Yeah at this point it would be a little bit of tearing posters off the walls of a burning house.
Maybe in a few years it will be something that sneaks its way into whatever the big bundle of DLC release is.
Offensive Material
@efesell: Can you imagine the uproar from the "don't cens0r g@mez" crowd if they removed that stuff from the game years down the line? Not worth the hassle.
At this point they should just issue an apology and do better next time. Maybe try to address it with some more nuanced storytelling and in game discussion in future DLCs.
I've tried playing this game over and over and it runs really well on my beefy PC
but I keep getting put off by how (offensively) bland it is?
And a lot of the supposedly "shocking content" just comes off as
edgy shit for kidz to me and it doesn't grip me one way or another.
Maybe I'm just too old a dog to enjoy this cyber-romp.
@efesell: Yah I'm not even advocating for removing all of it just to limit the placement. When I'm in the super fancy, rich people highrise district I really shouldn't be seeing all these lewd posters all over the place. It should be pristine and posters should all reference corpo life etc.
I'm really curious what this game will look like in 2 years time.
@geirr said:
...And a lot of the supposedly "shocking content" just comes off as
edgy shit for kidz to me and it doesn't grip me one way or another...
I think that's exactly what they were aiming for—the sort of edgy/taboo/forbidden content that's irresistible to 13 year olds desperate to convince mom or dad they're ready for an M-rated game. Thinking back to when I was that age, I'm sure 13 year old Serryl would've had a good laugh at every single "Origiatic" ad.
Was anyone offended by the references to religion, particularly the mission They Won't Go When I Go? I thought that one was bizarre yet really moving.
Funny enough, it's another scenario where the game puts the imagery out there without actually having much to say.
I remember raising my eyebrows a few times at some of the various ads featured in posters around the city and on the radio, and maybe some of the flavor dialogue out of the NPCs from time to time.
The sex stuff didn't really offend me as it did confound me. The explicit genitalia; the clunky, weird, shoehorned sex scenes; and the overabundance of dildos and sex shops just made me wonder why they were even put in the game, considering the state of everything else.
Nothing sent me pearl clutching, just raised some questions about better taste.
The "nothing offends me" crowd in here really seem proud to let you know it like it's some badge of honor lol.
@zulululul said:
For example, the Japanese obsession with honor. Yes, honor is a part of the culture, but it doesn't mean there is slavish devotion to it or the need to mention it every 10 seconds.
I played the completely historically accurate game Ghost of Tsushima and I can tell you that you are entirely, completely, 100% wrong. Honor is literally all they ever talk about. When a Japanese person asks his dad "what's for breakfast?" the father sternly looks him in the eye and solemnly intones "whatever it is we must eat with HONOR" in response. Then they get cereal.
To be fair to Cyberpunk, the honor stuff is really just one guy. Wakako doesn't care about honor. The Arasaka folks don't really care about honor. You also have a conversation with him where he pretty much explains where he's coming from, and he's really more about duty than honor, which is born from personal loyalty and isn't really that tied into Japanese culture. You find the trope of the loyal retainer across many cultures.
@serryl said:
@geirr said:
Was anyone offended by the references to religion, particularly the mission They Won't Go When I Go? I thought that one was bizarre yet really moving.
Funny enough, it's another scenario where the game puts the imagery out there without actually having much to say.
I would say I was quite offended by that mission and I'm not even that religious (tho religion has had a significant influence on my life). It was just very uncomfortable and bizarre the whole way through. It seemed earnest and serious yet misguided and tone-deaf. And to top it all off I later get called by that producer lady who then curses me out 'cause apparently I led her actor to doubt his faith. It was the one moment when I genuinely wished I could hang up the phone and not be subject to pointless verbal abuse. I just felt really disgusted with the whole thing. If I ever do a second playthrough I'm avoiding that mission.
Aside from that, I've honestly been having a pretty good time with the game despite the technical difficulties. The only other thing that felt remotely offensive to me was the random shoehorning of YouTubers in the world. I got over it eventually but I just found them irritating and it really broke my immersion to see those people in the game.
