I never played Diablo 1 & 2 (didn't have a decent enough PC way-back-when; I tried them later, but they were just too shabby-looking at then). Recently I got TitanQuest as a pack-in game with the German Gamestar magazine. I played it for a long session (and promptly had my fill).
 
It just made me think, all the 'player skill' stuff like active dodging and kiting and casting on the move. That'd be so much quicker and more natural with dualstick controls. I figure Diablo classes won't have that many skills. I'm assuming that'll be between 8-12 active skills per class. That would easily fit on a gamepad with a mutator or two.
 
Wadd'ya think? Could dualstick shooter controls be better suited for lootfest click 'n kills like Diablo III? From where I'm sitting - absolutely. It might take some getting used to working with mutators, but damn execution would come so much more naturally. Stressfree kiting and dodging and casting on the move.
 
  

Why on earth would they be?

I don't really understand this question.  Also, I haven't played Diablo 3.

I don't really understand this question.  Also, I haven't played Diablo 3.

The things that you could pull off in diablo 2 just wouldn't be quick and accurate enough for a dualstick set up. You need really really fast mouse movements to teleport efficiently and avoid dieing when you teleport into a crowd of enemies. Sometimes as soon you teleport you want to cast a quick spell like meteor or holy hammers and quickly get out of that area, all while keeping tabs on your hp ready to pop a potion. If diablo 3 is not as quick as diablo 2 than it could possibly be pulled off, however a lot of the appeal of the game would be lost for me.

The things that you could pull off in diablo 2 just wouldn't be quick and accurate enough for a dualstick set up. You need really really fast mouse movements to teleport efficiently and avoid dieing when you teleport into a crowd of enemies. Sometimes as soon you teleport you want to cast a quick spell like meteor or holy hammers and quickly get out of that area, all while keeping tabs on your hp ready to pop a potion. If diablo 3 is not as quick as diablo 2 than it could possibly be pulled off, however a lot of the appeal of the game would be lost for me.

I stopped reading at "I never played Diablo 1 & 2."

control wise I don't think it should be a problem.

With potions on a 2min cooldown (not sure if final release will be the same) and mobs dropping health orbs, the 11112223233444 spam to chug potions is gone already.

like DA:O technically you could filled your entire hotbar with spells/skills, but realistically you always had the buffs on and sticking with only 3-4 skills (you could map 6 skills to the console face buttons?) most of the time.

I am just curious whether they should implement some form of blocking in Diablo3. The couple of isometric action game on consoles (Deathspank, Bastion) had blocking in it and it worked kinda well.

as for Blizzard making a console game? It is inevitable.

*enable busniess schmuck mode*

Knowing how big Blizz is combined with their resources, the are opportunity cost of forgoing the console market is too high to ignore.

I was about to write a lengthy post about why this is a stupid idea, but completely changing what defines diablo is so absurd that it doesn't deserve a lengthy post.

So I will just leave it with "NO"

edit: and if you are talking about the console version, then who cares. No fan of this genre would play this game on a console so the control scheme doesn't really matter.

Lol, absolutely not. It's very clear that you haven't played Diablo II at a high level if the thought even crossed your mind.

@Seppli: But the analog isn't fine enough to target specific distances fast enough. Have you seen how accurately people can aim a mouse cursor? It's pretty crazy. A joystick wouldn't be able to keep up. For illustration, have you ever had to navigate a menu with a cursor controlled by a joystick? It's not nearly as fast as using a mouse, and that's the kind of targeting you have to do for teleports and leaps and such, which have variable length in Diablo. You have to target very specific points on a screen, where analog sticks are mostly good for choosing a direction.

The facebuttons would have to be mutators for the shoulderbuttons though. More like mutator toggles.

@Seppli: But the analog isn't fine enough to target specific distances fast enough. Have you seen how accurately people can aim a mouse cursor? It's pretty crazy. A joystick wouldn't be able to keep up. For illustration, have you ever had to navigate a menu with a cursor controlled by a joystick? It's not nearly as fast as using a mouse, and that's the kind of targeting you have to do for teleports and leaps and such, which have variable length in Diablo. You have to target very specific points on a screen, where analog sticks are mostly good for choosing a direction.

