Breaking: Bungie Still Behaving Horribly

I sorta love that the whole interview is just Eurogamer ambushing some creative with questions about the pricing and special edition digital tchotchkes that are both decisions probably made above his pay grade.

Whatevs, it's been obvious since shortly after Destiny's release that publisher meddling completely sabotaged whatever creative vision might've at one point existed in Destiny's dev cycle.

For those of you who don't know, Luke Smith is a former games journalist who at one point was news editor for 1UP. He has officially lived long enough to see himself become the thing he hates.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/issues/issue_71/409-Game-Journalists-on-Game-Journalism

"We have to be responsible for our actions and held accountable when we manipulate the expectations of gamers"

Ahahahahaha my sides

I find it funny so few people are lashing out at the whiney journalist crying about emotes... the CE isn't for you dumbass!

How about one of the most fun games I ever played?

Whoops, I forgot we're not supposed to like this thing. It's cool to hate it. I mean... Bungie sucks because the amazing game they made had some annoying flaws that they addressed! Screw them!

This is a little bit off topic but I've actually come full circle on this game. I hated this game after release. The leveling back then was terrible and even playing with friends felt like the end game was tedious at best. Now I still followed the new on this game cause like a lot of people I thought the core game had something going for it but it lost its luster somewhere along the way.

Flash foward a few months as I skipped Crota and started to hear that changes were being made. A long running quote with a friend of mine was "Have they patched the fun into the game?" but something about this game kept me following it.

Finally House of Wolves comes out and I decide to come back in. After a small bit of grinding to get some gear I was able to start into the DLC content and man once you can start doing House of Wolves its fun. I'm now almost max level on two characters and will say they did patch in the fun.

So yes this game is polarizing, yes it's cool to hate this game, but I will say if you are open minded about it there is a lot to like about it.

@zirilius: I took breaks of 2 months twice, but I never really stopped playing Destiny. Did everything in Vanilla, hit 30, then stopped. Dark Below came out, I reached 32 on all my characters, murdered Crota solo, then stopped. House of Wolves came out, I got all my characters to 34, murdered Skolas, went flawless, and now I'm easing in to starting to play the game a bit less again. Not going to stop completely though, just doing Nightfalls, Skolas and Trials I think. Also Crota. Contrary to what most people think, I actually enjoy that Raid more than VoG.

@hestilllives19: You are correct that the text probably betrays what was likely a more conversational interview in person – however! the fact that the fellow is so completely casual about what he's saying about Destiny, the value proposition, and how people should be happy to keep spending money and having to re-buy content is exactly what bothers me about it. The content of his words are as important as whatever tone is lost in translation into text.

This just isn't true though. This is exactly why all this stuff is incredibly blown out of proportion. We're talking about 3 emotes. One for each character. I don't need that. I'm getting the 40 euro version. I'm not forced to rebuy any content at all. Yes, of course it would be cool if they made the emotes available for others in some way, but if you're honestly going like: 'You're ripping me off by making me rebuy something I already own', then you're actually crazy (using 'you' in the general sense in this sentence, not directed at you specifically). It's emotes. Don't buy it. You don't need it to play all the new content.

But it is true that if someone wants the emotes, they will have to rebuy content and that's fucking stupid. You can't defend the idiocy of it.

@zevvion: I know you are not referring to me specifically in the "you don't need to buy this"/"it's an emote - you're crazy" comment but I want to clarify - I also don't give a darn about something small like a couple of emote. However, Bungie is really close to "preying-upon" territory towards the people to whom this stuff does matter. The flippant and predatory attitude Bungie seems to have towards their player-base is really worrisome. Maybe I'm over-thinking it.

I think calling Destiny a "bad" game is wrong. But I also think your statement above is overboard the other direction.

After putting a lot of time into the game through Crota, I think I put my finger on what is "wrong" with Destiny. A few points: It's like a mobile company bought a game and retrofitted it for the F2P, addiction based space. But instead of a monthly fee or microtransactions, we get... Macrotransactions? Within the construct of Destiny, there is this really fun game. But it has been segmented and monetized in a new way. It's a monthly fee by another name, along with Live and Plus subscriptions.