With regards to the representation of transgenderism in the game, I wouldn't say I'm offended so much as disappointed. Trans characters are mostly non-existent and although you can (kind of) make V transgender it's really just shallow and has no real impact on the game. Like, they tie gender to the voice for some reason and give you genital options but, all that really matters is the binary choice you're given at the start because it seems that's what actually affects whom you can romance. It would have been cool to have it acknowledged by my romantic partner and have a discussion about it. But they just shoot you down if you're not the right sex and never bring it up again.
@serryl: I liked that mission a lot actually. Like the subject matter was not offensive to me but it was just this entire series of events where I'm like.. how the fuck did I get here what am I even doing... should I back out of this.. well I've come this far.. back to how the fuck did this happen where even am I?
I thought it was great. It's a similar feeling to the Peralez chain, though not as well executed, that there isn't always a V Solves The Problem resolution
Sometimes V just has to walk away muttering about This Fuckin City...
I read Snow Crash and Transmetropolitan shortly before playing the game and also Neuromancer several years ago. From what I took away cyberpunk is not subtle, sensitive, or even very serious. Cyberpunk 2077 seemed fairly in line with those.
I havent played Cyberpunk (yet), but i have never been offended by anything in a video game prior, so i expect the same when i do play it.
@humanity: Well it's sure as heck trying to be edgy, which is just a milder form of being offensive. Like is it trying to hurt people and make them feel bad about themselves in the way it does with some of the trans stuff? I don't think so. I don't think the intent is to harm. Is it trying to shock people and make some of them uncomfortable, offending their "delicate sensibilities?" 100% yes no doubt for sure.
I think that most of us here were not offended in the way they intended to be offensive but were instead offended by other stuff that shows they just didn't think about things they should have thought about. Which is a theme with the game in general. Thoughtlessness.
I hate the porny ads and the hundreds of sex shops because they don't fit to the game world. You really can't have dirty sex and the game world is far from misogynist in practice for those ads to make sense. Like sure, there are some rapey things that activated enemies yell, but most power figures in the game are women. You like kill hundreds of people without anyone blinking an eye, shouldn't those adds be about guns and violence?
@charlie_victor_bravo: Cyberpunk has always been explicitly sexual in this way. It's very much rooted in the source material, though it's less in your face in text than in video game form.
I disagree that the game's world is not misogynist. It's exploitative in every way. It chews people up and uses them. The fact that there are powerful women doesn't mean there's no misogyny because powerful women can be misogynist like anyone else.
Plus you're only seeing V.'s particular world and friends. You can't judge how misogynist a society is just by the people one person happens to come in contact with.
@efesell I have to admit there was a point in that mission when you're riding in their car and instead of engaging Joshua about his faith you can just talk to the other two about food--I greatly appreciated that lol. Just the attitude of being like "uhuh... so what you guys having for lunch?"
The rest of it though just felt to me like it was written by someone who doesn't really know all that much about religion but wanted to say something serious about it anyway. Except that they end up saying nothing? It was just weird and out of place because everything else from the porny ads to the way people talk and their over-the-top behavior feels like it's riding the line with Saints Row. Like it's not meant to be taken seriously at all but this particular part was supposed to be serious--even though it's utterly hollow and pointless in the end.
Now that I think about it, there are many moments where the game appears to be poking fun at philosophy, or people who like to philosophize, without offering any meaningful alternatives for how to deal with the world. It's just very nihilistic in a way that's very wearisome when it draws attention to itself. I guess that's just the shallow "edginess" that everyone's been commenting on.
@mabojun: Well.. I don't think it was all that interested in saying anything about religion. Ultimately the quest is focused on the exploitation from that BD corp.
It's.. okay if it doesn't have a deep meaning behind it. It's about a sad lonely man who you are hired to be friends with for a day, because we can't extract maximum profit out of him if he starts wavering.
@bigsocrates said:
@charlie_victor_bravo: Cyberpunk has always been explicitly sexual in this way. It's very much rooted in the source material, though it's less in your face in text than in video game form.
I disagree that the game's world is not misogynist. It's exploitative in every way. It chews people up and uses them. The fact that there are powerful women doesn't mean there's no misogyny because powerful women can be misogynist like anyone else.
Plus you're only seeing V.'s particular world and friends. You can't judge how misogynist a society is just by the people one person happens to come in contact with.
