@Ace829 said:
men are just as much victims of sexism as women are in a more concise list.
Heh. Hahahahaha. Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
Sexism in Gaming
@Salarn:
Most if not all of those examples on fatuglyorslutty.com seem to be more or less examples of John Gabriel's greater internet fuckwad theory. Those are the same people that mic spam obscenities or are trolling. I think if anything it's more shocking that I'll normally and more commonly see "nigger" typed out when ever I log into a game for little to no reason then a player being sexist.
Once again, it is hypocritical to attack what is deemed a sexist portrayal and its supporters, but to not go after females that also support it. That was my point. I can't get any more clear than that.
And what product is marketed to exclude females? And again with that 47%. There was nothing in that data that suggested women were purchasing or would buy non-casual games. I don't think the industry makes non-social games with the intent of alienating anyone, and, at the moment, the biggest selling games, according to the study that suggests that 47%, also shows most money in the industry is made by Shooters, Sports Games, and Action, which according to fem blogs are more male oriented. Those types combined create 53.9% of market sales. The Casual games and RPGs only make up 12.9% of the market.
The numbers are more even in the Computer game market, but that is a drastically smaller market. And even so, the distribution for Male to Female gamers is, at best, 50-50.
@ultimatepunchrod said:
@mystakin I read that comic, and while it was kind of clever, I have to say that I disagreed with it. It doesn't seem fair to put all women into a category that says they like the version of GL or any other super hero that the female in the comic drew to prove her point just like it isn't fair to say that all men think the images of Catwoman you're referring to are attractive. I think she looks kind of gross, and I don't want to look at that and I'm the target demographic for that comic. I mean, do women not find muscly and heroic men attractive? The comic also seems to suggest that all men want to look like the super heroes in comics which is another thing that I don't really agree with. I want to be fit/healthy, but looking like Batman would be absurd and I'd basically have to dedicate my life to body building to even get close. I think that comic grossly oversimplifies the issue.
The article also points out only the worst aspects of females in comics, but I do agree that women need to cover up in comic books especially the Star Sapphires. Those costumes make me feel uncomfortable when I'm reading GL comics (which I really like).
Keep in mind, we're working with averages here. Obviously there's going to be men who don't like sexualized women and women who like buff, muscly men... but that doesn't seem to be the case. Think about the type of male actors in Rom Coms and compare them to the type of characters in comics.
@mystakin said:
@phantomzxro said:
@mystakin said:
@crithon said:
I have found her videos a bit trivial and she seems to have the same school of presentation to conservative commentators. I think her biggest problem is she focuses on trival issues and never grasps the reality. If it's enough to get us talking about how about "equal rights for women"? then I'm all for that, but trolling how mia is a "fighting fuck toy" that's just silly
Providing concrete examples of common sexist tropes in video games is... silly and trivial?
I feel you may be jumping the gun and taking his words out of context i kinda agree with crithon after watching i few of her videos. I'm all for equal representation of women along with races and other sexual orientations in games. but i do find that she uses a lot of little/simple examples to build up her agreement kinda of the low hanging fruit if you will. Making issue with every "sexed up female characters" and every stereotypical female.
When i find the real problem is simply having a balance. You will never stop stereotypes but you don't have to as long as you have other deeper characters in force. Because at the end of the day some women want to play a super sexy chick sometime too so it not just a men fantasy all the time.
What's wrong with her examples, exactly? I'm not understanding what makes her examples "simple." Anita's web series is not about stopping stereotypes, it's about promoting an understanding about which stereotypes are most common and what makes them harmful.
I'm all for more understanding and making everyone more aware of the many issues we face when it comes to under representing our wildly diverse world we live in. Her example's such as picking on Mai in a fighting game that has a good balance of female characters such as King. When Dead or Alive marketing of boob tech seems more of a worthy complaint.
Her list of sexist Christmas songs which included
Mariah Carey - All i want for Christmas - Reason - song being about a women only needing a men for Christmas (gifted a man as she says)
Many artist - Santa baby - reason - supports the gold digger trope of women
Many artist - baby, it's cold outside - reason - date rape song as its known because the guy in the song is being manipulative in keeping the women inside for sex
Her point of why man should hate twilight
As she says not because Edward is a sensitive guy but because he is a manipulative creepy stalker.
Now all these points may have some truth or merit in some form but not in the context she is putting them in. With the Christmas songs for example why in her point on baby it's cold outside she is quick to think the men is up to no good and only wants sex out of the ordeal. In all a want for Christmas i see nothing wrong with the song being about the simple fact of a women wanting to see her men for Christmas.
Now for twilight why must man hate it because Edward is a manipulative creepy stalker because their are many people who fit that bill. Also last time i checked vampires are manipulative, creepy, and born stalkers. I think we should take offense to how weak of a female character Bella is seeming to be ruled by her romantic leads.