So you've got everything above with pricing, which is really a grey area. It's not inherently good or bad, just different. What really derails Destiny is the support from Bungie. They get a lot of credit from fans for "listening" and "fixing" things. But if you can take a step back and look at how updates, expansions and fixes have rolled out you start to see Bungie getting a lot of money and credit for not a lot of... Anything?

The expansions: For all the damage control from Bungie, I think most people can reasonably come to the conclusion that asset generation for the 2 expansions had been completed beforehand. I know there has been a backlash to the backlash with criticizing this stuff, but the hard truth is: Destiny had content cut out to be resold in future chunks. Which wouldn't be a huge sin on its own, save for the fact that the base game shipped with infamously sparse content. And this recent episode with The Taken King is just symptomatic of this.

There's a... Brazenness to it all.

Then you look at fixes and updates. First, Bungie prioritizes changes to the game that keep players progressing at an approved pace. Cheeses and the loot cave stand out as fairly rapid responses in the whole scheme of things. Things like the popular "Exotic Rebalance" took an extraordinarily long time. The vault space issue exposed a weird chink in the argument of Destiny being a "platform". If it was designed that way, it wasn't a WELL designed platform. The "Heavy Ammo Bug", raid bugs that harmed players (as opposed to helping them complete the raid) were untouched for a relative eternity. It came down to this:

If something quickened player progression unintentionally, Bungie squashed it. If something slowed player progression unintentionally, Bungie ignored it and saved it for the next expansion pack reveal. As if to sweeten the pot.

Basically, for the money being paid, Bungies support and additions have been lacking. You filter all this down to the moment to moment gameplay, and at least personally, it left me feeling hollow. I say this half seriously: Destiny played ME. Bungie played me.

@hotspray: Your argument collapses on itself. The game is not even a year old and Bungie has proven to be working constantly on it to improve it. People complained about level progression being too harsh of a climb, they softened it in The Dark Below. They went even further with it with House of Wolves. They did nothing to 'squash quick player progression' ever. All they did was take out cheats on a Raid boss. You can still complete the Raid and get the exact same rewards you would've if you cheated. You just need to complete the actual encounter. The loot cave didn't quicken anything. I'm not sure why you'd even think it would. Getting the marks required to buy the piece of armor you needed is about two hundred thousand times faster than standing at the loot cave which dropped a Legendary engram once every three hours on average, which then had a 1 in 5 chance of being an armor piece and then a 1 in 3 chance of it being for your class and then a 1 in 4 chance of it being the piece you needed. That's a 2% chance to get what you need for 3 hours of boringness. You can easily accumulate the marks required to straight up buy the exact thing you want in less than 3 hours. The loot cave was never a thing. It was only a thing by people who had absolutely no idea what they were doing. It didn't get anybody anywhere.

The loot cave was the absolute worst, most boring and most definitely slowest way to grind. They've changed all that to be super easy and fast over the months. Squashed down nothing, they doubled down on addressing it.

Now, let's take a look at other games shall we? None of them have been supported as well as Destiny. Ever. Can't name a single game. Weekly updates, weekly tweaks, weekly fixes (if any are necessary). Considering it is a console game, they are lightning fast at dishing the fixes out. Skolas was considered by many to be too hard of an encounter. One month; he has been patched. That's a patch that goes through certification. And it's not actually a month, since most people only started doing Skolas in the second week. It took a while for the criticism to take hold and get Bungie's attention. You can call it a two week turn around. That's nuts.

I get what you're saying, but you're talking from a sense of entitlement and desire, not logic. The fact is, Destiny has been supported better than any other console game ever of its scope. The fact is Bungie has changed literally the exact things people complained about most, bar the story missions. In less than a year, that's a pretty stellar achievement.

It's just people liking to hate on Destiny, it honestly isn't anything else. You simply cannot look at the changes the game has received and say that Bungie isn't listening or making great changes. It's not outsiders looking in, it's outsiders not looking at all and jumping on a hate wagon. If you take a good look, you'd see how much the people that play the game enjoy what it's become. Even the ones that were opposed to it at first.