I'm curious, do you think there's a good reason for this sort of exploitation in cyberpunk? What I mean is do you think it serves the story effectively or is it all just background noise to serve the general aesthetic of the game world?
I've just been wondering a lot about what the appeal of the broader genre of cyberpunk is, and so far it seems it's mostly about the gritty neon-urban aesthetic. I also think there's a bit of nostalgia in play as it echos the sci-fi dystopias of 80's action movies. Don't get me wrong, I love this sort of stuff in terms of aesthetics. But beyond that superficial layer, it's hard for me to understand why some people love it so much.
It's certainly not for lack of trying. I read Snow Crash a long time ago and enjoyed it. Recently tried reading Neuromancer but I couldn't finish it; I found Gibson's writing style to be very irritating and distracting. And people often refer to Bladerunner as being part of the genre, but there's nothing punk about that movie. It's really neo-noir (or maybe cyber-noir, I guess).
@asylumrunner said:
To echo the rest of the posts, I'm less offended and more just, like, embarrassed on behalf of CDPR.
Nailed it.
@mabojun: One of the major themes of cyberpunk (including but broader than Cyberpunk 2077 the game) is that corporations and capitalism exploit everything. Natural resources, employees, sex, food, water, air, whatever they can sell for profit they do. And in cyberpunk everything is for sale and the main purpose of everything is as a commodity. So the exploitation of sex and sexuality is a necessary and important part of that. The world of Cyberpunk 2077 has given up on any meaningful sense of morality. One example of this that Cyberpunk 2077 includes but doesn't explain is Trauma Team. The idea that ambulance services are privatized and if you don't have a policy they don't give a shit. This has analogues in the real world in health insurance (where it's less extreme but not fundamentally different) but in Cyberpunk 2077 even a gunshot wound is a profit opportunity for someone else.
Cyberpunk 2077 goes into this sexual exploitation with the dolls, and especially some of the conversations about them that you hear on the periphery, but it doesn't go into it deeply or meaningfully because it doesn't really understand what the message it's clumsily conveying really is.
So yes, I think crass sexuality serves an important role in cyberpunk in general. It is used to talk about exploitation and especially the appeal to people's basest and most animalistic instincts when you dispense with ideas of morality and philosophy and just get down to selling whatever you can to people. It's a vision of our own world with a little more emphasis on those elements, which helps us see the many ways in which exploitation and cruelty drive our own capitalist economy.
But I don't think Cyberpunk 2077, a game that is itself the product of exploitative corporate practices, fundamentally understands that. Cyberpunk 2077 is, in fact, also extremely cyber and not very punk. V. doesn't really fight the power, she is driven largely by a desire for fame and then a need for desire, and she doesn't really reject the corporate value system she just comes into conflict with certain parts of it at certain times. This version of Johnny Silverhand is a narcissist and extremely short sighted.
So in theory the sexuality fits the themes very well, but the themes are poorly integrated into the game itself.
@efesell: I guess so... I think it was the crucifixion part that really triggered me. I had no problem talking with the guy and being his friend but the way it ended was just... upsetting. Probably because I've known quite a few converts and religious folks (both in Christianity and Islam). And I've had my share of working with mentally unstable people as well. So this was just dredging up memories I didn't want to think about while playing this game.
I dunno... I suppose that's a testament to how emotionally effective it was, but it felt cheap. I guess it's just not for me.
@bigsocrates said:
@charlie_victor_bravo: Cyberpunk has always been explicitly sexual in this way. It's very much rooted in the source material, though it's less in your face in text than in video game form.
I disagree that the game's world is not misogynist. It's exploitative in every way. It chews people up and uses them. The fact that there are powerful women doesn't mean there's no misogyny because powerful women can be misogynist like anyone else.
Plus you're only seeing V.'s particular world and friends. You can't judge how misogynist a society is just by the people one person happens to come in contact with.
I don't know about the sexual aspect because I am familiar only with the translated stuff and looking at the english source book that comes with the game, the images are more pin up like then what I remember (either forgot about those or my country got censored version), so you might be right about the sexual roots of the material...
However problem is what the game shows and tells you and there is disconnect there.