So to close I'm not saying her message is not important because it is and i support the fight to have better female leads in games I'm down for that. but not all feminist movements/objectives are equal because sometimes they complain about the small stuff to have a easy argument while tearing down men or men stereotypes as if its fact. which again not to belittle how women are misrepresented many times over but it not a one way street many other areas of our world are misrepresented too, along with sometimes its ok to be sexy.
These things. I don't get it. Nobody stops and thinks about how every male character is brad pitt macho mcgoodlooking. I mean seriously? Why do girls get all the sympathy. I want to be Nathan Drake and tough and stuff, goddamnit!
@sissylion said:
@Ace829 said:
men are just as much victims of sexism as women are in a more concise list.
Heh. Hahahahaha. Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
Yup, typical sexist. Men have to suck it up or be laughed at
@phantomzxro said:
@mystakin said:
@phantomzxro said:
@mystakin said:
@crithon said:
I have found her videos a bit trivial and she seems to have the same school of presentation to conservative commentators. I think her biggest problem is she focuses on trival issues and never grasps the reality. If it's enough to get us talking about how about "equal rights for women"? then I'm all for that, but trolling how mia is a "fighting fuck toy" that's just silly
Providing concrete examples of common sexist tropes in video games is... silly and trivial?
I feel you may be jumping the gun and taking his words out of context i kinda agree with crithon after watching i few of her videos. I'm all for equal representation of women along with races and other sexual orientations in games. but i do find that she uses a lot of little/simple examples to build up her agreement kinda of the low hanging fruit if you will. Making issue with every "sexed up female characters" and every stereotypical female.
When i find the real problem is simply having a balance. You will never stop stereotypes but you don't have to as long as you have other deeper characters in force. Because at the end of the day some women want to play a super sexy chick sometime too so it not just a men fantasy all the time.
What's wrong with her examples, exactly? I'm not understanding what makes her examples "simple." Anita's web series is not about stopping stereotypes, it's about promoting an understanding about which stereotypes are most common and what makes them harmful.
I'm all for more understanding and making everyone more aware of the many issues we face when it comes to under representing our wildly diverse world we live in. Her example's such as picking on Mai in a fighting game that has a good balance of female characters such as King. When Dead or Alive marketing of boob tech seems more of a worthy complaint.
Her list of sexist Christmas songs which included
Mariah Carey - All i want for Christmas - Reason - song being about a women only needing a men for Christmas (gifted a man as she says)
Many artist - Santa baby - reason - supports the gold digger trope of women
Many artist - baby, it's cold outside - reason - date rape song as its known because the guy in the song is being manipulative in keeping the women inside for sex
Her point of why man should hate twilight
As she says not because Edward is a sensitive guy but because he is a manipulative creepy stalker.
Now all these points may have some truth or merit in some form but not in the context she is putting them in. With the Christmas songs for example why in her point on baby it's cold outside she is quick to think the men is up to no good and only wants sex out of the ordeal. In all a want for Christmas i see nothing wrong with the song being about the simple fact of a women wanting to see her men for Christmas.
Now for twilight why must man hate it because Edward is a manipulative creepy stalker because their are many people who fit that bill. Also last time i checked vampires are manipulative, creepy, and born stalkers. I think we should take offense to how weak of a female character Bella is seeming to be ruled by her romantic leads.
So to close I'm not saying her message is not important because it is and i support the fight to have better female leads in games I'm down for that. but not all feminist movements/objectives are equal because sometimes they complain about the small stuff to have a easy argument while tearing down men or men stereotypes as if its fact. which again not to belittle how women are misrepresented many times over but it not a one way street many other areas of our world are misrepresented too, along with sometimes its ok to be sexy.
I will agree that the Christmas song video is one of her weaker videos. Baby, It's Cold Outside is all about a man disobeying the "no means no" principle. She wants to leave, but he continues to insist she stays and shows no interest in what she actually wants. That's what makes it offensive. All I Want for Christmas promotes a very common trope that a woman's #1 most wanted thing is a man. The song isn't bad on its own, it's a problem because it's part of a larger number of examples that all promote that idea together. She was kinda stretching in this video anyway, I believe. Part of being critical about media is also being critical of the people who are trying to inform.
Men should hate Edward because he is a manipulative creepy stalker and Twilight GLORIFIES that. Bella being a weak female character is also a valid reason Twilight is awful, but she focuses on Edward because it's a misrepresentation of men, who she's trying to appeal to.
@Discoman said:
@Salarn:
Most if not all of those examples on fatuglyorslutty.com seem to be more or less examples of John Gabriel's greater internet fuckwad theory. Those are the same people that mic spam obscenities or are trolling. I think if anything it's more shocking that I'll normally and more commonly see "nigger" typed out when ever I log into a game for little to no reason then a player being sexist.
Once again, it is hypocritical to attack what is deemed a sexist portrayal and its supporters, but to not go after females that also support it. That was my point. I can't get any more clear than that.