@Scrawnto said:

@Seppli: But the analog isn't fine enough to target specific distances fast enough. Have you seen how accurately people can aim a mouse cursor? It's pretty crazy. A joystick wouldn't be able to keep up. For illustration, have you ever had to navigate a menu with a cursor controlled by a joystick? It's not nearly as fast as using a mouse, and that's the kind of targeting you have to do for teleports and leaps and such, which have variable length in Diablo. You have to target very specific points on a screen, where analog sticks are mostly good for choosing a direction.

I can shoot pretty tiny and fast moving particles in Geometry Wars across the screen. Of course there I can keep on shooting and shooting. So there would have to be some sort of 'laser sight line' aiming aid projected on the ground.  Even most AoE's could do easily without a cursor. Point-blank AoE and Cone AoE - no problem.  The only problem, which needs solving, is the lack of sufficient convenient hotkeys for dualstick shooter controls. Only the shoulder buttons are placed suitably. There are solutions though. Pretty certain toggling skillsets via facebuttons would work just fine. And autoattack on flicking the right stick.

@Seppli said:

@Scrawnto said:

@Seppli: But the analog isn't fine enough to target specific distances fast enough. Have you seen how accurately people can aim a mouse cursor? It's pretty crazy. A joystick wouldn't be able to keep up. For illustration, have you ever had to navigate a menu with a cursor controlled by a joystick? It's not nearly as fast as using a mouse, and that's the kind of targeting you have to do for teleports and leaps and such, which have variable length in Diablo. You have to target very specific points on a screen, where analog sticks are mostly good for choosing a direction.

I can shoot pretty tiny and fast moving particles in Geometry Wars across the screen. Of course there I can keep on shooting and shooting. So there would have to be some sort of 'laser sight line' aiming aid projected on the ground.  Even most AoE's could do easily without a cursor. Point-blank AoE and Cone AoE - no problem.  The only problem, which needs solving, is the lack of sufficient convenient hotkeys for dualstick shooter controls. Only the shoulder buttons are placed suitably. There are solutions though. Pretty certain toggling skillsets via facebuttons would work just fine. And autoattack on flicking the right stick.

God...  Please...stop talking. You even admitted to never playing a Diablo game, so you can't even fathom the amount of precision a mouse gives you for your abilities. No doubt it would be playable on a controller, but no not even close to the KB + M.

I voted yes just cause I thought nobody else would and also cause I recently discovered that using my controller while laying on my back is far more enjoyable than hunching over the god damned keboard for my pc games, but I know it`s the wrong answer.

You would never be able to move the cursor fast enough. Imagine if there was cross-platform Halo multiplayer between Xbox and PC. The PC players would be laughing all the way to the... whatever the end goal in Halo multiplayer is.

It may work for a simple character build that used no targeted abilities, but I can't think of a single class like that in D2 except maybe a chargeadin? It's true that D3 will have fewer active abilities, I believe that under the current build each character can select 3 passive and 6 active abilities at a time, but precision has always been the real issue. It's the same reason why every RTS made for console feels either incredibly dumbed down or broken as fuck.

EDIT: There's a reason why snap-to-targeting in Call of Duty revolutionized console shooter controls yet has never been adopted by the series on PC.

How does 'not having played Diablo 1 & 2' translate in 'lacking skill with KB&M'? You just don't want to think about the possibilty. Taking the easy way out. Attacking the messenger instead of tackling the message. Argumentative cripple coward. Just think of dualstick shooters. You wouldn't be able to play a dualstick shooter with KB&M halfway as well as with a gamepad. Hence dualstick shooter-like controls are superior for movement and split-second quick aiming in 2D-top-down games. Precision is definitely high enough, especially taking design measures into account to aid with it.

You would never be able to move the cursor fast enough. Imagine if there was cross-platform Halo multiplayer between Xbox and PC. The PC players would be laughing all the way to the... whatever the end goal in Halo multiplayer is.

It may work for a simple character build that used no targeted abilities, but I can't think of a single class like that in D2 except maybe a chargeadin? It's true that D3 will have fewer active abilities, I believe that under the current build each character can select 3 passive and 6 active abilities at a time, but precision has always been the real issue. It's the same reason why every RTS made for console feels either incredibly dumbed down or broken as fuck.

You would never be able to move the cursor fast enough. Imagine if there was cross-platform Halo multiplayer between Xbox and PC. The PC players would be laughing all the way to the... whatever the end goal in Halo multiplayer is.

