One thing that gets me is that Rosalind managed to create an inter-dimensional travel device in the late 1800s...
That's the one thing you can't believe?
Game » consists of 20 releases. Released Mar 26, 2013
One thing that gets me is that Rosalind managed to create an inter-dimensional travel device in the late 1800s...
That's the one thing you can't believe?
One thing that gets me is that Rosalind managed to create an inter-dimensional travel device in the late 1800s...
That's the one thing you can't believe?
No, it's one thing, not the one thing.
One thing that gets me is that Rosalind managed to create an inter-dimensional travel device in the late 1800s...
That's the one thing you can't believe?
No, it's one thing, not the one thing.
Oh, ok. Misread it.
@starvinggamer: I'm still not sure I get it. That Booker already made that decision, so is that instance supposed to be actual time travel and not just dimension travel? Everything I'm about to say is more a question than a statement. I'm not really trying to refute, more just understand.
Also, there are supposed to be infinite universes, correct? And the existence of at least 123 baptism rejections is acknowledged right? So if splits only happen where a choice is to be made, the baptism scene would become 2 timelines, and taking into account the rest of the game, not many more timelines would have been created over the course of the rapture journey, so most of the timelines would have to have been created before then? Or is it safe to assume that with infinite timelines comes infinite possibilities. Elizabeth mentions how songbird keeps stopping Booker. And some have interpreted dying as that timeline ending and then being dropped into another. Could we assume that every possibility for difference in events creates a new timeline? Even down to something so simple as to whether or not he picked up a silver eagle? To your coin example, the result is always heads, but does that mean Booker always selected tails? Again, I don't really know. It's very possible I don't understand the laws of the universe.
That stuff aside, I don't understand how drowning that one Booker would eliminate the other timelines. Especially considering he already made that choice. It might make a bit more sense to me if it somehow broke the loop and prevented timelines created out of the timeline central to the game from having Comstock and Columbia, but I don't get how it works retroactively. Unless they travel back to some sort of "Alpha" timeline. But even then, I don't see how drowning that Booker would help. Wouldn't you have to drown the Alpha Booker?
Sorry if this is a bit confusing. I'm confused so just kinda saying whatever's coming to mind.
@beachthunder: That said, it's an established fact. It's not meant to be debatable, it's part of the groundwork of the fiction. There is gravity, the language spoken is English and Lutece created an inter-dimensional device.
@yi_orange The drowning sequence is more of a symbolic, dramatized event than an actual literal event that happened for realz. It's Elizabeth changing a variable to a constant and that's how they visualize or chose to show those actions.
@winternet: So Elizabeth can just do that just because she feels like it?
edit - And if it is just supposed to be symbolic, then what of the actual event? What actually happens?
@yi_orange: Well, by the end, Elizabeth is very God-like. She has the three traits of a god (or at least something very similar to those traits): omnipresence (she can be wherever she wants), omnipotence (her power is pretty much uncountable by this point) and omniscience (the one that is more deliberately stated in the game, when she says that she sees millions of doors and what lies beyond each door. She knows it all). So, yeah, I think she can just do that.
@yi_orange: The split at the baptism is the root of the countless Comstock/Booker dual realities. From that point on, different events and occurrences would cause further splits, to the point of effectively creating infinite realities by the time the game takes place some 21 years later. Keep in mind this is BioShock Infinite's version of a multiverse, which has almost nothing to do with actual science outside of a basic inspiration point.
As far as what actually happens, well, again this is a great big guess. Just taking the ending before the credits you would assume that Elizabeth is going back to the point before the baptism and killing Booker outright, preventing the entire baptism from ever happening and ending both the Comstock and the Booker sides of the timeline. However, post-credits we have the scene with Booker waking up once again in 1893 to memories of Annabelle and a crib. The Elizabeths disappear at the end, which means the Comstock timeline has not occurred. Booker and Anna are still around, meaning the Booker timeline has continued to exist. Because of the extensive discussion of dimensional constants and variables, the logical conclusions seems to be that Elizabeth used her powers to change the accepts/rejects baptism variable to a rejects baptism constant.
who sent that telegraph?
Telegraph was sent by the Luteces. They knew what would happen and mentioned 77 because they can.
How does Comstock create Columbia? I know the Luteces created the tech, but how does Comstock get involved? He's just a normal dude who became a war hero. What qualifies him to be able to create what is likely the worlds greatest achievement- a city in the sky? Who put him in charge and why?
Unless it's explained in game and I missed it, they're asking me to overlook a very big plothole that begins this whole adventure.
Unless it's explained in game and I missed it, they're asking me to overlook a very big plothole that begins this whole adventure.
It seems that Comstock lobbied for the construction over a period of time, using his religious rhetoric and military history to convert politicians to his cause. The US Government actually builds it as a weapons platform and propaganda piece.
@starvinggamer: I'm still not sure I get it. That Booker already made that decision, so is that instance supposed to be actual time travel and not just dimension travel? Everything I'm about to say is more a question than a statement. I'm not really trying to refute, more just understand.
Also, there are supposed to be infinite universes, correct? And the existence of at least 123 baptism rejections is acknowledged right? So if splits only happen where a choice is to be made, the baptism scene would become 2 timelines, and taking into account the rest of the game, not many more timelines would have been created over the course of the rapture journey, so most of the timelines would have to have been created before then? Or is it safe to assume that with infinite timelines comes infinite possibilities. Elizabeth mentions how songbird keeps stopping Booker. And some have interpreted dying as that timeline ending and then being dropped into another. Could we assume that every possibility for difference in events creates a new timeline? Even down to something so simple as to whether or not he picked up a silver eagle? To your coin example, the result is always heads, but does that mean Booker always selected tails? Again, I don't really know. It's very possible I don't understand the laws of the universe.
That stuff aside, I don't understand how drowning that one Booker would eliminate the other timelines. Especially considering he already made that choice. It might make a bit more sense to me if it somehow broke the loop and prevented timelines created out of the timeline central to the game from having Comstock and Columbia, but I don't get how it works retroactively. Unless they travel back to some sort of "Alpha" timeline. But even then, I don't see how drowning that Booker would help. Wouldn't you have to drown the Alpha Booker?
Sorry if this is a bit confusing. I'm confused so just kinda saying whatever's coming to mind.
Awesome thread, still need to read through a bunch of it.
However, since I just finished the game I want to throw my 2 cents in here; or rather a question I don't like not knowing an answer for.
To me, the Baptism isn't the choice that creates everything - its Rosalind/Robert Lutece. Nothing is really preventing Lutece from screwing with everything again and empowering another version of Comstock. Especially if Booker can remember the story of 123 then that implies that Lutece can also, as she (its Rosalind in 123's I think) would also be reverted into a former non-godlike state (no Comstock, no Fink sabotaging the machine that creates the god-like state). Whether Comstock exists to fund Lutece or not is irrelevant, she should know everything still.
I guess, by that logic, Anna would also have all of Elizabeth's memories as well. So maybe only Booker "could" keep his memories since it was his choice - but how the hell would Elizabeth or the Luteces know that?
I'm not sure where you are coming from. Booker's choice made the events possible and Booker's choice is what allows Elizabeth to sever and fix the multi-verses where it doesn't matter what Luteces are doing. In fact it is shown multiple times the Luteces can not act to change anything (the coin toss, the telegram, multiple conversations).
Just realized that Comstock wasn't lying about fighting all those battles because Comstock IS Booker.
Unless it's explained in game and I missed it, they're asking me to overlook a very big plothole that begins this whole adventure.
It seems that Comstock lobbied for the construction over a period of time, using his religious rhetoric and military history to convert politicians to his cause. The US Government actually builds it as a weapons platform and propaganda piece.