And what product is marketed to exclude females? And again with that 47%. There was nothing in that data that suggested women were purchasing or would buy non-casual games. I don't think the industry makes non-social games with the intent of alienating anyone, and, at the moment, the biggest selling games, according to the study that suggests that 47%, also shows most money in the industry is made by Shooters, Sports Games, and Action, which according to fem blogs are more male oriented. Those types combined create 53.9% of market sales. The Casual games and RPGs only make up 12.9% of the market.
The numbers are more even in the Computer game market, but that is a drastically smaller market. And even so, the distribution for Male to Female gamers is, at best, 50-50.
There is a difference, if a woman choose to dress up as a character in cosplay that's her choice. However, you can't compare that to situations where females are portrayed by the game industry with is staffed by less than 20% female employees on average. Someone choosing for themselves is not the same as having something chosen for them. Yes the internet is a pretty terrible place, there are a lot of jerks. However, the insults being slung around are more often than not race/gender/nationality/etc... based. Of course, if one happens to be a strait white male gamer, these insults are pretty much meaningless since they don't apply, and makes it real easy to hand wave and say "Oh get over it, it's just the internet".
Products that are marketed to exclude females? Any game where women are used as prizes and trophies, any game that doesn't allow for female avatars as part of character customization. You have the hitman trailer that puts women in fetish gear to be assassins while agent 47 wears something believable, tomb raider where almost being raped is just a character building experience, the cross assault event, or countless other games where female characters are being made first as bikini models before anything else goes into their development. Even if marketers don't go out of their way to include under represented gamers, they could at least not throw them under the bus to try and capture more strait white male gamers.
(You linked the 2011 stats, the 2012 ones are a little different)
Still the data isn't exacting down to every detail, nobody is saying women don't play sports games (except marketers) and nobody is saying guys don't play casual games (you see them in marketing). The point I've said a few times is this is a chicken/egg problem, my stance is that if women will play any game that is welcoming to them. Using the fact that women won't play games where they are marginalized to support marginalizing women in said games is not a strong argument.
@mystakin said:
I will agree that the Christmas song video is one of her weaker videos. Baby, It's Cold Outside is all about a man disobeying the "no means no" principle. She wants to leave, but he continues to insist she stays and shows no interest in what she actually wants. That's what makes it offensive. All I Want for Christmas promotes a very common trope that a woman's #1 most wanted thing is a man. The song isn't bad on its own, it's a problem because it's part of a larger number of examples that all promote that idea together.
I'm going to chime in here. I saw that video and found it mostly ridiculous, though I'll agree she's right about Baby, It's Cold Outside.
I don't think "All I want for Christmas" is signaling all women just want a man at all. It's a love with silly wordplay tied to christmas. I'd say, on the whole, that love songs are pretty big from both sexes. I could just as easily say any given male-sung love song is promoting that all that's important to men is getting a woman. You might also consider that MC co-wrote the song herself.
@TheHumanDove said:
These things. I don't get it. Nobody stops and thinks about how every male character is brad pitt macho mcgoodlooking. I mean seriously? Why do girls get all the sympathy. I want to be Nathan Drake and tough and stuff, goddamnit!
Have you stopped to think about it? You said it in your own words.
"I want to be Nathan Drake and tough and stuff."
Being Nathan Drake is a fantasy for you, a "power fantasy" it's something you aspire to be. Look at many of the roles of females, sure they maybe some and I can't speak for all women, but how many do you think aspire to be a trophy or a prize? How many want to be in the background when the male characters save the world?
When you see the bikini females in games, it's a sexual fantasy for the male gamer. Characters added to make the male lead be more accomplished, more powerful, more dominating, and since the male character is a power fantasy for many male players it then leads to the whole crux of this issue. Games are overly focused on pleasing the strait white male audience.
How many female gamers do you think want to be Ms. Nobrains Bigtits?
@Harkat said:
@mystakin said:
I will agree that the Christmas song video is one of her weaker videos. Baby, It's Cold Outside is all about a man disobeying the "no means no" principle. She wants to leave, but he continues to insist she stays and shows no interest in what she actually wants. That's what makes it offensive. All I Want for Christmas promotes a very common trope that a woman's #1 most wanted thing is a man. The song isn't bad on its own, it's a problem because it's part of a larger number of examples that all promote that idea together.
I'm going to chime in here. I saw that video and found it mostly ridiculous, though I'll agree she's right about Baby, It's Cold Outside.
I don't think "All I want for Christmas" is signaling all women just want a man at all. It's a love with silly wordplay tied to christmas. I'd say, on the whole, that love songs are pretty big from both sexes. I could just as easily say any given male-sung love song is promoting that all that's important to men is getting a woman. You might also consider that MC co-wrote the song herself.
Woman can write sexist material just as easily as men can. As I stated in my post, by itself, All I Want for Christmas is harmless. But when you combine it with the common media trope that all women need is a man (which there is no equivalent trope for men needing women), it can be viewed as harmful.