It may work for a simple character build that used no targeted abilities, but I can't think of a single class like that in D2 except maybe a chargeadin? It's true that D3 will have fewer active abilities, I believe that under the current build each character can select 3 passive and 6 active abilities at a time, but precision has always been the real issue. It's the same reason why every RTS made for console feels either incredibly dumbed down or broken as fuck.

@Seppli said:

How does 'not having played Diablo 1 & 2' translate in 'lacking skill with KB&M'? You just don't want to think about the possibilty. Taking the easy way out. Attacking the messenger instead of tackling the message. Argumentative cripple coward. Just think of dualstick shooters. You wouldn't be able to play a dualstick shooter with KB&M halfway as well as with a gamepad. Hence dualstick shooter-like controls are superior for movement and split-second quick aiming in 2D-top-down games. Precision is definitely high enough, especially taking design measures into account to aid with it.

Because you continue to talk about top-down dual stick shooters....  That is so off-base an equally disjointed argument could be that since you can play JRPGs with a controller to select spells from a menu you can play Diablo 1 and 2 with the same controller.

@StarvingGamer said:

You would never be able to move the cursor fast enough. Imagine if there was cross-platform Halo multiplayer between Xbox and PC. The PC players would be laughing all the way to the... whatever the end goal in Halo multiplayer is.

It may work for a simple character build that used no targeted abilities, but I can't think of a single class like that in D2 except maybe a chargeadin? It's true that D3 will have fewer active abilities, I believe that under the current build each character can select 3 passive and 6 active abilities at a time, but precision has always been the real issue. It's the same reason why every RTS made for console feels either incredibly dumbed down or broken as fuck.

There is no cursor. There is dualstick shooter controls. Did you never play a modern dualstick shooter? Like Super Stardust HD or Geometry Wars?

@StarvingGamer said:

You would never be able to move the cursor fast enough. Imagine if there was cross-platform Halo multiplayer between Xbox and PC. The PC players would be laughing all the way to the... whatever the end goal in Halo multiplayer is.

It may work for a simple character build that used no targeted abilities, but I can't think of a single class like that in D2 except maybe a chargeadin? It's true that D3 will have fewer active abilities, I believe that under the current build each character can select 3 passive and 6 active abilities at a time, but precision has always been the real issue. It's the same reason why every RTS made for console feels either incredibly dumbed down or broken as fuck.

But didn't you listen to him?  Your argument is destroyed since you can launch a hundred bullets from a ship in a top-down shooter. That means it is accurate enough. So stop being a pessimistic swine.

A simple 'laser sight like' aiming aid projected from the character at all times would circumvent the lack of that. Targeted spells could be solved by holding down the button and see a cross-line move quickly along the target line - just release button at the right range. Voila.   A far from clumsy solution.

@Seppli said:

@StarvingGamer said:

You would never be able to move the cursor fast enough. Imagine if there was cross-platform Halo multiplayer between Xbox and PC. The PC players would be laughing all the way to the... whatever the end goal in Halo multiplayer is.

It may work for a simple character build that used no targeted abilities, but I can't think of a single class like that in D2 except maybe a chargeadin? It's true that D3 will have fewer active abilities, I believe that under the current build each character can select 3 passive and 6 active abilities at a time, but precision has always been the real issue. It's the same reason why every RTS made for console feels either incredibly dumbed down or broken as fuck.

There is no cursor. There is dualstick shooter controls. Did you never play a modern dualstick shooter? Like Super Stardust HD or Geometry Wars?

But you have abilities and spells that you place on screen. There would be a cursor eventually.  And no AoE cones aren't the same thing...

@Doctorchimp said:

@Seppli said:

@StarvingGamer said:

You would never be able to move the cursor fast enough. Imagine if there was cross-platform Halo multiplayer between Xbox and PC. The PC players would be laughing all the way to the... whatever the end goal in Halo multiplayer is.

It may work for a simple character build that used no targeted abilities, but I can't think of a single class like that in D2 except maybe a chargeadin? It's true that D3 will have fewer active abilities, I believe that under the current build each character can select 3 passive and 6 active abilities at a time, but precision has always been the real issue. It's the same reason why every RTS made for console feels either incredibly dumbed down or broken as fuck.

