guess the best you can do in that circumstance is what Gamespot/Tamoor did and have a review-in-progress.

@atheistpreacher: I completely get the business reality. It's just a bummer to me as a person who was kinda excited to see "the evolution of the genre" and instead I found a pretty normal open world with fewer quality of life features and some Souls gameplay loops. I feel like I was oversold on the uniqueness of this game's open world mechanics. Instead it feels like this game hit the right spots for a reviewer who is down for a normal Souls game, but 4 times as long. Like @efesell said, some Souls shine is being applied to things that are completely par for the course for the genre.

@thatpinguino: Yeah, you're right. A lot of reviewers were indeed hyping on a revolution/uniqueness that really isn't there. It's a Souls game with an open world, nothing more and nothing less. Which for me is just fine. But if the implication is that Elden Ring was going to convert people who hadn't already liked those games... eh, not so much, except maybe in the very loose sense that there are probably people who were intrigued enough by the very idea of an open-world Souls game that they stuck with it longer than they had for the other games. But that's not really the same thing!

@efesell: I'd argue that the presence or absence of map markers is largely irrelevant to what makes Elden Ring's open world enjoyable. To me its the rewards that are offered. I made the comparison to Fenix Rising in another thread a while ago. I liked Fenix, but other then some cool visuals at times my rewards for completing something in Fenix was basically 1/8th of a thing.

Now many of Elden Ring's powerful upgrades are for builds outside of the one you're playing but they're still cool and exciting and when you land a solid reward that lines up with yours for clearing a dungeon and you're rewarded with a cache of smiting stones and your weapon jumps up 2 or 3 levels thats just inherently more exciting in my opinion. And its made more exciting because it has a tangible benefit that evolves the gameplay. You're always working toward something. I tried playing Valhalla recently on my cross platform save, decided to restart and... realized the gameplay was unchanged from my level whatever character vs my fresh start. There is just less there.

Not saying I think you're wrong but there is a pretty big difference between whats on offer here then with an Ubisoft game.

All the critical acclaim saying its redefined the genre is disingenuous for sure. Its no different then other quality open world titles that have come before it and earned their acclaim.

@junkerman: You make a good point. In fact, I think part of the reason I haven't returned to either Bloodborne or Sekiro is that there's less game-changing equipment to find in those games. Elden Ring just has a ton of that stuff and it's satisfying to get. The reality is that I'll never use 90% of it, but every little mini-dungeon, even if it has a copy-paste of a boss you've fought previously, is still going to give you a new weapon, or new spell, or new ash of war, or new spirit ashes, or new talisman, etc. It's nice going into a dungeon knowing you'll come out of it with something that has meaningful gameplay implications, even if, as you say, it may not fit your current build. A lot of other games these days try to accomplish the same thing by just doing randomized color coded loot everywhere, but it ain't quite the same thing.

I dunno, I did so many dungeons where I knew definitively that I was going to walk out of it with nothing because I had done several other of the same type and knew what kind of rewards it offered.

One things I'd probably dump in any future iteration is crafting. Despite there being about a thousand recipe books, it feels completely inessential. Outside of some throwing knives and boluses, I don't think I've crafted more than handful of items and never found the things I was crafting very useful.

@therealturk: That was something that confused the hell out of me. I kept finding crafting items that the game clearly viewed as important, but I never found a recipe that seemed worth crafting beyond some throwing items and antidotes.

I crafted one time and it was because I wanted to make a scarlet rot bolus or whatever and then realized that why bother I'm wading through this stuff anyway I'll just heal through it.

@efesell: Trying to use boluses in most of the cases where you will be wading through a poison swamp seems like a fool's errand. It seems even dumber in combat situations where someone is stacking bleed or frostbite. I ultimately only used them when I ran out of healing and was in an otherwise safe place.

@therealturk

yeah, with a game this competently made (and so god damned large) personal taste will be a significant determining factor for the agreeability of the broader design decisions. where some might see a massive empty map and marvel "my god, i wonder what's out there!" my broken must-see-everything-brain kinda exhausts/stresses me out and i think "my god, i'll need to spend hours wondering if i've missed anything." i think it's why i tend to have a positive yet subdued experience with games like this or Breath of the Wild- i enjoy my time, but once i've seen it, i kinda never want to go back. there's a certain amount of relief i get from linear or more directed experiences knowing that i'm exactly where i'm supposed to be. same goes for maps with pre-completed icons...there's a comfort in that- at least for me.