@mystakin said:
@phantomzxro said:
@mystakin said:
@phantomzxro said:
@mystakin said:
@crithon said:
I will agree that the Christmas song video is one of her weaker videos. Baby, It's Cold Outside is all about a man disobeying the "no means no" principle. She wants to leave, but he continues to insist she stays and shows no interest in what she actually wants. That's what makes it offensive. All I Want for Christmas promotes a very common trope that a woman's #1 most wanted thing is a man. The song isn't bad on its own, it's a problem because it's part of a larger number of examples that all promote that idea together. She was kinda stretching in this video anyway, I believe. Part of being critical about media is also being critical of the people who are trying to inform.
Men should hate Edward because he is a manipulative creepy stalker and Twilight GLORIFIES that. Bella being a weak female character is also a valid reason Twilight is awful, but she focuses on Edward because it's a misrepresentation of men, who she's trying to appeal to.
True and all that sounds good but once again i feel its the low hanging fruit, nothing wrong with a women wanting a men because I'm sure you can find many songs about a men wanting a women but that's ok. Also your point of Edward being a misrepresentation of a men is a point i find she lacks in making, which would be a more fair argument.
@mystakin said:
@Harkat said:
@mystakin said:
I will agree that the Christmas song video is one of her weaker videos. Baby, It's Cold Outside is all about a man disobeying the "no means no" principle. She wants to leave, but he continues to insist she stays and shows no interest in what she actually wants. That's what makes it offensive. All I Want for Christmas promotes a very common trope that a woman's #1 most wanted thing is a man. The song isn't bad on its own, it's a problem because it's part of a larger number of examples that all promote that idea together.
I'm going to chime in here. I saw that video and found it mostly ridiculous, though I'll agree she's right about Baby, It's Cold Outside.
I don't think "All I want for Christmas" is signaling all women just want a man at all. It's a love with silly wordplay tied to christmas. I'd say, on the whole, that love songs are pretty big from both sexes. I could just as easily say any given male-sung love song is promoting that all that's important to men is getting a woman. You might also consider that MC co-wrote the song herself.
Woman can write sexist material just as easily as men can. As I stated in my post, by itself, All I Want for Christmas is harmless. But when you combine it with the common media trope that all women need is a man (which there is no equivalent trope for men needing women), it can be viewed as harmful.
Fair, fair. I guess I really don't consider these sexist cultural ideas so threatening because I'm born & raised in Norway, one of the most feminist places on earth. There is no "All women need a man" attitude over here, and being 17 I haven't really encountered a time when it was such.
Finally, I don't believe you answered my earlier question about what the issue was with women being "men with breasts", which one of Feminist Frequency episodes focuses on. I'm still baffled by this issue, so I'd appreciate an argument/explanation. Isn't women being allowed in male spaces without much ado precisely the goal?
@phantomzxro said:
@mystakin said:
@phantomzxro said:
@mystakin said:
@phantomzxro said:
@mystakin said:
@crithon said:
I will agree that the Christmas song video is one of her weaker videos. Baby, It's Cold Outside is all about a man disobeying the "no means no" principle. She wants to leave, but he continues to insist she stays and shows no interest in what she actually wants. That's what makes it offensive. All I Want for Christmas promotes a very common trope that a woman's #1 most wanted thing is a man. The song isn't bad on its own, it's a problem because it's part of a larger number of examples that all promote that idea together. She was kinda stretching in this video anyway, I believe. Part of being critical about media is also being critical of the people who are trying to inform.
Men should hate Edward because he is a manipulative creepy stalker and Twilight GLORIFIES that. Bella being a weak female character is also a valid reason Twilight is awful, but she focuses on Edward because it's a misrepresentation of men, who she's trying to appeal to.
True and all that sounds good but once again i feel its the low hanging fruit, nothing wrong with a women wanting a men because I'm sure you can find many songs about a men wanting a women but that's ok. Also your point of Edward being a misrepresentation of a men is a point i find she lacks in making, which would be a more fair argument.
The thing is, women needing men is a stereotype, men needing women isn't. If anything, a song about a woman wanting a man is more similar to a song about a man having sex with tons of women and never getting emotionally attached. Those two songs play into the stereotypes of their respective genders. All I Want for Christmas plays into a stereotype, but if that stereotype didn't exist, it wouldn't be a problem.
The point that she should be more explicit about Edward being a misrepresentation of men is a fine critique of her video.
@Harkat said:
@mystakin said:
@Harkat said:
@mystakin said:
I will agree that the Christmas song video is one of her weaker videos. Baby, It's Cold Outside is all about a man disobeying the "no means no" principle. She wants to leave, but he continues to insist she stays and shows no interest in what she actually wants. That's what makes it offensive. All I Want for Christmas promotes a very common trope that a woman's #1 most wanted thing is a man. The song isn't bad on its own, it's a problem because it's part of a larger number of examples that all promote that idea together.
I'm going to chime in here. I saw that video and found it mostly ridiculous, though I'll agree she's right about Baby, It's Cold Outside.