You like the game. Others who have played it extensively also like it. On the other hand, others who have played it extensively do not like it. Some even hate it. Asserting that the game is only disliked because it is a popular opinion to have invalidates the experiential opinions of those who played it and dislike it - for example, people like me. If there is any opinion that is widely-enough held to be considered 'popular', it would be that the gameplay feels fantastic. That is one thing no one seems to dispute. The quantity, quality, and value of the content in which to utilize the gameplay is the point of contention. For example, for you it is plenty. For me it is way too little. You enjoy repetition in the systems of Destiny, I don't.

It is also my opinion that Bungie has not responded to community critique in any meaningful way at all. They certainly didn't do anything that I felt addressed my concerns when I still owned the game. The primary critiques leveled at the game (all of which are mine as well) are the lack of gameplay variety, lack of environments, lack of story, lack of enemy variety, and lack of content overall. From what I gather, this hasn't changed much. Strikes and Nightfalls and whatever other name they want to give to altered enemy placement, weaknesses, and health are not new enough experiences to me. I also, personally, didn't find the leveling satisfying, for the same reasons as have been discussed many times over in excruciating detail by better and more thoughtful writers than me, for nearly a year now.

You clearly find the leveling and (inarguable) repetition satisfying. That's good, for you. If you want to defend the game, I guess you are welcome to do that, but realize that the game isn't secretly brilliant and every loudmouth naysayer on the internet is too stupid to see that. Most of us who say we hate the game have actually played the game, and we simply think it's a frustrating, soulless, unrewarding piece of shit.

That's pretty disgusting, I've just payed £40 for both dlc's wich both together felt like a £15 dlc from the previous generation.

Also, i wonder what percentage of their user base is actually the special edition, because it wasn't single handedly the special edition owners that made the game what it is today. We all are. We are/were all fans, we made it what it was. Without us they are literally nothing. It really infuriates me!.

All I can say to them is, don't bite the hand that feeds you...

@kcin: That isn't what I meant. I meant that people who hate on Destiny for literally every tiny little thing. If you don't like Destiny, sure. That's valid. It's a specific game, it's not for everyone. You say you have a problem with the repetition, but that's the game it is. I enjoy doing that stuff with different modifiers. I like the challenge, I like figuring it out and I like becoming good at it. You don't, that's fine. You dislike Destiny, that's fine.

But Bungie has supported Destiny insanely well. Of course they will not patch out the repetition in the game because it is a core part of it. Therefor, someone like you will never like it. But they did address every little thing for the people who care about this game complained about. Leveling is much faster and far less random; because people complained they never got there or it took a long time due to RNG. You can get to max level in 4 different ways now; because people complained the Raid was the only way to get there even though they didn't care about it. There is tons of things to do each week to the point where people are actually starting to complain they can't get to all of it every week.

You still won't like it, because it's still about repetition. Destiny isn't for you and disliking it from that standpoint is valid. But the hate in this thread and elsewhere on the internet for Destiny is looking at it with a blindfold on and ignoring the changes that have been made to it.

So Destiny has been supported better than any other console game ever of its scope?

Alright. Let's see.

Mass Effect 3. Forget the single player campaign exists. Here's their support for the multiplayer (from wikipedia):

The Mass Effect 3: Resurgence Pack is a free DLC pack for Mass Effect 3 that added two new multiplayer maps, six new multiplayer characters, three new weapons, and four new consumable items. The pack was released on April 10, 2012 for Xbox 360 and PC, April 11, 2012 for PlayStation 3 and on-disc of the Wii U version

The Mass Effect 3: Rebellion Pack is a free DLC pack for Mass Effect 3 that added two new multiplayer maps, six new multiplayer characters, three new weapons, a new match objective, and a new equipment slot. The Rebellion Pack was released on May 29, 2012 for all platforms worldwide, May 30, 2012 for the PlayStation 3 in Europe, and on-disc of the Wii U version.

