Kamitani responds to Kotaku criticism of the characters.

@mellotronrules: I thought it was an interesting interpretation, but I think the more likely reason behind her bussom is that the artist was inspired by Frank Frazetta.

There's no problem with having large breasts on a character. I'm not a fan of that size, but it's not inherently sexist. Everything said is pure conjecture, since no one knows the reasoning behind each design but the artist. It seems easy and lazy to simply label things as sexist than to actually try to analyze the work and try to see if there was actually a less-nefarious reason behind it. I could say maybe he wanted to have a powerful amazon with a lot of muscles, but still make her look like a woman and gave her larger breasts than the size we typically see on woman bodybuilders, but I don't know that, and you don't know why he went with that either.

Again, there's also a third character that is a woman that isn't drawn like this.

You are pretty clearly invested in being offended by these designs so it's not really surprising that the proof of their thoughtful and deliberate creation rubs you the wrong way. There are likely many other people in this thread who feel much the same way that you do. I can understand that you find the aesthetic distasteful and that your interpretation of the intent is a product of your perspective but I don't understand why people on your side of the fence are so determined to vilify the artist, deny the possibility that there's more to these designs than simple titillation and continue to paint the work as either base or sexist. It just seems spiteful at this point.

Nor did he do it to objectify women. What is your point? And Lol trying to bring realism into a fantasy game XD

Also I wonder how many female viewers are actually offended by this. My guess is not many.

I think both of them were immature-- the Kotaku writer for inserting personal snark into a press blurb, and the artist for responding with "well, if you have issues with sexualized women, you must be gay". I like some things about the art style, and I don't like some others.

Things I like/agree with:

• The women are muscular and can take care of themselves. They don't need to be rescued. That in of itself is feminist. Especially since the art is very Frank Frazetta-inspired, and he drew a lot of women being kidnapped or hanging onto a man's leg. It's a role reversal.
• Just because a character has large breasts doesn't mean she's there just to be ogled.
• Sexualization in of itself isn't bad. Some people are more comfortable with seeing more skin than others, though, and people who would prefer an option showing less skin doesn't make them Puritanical or whatever.
• The art itself is beautiful. Both the males and females do look great, even if I'm not crazy with some of the aesthetic choices. I couldn't draw something that good for an angry joke response. World needs more winking buff pin-up guys.

Things I don't like:

• Never quite understood Jell-O breast physics.
• Not super crazy about how high the slit in the Sorceresses' skirt goes, or how low her top goes, or how the barbarian has very little armor, but that's more of an aesthetic nitpick. Just because I would have designed her differently doesn't make his design wrong.
• The fact that the art is getting more attention than the gameplay doesn't bode well for the gameplay.
• I don't think spellcasters automatically have to be sexy. Just because it's a cliche doesn't mean someone couldn't do it differently.
• Not everyone wants to play someone sexy. There are several games I can think of where the protagonist isn't attractive, perhaps they're downright goofy-looking, even, and they're still fondly thought of.

Remember when video games were about having fun.

I fucking hate everyone.

So this is my first post on giantbomb, after reading through this "discussion" I was worked up enough to write something here.

please excuse my English/grammar

I am of Japanese descent and I lived there for a long time. With all the mud slinging going on here by presumably mostly white men about a Japanese artist first being sexist and then being homophobic, I would like to share a few cultural references.

First lets talk about the character design, hyper sexuality is actually pretty normal in Asia, for both men and women. With all the "oh she came straight out of hentai", "oh we all know what he was going for here, its not art" I would probably agree with all of those sentiment but the question is, why is that bad? Is the act of pandering terrible in and of it self? A lot of responses here on this thread seems to imply that japan need to grow up and respect women. I have a counter point to make, that japan is probably more progressive in term of catering to women in games than the western world ever could.