There is no cursor. There is dualstick shooter controls. Did you never play a modern dualstick shooter? Like Super Stardust HD or Geometry Wars?

But you have abilities and spells that you place on screen. There would be a cursor eventually.  And no AoE cones aren't the same thing...

Yeah - targeted AoE you'll drag the reticule from under your character. It all depends on the responsiveness, it could be lightning quick if developers would believe we had the dexteriy to deal with it. Most don't.

@Seppli said:

@StarvingGamer said:

You would never be able to move the cursor fast enough. Imagine if there was cross-platform Halo multiplayer between Xbox and PC. The PC players would be laughing all the way to the... whatever the end goal in Halo multiplayer is.

It may work for a simple character build that used no targeted abilities, but I can't think of a single class like that in D2 except maybe a chargeadin? It's true that D3 will have fewer active abilities, I believe that under the current build each character can select 3 passive and 6 active abilities at a time, but precision has always been the real issue. It's the same reason why every RTS made for console feels either incredibly dumbed down or broken as fuck.

There is no cursor. There is dualstick shooter controls. Did you never play a modern dualstick shooter? Like Super Stardust HD or Geometry Wars?

Yes I have, I love dual stick shooters starting with Everyday Shooter. I even buy them for iPad even though the interface is fucking terrible. But the cursor in D3 is not being used simply for directionality, it is also being used for range. Many spells and abilities in Diablo games require you to determine precisely which spot on the screen you want the effect to land. It is true you could add an analog-controlled cursor for these types of spells, but you will never be able to achieve the combination of speed and precision that a mouse cursor provides in these situations. The precision required really is more akin to a game like Counter Strike as opposed to any dual stick shooter, and I certainly hope you're not suggesting that dual analog controls would be just as good for CS as mouse & keyboard.

@Seppli said:

@StarvingGamer said:

You would never be able to move the cursor fast enough. Imagine if there was cross-platform Halo multiplayer between Xbox and PC. The PC players would be laughing all the way to the... whatever the end goal in Halo multiplayer is.

It may work for a simple character build that used no targeted abilities, but I can't think of a single class like that in D2 except maybe a chargeadin? It's true that D3 will have fewer active abilities, I believe that under the current build each character can select 3 passive and 6 active abilities at a time, but precision has always been the real issue. It's the same reason why every RTS made for console feels either incredibly dumbed down or broken as fuck.

There is no cursor. There is dualstick shooter controls. Did you never play a modern dualstick shooter? Like Super Stardust HD or Geometry Wars?

Yes I have, I love dual stick shooters starting with Everyday Shooter. I even buy them for iPad even though the interface is fucking terrible. But the cursor in D3 is not being used simply for directionality, it is also being used for range. Many spells and abilities in Diablo games require you to determine precisely which spot on the screen you want the effect to land. It is true you could add an analog-controlled cursor for these types of spells, but you will never be able to achieve the combination of speed and precision that a mouse cursor provides in these situations. The precision required really is more akin to a game like Counter Strike as opposed to any dual stick shooter, and I certainly hope you're not suggesting that dual analog controls would be just as good for CS as mouse & keyboard.

A simple 'laser sight like' aiming aid projected from the character at all times would circumvent the lack of that. Targeted spells could be solved by holding down the button and see a cross-line move quickly along the target line - just release button at the right range. Voila.   A far from clumsy solution.

lol

@Seppli said:

@Doctorchimp said:

@Seppli said:

@StarvingGamer said:

You would never be able to move the cursor fast enough. Imagine if there was cross-platform Halo multiplayer between Xbox and PC. The PC players would be laughing all the way to the... whatever the end goal in Halo multiplayer is.

It may work for a simple character build that used no targeted abilities, but I can't think of a single class like that in D2 except maybe a chargeadin? It's true that D3 will have fewer active abilities, I believe that under the current build each character can select 3 passive and 6 active abilities at a time, but precision has always been the real issue. It's the same reason why every RTS made for console feels either incredibly dumbed down or broken as fuck.

There is no cursor. There is dualstick shooter controls. Did you never play a modern dualstick shooter? Like Super Stardust HD or Geometry Wars?

But you have abilities and spells that you place on screen. There would be a cursor eventually.  And no AoE cones aren't the same thing...

Yeah - targeted AoE you'll drag the reticule from under your character. It all depends on the responsiveness, it could be lightning quick if developers would believe we had the dexteriy to deal with it. Most don't.