I don't think "All I want for Christmas" is signaling all women just want a man at all. It's a love with silly wordplay tied to christmas. I'd say, on the whole, that love songs are pretty big from both sexes. I could just as easily say any given male-sung love song is promoting that all that's important to men is getting a woman. You might also consider that MC co-wrote the song herself.
Woman can write sexist material just as easily as men can. As I stated in my post, by itself, All I Want for Christmas is harmless. But when you combine it with the common media trope that all women need is a man (which there is no equivalent trope for men needing women), it can be viewed as harmful.
Fair, fair. I guess I really don't consider these sexist cultural ideas so threatening or relevant because I'm from Norway, one of the most feminist places on earth. The general attitude is mos def not that "All women need a man" over here.
i agree with you Harkat but if women themselves are making sexist material then a find this issue really hard to combat. Also given that a lot of feminist arguments is often a one sided one. How do you police sexist when feminist don't have the answer themselves? I find another one of her points of TV tropes of the straw feminist who is unfairly seeing a feminist movement in every little thing misrepresents feminist and paint them in a bad light funny, given that so quick that many of her points can fall right into that very same trope.
@mystakin said:
@phantomzxro said:
@mystakin said:
@phantomzxro said:
@mystakin said:
@phantomzxro said:
@mystakin said:
@crithon said:
I will agree that the Christmas song video is one of her weaker videos. Baby, It's Cold Outside is all about a man disobeying the "no means no" principle. She wants to leave, but he continues to insist she stays and shows no interest in what she actually wants. That's what makes it offensive. All I Want for Christmas promotes a very common trope that a woman's #1 most wanted thing is a man. The song isn't bad on its own, it's a problem because it's part of a larger number of examples that all promote that idea together. She was kinda stretching in this video anyway, I believe. Part of being critical about media is also being critical of the people who are trying to inform.
Men should hate Edward because he is a manipulative creepy stalker and Twilight GLORIFIES that. Bella being a weak female character is also a valid reason Twilight is awful, but she focuses on Edward because it's a misrepresentation of men, who she's trying to appeal to.
True and all that sounds good but once again i feel its the low hanging fruit, nothing wrong with a women wanting a men because I'm sure you can find many songs about a men wanting a women but that's ok. Also your point of Edward being a misrepresentation of a men is a point i find she lacks in making, which would be a more fair argument.
The thing is, women needing men is a stereotype, men needing women isn't. If anything, a song about a woman wanting a man is more similar to a song about a man having sex with tons of women and never getting emotionally attached. Those two songs play into the stereotypes of their respective genders. All I Want for Christmas plays into a stereotype, but if that stereotype didn't exist, it wouldn't be a problem.
The point that she should be more explicit about Edward being a misrepresentation of men is a fine critique of her video.
Well i can come to somewhat of an agreement with that. Even if i still don't buy that women needing a men = stereotype men needing a women = not a stereotype given that in the song is clearly referring to the women wanting one man and not just men in general which is different in my book. To the last point that all i would want in her videos she does and the upcoming video game tropes is that it comes off as fair and not just women are always misrepresented while men are always justly represented because it a man's power fantasy.
@phantomzxro said:
@mystakin said:
@phantomzxro said:
@mystakin said:
@phantomzxro said:
@mystakin said:
@phantomzxro said:
@mystakin said:
@crithon said:
I will agree that the Christmas song video is one of her weaker videos. Baby, It's Cold Outside is all about a man disobeying the "no means no" principle. She wants to leave, but he continues to insist she stays and shows no interest in what she actually wants. That's what makes it offensive. All I Want for Christmas promotes a very common trope that a woman's #1 most wanted thing is a man. The song isn't bad on its own, it's a problem because it's part of a larger number of examples that all promote that idea together. She was kinda stretching in this video anyway, I believe. Part of being critical about media is also being critical of the people who are trying to inform.
Men should hate Edward because he is a manipulative creepy stalker and Twilight GLORIFIES that. Bella being a weak female character is also a valid reason Twilight is awful, but she focuses on Edward because it's a misrepresentation of men, who she's trying to appeal to.
True and all that sounds good but once again i feel its the low hanging fruit, nothing wrong with a women wanting a men because I'm sure you can find many songs about a men wanting a women but that's ok. Also your point of Edward being a misrepresentation of a men is a point i find she lacks in making, which would be a more fair argument.
The thing is, women needing men is a stereotype, men needing women isn't. If anything, a song about a woman wanting a man is more similar to a song about a man having sex with tons of women and never getting emotionally attached. Those two songs play into the stereotypes of their respective genders. All I Want for Christmas plays into a stereotype, but if that stereotype didn't exist, it wouldn't be a problem.
The point that she should be more explicit about Edward being a misrepresentation of men is a fine critique of her video.