We have an entire genre created entirely for the sole purpose of "pandering" to female gamers/anime fans. Please look up Sengoku Basara, a series with the sole purpose of selling pretty boys to women gamer, please also look up Hetalia: Axis Powers and Ouran High School Host Club, among others. It is call BL(boys love) and it have a huge following in japan/asia mostly by gay/bi and female gamers. And with all the talk about getting women involve in creating games in the west, most of the creator in this genre are mostly women. So no japan doesn't only "pander" to young boys. I personally don't see the problem with pandering to both side of the fence, unless of cause we want to stop pandering altogether, which is bullshit in my eyes. I love women, I love looking at them. When I am alone with my gf I like her to dress sexily and I will dress in whatever uniform she wants as long as its a two way transaction. Also I would like to say something about the art in question, my gf like to dress "sexily" in ways a lot of commenters in here would call "pandering", dressing that way doesn't make her a slut nor does she intend to lure any teenage boys in. The way some people translate the dress code here is more telling about them than the artist. The artist is a perv, sure, but there is nothing wrong with that in itself, he drew his version of an ideal sexy witch and people call him sexist. Are you people serious? It is no wonder a lot of developers here are trying to move away from localizing their games.

Now lets talk about the homophobic thing, again in a lot of country in asia/Japan being gay or transgender is not as big of a deal as it is in the US or western country. We have gay bars here just like in the west, except a lot of straight go there to hang out with their gay friends all the time and we definitely don't have a bunch of actual homophobes standing outside the bar with signs cursing our gay friends. Of cause we still have family problem created from parents who cant except their son/daughter being gay but you will find that without religious constants it is really not that big of a deal. The image in question however is not a gay joke, how would i know? frankly because gay jokes are not really a thing here at least in a "oh man hes gay, gross!" kind of way but in a "haha watch out he will convert you" kind of way. Before going off on me about gay is not a choice stuff, I know that but I have seem my fair share of perfectly straight guys experimenting one day and just like it better, whether it be because its easier to hang out with just guys with benefit or whatever. What I am saying is that being gay/bi/lesbian doesn't have quite the same kind of negative connotation that it does in the us.

The most likely meaning of that picture is about the perceive notion that the western market just likes muscle bound men better. All you have to look at is the whole two version of Nier thing.

@shinjin977: Welcome to the forums. That was a very informative post. Also, your English is very understandable.

i'll reply to all in kind-

i agree 100% with everything above. it seems more about frazetta and paperback fantasy than ancient history. and big, prominent breasts are not sexism. i don't find his designs sexist. but do i feel like they look like something a 14 year old might design/be really into? absolutely.

i'm not offended by the designs, i'm not attempting to vilify the artist, and i'm not trying to be spiteful. to lay my opinion bare- i think kotaku was 100% right to claim these designs as seemingly immature or 14-year-old-ish. i also fully believe that they aren't sexist, and that they DO in fact have a right to exist. kotaku's being catty, no question about it. but they're not entirely wrong- they're just singling someone out (to what end, i'm not sure...if you follow their reasoning to completion they'd surely take issue with scantily-clad, buxom women which are pervasive throughout media). but in this particular case i think the buoyantly animated tits are there because the creator, much like 14 year old pubescent hetero boys, are really into tits. not because he's really into art history.

i didn't say his intent was to 'objectify women.' my point is- kotaku wasn't wrong when they said this reminded them of the musings of a 14 year old boy. that is all. and as far as women being offended? who knows. i'm not offended, i just find it somewhat immature. which is what i'd guess they'd find as well.

tl;dr- i was a pubescent hetero boy once- i remember what that was like. i also remember having a b. orchid poster. full disclosure- it wasn't because i was really into her move-set, martial arts, or socio-politcal heritage.

Some of the art for this game is fucking incredible. Who said 2D art in games is dead?

I've never played a Vanillaware game before, feel like I may take the plunge now when I get the time.

@endurancefun said:

Some of the art for this game is fucking incredible. Who said 2D art in games is dead?

I've never played a Vanillaware game before, feel like I may take the plunge now when I get the time.

Muramasa was the reason I got a Wii. On of the greatest games ever.