OR (and i apologize to keep invoking it) go completely sandbox-y like Minecraft- for me that's more palatable because i know i'm not missing an incredible legacy dungeon, trying a difficult boss too early, or overlooking a piece of intentional design...because the whole thing is exploration, crafting, and procedural.

tl;dr- the digital FOMO is real. but i also recognize it's a very personal thing.

and yes, the Sellen progression is kinda insane. i have zero problems hitting the wiki for FromSoft game NPC quests because 1) i don't find them particularly engaging, so they're not spoiled on me and 2) the right place at the right time thing is not fun for me to try and puzzle out.

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@atheistpreacher

glad to hear others are having similar thoughts. there's no denying there's a metric ton of handcrafted content in this- but i'm also saying i've fought 10 magma wyrms and the whole black knife squad.

@therealturk: I'm fairly convinced the crafting was introduced as a response to how popular weapon oils was for speedrunners in earlier titles. It would've been a big deal in this game as well, but the meta is just Ash skill spam. I will say though, if you are largely relying on normal attacks you really really should use the crafting system. Being able to consistently buff your weapon as a non-caster is quite useful.

@ares42: I guess I would counter that:

(a) They could just as easily put those items in the store at the Roundtable Hold. It might actually make the store somewhat useful, as it's sort of a vestigial "we had it because the other games had it" thing right now.

(b) The game is big enough that you will almost certainly be able to spec at least partway into magic. A lot of the elemental buff spells are easy to acquire and have surprisingly low stat requirements this time around.

(c) Even for total non-casters, the Ashes of War offers a pretty easy and flexible way to get some elemental damage if you need it. I practically lived off of a standard Katana and Hoarfrost Stomp until I had enough Int for Moonveil.

@therealturk: I'm not the one to defend their design decisions (as stated earlier, I don't have as much confidence in their ability as most people). I'm just saying that's what I believe their intentions were. The crafting system specifically encourages using consumables, and the only consumables that has seen any decent use in their former titles were the weapon oils.

The only other reasoning would be "well, it's an open world game so we should put in some crafting", and even I would hope they're more thoughtful about their design than that.

I went through the whole game and didn't craft one item. Even though I purchased all the needed items and found many recipe scripts during my playthrough, I didn't see a need to do so. I also have some issues with the game, like no matter how much you upgraded your character, you're still a couple of hits away from dying, especially with bosses. The fact there are many repeat bosses, especially when you go into those catacomb and dungeon areas. The crazy over use of dragons. It's clear they wanted to fill the world they created with as much stuff as they could, and they mostly did a good job, but in other areas, not so much. Still a great game overall, IMO.

I get the sense there was maybe supposed to be more to the Dragon Communion stuff and that's why there are so many dragons. I held off on getting some of those spells for a long time because the game was playing up how overusing it would have some sort of dire consequences. It made me think there was going to be some sort of permanent world state change if you purchased too many of those spells, sort of like Dark Anor Londo from DS1.

Then I caved to get Rotten Breath for Radahn, picked up a few more because I'm a completionist, and . . . nothing happened? It feels like cut content to me, somehow.

I will say I think they could have done a better job of making those dragon battles unique. They're basically all the same with different elements on their breath attacks. I killed one last night that threatened to almost be cool, but they didn't follow through on the concept (It's the Boreal dragon fight, which starts with a huge snowstorm that makes it hard to see - and then immediately dissipates once you get the fight going).

The funny thing about the Dragons is that there are only like... 7 of them, and if someone had asked me how many I fought I might have just said like 30.

@efesell: Same. Though also there's at least one respawning dragon I know about in that final area. Killed it and was annoyed to return and find it back. Not like those are actually fun fights. Generally the very large enemies in these games kinda suck, they screw with your camera and you often end up hitting air trying to attack them.

I haven’t fought many dragons as I still find them intimidating, but I did fight the one in the manor’s backyard. It ended curiously though, at about half health he just sort of…faded out? I don’t know how to explain it but it happened once before during the fight, only the second time it was just gone. Couldn’t tell if I was gonna find out more about that later or not, still have no idea 20 hours later lol

@nodima: That is intended and it's also kind of the most nonsensical dragon fight in the game.

@nodima: Oh, yeah, that one does that. Can't beat that dragon at that location, it goes elsewhere and you can find and beat it for realsies later.

I guess that's a spoiler but it seems like the sort of the thing the game should communicate better.