Mass Effect 3: Earth is a free DLC pack for Mass Effect 3 that added three new multiplayer maps, six new multiplayer characters, three new weapons, five weapon mods, eleven gear upgrades, a new match objective, and a new Platinum difficulty. Earth was released on July 17, 2012 for Xbox 360 and PC worldwide. For the PlayStation 3, the pack was released on July 17, 2012 in North America, July 18, 2012 in Europe, and on-disc of the Wii U version.

Mass Effect 3: Retaliation is a free DLC pack for Mass Effect 3 that added fifteen new enemies, sixteen new playable characters, three new weapons, six Gear bonuses, three ammo bonuses, environmental hazards for six existing maps, and Challenges for players to complete. Retaliation was released on October 9, 2012 for Xbox 360 and PC worldwide. For the PlayStation 3, the pack was released on October 9, 2012 in North America, and October 10, 2012 in Europe.

Mass Effect 3: Reckoning is a free DLC pack for Mass Effect 3 that added six new playable characters, seven new weapons, and two gear bonuses. Reckoning was released on February 26 for Xbox 360 and PC worldwide. For the PlayStation 3, the pack was released on February 26, 2013 in North America, and February 27, 2013 in Europe. This was the final Multiplayer DLC for Mass Effect 3.^[6]

Grand Theft Auto V. Forget the single player campaign exists (hard to do, but try). Multiplayer had a rocky start which required an enormous amount of work. Keep in mind the whole thing was free. Heists missing? Still tons to do. For no additional cost. When the heists came out? Could have easily been a $40 dollar expansion. It was free. Here's what rockstar released for free:

http://gta.wikia.com/Grand_Theft_Auto_V/Title_Update_Notes

All free. Along with various freebies and giveaways along the way.

Final Fantasy XIV, Elder Scrolls Online: Both launched with more content than Destiny, let alone the lavish Heavensward expansion for XIV. Doubling the initial landmass, multiple raids, etc etc etc. For the same cost as Taken King. C'mon now.

Bungie charged top dollar to drip feed already Gold content alongside minimal and obvious quality of life changes. Best support ever? Not even close.

"They listened and made things easier to level!"

Well first of all, their light leveling system should have been un-fucked on a white board roundtable 6 years ago. It was a terrible idea from the jump, and it snowballed after Dark Below. Did nobody think invalidating an entire raid was a bad idea 3 months in? Christ. The update to that was a band aid to stop the bleeding from an insane and downright dumb design choice. It isn't something that should be applauded.

@zevvion: I just don't see it that way. I see a lot of people who dislike the game for whatever reason, and they are just saying so in harsher, shorter terms. Ask them to expound on it and they probably could if they wanted to. Calling the game an "MMO experience that doesn't play like trash" is, frankly, very true. It is willfully an MMO, and it controls beautifully. I can't speak from experience because I've never played an MMO, but it also is reportedly much more hollow than an MMO. I can vouch for that feeling of hollowness, whatever the case. The problem now is that Destiny is one of the most talked about games of this (or maybe even last) generation, and nobody really feels like validating their opinions anymore because they already have so many times for so long. People stand where they have stood for months now, and it's unlikely that anything will change that.

Most complaints are that the game's story is nonexistent and the world feels empty and the enemy variety sucks and all that, and Bungie hasn't addressed any of that, they just keep doing very technical modifications that really only benefit the Destiny hardcore player. That's why the biggest joke when a new expansion comes out is "now the Knight is a little bit bigger than before!" Until they make drastic, arguably superficial changes, most people who don't like the game still won't like it. The changes Bungie makes to Destiny only satisfy those who basically like Destiny the way it is and just want to enjoy it more.

As far as patching and support: when you regard Destiny as an MMO, is the patching and support still as spectacular, or is it simply a reasonable expectation which they are, apparently, meeting?

That will 100% be a reality. All kidding aside.

Something big happened over there to change that studios culture I swear.

I'm out. Just bought the game for $30 last week and it seems best to cut my loses and move on

@hotspray: Both Mass Effect 3 and GTA V include microstransactions. Elder Scrolls Online had a subscription fee for a year and now has microstransactions (and an optional subscription fee) Final Fantasy XIV has a subscription fee and still charges for expansions. You can't really compare that to game that sells DLC every few months. The majority of the updates in Destiny are free. Sure, the free updates don't add content, but they have improved the game immensely.

So because a game has microtransactions, it's expansions are no longer free? I never spent money on GTA. I still played all the heists and had a good time. Did I pay and not know it? Believe me, I get the argument that you're making.

And I bolded your quote. "The majority of the updates for Destiny are free." I don't want to blow a blood vessel, so I'll assume you're making the case for the actual raw number of patches. And we can unpack that to death, but based on the two points you've made, I don't think there's any point.

There have been 30 patches since launch, 2 of them were paid DLC.

No, I know that's where you were going with that. No need to state it, if you read my response. I like how we've taken this broad idea of long term product management, and you've zoomed all the way in to this tiny level in order to make it seem like something it isn't. Creative debating, and something I would think Bungie capable of putting out. Do you feel as though those 30 patches are individually worth a premium price point? Do you feel any patches to games that have microtransactions of any kind are no longer valid? It's a nice tactic, but I don't know what scorekeeper in the sky you're trying to impress with this nonsense.

I'm pretty set with the points I made, and I feel like it comes from a seasoned perspective. So... Yeah?

Greed.

I shouldn't be surprised to see that so many comments in here are still waffling on as if the expansion is ''$40'', and how ''that's nuttin compared to Sims expansion you guyzzzz!''. £40 isn't $40, and no expansion has ever been sold for the same price as a full game. This is the exact same shit like when everybody was defending the price point for Ground Zeroes under the assumption that the US = the world. And as mentioned before the UK price is likely a drop in the bucket compared to what it's probably being sold in Euros.

The notion that Bungie is listening to feedback from fans and making the game better through iteration is great.

The reality that I should fork up a decent amount of cash every few months to watch them stumble through this process is of no interest to me.

@yummylee: yep. The RRP appears to be €70 judging by Amazon France. That's almost £50 or US$80. For the standard edition, btw. The Eurozone is a massive rip off for game prices.

http://www.amazon.fr/gp/aw/d/B00ZPQCN8Q/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?qid=1435109844&sr=8-3&pi=SY200_QL40&keywords=destiny&dpPl=1&dpID=51pbrSjluPL&ref=plSrch

I'm really not trying to prove the point that Destiny is the best supported game ever. I wasn't the one that originally said Destiny was the best supported console game ever. I don't agree with that, but I do think they've done a decently good job at addressing concerns and criticisms with semi regular patches. And yes, like I said, the major content releases cost money, but the patches aren't just product management. Sure, some of them are bug fixes and balance tweaks, but there have been lots of meaningful improvements in those free updates as well. The vault size was increased, the UI has been improved in many different ways, they added public voice options, matchmaking was added to the weekly strike, the grind was removed from the material economy, etc, etc.

I also wasn't necessarily saying that GTA and Mass Effect are bad because they have microtransactions, in fact I think the model of releasing free content that is supported by microtransations is one of the better paths. However, you did sort of imply that those games were bastions of consumer friendliness because they gave out free content, when in reality they simply have a different business model that is capable of taking just as much (if not more) money from players. Whether or not that model is preferable to the model of releasing high priced expansions every few months is certainly debatable, but don't pretend the content was being given out free out of the goodness of the dev's hearts.

To be clear, I think Bunige takes way too long to address serious game issues. The crucible has been incredibly unbalanced since they destroyed auto rifles and let Thorn run wild, and they haven't even acknowledged it. Glitches existed in both raids for far too long, and they've always taken too long to address raid exploits and have never been able to get rid of all the cheese methods. Their support isn't perfect and I have plenty of criticisms, but in general they've been pretty good at getting an update out at least once or twice a month, and those updates usually have somewhat meaningful improvements (to regular players at least).

It's a bummer, too. I have really liked Luke Smith ever since I first heard him and Sketch on the Bungie Podcast many, many years ago. I still re-listen to those pods.