Well i can come to somewhat of an agreement with that. Even if i still don't buy that women needing a men = stereotype men needing a women = not a stereotype given that in the song is clearly referring to the women wanting one man and not just men in general which is different in my book. To the last point that all i would want in her videos she does and the upcoming video game tropes is that it comes off as fair and not just women are always misrepresented while men are always justly represented because it a man's power fantasy.
In her 2-part series on Lego she touches on male stereotypes in children's advertising as well. She's a feminist blog, though, so asking her to go over male stereotypes is sort of like asking a movie review to also cover TV shows. They certainly COULD, but it's not their focus. Male power fantasies are not proper representations of men, I don't want to suggest that. But white male stereotypes are typically less harmful because there are so many more realistic white male characters than realistic female characters. They're still harmful, but misrepresentation of women is a bigger issue.
@mystakin: i see your point but i don't find one sided viewed arguments to help better the overall problem. I would also say that focusing on one person's problems while belittling others is not the answer. I would also argue the white men stereotype is almost just as an important issue. I won't go into overstating that fact because I am African American myself which comes with some bias to the table i know but how many times has a form of media been completely devoid of any kind of black, Hispanic, Asian, Indian, etc characters within the world. Which then they are often put into respected roles of a token character when given the option to add one or two characters.
All in all that's my views and i think you made fair points and I'm sure most people all want the same thing but the problem is getting to that point. This was a good discussion and I always think it's great to debate views in a civil matter because that is the only way we will move forward when everyone has a voice and can put in their two cents.
@TheSlothKing: Try replying to the points I'm making instead of trying to pick apart the minutiae. Saying things like "127 Hours is based on this book" just means that you completely missed the point I was making.
@Example1013: I didn't say it was based on a book. Although the guy did write a book about what happened to him(it is based on true events), which would make your argument about wanting the people in movies to stop being white males invalid in this case. Hopefully you never work in an entertainment industry because you are an idiot ,because you don't make a movie based on a person's life and change them into someone they are not.
@Example1013: Who's the adult here? I asked you a question and you respond with an insult? Perhaps I misinterpreted what you said, but it came across to me that you think that it's somehow a bad thing that the majority of the lead characters in video games or films are white males. Why does that matter?
@SathingtonWaltz said:
you think that it's somehow a bad thing that the majority of the lead characters in video games or films are white males. Why does that matter?
There are more women in the world than men. Asia has significantly more humans in it than any other continent. Practically all video games and films feature white, male protagonists.
Does something seem wrong with the juxtaposition of those statistics and that fact?
@depecheload: Jesus Christ, that person isn't a fucking sexist. People throw these words around like they are nothing. Protip: Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they are a racist/sexist/misogynist/ etc. It just means they disagree with you. One thing that I've found is that more often than not, the people spouting off how much against "racism" and "sexism" they are, the more sexist and racist they actually are.
@PixelPrinny: The gender "pay gap" disappears entirely when you parse those numbers. Men work more hours on average and hold higher positions on average than women, and it's not because of sexism. It has to do with the career choices that each gender typically pick, men picking more techincal higher paying ones than women. The idea that every employer just hates women and pays them less is pants of head retarded.
@SathingtonWaltz: Hullo Mr Strawman, how are you doing this fine day? Pretty good? Me too! I know you probably don't want to read this whole report so let me point you to pages 68-70. I look forward to your next reply that tries to blow off the whole gender inequality argument by pointing out a perceived flaw in one example that is used to support it.
@PixelPrinny: Why are you so defensive when somebody presents an opinion different than your own? I read the report, and I shall alter my viewpoint accordingly based on the facts presented. However, the report explicitly states that after the statistics are parsed and altered to compensate for personal choice and career field, the wage gap that exists is still a mystery. I personally don't believe that sexism is the overall reason, but motherhood.
@sissylion: It has more to do with career choice. Men typically choose careers that pay more, women do not.
@mystakin said:
Here's a game for you, though. Think of a playable character in video games with a love interest you don't play as. Pretty simple. Drake, Link, and Mario fall into that category (for the most part, obviously some games let you play as Peach or Zelda). Can you name one character that fits that description and is female?
I'm hoping this hasn't already been suggested (a lot of pages to scroll through...), but Primal is one such game. In fact the premise of the game is literally you, as Jen, attempting to save her boyfriend.
@SathingtonWaltz: But that's, like, not true, dog. At all. And even if it were, the public school system corrals women into thinking that they want jobs immersed in gender stereotypes. There are American public school systems that to this day still require females to take home ec classes and males to take some form of shop. It's not fair.
Also none of this has anything to do with the objectification of women in video games
@Anund said:
Maybe it's that I am male, but I just don't see that much sexism in games. Both men and women are taken to the extreme: the men are all fit and unrealistcally muscled, the women are thin with big breasts. That sort of provides eye candy for both sexes.
Now, the behaviour of the actual people playing the games... that is a different thing all together.
