"This is not really a game" perspective (TWD?)

UPDATE: This thread is not about me saying "this or that is not a game". This thread is about what the GB crew said about To The Moon last year and if/how/ will that apply to some of this year's games, particularly The Walking Dead. By doing so we can discuss the overall thematic as well as the staff's opinions and the evolution of such opinions.

UPDATE2: I'ma update this post, since most people got confused about the thread. That's because they probably didn't read it in the first place. Wait. If they didn't read it then, why would they read the UPDATE now? Oohhhh . .

Like the guys said on ILM, people are busy with GOTY stuff. Hell, I am busy with GOTY stuff. I've started to go back to last year's podcasts and here's what the guys say, at one point, regarding To The Moon:

"(...) (Pat) hum, also it doesn't have a lot of gameplay to it. (Jeff) Yeah, it's kinda not a game in a lot of ways. (Pat) It's in a, like, game construct, but it's more of a story so. . (Ryan) Cut it! (Jeff) I'd be ok with cutting that, yeah (...)"

So, yeah. . . You guys think this perspective will play a role this year, with a couple of games that could potentially fall into that category, especially The Walking Dead? Or will they forget that they ever said such things about To The Moon and consider The Walking Dead a proper game? (one could have an argument that To The Moon is more of a game than The Walking Dead ever was)

How are we defining the word "game"?

To the Moon & TWD are both fantastic and I don't see the reasoning or point behind this argument at all

They have also said minecraft wasnt a game in the past. My advice is to not take what the crew say seriously about 90% of the time.

They'd get slated by most of the people on this site if they did that, so they probably won't.

@laserbolts said:

They have also said minecraft wasnt a game in the past. My advice is to not take what the crew say seriously about 90% of the time.

yeah i remember that when it first came out. hopefully by now their horizons have been broadened.

I agree with them... So yeah. Stuff like Flower or Dear Esther arent video games, imo. They are interactive experiences.

Really they just make up reasons to cut games that dont feel right to them. To the moon didn't win because they didn't like it enough, simple as that.

@Masakari said:

They are interactive experiences.

like cooking, or wiping your ass.

@kurtbro900 said:

Really they just make up reasons to cut games that dont feel right to them. To the moon didn't win because they didn't like it enough, simple as that.

Yep. If they'd liked To the Moon more they would've had a different conversation.

I agree with them... So yeah. Stuff like Flower or Dear Esther arent video games, imo. They are interactive experiences.

@laserbolts said:

My advice is to not take what the crew say seriously about 90% of the time.

That kinda goes against one of the goals they have set up to achieve when they created Giant Bomb.

If TWD isn't a game then none of the classic point and click adventure games are games and that would be fucked up. I don't see how this is even a discussion.

I wouldn't read too much into that. If more of them had been more passionate about To The Moon, they would've made a stronger argument for it and not dismissed it on the basis of it being more a narrative experience and less about compelling "gameplay". They were finding any small excuse to cut a game from the list. The GB staff are clearly passionate about TWD, and Vinny cares waaay too much about narrative in games to let anybody dismiss TWD on that basis.

Also maybe TWD is better at not really being a game then To The Moon is?

I think where the disconnect occurs is in the term itself. Video game. It's an archaic phrase that was only ever coined to highlight the fact that games were played on a screen. The "games" we have now can hardly be classified as "games" in the traditional sense, but yet we still cling to that phrase because we haven't come up with something more apt yet.

Hopefully it'll happen soon, because if I have to listen to another ignorant crackhead say The Walking Dead isn't a REAL game, I'm liable to break a 40oz over their head.

@kurtbro900 said:

Really they just make up reasons to cut games that dont feel right to them. To the moon didn't win because they didn't like it enough, simple as that.

This is true. Early cuts of the deliberation do not need any real justification.

If it's an interactive world I can manipulate in any way, it's a game.

This is a question that is the direct result of people thinking too hard about things for the sake of conversation.

the world is a videogame.

nothing is real, we are all part of the machine

the walking dead is by far the best game of the year nuff said

@kurtbro900 said:

Really they just make up reasons to cut games that dont feel right to them. To the moon didn't win because they didn't like it enough, simple as that.

Yep. The crew will come up with convenient viewpoints to discard games they don't really care about.

There’s really no need to maintain such a narrow view of gaming. The answer to the question “what is game?” changes every year. If you disqualify The Walking Dead now, would you disqualify Monkey Island back in 1990? Zork in 1980?

All of those games fall on slightly different spots on the play-to-watch scale, I suppose, but to say that The Walking Dead isn’t even a game is a bit much.

Instead of worrying about what gaming is or isn’t, focus on what you like about games and why. It’s perfectly OK to think that The Walking Dead is lame, boring, or not for you. But to go all the way to the end and start saying that it doesn’t even fit in the same category as other, “real” games starts to feel a bit elitist, right?

-Jeff Gerstmann via Tumblr.

I like to think of the game vs story, or mechanics vs contexts, to be a balancing scale. Some games balance more in favor of story then the gameplay but still qualifies as a game. Something like Dear Esther i would say is not a game but still qualifies as, "interactive entertainment", leading me to believe the industry could use more terminology.

The Walking Dead is a game that balances very heavily towards story, as most adventure games do, but it's still a game.

They'll forget they said this because no one among them really cared about To The Moon and too many of them really love TWD.

Had they liked To The Moon as much as TWD they wouldn't have cut it for that reason.

It is a game. You can't progress through it unless you move a character, select items, solve puzzles. It may not be the best playing game ever, but it's a game. Why is this still a big deal?

@Winternet said:

one could have an argument that To The Moon is more of a game than The Walking Dead ever was.

How so?

I say The Walking Dead is a game. To The Moon is way harder to define.

The difference? Let's pick a definition to compare with. Sid Meyers classic definition is simple and straight forward: A game is a series of interesting decisions. (It doesn't necessarily cover everything perfectly, but it's good enough to get the point across.)

Does The Walking Dead have interesting decisions? Hell Yeah.

Does To The Moon have interesting decisions? Hm...

What ever your answer is, this sums up why this discussion exists to begin with.

@FearMyFlop said:

If it's an interactive world I can manipulate in any way, it's a game.

Nope, that could just be a simulation. A simulation isn't necessarily a game. If you add rules and goals that require you making interesting decisions to proceed, your getting somewhere. Of course you could just add those rules and goals yourself and turn a simulation into a game.

@Oldirtybearon said:

I think where the disconnect occurs is in the term itself. Video game. It's an archaic phrase that was only ever coined to highlight the fact that games were played on a screen. The "games" we have now can hardly be classified as "games" in the traditional sense, but yet we still cling to that phrase because we haven't come up with something more apt yet.

Hopefully it'll happen soon, because if I have to listen to another ignorant crackhead say The Walking Dead isn't a REAL game, I'm liable to break a 40oz over their head.

Video games are actually more closely related to games in general than you might think. My guess is most game designers will tell you that designing game systems is very similar, regardless of whether the medium is digital or analog. If you think about it, whether you're playing XCOM or Battlefield, the similarities to many board games are pretty obvious. Some experiences push the limits of what can be defined as a game though, but does that really mean that we need a whole new word for the whole phenomenon?

@Gargantuan said:

If TWD isn't a game then none of the classic point and click adventure games are games and that would be fucked up. I don't see how this is even a discussion.

Classic point and click adventure games have puzzles. Puzzles are obviously games. TWD has some puzzles, but it's more about the choices you make which also makes it a game from my perspective at least. Does To the Moon have puzzles. Not really, right? That's why it's a discussion.

Considering the state of games as a whole this year, they would be wise to not be so dismissive. Jeffs Linkedin (or was it tumblr?) answers to questions indicates he is not.  
 
I haven't played to the moon but I suspect it was more a case of either not all of them wanting to fight for it or they just figured based on all the games that year it didn't cut it. Maybe they should've gone into detail, but given how long these take, I'm sure it was mainly for time they didnt get as into it more than "it's more a story than a game."

I have just played episode 2-4 of the walking dead today and it's one hell of an adventure game. