Crossdressing Cloud is sexy Cloud. Here's hoping that those who take issue with it won't ruin it for everyone else.

As for Barret, I'm not gonna weigh in on that one...

I really liked Barrett. He's gone through a lot of shit - probably more than anyone else of the main characters. His attitude I always took more as an Asuka Langley kind of emotional shielding.
But of course you could improve on his (and everyone else's) demeanor quite a bit - and I hope they do. This game will be fully voiced after all, right? They basically have to redo all the writing anyway and tailor it in a way that it fits both the much more fledged out appearance of the characters and the "times" in general. That isn't to say that they won't fuck it up. :/

@bananasfoster: I totally agree with you and didn't intend to imply that anyone involved was incompetent or willfully ignorant. My impression of game localization before the late PS1 era is that it wasn't generally given enough manpower or time to consider cultural sensitivity outside of broad religious and sexual norms, and things would as a consequence fall through the cracks. And I really appreciated your point about considering the perspectives of other countries on American history, especially given our own past failings in exported media.

The thing about the characters in Final Fantasy VII is that they are very much stereotypical Japanese archetypes and I don't think that played out quite as apparently to people when FFVII was the first JRPG they ever played.

Japanese theatre traditions are very different from western theatre traditions. Japanese theatre has it's roots in melodrama. That is to say, they have roots in having defined character archetypes like what would happen in, say, comedia del arte. This is why so many anime have characters that are so simple. You dress them up in different costumes, put them in different scenarios, and have them interact differently, but their underlying characters are frequently set in stone. "The princess", "The stoic", "The fool", "The carefree", "the sexy vamp" etc.

Barett was very much "the fool". I don't imagine there will be much subtlety added if they do the game again as it was previously written.

What is really of interest is just how much the game leaned away from comedy in the later incarnations in favor of trying to be "cool" at all costs. The Sakaguchi FF games always had comedy breaks that were typically done in an anime-esque style of comedy. If the new games takes a realistic tone, I'm curious to know how some of those comedic scenes will play out.

A cultural reason that he's an angry tough guy who cusses a bunch? What on Earth are you talking about? And Cid is a rather curmudgeonly fellow himself. I remember thinking he was way more of an angry guy than Barrett.

I haven't played the game in ages, so I can't speak to any specific lines (and I don't doubt there are plenty of terrible lines for everyone), but I'm not seeing what's so problematic with his personality as a whole.

Sorry, I'm still binging the E3 liveshow and up way past my bedtime :)

I think that everyone in this thread loves the game as a whole. Barret was a really interesting guy and I'm totally in the group that wants his character to be preserved in the remake. He's awesome. But I think that parts of (or certain tones found in) his dialogue were an unfortunate side-effect of the cultural environment that led to an otherwise amazing game being published. I don't think that a modern localization studio would make the same assumptions that the original team did, and I assume that the new game will have a fresh set of eyes on it. So I believe that this problem will be dealt with publicly eventually.

If the game comes out with exactly the same text as the original, that's fine. Pieces of the game will still offend some folks, which is totally fine. Something that's okay to critisize, but totally fine. It would still offend me. And I'd probably buy it, regardless. But I appreciate hearing why certain things make people feel bad, and discussing strategies for making less people feel bad going forward.

@bananasfoster: He isn't just a big, angry black man and he has plenty of reason to be the way he is. You can argue a good portion of dialog was badly written and stereotypical, but who knows how much of that is translation. Also your analogy is pretty bad and I'm pretty sure Guile isn't a "thug" and every single character is blown out of proportion in Street Fighter. Plus Ken's American and he's eaisly on of the biggest favorites in Japan.

They should just remake the story/characters/dialogue as faithfully as possible and use that as a trampoline to discussion about how developers' and gamers' perceptions have changed over time.

I just watched the scene, honestly it's not the worst I've seen in a JRPG (the new Persona games come to mind) but yeah, there are some cissexist attitudes going on there. It has the usual themes of deception/lying/dishonesty that you find in media that's bad about trans people/gender expression, I also get the impression that we are supposed to find it funny that he's wearing a dress.

I think it would probably benefit from changing, the whole thing is kind of built on weird cissexist humour and implications of sexual assault. The simplicity of the game obscures a lot of the grosser stuff about the scene, it could go really bad really fast if it got more detailed.

@thatdudeguy: Which parts/tones? Sorry, I just remember him having a lot of 'tude and cursing a bunch.

I mean, the whole thing's presumably gonna be voiced (though the idea of a super graphically impressive remake with written dialogue only is oddly endearing), so all of the dialogue is probably gonna get looked at more closely, beyond just getting a better translation. Still, I'm curious as to what specifically about his dialogue offended folks.

@bananasfoster said:

Can you explain to me why I as a white person I should consider it offensive? Maybe I just have a very high tolerance for that sort of thing, but I don't necessarily feel like I need to acknowledge a caricature by identifying with it even if it's intended to be a caricature of someone of my origin.

Besides, all that stuff says more about the creator than it does about anything else.

Yeah I dunno that seems the worst 'white guy' stereotype I've ever read. Maybe it's supposed to be an American stereotype, but still, pretty bad. I'm literally none of those things described there, and I can't see how it's supposed to offend me. Also referring to Japanese people as 'japans' seems incredibly offensive, ironic seeing as that dude's trying to tell us about how offensive this game is.

The goofy goings on of Wall Market, Don Corneo's silly 'sex' scene or later in the game when a boss fight ends with a character being hit by a truck. It makes me sad that modern Final Fantasy can't seem to crack a joke.

I understand trans issues, but I also see the internet overblowing everything, and looking for flaws / offensive material wherever they can find it. The best way forward? Ask for trans positive characters in games, instead of going back and demanding the past conform to our modern moral compass.

I think the cross dressing scene and Honey Bee Inn stuff just stands out because how absurd it is when that first act of the game took it self pretty seriously. It really isnt anything to do with being offended. Well at least I havent seen someone with that opinion yet.

SE should make sure that they treat all of their customers with respect through their game. I am fine with the religion bashing (of course), I am not fine with transphobic ignorance.

Crossdressing Cloud in a glorious revamped model and 1080p is what I look forward to the most with the remake. Don't take this from me. T.T

Wow. I find it eyeopening that so many people find Barrett offensive. I have never been offended by Barrett at all. I thought the whole point of his character was to be a Mr. T. rip off. I found him to be pretty hilarious and I liked how they tried to round out his character with his backstory. Whether or not they succeeded is subjective.

As for the whole 'Cloud dressing as a woman" thing. I have an odd perspective on this.

The first time I played FF7 was in 2007. Keep in mind, this was after pop culture had elevated Cloud Strife to an honorary unflappable bad ass. So I came to FF7, thinking I would get just that. I was totally prepared to roll my eyes that this stereotypical bad ass. So imagine my surprise when I see the whole Don Cornello and Honey Bee Inn scenes for the first time not knowing that they would occur. In my opinion, these scenes helped ground Cloud as a character. It was fun to see this bad ass taken out of his comfort zone. It made him more human in my eyes. I feel Cloud has been done a disservice as being portrayed as such a stoic guy. I wish Cloud was seen more as they guy who gets shit done. If he has to put on a dress to do it, so be it.

So adopting a stereotypical vernacular that has been used in the real world to exploit and denigrate that particular culture without a really good reason

Can you tell me how Barrett talking the way he talks denigrates black culture? Barrett is not a butt monkey character doing a little soft-shoe for Cloud, he's an adult man with a tragic history, he's a bit of a hothead, and he speaks with an accent. So what? How does Barrett talking with African American Vernacular English necessarily denigrate him?

The biggest denigration I am seeing is the reaction to him. The only people who seem to be denigrating working class black people are those who think it's unacceptable to depict them unless their language and appearance is cleaned up.

Imagine if in the remake the added a new character named Tom who as white (as much as people don't like to think, the other characters are japanese). He's fat, lazy, and boorish. He can't work computers or machines and think's he better than everyone. He fights by using explosives and blowing everyone up at which point he celebrates with obnoxious "horse laughs", as the Japanese would say.

Would that not be offensive to you? It should be.

Really, I have to be offended by that? I have to see every depiction of a white person who is not my version of the coolest motherfucker in the universe as being a racist depiction of my entire ethnic group? I very much doubt that I should be offended. Maybe it's because that description sounds more like it's meant to shit on Americans rather than white people. Or were they saying that Finns are fat, lazy and boorish and fight with explosives?

The white dick with the braying laugh just sounds like Pat from Super Best Friends.

Cross dressing doesn't even necessarily have anything to do with being transgender. And if any one laughs about someone having to dress up as a girl or not is just a matter of personal humour if you ask me, people even dress up as the other gender for Halloween for god's sake.

Also I don't think Barrett being a stereotype should offend anyone any more than any other stereotype in any media.

Why would Barrett talkign in "African American vernacular" be offensive? For one, it's because it's not "African American vernacular". It's an urban accent that is tied to specific social origins.

BARRETT ISN'T AFRICAN AMERICAN. He's a space alien the same as all the other characters in the game. Having him talk "black" is essentially tying the urban, uneducated characterization purely to the fact that he has dark skin. If you can't understand why that's racist, you just don't understand racism.

What about the fact that Cid talks to same way. That dude is a rocket scientist.

Being offended by something is a choice. Just because someone chooses to be offended by something, doesn't mean they're owed special treatment or an apology. This game has dodgy writing and translations, throughout, any tweaks should be welcomed. The one thing I am certain of, is that none of it comes from a place of bad intentions or a mean spirit.

I know this is 2015, where everyone is offended by everything, all the time, but it's getting pretty boring.

That's a common American stereotype seen in anime. Look it up.

Again, if you watch anime and play Japanese games regularly, and pay attention to which characters are supposed to be American, you will realize that they are all focused on blowing things up, shooting things, destroying things, are lazy, and have litttle class. The characters you think are white, like Cloud Strife, are Japanese.

Someone just mentioned Ken as being an alternative to the Guile/Alex/Rungo/Paul Phoenix/Bass stereotype of the stupid white man. Pay attention to the character. What are Ken's characteristics? He's rich, lazy, and uncouth.

@blackichigo: Cid doesn't talk the same way. He just curses an equal amount. A lot of Barret's sentences are gramatically incorrect and full of contractions and omissions. Cid's language is course, but not in a way that is clearly playing to a stereotype.

Cid DOESN'T talk the same way. Even when you go to the town Barrett is supposed to be FROM nobody talks that way. Only Barrett, because Barrett is black. The closest person who talks similarly is Dyne, and Dyne has more of a southern, cowboy accent (also for no reason).

Being offended is the byproduct of having to fight for dignity. If you've never been offended, it's probably because you live squarely in the majority and have had privilege handed to you.

Don't fall for the asinine, right-wing nonsense about how people who are offended are "whiny". 100 years ago, people were offended ALL THE TIME. And you know what they did about it? They fought DUELS. They killed or maimed fools who disrespected them because that's what life is like when you have to fight for dignity. Dueling was so common in the south that it was a common message in church sermons to, hey, stop killing each other. It was only outlawed in the US when one of the members of our congress killed another over an offense.

Seems kind of silly to call Cloud cross dressing transphobic. The same kind of dumb cross dressing jokes can be found in countless movies, TV shows and games. Is it eye rolly and stupid? Maybe but I don't think it's offensive.

Barret, though, is a pretty racist characterization. Despite what people on the Internet may have you believe, there is a lot of racism in Japanese media, especially towards black people, and not all racism is somehow America's fault. That doesn't mean that Barret doesn't have any worth as a character beyond the stereotype but yeah, they definitely should (and I'm guessing they probably will) make some changes to Barret's character, specifically the part where his dialogue appeared to be written with a broken ebonics translator.

Yes, and in polite circles that accent is currently African American Vernacular English. Note the reference to its origins. I did not develop the name, don't race-bait me.

BARRETT ISN'T AFRICAN AMERICAN. He's a space alien the same as all the other characters in the game.

Then why should any of them speak English or anything else? If we have them speak English, should all of them speak the same way? If a character in a rural area spoke with a distinctive twang to bring to mind Texan accents, would you be upset?

Having him talk "black" is essentially tying the urban, uneducated characterization purely to the fact that he has dark skin.

I think you're right to some extent, I think Japan thinks Ving Rhames is cool and likes to put Ving Rhames in their games as much as possible. I wonder, though, if the few black characters who appear in Japanese games have to be middle class and well spoken, what characters ever will "talk black", as you say? In the desire to make sure people understand that not all black people sound like urban, working class black people it seems like no one is allowed to sound like urban, working class black people.

I'm amazed this line of thinking got worse under Obama rather than better.

To me the cross dressing scene is less about being offensive than it is about being hard to pull off with the same level of humor when you are dealing with realistic graphics and voice acting instead of super malformed models that are hardly recognizable as human and a weird translation. The original game is very quirky in many ways and it will be interesting to see what they do with those bits in a game that has to deal with new realities of game design.

Will there be a length snow boarding mini game? A Golden Saucer filled with all sorts of little games and silly side quests to do? An overworld map where you pilot an airship or a submarine? Will Tifa look like she weighs 110lbs, yet has watermelon sized breasts? Many things are going to change and that doesn't mean the remake will be trash or selling out.

I hear what you are saying. But I know for I fact certain people can learn to talk different way regardless of where they grow up. I myself am a black man that grew up in an urban environment. I have been accused of sounding white by numerous people that I grew up with because I didn't talk with the same vernacular almost everyone else did. It can happen.

I don't understand how you're not getting this. If the game takes place on a completely foreign planet, then everyone should talk the same. If they wanted to make an area where people talk ghetto, and that's where Barrett is from so he talks that way, fine. But they don't, despite you even going to Barrett's home town. Nobody in the game talks the way Barrett does except Barrett becuase Barrett is black. language comes from social conditions, not the color of your skin.

My guess is his dialogue read like a stereotypical black guy, he would get loud, shout and swear a lot like some gangsta.

I very much disagree.

If they wanted to make an area where people talk ghetto, and that's where Barrett is from so he talks that way, fine. But they don't, despite you even going to Barrett's home town. Nobody in the game talks the way Barrett does except Barrett becuase Barrett is black. language comes from social conditions, not the color of your skin.

This is true. Barret's inclusion seems to be less grounded in the cultures, ethnicities and locations shown in Final Fantasy 7 and more like he's there because the authors specifically wanted a character like him in the story.

But once again, I'd like to actually get back to what specifically the problem is and what can be done. If they took out all his swearing and any use of non-standard English, is he now acceptable? What if they took out his quick temper and his boisterous personality, is that a 'better' character in society's eyes? If they made him white but kept his personality and language the same, does this resolve the issue? What type or amount of erasure has to happen until the person depicted in FF7 is suitable for public consumption?

According to Eurogamer's interview with Nomura:

How the new, slightly darker aesthetic sits with some of the crazier elements of the original game remains to be seen, but it seems they'll be intact. Can't wait to see the delicious sight of Cloud in a dress in glorious HD? "Please look forward to it," said Nomura as the interview came to a close.

Eurogamer Article

Here's to hoping you can make Cloud wear the dress outside of that scenario.

@bananasfoster: I understand that's your take on those characters. It still doesn't explain why someone should have to find that offensive though.

Just for a laugh, could you please explain to me how Eddie Murphy and Wesley Snipes from blade celebrate the worst things in black culture?

The problem isn't Barrett or Final Fantasy, the problem is Japan. Just like Sazh from Final Fantasy XIII being based off of Eddie Griffen and Eddie Murphy, Zak from DOA being based on Dennis Rodman, Raven from Tekken being based on Wesley Snipe's Blade, and Balrog being based on Mike Tyson, Japan only knows about black people from movies.

So Japan likes black actors, comedians, athletes and superheroes. Those actors, comedians, athletes and superheroes are also quite popular in America, and among black people.

Are foreigners not allowed to design a character that looks like Eddie Murphy in his red leather Delirious getup? Why? Is the implication here that foreigners are not smart enough to understand that every single black person doesn't look and dress like a popular entertainer?

Movies, in turn, really only celebrate the worst things in black culture because that's what's marketable.

Aha. Well, I'm not comfortable making those kind of distinctions, so I guess I'll leave you to distinguish between the good and bad things in black culture. Thanks for the discussion.

It's offensive because it's demeaning.

Paul Phoenix in Tekken. Bass in Dead Or Alive, Alex in Street Fighter, Ken in Street Fighter, Guile in Street Fighter... what do these characters have in common? Blond Hair, blue eyes and American. Also stupidity, crassness, laziness and obnoxious personalities. This is what Japan thinks of white people and americans. The list goes on and on and on. I honestly think americans just don't get it because they think Cloud, Goku, Naruto, Ash and all other anime characters are white.

When a culture keeps saying "this is you!" and then showing stupid people with no culture meant to be laughed at, and you clap your hands and go "hahahaha! This is awesome! I love it!"... there's something wrong with that. When you laugh along with people laughing with you, you are a good sport. When you laugh along with people laughing AT you, you have no dignity.

People don't remember Big Bo? He's the shit.

I would love for there to be an over the top but badass Jewish character in a game.

I thought the joke was that because of the graphics the difference between the men and women were very slight. some of the reactions by characters and the sterotypical gay characters in the sequence are a sign of the time it was made and japan in general.

as for barrett etc. most of the characters in the translation were not written very well so to single out barrett seems silly.

heres hoping the do well with the translation this time

I dunno whether you're doing by accident, but you're sure doing a lot of this assuming all white people are the same, as you seem to think the FF devs do for black people. I don't think those characters are white. I honestly don't fucking care what race any of them are, it has absolutely no bearing on anything in my life. They're characters in a game, I will take them for how they act, the things they say, not their physical appearance, and I'm sorry you can't do this. Cloud Strife isn't American, he isn't Japanese either, he's from Nibelheim or whatever it was called. I dunno whether there's an established demonym for someone from there, but that would be what Cloud is.

I'm not completely sure what you're even trying to prove with this. Is this just some weird moral crusade because you think the Japanese are racist?

These reasons, among others, are why I wish this was never being remade. Let the game exist as a singular point in time. If SE does change FF7 to be more palletable they should have either just made a sequel or something else entirely.

Sazh is the clownish character who exists to be laughed at. He's frequently bumbling around, stupidly falling into situations while everyone else is capable.

Raven is a step forward, since he's one of the only black characters in all of Japanese created videogames who isn't a stupid clown.