It's entirely fictitious, both sexes in many action games are taken to 11 and neither are really that well thought out to be slanderous. Games still have some sort of attitude to appeal to everyone, so when I see a character that looks overly sexy, it's not looked at as offensive to that sex but more as "we need to sell this game to these people" kind of thing, it's not stereotyping anything. That is a big problem I have with gaming in general but that is a wholly different subject.
@Salarn said:
@Dexter_Morgan_ said:
@Salarn said:
I actually had no idea so many women played video games so I will back away from the basic argument of men being able like what they like, however. There are plenty of video games that don't market sex and the female body as an object.
To answer your question I have never purchased a game or movie or comic book because of boobs. But with that said I don't mind seeing it around... it doesn't make or break the content but it does spice it up a little.
Plenty is a relative term, there are many more games now than there were previously. However, looking at E3 and the games out of it, can you find any that had men in the position of a sex object? How many used women as sex objects? Now, the continuation of this thought, how many of the games for women (not girls which is a whole different topic) are games that would in anyway be exclusionary to male gamers? Is that fair to only included under represented groups for games that are for "everyone"?
That's interesting, you personally don't buy things because of serialized advertising, so does sex sell? There is a big big difference between attractive main characters and sexualized characters, the easiest way to tell is to look at a character and ask the simple question. Is what they are wearing helpful to what the character does? (if you can even tell what their profession/role is based on their clothing)
Men characters as a sex object? OF COURSE I CAN!
Drake from Uncharted was listed as the sexiest game character of 2011. Johnny Cage is a dirty whore if I remember correctly. LOL And don't even get me started on Nukem (kidding)
Seriously though, I had no idea so many women played video games and I am willing to open up my mind up a little bit more to the subject in the future. I just don't want to see censoring and such... I guess thats what I truly fear the most. I don't need boobs in games, but I don't not need them either.
Also... Kudos to the guy who mentioned "White Knights" in the last page. I totally see that here. (not that theres anything wrong with that)
@HatKing said:
@Harkat said:
@sissylion said:
@Dexter_Morgan_ said:
Boobs + Video Games = Man Happy.
Black people + death = white man happy.
You don't actually think that's equivalent, do you?
Men liking breasts is completely instinctive and natural. It doesn't hurt anyone. Also, last time I checked making a female game character sexualized didn't mean killing, seriously physically injuring, or driving women out of their homes and property. We're talking about portrayals in a videogame. There is a case to be made that certain portrayals in media are - in the long term and on a wide general scale - unhealthy. But likening it to racially motivated direct physical violence and torture is idiotic.
You didn't even make a case attempting to tie your supposedly analogous example to the original statement, something I think is impossible anyways. But please, enlighten us.
The sexualization of breasts is actually a construction of western culture and the furthest thing from natural, actually. But kudos for playing right into what they want you to believe.
Can you please explain that last bit? I always thought men were attracted to breasts because of their primitive extinct (which babies have also)
@sissylion: Your right, what we were discussing is sort of off topic. Also, I'm not disagreeing with you about the school systems or society, perhaps I should have reworded what I said. Men and women choose different careers based on gender roles enforced by society. The careers men choose on average happen to pay more. I think it has less to do with blatant "sexism" and more to do with our culture as a whole.
@sissylion said:
@SathingtonWaltz: But that's, like, not true, dog. At all. And even if it were, the public school system corrals women into thinking that they want jobs immersed in gender stereotypes. There are American public school systems that to this day still require females to take home ec classes and males to take some form of shop. It's not fair.
Also none of this has anything to do with the objectification of women in video games
Do women get paid less for the same jobs (I'm not asking rhetorically, I don't know what the statistics are based on)? I'm not sure what it's like in America, but that school policy sounds fucked up.
@mandude said:
Do women get paid less for the same jobs (I'm not asking rhetorically, I don't know what the statistics are based on)? I'm not sure what it's like in America, but that school policy sounds fucked up.
Yes. Technically, it's illegal in America for anyone two persons to receive unequal pay for equal work, regardless of gender, race, etc. Many lower-paying jobs tend to stick to this creed provided that the career is unionized, as unions require a representative to help negotiate the salaries of its workers. The problems are mostly higher up.
Mainly, the two ways that wage discrimination happens are through negotiations and titles. Any business which separately negotiates salaries of each individual worker can shaft minorities or women (or, hell, people they just don't like) by making it against company policy for employees to discuss salaries with each other. So John, a white male, gets the full $60,000 a year that his position entitles him to, but when Clarence, a black male, has his annual meeting, he's only given $50,000. John and Clarence have no idea of knowing about the discrepancy between their paychecks, so nothing gets resolved.
The other way is taking practically identical jobs and disseminating them into multiple positions with different titles. Let's say White Collar Company A has a league of sexist higher-ups who don't want to pay women equal wages. They can take a standard office role like "assistant" and divide it into positions like "aide" and "secretary," relegate males to one title and females to the other, and then pay the male title significantly more. Each role serves the same function in the business, but since they're technically different jobs, the company can get away with it.
I just backed her project with 25$.