Until she met Comstock, all Lutece had was tech. She was a brain, not a visionary. He was the one with the plan to create a flying city, a plan he brought to the US government with Lutece's experiments as proof that it could be done. Of course they agreed to give him funding, no government in their right mind wouldn't. It had nothing to do with religion or military history and everything to do with the ability to create a flying city in 1893.
The reason he was in charge is because as far as anyone knew, it was his idea from the very beginning.
Awesome thread, still need to read through a bunch of it.
However, since I just finished the game I want to throw my 2 cents in here; or rather a question I don't like not knowing an answer for.
To me, the Baptism isn't the choice that creates everything - its Rosalind/Robert Lutece. Nothing is really preventing Lutece from screwing with everything again and empowering another version of Comstock. Especially if Booker can remember the story of 123 then that implies that Lutece can also, as she (its Rosalind in 123's I think) would also be reverted into a former non-godlike state (no Comstock, no Fink sabotaging the machine that creates the god-like state). Whether Comstock exists to fund Lutece or not is irrelevant, she should know everything still.
I guess, by that logic, Anna would also have all of Elizabeth's memories as well. So maybe only Booker "could" keep his memories since it was his choice - but how the hell would Elizabeth or the Luteces know that?
Well, that just turns into a debate of how far back do you want to go to stop all of this from happening. The goal here is to stop Anna/Elizabeth from being taken away from Booker and the baptism thingy accomplishes that just fine.
@rebgav: Since you so kindly pointed it out, I thought I'd let you know that I got around to tidying up the timeline. :D
I'm not sure if this has been touched on, but I see a lot of people saying that the post-credits sequence means that "our" Booker has somehow survived, and I don't really see that. I think that the drowning essentially kills all Bookers / Comstocks that even went to the baptism, including the version of Booker that we played as. There were enough Comstocks generated from that point that Elizabeth had to kill that line at the root, even if it included some Bookers as well.
There will still be other Bookers who never even went to the the Baptism, who still ended up having Anna (or maybe Anna has already been conceived / born at this point, we don't know), and that's what the post-credits sequence shows.
On the subject of the importance of light-houses, it might be commenting on how a lot of different Bookers came to Columbia via the lighthouse, but I actually think it's a bit of meta-commentary about the Bioshock series, almost breaking the 4th wall a little bit, especially since I don't think Booker had anything to do with Rapture.
I'm not sure if this has been touched on, but I see a lot of people saying that the post-credits sequence means that "our" Booker has somehow survived, and I don't really see that. I think that the drowning essentially kills all Bookers / Comstocks that even went to the baptism, including the version of Booker that we played as. There were enough Comstocks generated from that point that Elizabeth had to kill that line at the root, even if it included some Bookers as well.
There will still be other Bookers who never even went to the the Baptism, who still ended up having Anna (or maybe Anna has already been conceived / born at this point, we don't know), and that's what the post-credits sequence shows.
On the subject of the importance of light-houses, it might be commenting on how a lot of different Bookers came to Columbia via the lighthouse, but I actually think it's a bit of meta-commentary about the Bioshock series, almost breaking the 4th wall a little bit, especially since I don't think Booker had anything to do with Rapture.
The problem I have with the whole setup is, that in a world of infinite universes based on infinite choices, there must be an infinite number of realities where the world ends. So I really fail to see how it's so important to stop this particular example.
The problem I have with the whole setup is, that in a world of infinite universes based on infinite choices, there must be an infinite number of realities where the world ends. So I really fail to see how it's so important to stop this particular example.
So because thousands of people are dying somewhere else, why bother saving thousands of people here?
When you are directly responsible for their deaths?
I'm not sure if this has been touched on, but I see a lot of people saying that the post-credits sequence means that "our" Booker has somehow survived, and I don't really see that. I think that the drowning essentially kills all Bookers / Comstocks that even went to the baptism, including the version of Booker that we played as. There were enough Comstocks generated from that point that Elizabeth had to kill that line at the root, even if it included some Bookers as well.