I don't think that anyone would deny that Kamitani is into his voluptuous character designs just as much as his slight, elven characters. I don't see anything wrong with enjoying those things and expressing that enjoyment, so I don't understand why people get riled up from that perspective either. This whole thread would be a headscratcher if it weren't for the current climate around here.

i can't speak for everyone else, but i agree there isn't anthing 'wrong' with his work. i just find it porn-y and his response similarly crass and misguided (if he didn't mean the homosexual overtones, perhaps come up with a more refined response? @brodehouse suggested a burka, which would have been a witty, albeit incendiary response. maybe something more puritanical and less 'current').

I am prone to being incendiary.

What bothers me more about the whole fiasco is not this East v West thing, it's Schreier's completely unchallenged insinuation that sexually promiscuous or revealing attire in video games is the cause of sexual harassment and assault of women at video game conventions. That he could say that and people focus more on Japanese social mores does stick in my craw. It would be like saying "We all know Doom is the reason why Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold killed those children at Columbine, and we should look at how violence is treated in Texas." Like, hold the phone.

As I said earlier, art imitates life. Life does not imitate art.

Kamitani could have handled that in a more clear and obvious fashion than he did, his apology suggests that he realizes that. I don't think that he was trying to make an incendiary statement so the whole burka/puritan thing would probably be going a bit too far.

What if... what if we don't put any humanoids in our video games from now on? The characters are either robots or various creatures. This would solve the problem, right? No one will get offended after this, right?

But then I'd want to fuck a robot.

@bocam: Even if it looks like R2D2?

To be fair I already want to fuck a robot

I liked this bit from Jerry Holkins' post today, particularly the reference to the "male power fantasy" that journalists always jump on in these types of discussions:

It’s very weird to pull up a story about a game with frankly visionary art and hear why it shouldn’t exist, or to hear what I supposedly fantasize about, or what kind of power I supposedly revere, and any attempt to defend oneself from these psychotic projections or to assert that creators may create is evidence of a dark seed sprouting in the heart. It’s an incredible state of affairs.

@sergio: If you don't think it looks like she's deliberately presenting her flesh in the middle of a fight (which makes no sense), if you really think that her revealing of body parts seems completely unforced and naturally occurring, then I guess there's not much else I can say here. To me it seems like a parody. A parody of the way female characteristics are often exaggerated in these characters. But apparently it isn't!

@hailinel: Why wouldn't I still be arguing? People keep replying, and I'm not yet tired of the discussion. To say I'm "hung up" is inaccurate though. I hardly have any qualms with this game. Like I said I don't intend to play it, and this is certainly not the first ridiculous female character design I've come across while watching game footage. Still, to say that she looks A-OK, not like a sexual object, and as mighty as her companions just seems ridiculous to me. Those are perhaps the needlessly largest, bounciest boobs I have ever seen in a video-game, and it's not even attractive. I'm only surprised you can't see her underwear - but perhaps that's her special attack.

I enjoy both video games and tits. If Vanillaware can shoe-horn golf and single malt scotch in the game also, I'll buy two copies.

@shinjin977: I was talking about non-humanoid looking robots.

@alexandersheen: if its this one with that voice my gf said shes down

My point being we as human can really get down with anything, this supposed problem goes well beyond the physical aspect, I think it is more of a perspective issue and perspective can very rarely be change.

@rebgav: To be fair, I edited that last part out before you posted your reply.

However, in that medieval fantasy setting, were it not for the crystal ball, I would not be able to tell if she was a slutty table maid or what. And it's not that she is simply sexualized: she is ridiculously exaggerated to the point of it not being attractive. Like I said in a recent post, she has perhaps the largest, bounciest boobs I have ever seen in a video-game and it just looks freaky. So it's not like they simply drew a beautiful woman: she looks like a bad parody of the way these games often portray female characteristics. I find that awkward, and it makes the character harder to take seriously for me, particularly as a fighter. But again, I won't even be playing this game simply because it doesn't interest me.
Also, and again, given the way she ridiculously reveals herself when she attacks I'm only surprised we can't see her underwear - but maybe that's her special finisher or something.