@mandude: In the United States, each state has it's own public school system that is regulated by a set of federal standards.
@Dexter_Morgan_ said:
Men characters as a sex object? OF COURSE I CAN!
Drake from Uncharted was listed as the sexiest game character of 2011. Johnny Cage is a dirty whore if I remember correctly. LOL And don't even get me started on Nukem (kidding)
It's a good bit of discussion here, sexy and objectified are separate things.
Johnny Cage, his character was shallow self absorbed movie star so maybe a bit of a sex object, he did walk around with his shirt off whenever possible. He was a real asshole, so he likely loses points for personality.
Drake is not a sex object, none of his physical characteristics are exaggerated, he's just an attractive guy with normal parameters. He can be sexy, but he's not objectified. I've not played all of the Uncharted games, are there any scenes where he's wearing a banana hammock while fighting villains? He's smart, witty, fit, and in charge, I'm not surprised he won that vote.
*shudder* I hope nobody sees duke nukem as attractive, the character is a walking pile of shame.
@Salarn: I think Duke Nukem is a satirical persona, I don't think the developers actually intended him to be a serious character.
Well it's certainly a problem and this new series looks really interesting and well thought out to boot. Also shame on people who are making threats against this women. First of all they have no basis for such hateful language and even if they had good reason to disagree with her, and frankly I'm not sure they do, they should be far more respectful.
@depecheload: Sorry that it took me so long to reply, I was at work. I see in the rest of the thread it kind of devolved into a shit-throwing match.
I guess I'll have to start off by apologizing, I think I may have framed my argument in the wrong light. I sometimes get like this, were all my ideas are tumbling out of my head, so let me re-iterate the general statement I was trying to make:
I think the way that the way a very vocal minority of feminists(just like chauvinists for the male side) have taken over this entire discussion(not here particularly, but in general). What I was trying for with my discussion is that males go through a lot of stuff as well, and while it may not be equal, I don't think, from the average male's perspective it's so hard to see that we can relate to each-other. Just like women don't want to be cat-called in the street, not every man wants to be vilified and thought as a potential rapist or assailant.
I also think a change in the way the argument is presented would make a world of difference. Instead of coming after the (relative) entirety of the male gender with a shame tactic(I'll admit, this isn't always the case, but I think a lot of men will view it this way) perhaps frame the argument like this. "We are your mothers, sisters, nieces and aunts, we strive and struggle the same way you do, but there is still work to be done for us to be equal. Let's join each other and push forward to equality."
It's hard to make a fertile field ripe for change when we separate ourselves from being anything other than human. One side blames the other, the other gets defensive and all the tools of progress are dropped. Then we bicker, argue, get petty and snarky. Make no mistake, men and women need each other to forge the way ahead, but I think you'd find very few genuinely sexist people here on Giant Bomb. Very few(if any) would say "women don't deserve as much pay as men" or "women shouldn't get to feel safe walking down the street", it may be juvenile but, I think it's merely the way that argument is posed is the reason there are so many kneejerk statements.
As far as my comments about more women making movies, I guess I was just wondering why, with the democratization of movie making (how easy it is to pick up a camera and go,) video game production and music creation, why we haven't seen more women. Even in the indie scene where there isn't that traditional barrier to entry, we haven't seen an explosion of women creators. I think, for this to happen, there needs to be a fundamental change on how girls are raised, especially in regard to goal-orientation.
@Example1013: I guess I was mistaken on the way the argument was framed. I thought we were arguing on what the intended audience was, not that it's mostly created, written and produced by white men. By that argument, yes, a vast majority of movies are. I just think the appeal can be larger and that, despite being a white guy, I can empathize with just about anybody.
its japans fault
@Example1013: I'm sorry, I'm still not following you. I'm trying to determine where sexism lies. Are you saying it has something to do with the lack of females in leading roles? Are you saying that applying female roles more frequently in situations where it is appropriate is the solution? Are you saying the problem is males dominating Hollywood, as opposed to Hollywood portraying women negatively? If that's the case, I agree.
The only thing I have to say, though, is that video games are in their infancy. Before video game culture can uproot the male foundation, more games need to be made that cater to women. Bring them into the industry, and introduce them to a position that let's a more diversified experience take root. I'm not going to continue discussing Hollywood, because the topic at hand is about a different industry with a different set of problems. Specifically, uprooting an unwelcoming culture (video games) as opposed to one that is welcoming, but stuck in it's old way of doing business (Hollywood). At some point, the video game will need to address the same issues. But first, more women need to be introduced to the core market as opposed to simple flash games on Facebook. It will be much harder with predominantly male programmers, but it's more practical since you can't just tell all the males in the industry to take a hike. Things evolve. Things will change. Not overnight, of course.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Jl-GGpIj0ac
Sexist tea commercial is sexist. I don't think I've seen something that patronising in a long time :P
Yes ladies, get your self affirming action on (like using the nice china) with the power of Twinings Tea.
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