@bigsocrates: Ah, I understand now. Thank you very much for explaining that, it was very well written. :)
I think you're right that the themes are poorly executed because the ads are so crass that it's impossible for me to imagine anyone being convinced to buy anything from them. I suppose I would have to imagine a moral decay so severe that those ads would be effective. As it is, it's hard to imagine how any of these corporations got to be where they are.
In fact, I find that I have to suspend my disbelief pretty far to buy into the idea that this city can actually function on a day-to-day basis. Like there doesn't seem to be a good reason for anyone to be living in Night City, lol. I'm surprised more people don't simply jack into cyberspace and live and work remotely from there for the rest of their lives. It's way too dangerous to go outside xD
Like I get that the corporations are evil but you'd think they'd do more to protect the welfare of their consumers even if it was just a means for manipulation. Or at least be a bit more subtle about their exploitation. I remember Takemura says something about how the corpos are ultimately the greater good and bring order to the world. And I thought it would have been neat if they showed something that could convince me of that even if it was actually a facade. I think there's some Arasaka propaganda on TV that does this a bit, but it's brief and easy to miss.
Btw there is I think at least one text log about Trauma Team and how their plans work. Also, Mike on the radio talks about them. But yeah, they don't go too deep into Trauma Team in the main story or any of the side gigs. You really have to dig for that information.
They could have done a better job at world-building in general. For example, I had almost no context for what Netwatch was so when I had to confront one of their agents and he made a counter-offer I was like "uhh... okay? I don't really get what you guys are trying to do here but sure, why not?"
@bigsocrates: It's also important to differentiate Cyberpunk the table top roleplaying game that 2077 is based on, and Cyberpunk as a genre. The tabletop game was first published in 1988, which is 4 years after William Gibsons Neuromancer which pretty much established the genre. The very basic tentpoles of cyberpunk are massive corporations, a web full of deadly "ICE" that can kill you, AI's, cybernetics and a mass melding of cultures.
There is way too much "Asian Other" and mid-80s "Japanese Takeover" panic in the Cyberpunk game. The game drip with asian characters and groups being protrayed as “foreign” or the “other”. Asian culture is used in that game to be seen specifically sitting outside of some typical white male"norm".
Sorry to say it, but when we update old 1980s media we are somewhat wrong to try to replicate their feel so much. The pen and paper game is steeped in a 1980s outlook where asia was the "yellow peril". The game prtrays a 2077 that teleports from 1980. It does not telepprt from a world of 1999 or 2010 let alone 2020.
This game does not start from a world of 2020 where urban Americans eat Pho, Beef Bowls, Sushi, Filipino BBQ, and Korean Bánh Mi Sandwiches are lunch. It doesn't come from a world of 1999 where Toyota builds cars in West Virginia, Kentucky, Alabama and Texas...Honda has factories in Alabama, Indiana, Ohio, and South Carolina...where half of all Hyundai cars are BUILT in the US for the North American market. This game does not come from a world that RECOGNIZES that during the 2010 United States Census the largest ethnic groups were Chinese American, Filipino Americans, Indian Americans, Vietnamese Americans, Korean Americans, and Japanese Americans.
What Americans should would look at CyberPunk 2077 as prognosticating anything logical about 2077? Their world of "asian otherness" where asian culture, food, and people are not ubiquitous and not part of our melting pot is more than just insulting. It IS actually insulting to continue the tropes CD Projekt Red uses. Gangs with katana swords...really? Thinking of noodles shops or asian text as exotic set dressing...really? Ugg.
@innacces14 said:
Wolfenstein II: The New Colossus was filled to the brim with the most offensive material I could imagine. What makes it so easy for me to go back to it was the developers and writers took the stand to identify it, show the player who did it (Nazi, Nazi-apologists, I mean yeah), and tell you to stand up against the monstrosity. Genres are so spineless these days because they want to sell a red lightsaber to the dopes that make the third "Empire was right" forum post for the week, or a collectable Infinity Gauntlet to the "Thanos did nothing wrong" crowd.
Cyberpunk 2077 sounds exhausting to me. Just another game where they blast ableist, transphobic, and eye-rolling cultural stereotypical language. The most disappointing thing that kneecapped this game, in the 8 years where they had this game in mind, was that they never took the time and responsibility to write something that pushes back against that language. Call me an old man, but I'm tired of having people talk to me about how the new South Park season is good. I get it. Cartman called Kyle a Jew.