Guess what....  It's lightning quick with a mouse. So I guess you just admitted the controller isn't as good as the controller...

@Seppli said:

@StarvingGamer said:

You would never be able to move the cursor fast enough. Imagine if there was cross-platform Halo multiplayer between Xbox and PC. The PC players would be laughing all the way to the... whatever the end goal in Halo multiplayer is.

It may work for a simple character build that used no targeted abilities, but I can't think of a single class like that in D2 except maybe a chargeadin? It's true that D3 will have fewer active abilities, I believe that under the current build each character can select 3 passive and 6 active abilities at a time, but precision has always been the real issue. It's the same reason why every RTS made for console feels either incredibly dumbed down or broken as fuck.

There is no cursor. There is dualstick shooter controls. Did you never play a modern dualstick shooter? Like Super Stardust HD or Geometry Wars?

Yes I have, I love dual stick shooters starting with Everyday Shooter. I even buy them for iPad even though the interface is fucking terrible. But the cursor in D3 is not being used simply for directionality, it is also being used for range. Many spells and abilities in Diablo games require you to determine precisely which spot on the screen you want the effect to land. It is true you could add an analog-controlled cursor for these types of spells, but you will never be able to achieve the combination of speed and precision that a mouse cursor provides in these situations. The precision required really is more akin to a game like Counter Strike as opposed to any dual stick shooter, and I certainly hope you're not suggesting that dual analog controls would be just as good for CS as mouse & keyboard.

@Seppli: As someone who sunk thousands of hours into Diablo 2, with my favorite classes being fire wall sorc (before the nerfs), charged bolt sorc, javazon and bowazon (all range), I never had any issues with kiting or casting on the run. And I don't know if you would consider teleport for the sorc an active dodging skill but I can't imagine having to precisely teleport through hordes of enemies using an analog stick.

i will admit, Dualstick shooter to a loot driven dungeon hack&slash game would be fun to play. But to put it in D3, Blizz have to redesign how attacking works. 1click-per-mob don't exactly translate well to how dualstick shooter scheme.

I provided a design solution for range (one of many). 'Hold n Release' the button. With a decent GUI, that would work perfectly. And likely even more quickly than the average KB&M player could. And you could do so on the move. While kiting.  Close your eyes and share my dream! DREAM DAMMIT!

@Seppli said:

@StarvingGamer said:

@Seppli said:

@StarvingGamer said:

You would never be able to move the cursor fast enough. Imagine if there was cross-platform Halo multiplayer between Xbox and PC. The PC players would be laughing all the way to the... whatever the end goal in Halo multiplayer is.

It may work for a simple character build that used no targeted abilities, but I can't think of a single class like that in D2 except maybe a chargeadin? It's true that D3 will have fewer active abilities, I believe that under the current build each character can select 3 passive and 6 active abilities at a time, but precision has always been the real issue. It's the same reason why every RTS made for console feels either incredibly dumbed down or broken as fuck.

There is no cursor. There is dualstick shooter controls. Did you never play a modern dualstick shooter? Like Super Stardust HD or Geometry Wars?

Yes I have, I love dual stick shooters starting with Everyday Shooter. I even buy them for iPad even though the interface is fucking terrible. But the cursor in D3 is not being used simply for directionality, it is also being used for range. Many spells and abilities in Diablo games require you to determine precisely which spot on the screen you want the effect to land. It is true you could add an analog-controlled cursor for these types of spells, but you will never be able to achieve the combination of speed and precision that a mouse cursor provides in these situations. The precision required really is more akin to a game like Counter Strike as opposed to any dual stick shooter, and I certainly hope you're not suggesting that dual analog controls would be just as good for CS as mouse & keyboard.

I provided a design solution for range (one of many). 'Hold n Release' the button. With a decent GUI, that would work perfectly. And likely even more quickly than the average KB&M player could. And you could do so on the move. While kiting. Which you wouldn't be able to with classic KB&M diablo controls. Close your eyes and share my dream! DREAM DAMMIT!

If you can honestly say that you believe "Hold n Release" would be just as accurate in a game like Counter Strike as mouse & keyboard then this conversation has reached its conclusion. And as I said in my above post, I can already do all the kiting I want to with mouse & keyboard so basically, you're trying so solve a problem that doesn't exist.