Hold on, why would the burka be too far?

We're comparing one group of people who want to make declarations about what is acceptable and appropriate clothing for fictional women in order protect their modesty... And another group of people that actually make declarations about what is acceptable and appropriate clothing for actual real life women, once again, in order to protect their modesty. Why are we timid about offending the latter case, who actually, actively disempower real life women, but have no problem whatsoever launching into how countries with actual equality are disempowering women by drawing sexy pictures? This is the acme of hypocrisy.

I understand I come on really strong, but _really, now_. A burka is not 'too far', it's absolutely apropos.

Honestly I'd have to side with the Kotaku article. Some of the characters in this game are just plain stupid looking. A critic pointing that out does not deserve to have such a smart-ass, snitty response as what Mr. Kamitani provided. It reflects badly on the receiver's end of the criticism because he can't take comments like this.

while i personally wouldn't have a problem with throwing a burka on the character, i could see how one could make the same point without kicking the metaphorical hornet's nest (prompting ultimately pointless conversations of islamophobia, etc). it probably would be more to-the-point if one were to draw upon american history anyway, such as

He didn't say it looked stupid, he said it was sexist and implied it was partly responsible for sexual harassment in the industry. I can understand not liking the art, but attacking it by trying to make bullshit connections to crime is an obvious attempt to censor by proxy. This sabre rattling and call-to-morals is exactly what Jack Thompson was doing five years ago to try and discredit the industry. It's ironic he calls it an embarrassment to be playing in public, morons like this writer make me embarrassed to share the same hobby.

@brodehouse: I don't know if you're referring to my post but I'd say that throwing a burka over the character seems like it's making a broader statement about social mores whereas the cheesecake dwarves were seemingly meant to be a light jab at aesthetic preferences.

@snail: Being hard to take seriously as a fighter, or specifically as a threat, is likely the intent behind her exaggerated form. If you look at this image and focus on the fact that her extremely ample body is in an explicitly provocative pose then you aren't noticing that she's also raising a skeletal warrior from the ground and I assume that's the idea. Her looks are there to disarm and distract, her undead horde are the actual threat.

Given the extremity of the other player-character and npc designs, it's not as though this is the one which is going too far, nor is it out of place. If she's "a bad parody" of an attractive woman, I can't imagine how you'd describe the rest of the cast. Obviously you aren't into the aesthetic and that's fine - It's more than fine, it's enough. The apparent need for people to justify their dislike is a bit silly, especially when it results in some of the weird, grasping arguments for why this thing I don't like is bad and wrong. When I look at the attempts at realism in videogame design I tend to find that I don't like the visuals and that the idea that "realism" is the goal of technological improvement in the medium is a concept which I find deeply off-putting and I feel okay about just saying that without having to justify it in some broader, more "meaningful" context. I feel that if we were all more confident in our prerogative to like or dislike something and to allow others to do the same we'd all have a lot less to argue about on 'teh internets.'

@shinjin977: Thank you for providing that post. The cultural context here is so important but I felt out of place trying to provide it, since I'm only an observer of the culture and not a member of it. Too bad most people won't read that thoughtful rebuttal. I appreciated it though, you made my morning.

Because he wasn't looking to draw an entire picture from scratch and instead pulled some art from the same game that properly displayed the juxtaposition of extremes within his style?

@mellotronrules: What do you have against pilgrims?!

@shinjin977: I'm glad I'm not the only one who felt Kamitani's response wasn't in any way homophobic.

My personal experience backs this up as well.

Anyway, Giant Bombへようこそ！

women of ILL REPUTE. ALL OF THEM. do you SEE how MUCH WRIST SHE IS SHOWING IN THAT PHOTO?

I'm with you on this. This just looks like a walking pair of boobs. Congratulations, Kami-thing-whatever his name is, for being what you've been accused of. Also, if they are supposedly super at ease with sex, why do they blur out their own dicks in their porn movies?

Context, get some.

Someone posted a response to the Kotaku article that you may find interesting. Actually everyone may find it interesting. The character may have been designed around breasts, but maybe not in a sexual way. The post dissects how the game takes a lot of cues from other art forms. Also how Vanillaware/Kamitani has a history of giving big breasts to their Necromancer characters. Which creates an interesting juxtaposition when you consider that in lots of ancient tribes that worshiped many gods, fertility gods were always depicted with large breasts, because of how the mother feeds her child. The post explains it a lot more eloquently than i can. You should read it.

....weird tangent but okay; because they've had strict anti-obscenity laws since the mid-19th century (which have mostly been ignored since about the mid-19th century). When the Americans occupied the country post-WW2 they lifted most censorship and restrictions on free-speech with the exception of "subversive" political material and pornography. It is often cited that the continued obscene status of depictions of genitalia even in pornography is the driving force behind both the diversification and extremity of Japanese erotica.

What?? That makes too much sense, he'll just ignore it and continue to complain.

you guys are welcome to read beyond the latest posts in the thread- you might find that the 'fertility goddess' bit has already been mentioned and discussed.

While what you're saying is in there somewhere, the main take-away I'm getting from the art director's twitter response is *that it's okay*. Drawing ludicrously busty women is okay. Same goes for muscly sweaty hairy dwarfs bearhugging each other. The Kotaku writer implies that it's not okay, when clearly it is. The message is, don't be a cunt. Just let it be.

In Japanese culture, the concept of sin didn't traditionally exist. Shame however does. There is no sin in creating what you want. Trying to shame somebody by implying that what he did is a sinful act is wrong. Let the guy be. Let me be. Let boys be boys. There's no sin or shame in it. It's who we are, and we've nothing to apologize for. It's not like he murdered somebody, he just drew a ludicrously busty hotty of the female persuasion. And then he drew three male charaters that are all more muscular, more hairy, and overall a whole lot more manly than pretty much any man walking this earth.

FYI sin is externalized universal wrongness, whilst shame is internal, its wrongness is based upon your own truth.

Just think if the roles would be reversed. Everytime somebody creates some pandering piece of art, that puts women on a pedestal, some man-activist would start crying havok and say *you're a pussywipped little lickspittle suckup whiteknight brownnose eunuch*. You do *man-kind* a disservice and weaken our position in the war of the sexes for dominance. It's just as silly, only less expected and accepted, and it's not like there aren't areas where men are discriminated against either. Just think of custody battles in divorces.

Since the context of my reply seems to be lost on a lot of people here, I will just sum it up so people can better understand.

Yes, this is pandering. Is this sexist? No, japan doesn't just pander to young boys in which case we would really be sexist, no we pander to EVERYONE. If you don't believe me look up everything i mentioned in my last reply. Here is another example, Devil May Cry's Dante had a huge female following in japan and they even went on to add his twin quiet-type pretty boy Vergil. Why? Because some of the fan does not like Dante's cocky attitude. Now that's pandering done right. Then came DmC which was a good game but they sold only like a third of what 4 sold. If you think they didn't lose the female gamer base because of the new look you would be naive. http://www.siliconera.com/2013/01/25/dmc-devil-may-cry-may-have-failed-to-attract-casual-fans-in-japan/

Yes a lot of female gamers are considered "casual" in japan but not in the same sense as the west. Casual means they are only interested in a small number of games instead of devouring every release every week like i do. they play their set amount of games but they play alot. My gf sss the original DMC (side not how many of you guys can do that? I have been trying for like 4 years) but she cant beat the first level of halo for example.

This artist disgust you? that's fine move along but don't try to put this on some feminist agenda it puts a bad name on real feminist. The real feminist are fighting oppression in a real life threatening situation, to put that noble label on this money making click bait of an article from kotaku is degrading.

You want to see a feminist fighting to end female oppression? Google the current prime minister of Thailand, she's beautiful, capable, intelligence and she is single-handedly inspiring an entire nation of women. She was threaten, slandered and look down up on and this she is here. THAT is feminism not criticizing a work of an artist however much you find it repulsive. I feel like all these "journalist" who thinks they are progressive are really doing themselves and the feminist agenda a disservice by telling people THIS is what they care about but not the 13 year old in Somalia that was rape and then stone to death for Adultery. I don't see anyone write about that if they really feel like furthering this agenda but no this is the straw that broke the camel's back. This is the classic case of Rome's Colosseum.

Damn sorry I was planning to sum it up short and sweet.

Yeah, Satoru Iwata was promoted to Global President of Nintendo and also replaced someone else to become head of Nintendo America. Reggie Fils Aime reports directly to him now.

Yeah, I read about it after reading your post, which came as a surprise since this thread was the first place I heard about it. Not to get off-topic, but hopefully the change in structure works out for them.

Sorry. I just really want that post to get more eyes on it, i think people need to realize that can be more to character art than what meets the eye.

@rebgav said:

@brodehouse: I don't know if you're referring to my post but I'd say that throwing a burka over the character seems like it's making a broader statement about social mores whereas the cheesecake dwarves were seemingly meant to be a light jab at aesthetic preferences.

@snail: Being hard to take seriously as a fighter, or specifically as a threat, is likely the intent behind her exaggerated form. If you look at this image and focus on the fact that her extremely ample body is in an explicitly provocative pose then you aren't noticing that she's also raising a skeletal warrior from the ground and I assume that's the idea. Her looks are there to disarm and distract, her undead horde are the actual threat.

Given the extremity of the other player-character and npc designs, it's not as though this is the one which is going too far, nor is it out of place. If she's "a bad parody" of an attractive woman, I can't imagine how you'd describe the rest of the cast. Obviously you aren't into the aesthetic and that's fine - It's more than fine, it's enough. The apparent need for people to justify their dislike is a bit silly, especially when it results in some of the weird, grasping arguments for why this thing I don't like is bad and wrong. When I look at the attempts at realism in videogame design I tend to find that I don't like the visuals and that the idea that "realism" is the goal of technological improvement in the medium is a concept which I find deeply off-putting and I feel okay about just saying that without having to justify it in some broader, more "meaningful" context. I feel that if we were all more confident in our prerogative to like or dislike something and to allow others to do the same we'd all have a lot less to argue about on 'teh internets.'

I hadn't even noticed she was summoning a skeleton. I'd call that masterful art design. Fuck Kotaku for disrespecting the artist.

After spending some time looking at various twitters regarding this whole thing the only concrete thing I've come up with is I'm SO DAMN TIRED OF PEOPLE FIGHTING OVER GAMES. This isn't an indictment of anyone on here on either side of the argument (which has actually been pretty civil mostly) or anyone else really. In fact this post has no point and I shouldn't have bothered. I'm just...so tired of it.

I need to read this but all I have to say ... for the first few lines of the kotaku response is that mayhaps this games was designed and targeted for straight young males and the art reflects that and no one has the right to demand a change for that. If the game had another target aduience then I would say yes you are right but really ? Come on stopthis sanctimonius "I NEED TO CHANGE VIDEOGAMES" bullcrap , bullcrap. Sheesh

I didn't say that he said it looked stupid. I said that myself. I referred to him pointing out that it looks like it was created by a 14-year-old. It is in extremely bad taste and is just dull and unimaginative at this point. I don't see any connection to crime because I didn't read the link, just what was posted on the OP because I really don't care that much. I was mainly just pissed at the way Kamitani responded. Kotaku are beyond redemption but the developer responding in this manner is just dumb.

@xyzygy: Alright. It's silly to endorse an article you haven't read, clearly seems that you don't actually agree with what the Kotaku writer said. Though I can understand not wanting to visit Kotaku, I wish threads like this would use a freaking paste bin to bypass the awful Kotaku layout and make it easier to read what is relevant. I also don't agree the art style is directed at 14-year-old boys. For one, the artist himself likes the busty female design archetype, he is not a 14-year-old boy. Considering the niche genre and look of the game, it's more likely this game would be aimed to appeal to an older audience who appreciate 2D brawlers or the art style.