No one talks about The New Colossus because it's message was clear; you need to be anti-racist. There isn't a multitude of forums dissecting the language unlike the new Star Wars trilogy where everyone is trying to find an out for Kylo Ren because "yeah, he took part in committing genocide of an entire star system, but ReyLo". You don't get the duplicate forums when you have a game that stands the hell up, becomes political, and puts it's foot down with it's message. No one is perfect though and I will bring expectations with the next Wolfenstein game. Entities change.
Cyberpunk 2077 unfortunately leaves me with this question; did they take 8 years to make some weird outlet for their "trigger the libs" jokes? Because I can listen to one episode of Joe Rogan and get that in one hour versus waiting 8 years and actively contributing 50 hours of my life.
I don't think people talk about Wolfenstein II all that much because, for as much as its head is in the right place, the rest of that game is problematic. I do think that game is a lot of fun and do recommend it to anyone who enjoyed the previous two, but the story is a stringing together of great moments and not really a strong overarching narrative. It's not cohesive, not really exploring anything other than "Nazis are bad and right-wing America isn't all that different". That, combined with the flat-out bad level design and the inflated difficulty, resulted in a game that seems to have left a lot of people cold on release. Wolfenstein Youngblood doesn't seem to have done anything interesting except completely fuck the idea of whatever story I hoped to see from a theoretical Wolfenstein III, introduce two annoying characters, and fill the game full of microtransactions.
If Cyberpunk 2077 had come out bug free, I believe reception would have been much less eventful. We would have had a few Polygon-esque articles discussing how it's an empty, offensive experience, a few Youtube videos lashing back about how "you just don't get it" or "keep politics out of my games" and that would have been that. It would have been as forgotten as Wolfenstein II, except by some who enjoyed it way more than most and some who were exceptionally offended by it. More appropriately, as forgotten as that middle bit in Resident Evil 5, where rundown but somewhat modern towns and villages get replaced by... well, whatever the fuck they were trying to evoke in that game.
In any case, it doesn't seem like a game where they intentionally tried to
...did they take 8 years to make some weird outlet for their "trigger the libs" jokes?
This doesn't come across as the case. When I discussed this game with my brother, I said it really seems like CD Projekt Red thought that the idea of a neon-soaked, crime-riddled, sex-obsessed cyberpunk city sounded cool so they made one and then made an obligatory game and story to go along with it. The offensive material is here because cyberpunk - the genre - frequently features awful things in awful futures about awful people. CDPR got the awful part right but they don't seem to have remembered to include anything thoughtful. Altered Carbon has already been discussed in this thread and it's a good example of what I'm talking about - they read the book and thought it sounded cool but forgot to dwell on the idea of removing your consciousness from your body.
@justin258 said:
It's not cohesive, not really exploring anything other than "Nazis are bad and right-wing America isn't all that different".
And it's that easy. The powers that be at Activision didn't have the guts to take such an easy stance literally the week after release of Wolfenstein II. CoD: WWII built an entire campaign with the message of "well, we're all just soldiers, and a good one follows orders" and ever since then they've been weirdly rehabilitating US history by putting the Highway of Death massacre in CoD: Modern Warfare and calling it an act by Russian forces. This year we got CoD: Black Ops Cold War where we're treated to the visage of Reagan like he's Jolly Ol' St. Nick. The message should be that easy, but you shouldn't be complacent about the message because that's what leads to the scum getting bold and running over people that are crying for basic human rights.
@bigsocrates above summarized the themes of the Cyberpunk genre. CDPR should know of the verbal bombs at play here. They even trotted Mike Pondsmith out to say that they were gonna take the franchise and subject matters seriously, but instead we got CDPR Twitter making mockery of gender identity all while management snoozes. Not even a slap on the wrist. Sorry for looking at it that way, but it's not hard to imagine the game as nothing but a juvenile little playground for their pathetic views on people. They earned this view. They made Witcher 3. They proved they had the chops, but I guess we're all settling on Keanu, right?
@justin258: I think the problem these days is that discourse has evolved greatly but along the way the boundaries have shifted so far apart that it's impossible to have any middle-ground conversations. You're either for the fascists or you're against the fascists, but very often there is just a game somewhere in the middle that gets lost in the shuffle. On one end you have IGN and people that just want cool explosions and on the other you have Waypoint where games are broken down to a sub molecular level. Is Cyberpunk just an empty crime city with nothing thoughtful to say? Is it just an outlet for triggering the libs? Well not really. It's a game that has a pretty standard videogame story with some pretty good character moments that is riddled with juvenile humor of the worst kind that often undercuts the good parts at the knees. After about 40 hours with it I haven't encountered any mainline missions that are about triggering libs or mocking transgender individuals or anything in between - although there is plenty backdroung art that is really bad. The Judy, Panam and Takemura questlines have all featured some solid character storytelling that isn't chock full of cheap shots. They are above average stories about people and their personal demons. It's not Dickens but for a game I think they do alright. Altered Carbon the book isn't all that much better than the show. The underlying message is a very basic "the rich get richer" premise and the main protagonist fucks and shoots his way to a victory over the neo oligarch of the future. If Cyberpunk got released without any bugs it would be a pretty good open world game with a decent story and a weirdly juvenile backdrop. I don't think there is all that much to unpack in this game really, none of it warrants this much discussion.
@nodima: I have been going everywhere in the game on foot for 98 percent of it and I'm playing on very hard, doing all side content within the optimal difficulty (if a mission is under 'danger: very high', I can't really do it yet), and it took me 23 hours to reach Keanu and the title card, which was surprising. I am now 34.5 hours in. I am really enjoying the game. I won't defend it nor could I even recommend it since its issues are well known and they're affecting so many, but for me personally, playing on the One X, the bugs are minor in my up to this point.
The combat/stealth/hacking/looting, etc., none of it is new, but I'm enjoying it and is well-enough made. I haven't done a lot of the main story, but what I've experienced so far I do like. The characters are good. I really like the world, from its sights and sounds. Side quests aren't as repetitive as I was initially led to believe, but they're not amazing. Overall, the game has issues, and on a technical level it's the frame rate that is most intrusive, but it's playable. I think it's great so far.
The game is definitely Deus Ex meets GTA, but only about... 20 percent GTA? Although it doesn't work entirely the same as Deus Ex, it's very reminiscent of HR and MD in terms of gameplay/traversal. I also want to say, I fully recommend people play on very hard. I think if they can diminish the bugs, maybe tweak some aspects (like inventory management), and people that had higher expectations set their expectations right, this game will be lauded by many whether it's deserved or not (unless, however, the stuff just offends you).
Going back to the topic though, that is an aspect I think is a bit over the top, but also in favor of the game just in terms of making the player feel disgusted for the state of its world. Some of that might make you feel something toward the developers, but a lot of it feels like it's made to tell its story.
@humanity: You're right. It is not possible to have "middle ground discussions" about basic human rights. The time for "Hey, let's have a laugh. But seriously, don't be a dick. Speaking of cicks, hey-oh" was decades ago. That shit has gotten more than a bit old
This shit is your racist grandpa who still feels the need to warn you to be "extra careful" when he sees them colored folk. This is a beloved children's book author with some sketchy stuff who goes full on transphobe once she has enough money to get away with it
So yeah. There is no middle ground on basic human rights. And while I get that all you want is a nice fun GTA-like but... saying shit like "none of it warrants this much discussion" is very much why we need to keep HAVING this discussion.
@humanity: No. Your "point" was
I think the problem these days is that discourse has evolved greatly but along the way the boundaries have shifted so far apart that it's impossible to have any middle-ground conversations. You're either for the fascists or you're against the fascists,
Please explain to me what a "middle-ground" conversation is when one side feels the other doesn't deserve to exist. "Okay Tanya. Jimmy here thinks you don't deserve to exist. You think you do. Could you try, I dunno, just not breathing on tuesdays? I mean, the middle is a great place to be". Or, in this case, "Look, you want to exist, they don't want you to. How about you just use your own bathroom and maybe wear some more feminine clothes in public. Thanks for being so understanding"
And that is the thing. When the punchline of the "crass joke" is "ha ha, you exist and are other" it is REALLY fucking hard to find a middle ground. We have been trying for pretty much the entirety of human history and it never ends well. Because when one side feels the other (or all others) don't deserve basic human rights, it never ends well. Because one side says "boys will be boys" and decides to grin and bear it. And the other side rallies behind an orange cumstain and keeps pushing harder and harder.