@Seppli said:

@StarvingGamer said:

@Seppli said:

@StarvingGamer said:

You would never be able to move the cursor fast enough. Imagine if there was cross-platform Halo multiplayer between Xbox and PC. The PC players would be laughing all the way to the... whatever the end goal in Halo multiplayer is.

It may work for a simple character build that used no targeted abilities, but I can't think of a single class like that in D2 except maybe a chargeadin? It's true that D3 will have fewer active abilities, I believe that under the current build each character can select 3 passive and 6 active abilities at a time, but precision has always been the real issue. It's the same reason why every RTS made for console feels either incredibly dumbed down or broken as fuck.

There is no cursor. There is dualstick shooter controls. Did you never play a modern dualstick shooter? Like Super Stardust HD or Geometry Wars?

Yes I have, I love dual stick shooters starting with Everyday Shooter. I even buy them for iPad even though the interface is fucking terrible. But the cursor in D3 is not being used simply for directionality, it is also being used for range. Many spells and abilities in Diablo games require you to determine precisely which spot on the screen you want the effect to land. It is true you could add an analog-controlled cursor for these types of spells, but you will never be able to achieve the combination of speed and precision that a mouse cursor provides in these situations. The precision required really is more akin to a game like Counter Strike as opposed to any dual stick shooter, and I certainly hope you're not suggesting that dual analog controls would be just as good for CS as mouse & keyboard.

I provided a design solution for range (one of many). 'Hold n Release' the button. With a decent GUI, that would work perfectly. And likely even more quickly than the average KB&M player could. And you could do so on the move. While kiting. Which you wouldn't be able to with classic KB&M diablo controls. Close your eyes and share my dream! DREAM DAMMIT!

If you can honestly say that you believe "Hold n Release" would be just as accurate in a game like Counter Strike as mouse & keyboard then this conversation has reached its conclusion. And as I said in my above post, I can already do all the kiting I want to with mouse & keyboard so basically, you're trying so solve a problem that doesn't exist.

@Seppli said:

@Scrawnto said:

@Seppli: But the analog isn't fine enough to target specific distances fast enough. Have you seen how accurately people can aim a mouse cursor? It's pretty crazy. A joystick wouldn't be able to keep up. For illustration, have you ever had to navigate a menu with a cursor controlled by a joystick? It's not nearly as fast as using a mouse, and that's the kind of targeting you have to do for teleports and leaps and such, which have variable length in Diablo. You have to target very specific points on a screen, where analog sticks are mostly good for choosing a direction.

I can shoot pretty tiny and fast moving particles in Geometry Wars across the screen. Of course there I can keep on shooting and shooting. So there would have to be some sort of 'laser sight line' aiming aid projected on the ground. Even most AoE's could do easily without a cursor. Point-blank AoE and Cone AoE - no problem. The only problem, which needs solving, is the lack of sufficient convenient hotkeys for dualstick shooter controls. Only the shoulder buttons are placed suitably. There are solutions though. Pretty certain toggling skillsets via facebuttons would work just fine. And autoattack on flicking the right stick.

That's just it; a laser sight line indicates only direction, not distance. The same goes for cones and point blank. None of those make sense for jumping in and out of groups, where specific placement, including distance matter, and those kind of movement techniques are pretty central to Diablo's style of play. You could make all leaps/teleports/etc. have a fixed length ala dodge rolls in Bastion, but that would be a new limit imposed on the game. Sure, you could emulate that kind of control by slowing things down a bit and giving the player a joystick controlled cursor (Which will never be as accurate as a mouse, or else people would navigate the web with thumbsticks more), but that would really kill the pacing that long time fans want. If they ever make a console version, they can do what they want, but I want my PC Diablo fast and furious with a mouse and keyboard.

@Seppli said:

@StarvingGamer: Solution 1 : Tap facebutton to toggle shoulderbuttons to skillset with teleport. Hold teleport shoulderbutton. Reticule appears under characters feet. Drag to location. Release button. Teleport success. Solution 2 : Tap facebutton to toggle shoulderbuttons to skillset with teleport. Hold teleport shoulderbutton. A intersecting line with your aim assist laser sight line shoots along the line. Release button at appropriate range. Teleport success. (Imagine a lasersight like line projected from your character to where you look with the second stick. Similarly to a golf-game swingmeter a intersecting line shoots out along that line. All you need to do is to get the timing down - It would be faster than using a cursor with a mouse. Effortless and player-skillbased.)

Hold and release are 2 separate command inputs, you are already making every teleport take twice as long MINIMUM of a teleport in Diablo 3. I can, with sufficient accuracy, hit ~3 target areas within a second using keyboard and mouse, or ~5 target areas with a significant drop in accuracy. Pick up a controller and think about what you're suggesting. Could you accomplish the same?

@Seppli said:

@StarvingGamer said:

@Seppli said:

@StarvingGamer said:

@Seppli said:

@StarvingGamer said:

You would never be able to move the cursor fast enough. Imagine if there was cross-platform Halo multiplayer between Xbox and PC. The PC players would be laughing all the way to the... whatever the end goal in Halo multiplayer is.

It may work for a simple character build that used no targeted abilities, but I can't think of a single class like that in D2 except maybe a chargeadin? It's true that D3 will have fewer active abilities, I believe that under the current build each character can select 3 passive and 6 active abilities at a time, but precision has always been the real issue. It's the same reason why every RTS made for console feels either incredibly dumbed down or broken as fuck.

There is no cursor. There is dualstick shooter controls. Did you never play a modern dualstick shooter? Like Super Stardust HD or Geometry Wars?

Yes I have, I love dual stick shooters starting with Everyday Shooter. I even buy them for iPad even though the interface is fucking terrible. But the cursor in D3 is not being used simply for directionality, it is also being used for range. Many spells and abilities in Diablo games require you to determine precisely which spot on the screen you want the effect to land. It is true you could add an analog-controlled cursor for these types of spells, but you will never be able to achieve the combination of speed and precision that a mouse cursor provides in these situations. The precision required really is more akin to a game like Counter Strike as opposed to any dual stick shooter, and I certainly hope you're not suggesting that dual analog controls would be just as good for CS as mouse & keyboard.

I provided a design solution for range (one of many). 'Hold n Release' the button. With a decent GUI, that would work perfectly. And likely even more quickly than the average KB&M player could. And you could do so on the move. While kiting. Which you wouldn't be able to with classic KB&M diablo controls. Close your eyes and share my dream! DREAM DAMMIT!

If you can honestly say that you believe "Hold n Release" would be just as accurate in a game like Counter Strike as mouse & keyboard then this conversation has reached its conclusion. And as I said in my above post, I can already do all the kiting I want to with mouse & keyboard so basically, you're trying so solve a problem that doesn't exist.

It does on consoles. And no, you cannot kite as you would with dualstick shooter controls. It'd be a whole other level of kiting.

You're ignoring my Counter Strike comparison. That's the crux of this entire argument.

@Seppli said:

@StarvingGamer: Solution 1 : Tap facebutton to toggle shoulderbuttons to skillset with teleport. Hold teleport shoulderbutton. Reticule appears under characters feet. Drag to location. Release button. Teleport success. Solution 2 : Tap facebutton to toggle shoulderbuttons to skillset with teleport. Hold teleport shoulderbutton. A intersecting line with your aim assist laser sight line shoots along the line. Release button at appropriate range. Teleport success. (Imagine a lasersight like line projected from your character to where you look with the second stick. Similarly to a golf-game swingmeter a intersecting line shoots out along that line. All you need to do is to get the timing down - It would be faster than using a cursor with a mouse. Effortless and player-skillbased.)

Hold and release are 2 separate command inputs, you are already making every teleport take twice as long MINIMUM of a teleport in Diablo 3. I can, with sufficient accuracy, hit ~3 target areas within a second using keyboard and mouse, or ~5 target areas with a significant drop in accuracy. Pick up a controller and think about what you're suggesting. Could you accomplish the same?

@StarvingGamer:   Solution 1 : Tap facebutton to toggle shoulderbuttons to skillset with teleport. Hold teleport shoulderbutton. Reticule appears under characters feet. Drag to location. Release button. Teleport success. Solution 2 : Tap facebutton to toggle shoulderbuttons to skillset with teleport. Hold teleport shoulderbutton. A intersecting line with your aim assist laser sight line shoots along the line. Release button at appropriate range. Teleport success. (Imagine a lasersight like line projected from your character to where you look with the second stick. Similarly to a golf-game swingmeter a intersecting line shoots out along that line. All you need to do is to get the timing down - It would be faster than using a cursor with a mouse. Effortless and player-skillbased.)