There will still be other Bookers who never even went to the the Baptism, who still ended up having Anna (or maybe Anna has already been conceived / born at this point, we don't know), and that's what the post-credits sequence shows.
On the subject of the importance of light-houses, it might be commenting on how a lot of different Bookers came to Columbia via the lighthouse, but I actually think it's a bit of meta-commentary about the Bioshock series, almost breaking the 4th wall a little bit, especially since I don't think Booker had anything to do with Rapture.
The problem I have with the whole setup is, that in a world of infinite universes based on infinite choices, there must be an infinite number of realities where the world ends. So I really fail to see how it's so important to stop this particular example.
You are correct except for one key fact: It matters to Anna.
The problem I have with the whole setup is, that in a world of infinite universes based on infinite choices, there must be an infinite number of realities where the world ends. So I really fail to see how it's so important to stop this particular example.
So because thousands of people are dying somewhere else, why bother saving thousands of people here?
When you are directly responsible for their deaths?
"I" am not. Booker is. In a certain number of universes.
The problem I have with the whole setup is, that in a world of infinite universes based on infinite choices, there must be an infinite number of realities where the world ends. So I really fail to see how it's so important to stop this particular example.
So because thousands of people are dying somewhere else, why bother saving thousands of people here?
When you are directly responsible for their deaths?
"I" am not. Booker is. In a certain number of universes.
I don't even know what you're saying at this point. Your problem with BioShock Infinite is that "you" don't have a personal stake in a fictional story, which is also true for any other work of fiction.
The problem I have with the whole setup is, that in a world of infinite universes based on infinite choices, there must be an infinite number of realities where the world ends. So I really fail to see how it's so important to stop this particular example.
So because thousands of people are dying somewhere else, why bother saving thousands of people here?
When you are directly responsible for their deaths?
"I" am not. Booker is. In a certain number of universes.
I don't even know what you're saying at this point. Your problem with BioShock Infinite is that "you" don't have a personal stake in a fictional story, which is also true for any other work of fiction.
I'm just saying that a world of infinite universes of inifinite possibilites are kind of detrimental to dramatic weight. I just had a feeling that nothing really mattered in the end.
the multiple universes stuff in this game was cool, seemed like a less complex version of Neal Stephenson's Anathem, or some of the concepts there.
I'm glad someone besides me thought of this comparison. I have to go read that book again.
Something I've been thinking - wouldn't everyone constantly suffer from inter-dimensional-cognitive-dissonance (ie. flickering in and out of existence), given that in some reality, everyone would already be dead or unborn? Consider a reality where there is a Rosalind; in that reality Rosalind should be affected by inter-dimensional-cognitive-dissonance because she would not exist in a Robert reality (and vice-versa). Basically, each one of them would have conflicting thoughts of simultaneously being alive an unborn. Obviously, this would also apply for everyone else's unborn male or female counterparts too (unless you happened to be a part of a male-female twin).
@beachthunder: I believe that has something to do with the tears. Correct me if I'm wrong, but every time you encountered soldiers doing the woogy shuffle wasn't it immediately after Elizabeth pulled herself and Booker into another dimension by overlapping it over the original?
@starvinggamer: Hm, I suppose that might be the case, fair enough.
How is contemporary music finding its way to Columbia?
Fink's brother hears modern music through the tears and rewrites it in a manner more appropriate for the times, selling it as "The music of tomorrow... today!" He becomes wildly successful, and as a result inspires his brother to do the same thing with technology.
@StarvingGamer Whoops. Sorry, I got that part. I meant to add, how are the tears opening into an alternate universe that is also in the future?
I thought time would remain constant in every universe, so how, or why, are tears opening up in 1966?
The tears are opening as a result of the experiments performed by Comstock and the Luteces. And remember, while time may remain constant between multiverses, the year 1966 is a man-made concept. Whether or not it is 1966 is determined by the people living in that universe.
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