If Cyberpunk got released without any bugs it would be a pretty good open world game with a decent story and a weirdly juvenile backdrop. I don't think there is all that much to unpack in this game really, none of it warrants this much discussion.
And guess who gets hurt? Those people who you feel should just let it go and stop pretending this buggy game is a problem. I mean, you think it isn't and you should get your way, right?
If I am coming on hard it is because this is a fucking disgusting take. And, more importantly, it is a very common one. "Whatever, it is just a joke" or "It isn't worth talking about. Just move on" are how you let evil fester. Just like you should go to the doctor when you feel a lump so too should you have these conversations. Because it is up to everyone to decide what they are and are not okay with. But the only way for people to decide that is to have these kinds of conversations.
So decide if you want to be "in the middle" or not. But it doesn't make you or anyone else enlightened to meet a fascist halfway. It just means you ran off the cliff a long time ago.
@gundato: I really don't understand this black and white argument. It's very possible to say insensitive things and make fun of someone without believing that they "don't have the right to exist."
Speaking from my own experience as a Jewish person, I've encountered people who have said anti-Semitic things to me or around me who I don't think didn't acknowledge my right to exist. Then, of course, there are literal Nazis or the marchers in Charlottesville who chanted "Jews will not replace us" who absolutely believe I shouldn't exist. It's a spectrum. Neither is acceptable, but some people can be reasoned with and can make up for their actions through apologies and some must just be condemned and ostracized.
Cyberpunk 2077 has a lot of insensitive and inappropriate stuff in it but nothing that rises to the level of "these people shouldn't exist." Should these jokes and insensitive materials be in the game without the proper contextualization that makes it clear that the jokes and attitudes are being condemned? No. But you're reacting like Cyberpunk 2077 has some kind of powerful anti-trans propaganda in it instead of handling the issue badly and making some inappropriate and thoughtless jokes.
@bigsocrates: Gotta say, it’s quite shitty to use minority status to dismiss another marginalized group’s concerns. There are many, many trans voices online speaking at length, backed up with receipts, about how CDPR has been transphobic going many years back. Just because you are ok with splitting the difference on your oppression does not make it ok to dictate terms to someone else.
@gundato: In an effort make your point, which ironically I agree with, that it's important to be critical and have conversations about important topics you have low key compared me to porch racists which is extremely insulting and a shitty thing to do and this is not the first time I've interacted with you where you've "come on strong" to make your arguments. I am 100% behind making sure that no groups of society are marginalized and I'm happy to discuss this with folks to gain some insight on areas about which I'm probably quite frankly ignorant on - but you have to seriously work on the way you engage with people because this sort of nuclear option response isn't helpful in promoting a healthy conversation about anything.
@navster15: First of all I'm not "using minority status to dismiss another marginalized group's concern." I'm just drawing comparisons to my own lived experience like, you know, everyone does when talking about a situation that doesn't directly affect them.
Secondly I've never argued that CDPR is not transphobic. I've just argued that there's a difference between making inappropriate jokes and being insensitive and taking the position that a certain group should not exist. This should be a non-controversial point. There are lots of people who believe trans people should not exist. J.K. Rowling is a prominent recent example but of course there are a ton more. CDPR has made some bad comments and should be held to account for them, but arguing that they are essentially genocidal towards trans people requires some evidence. You can hold them to account for their bad behavior without attributing a hyperbolic position to them. They apologized for their shitty "did you assume gender?" comment. Now nobody has to accept that apology, and their subsequent behavior shows they did not learn their lesson, but if you want to take an extreme genocidal position you aren't going to apologize for a relatively minor joke.
There are levels of prejudice and bad behavior. None are acceptable, but you need something beyond a history of prejudiced jokes and insensitive comments to accuse someone of not believing someone else has a right to exist. Hold them accountable for the bad stuff they did do by all means, but let's be honest about what it actually was.
@bigsocrates: That’s a hell of a minimizing of their sins by amounting it to apologizing for an errant tweet. Here’s a thorough breakdown of why the trans community is not giving them the benefit of the doubt in any capacity:
https://www.polygon.com/2020/12/4/22058784/cyberpunk-2077-marketing-cd-projekt-red-transphobia
And hey, maybe all that is enough for someone to look past and take Cyberpunk 2077 on its own terms. But when prominent trans voices are calling this game out, and linking it directly to the transphobic culture that actively makes them the target of disproportionate violence to the point of murder, maybe the best course of action is to actually listen to them instead of planting yourself in the “well *I* don’t think it’s that bad” camp.
@humanity: Wow. Enlightened Middle Ground, Can't You Take a Joke, and Tone Policing. Y'all got the trifecta. Good job?
Ugh
@bigsocrates: As others have already pointed out, the "I get discriminated against and don't complain so they shouldn't either" is a REALLY bad opinion. Some people can take it and some people can't. But NOBODY should have to "take some ribs" because of the circumstances of their birth. Hard stop.
But you are right. There is a gradient. And it is up to people to make a decision on what they are or aren't okay with. it is NOT up to anyone to say that something shouldn't be discussed or to pretend like you are enlightened for being able to "take a joke". There is definitely room in the world for dark humor and even going a bit "blue". But, for those who aren't just insisting that folk need to take a chill pill and stop bashing a game for being buggy will point out, this is more about the overall fetishization of trans individuals in the cyberpunk marketing and the fact that they are constantly used for shock value because they are SOOOOOOOOO other.
@navster15: I did not say that the entirety of their sins amounted to that one tweet. What I said was that they would not have apologized for the tweet if they were staking out the position that trans people shouldn't exist. Your own link says that they fired the social media person who made the tweet for that and similar actions, which says that the studio at least recognizes on some level that these are not appropriate behaviors.
The list of activities described in that article range from bad jokes, to insensitive and appropriative marketing (including the "mix it up" image and the cosplay contest) to incomplete options for playing trans characters (they should patch in the ability for the game to flag you as female if you have the 'male' voice and visa versa.) It doesn't even get into Watson Whore, but we'll include that in the list too.
All of these are things that are bad and that people can and should condemn up to not playing the game if they don't want to. But the specific allegation I was referring to is the statement that "trans people should not exist" which that behavior doesn't evidence. Instead there's bad humor and exploitative and poorly implemented material around trans people. And that's not okay, but it's not the same as being openly genocidal.
I didn't say that the behavior was okay. They've apologized for some of it, they should apologize for more of it and correct it where possible. But while the cited article holds them accountable for specific actions they've taken, the poster I was responding to went way further. And I think part of holding people accountable is being specific about what you're holding them accountable for.
I honestly think the games biggest problem is that a lot of it is not "Capital 'O' Offensive" but more like lowercase "o" offensive. The portrayal of minority groups, the over sexualization of everything, and teh portrayal of trans people in this game all result not in a bang but a whimper. This game feels like it was written for 13 year olds who spend their time on reddit and 4chan because they're "edgy".
This game doesn't seem to have an opinion on anything, it comes off as the most average and forgettable thing I've played in awhile, all while pretending that it is the epitome of a cyberpunk game just because it has the actual "Cyberpunk" license. It says nothing about about the main themes of the cyberpunk genre, but people will point to the cyberware, the neon and the sexuality as to why its a great cyberpunk game.
And all this doesn't even touch the absolutely average and okay but forgettable gameplay that I would call unremarkable. I get that they were not actively developing this game for 8 years, but in the 8 years since announcement, it feels like they never thought about the real world and just hoped that people would be okay with such an average game.
@bigsocrates said:
And I think part of holding people accountable is being specific about what you're holding them accountable for.
Let me try then along with answering the OP's question which was "have you found anything offensive".
Yes. It is the grossly stereotypical depictions of everything that isn't white male cisgender, and CD Projekt should be held responsible for the thoughtless lore misuse of a franchise that has sold more than 13 million (13,000,000) copies which will most likely cultivate another home for people to act as insensible, complacent, and vicious as they want with regards to race, ethnicity, gender, gender identity, and class.
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