@StarvingGamer: Or even a web-browsing comparison. Would someone navigate the web with thumbsticks replacing the mouse? No! The accuracy and speed loss would be horrible. Sure you could do a hold and release thing to time the execution of a click moving along a "laser sight", but it would be so inaccurate and slow, even in something as relatively relaxed as web-browsing.

@Seppli: The marker moving along the line is a timing thing, which simply wouldn't work for short and long distance actions. With a mouse, I simply move a distance that corresponds to the distance I want in the game. It's a subconscious thing. Hell, people have trouble timing "active reloads" in Gears of War. Targeting moves like that would be preposterous. If you missed the distance you wanted, you would waste your attack, or you would have to wait for the marker to bounce back or something. With a mouse you can track things moving away or towards you. There are so many problems with your idea, I can't even list them all.

@Seppli said:

@StarvingGamer said:

@Seppli said:

@StarvingGamer said:

@Seppli said:

@StarvingGamer said:

You would never be able to move the cursor fast enough. Imagine if there was cross-platform Halo multiplayer between Xbox and PC. The PC players would be laughing all the way to the... whatever the end goal in Halo multiplayer is.

It may work for a simple character build that used no targeted abilities, but I can't think of a single class like that in D2 except maybe a chargeadin? It's true that D3 will have fewer active abilities, I believe that under the current build each character can select 3 passive and 6 active abilities at a time, but precision has always been the real issue. It's the same reason why every RTS made for console feels either incredibly dumbed down or broken as fuck.

There is no cursor. There is dualstick shooter controls. Did you never play a modern dualstick shooter? Like Super Stardust HD or Geometry Wars?

Yes I have, I love dual stick shooters starting with Everyday Shooter. I even buy them for iPad even though the interface is fucking terrible. But the cursor in D3 is not being used simply for directionality, it is also being used for range. Many spells and abilities in Diablo games require you to determine precisely which spot on the screen you want the effect to land. It is true you could add an analog-controlled cursor for these types of spells, but you will never be able to achieve the combination of speed and precision that a mouse cursor provides in these situations. The precision required really is more akin to a game like Counter Strike as opposed to any dual stick shooter, and I certainly hope you're not suggesting that dual analog controls would be just as good for CS as mouse & keyboard.

I provided a design solution for range (one of many). 'Hold n Release' the button. With a decent GUI, that would work perfectly. And likely even more quickly than the average KB&M player could. And you could do so on the move. While kiting. Which you wouldn't be able to with classic KB&M diablo controls. Close your eyes and share my dream! DREAM DAMMIT!

If you can honestly say that you believe "Hold n Release" would be just as accurate in a game like Counter Strike as mouse & keyboard then this conversation has reached its conclusion. And as I said in my above post, I can already do all the kiting I want to with mouse & keyboard so basically, you're trying so solve a problem that doesn't exist.

It does on consoles. And no, you cannot kite as you would with dualstick shooter controls. It'd be a whole other level of kiting.

You're ignoring my Counter Strike comparison. That's the crux of this entire argument.

Saying it would feel more natural depends entirely on what the person in control is used to. I make no claim to understand what exactly a method of input feeling 'organic' is. Maybe for you it is a better way, but apparently for 91.7% of people it isn't.

@Scrawnto said:

@StarvingGamer: Or even a web-browsing comparison. Would someone navigate the web with thumbsticks replacing the mouse? No! The accuracy and speed loss would be horrible. Sure you could do a hold and release thing to time the execution of a click moving along a "laser sight", but it would be so inaccurate and slow, even in something as relatively relaxed as web-browsing.

That's an amazingly good point.

@Seppli: You're still ignoring my Counter Strike comparison which means you either have no counter argument or are just trolling. It's probably the latter which makes me an idiot for falling for it. All well, it's not like I have anything better to do when I'm at work.

@StarvingGamer: Or even a web-browsing comparison. Would someone navigate the web with thumbsticks replacing the mouse? No! The accuracy and speed loss would be horrible. Sure you could do a hold and release thing to time the execution of a click moving along a "laser sight", but it would be so inaccurate and slow, even in something as relatively relaxed as web-browsing.