I really don't even know anymore.

oh that game...... they will apparently address everything like its nothing in the weekly update on their site. let's see what happens,

I wont think the worse of luke smith just yet, as on the E3 cast, he straight took on all the criticisms Jeff has with the game head on,

Totally, that's how i feel too, back when Frankie and them ripped it up.

@big_jon: Bungle Pro Video.

I want the Bungie Kids back.

I haven't played Destiny but I think I might get in on it when one of these game of the year editions is on sale. It'll be like 200 dollars worth of content for 30 bucks!

@mchampton: Actually 60$ dollars worth of contents. The game have never felt like it worth its price neither its DLCs. But now the game have grown pretty well to be passable for the 60$ tag.

Pro tip. You need at least one teammate to enjoy the game or it will become a total snooze fest.

All snark aside, you can spend the rest of your days on earth trying and failing to make that case. It reminds me a little bit of politics. The big lie is the most effective. All you need to do is deliver it with a straight face.

"Destiny is the best supported game ever."

Sure it is.

As long as no other games count. For any myriad of reasons you invent on the spot.

If you grouped every expansion together including this one and the base game, maybe worth the 60$. Bungie burned us so hard on this game, and continues to gleefully because people keep buying it. When other devs pull shit like this its because people put up with this. I'll never buy a bungie game again honestly (provided I continue to be angry and don't forget)

@giant_gamer: Only Hitler can make a lie like this and get away with it. Oh.. Wait.. he didn't.

While i understand that the game feels like an awesome shooter, and the loot you can gain is very well done, everything what Bungie is doing with Destiny drives me further and further away from that game. It's a shame because they could have made a real solid game without having to nickle and dime people like they are doing now.

When push comes to shove, a few emotes is a really dumb thing to get upset over. For those who already have the game, it is simple: don't buy it. Not having these stupid emotes will not affect the game in any way. I'm definitely not gonna waste my time getting outraged over an interview that was typed out and posted online. It is just all around a really stupid thing for people to get upset over.

If you think it's just about a couple of emotes, that's fine. For the people who follow the industry and take interest with stuff like SKUs, price models, and the evolving business of gaming, this is all very fascinating. Destiny has become this petri dish for a new way of making and selling annualized franchises. It's big news, it's big business and it hasn't really ever happened before at this mass market level.

That was a typo. If you'd read my whole post, you could have easily deduced that there was meant to be a "not" in that first sentence. I guess it's easier to simply insult someone.

Fair enough, my mistake.

I really don't see how liking or hating Destiny changes that everybody in the article sounds like a Jackass. The interviewer swept in on a creative with known ties to past Games Writing groups; he's the perfect target to make everyone involved with Destiny seem like absolute moneygrubbing ActiviDrones. On the other hand, Luke Smith is a grown-ass man, and even given his situation the responses he gave were belittling and insulting to the very players he claims to support.

Some people like Destiny for really good reasons. Some people dislike Destiny for really good reasons. As far as I could tell, that much had been made clear a full goddamn year ago. So, what, it just takes one poorly thought-out article where neither participant is particularly spotless to descend on each other like bloodthirsty scavengers? To try and carve what little flesh is left on this dead, wind-dessicated horse carcass? For the love of God, I am a huge Destiny-sceptic, but they just announced that shit a week ago. If they say they've got something in the works for Year One Players, then let's wait to see that before even considering adding another notch to the Destiny Love-Hate Debate.

We're back, and ready for round 2!

I don't EVER want to consume an "energy drink," and I shouldn't have content withheld from my purchase on the condition that I purchase something that I don't want and won't use. But that's just me personally, because many people don't even have a 7-11 anywhere close to where they live.

Thanks, Activision. There are a lot of video games coming out this year, and you've made it much easier for me to stop playing this one.

I sensed the vaguest sense of criticism in that video... Time for Bungie to fly out whoever is behind Planet Destiny, put them up in a great hotel, give them free exposure and T-Shirts along with a Deej face to face. It worked for the rest of youtube.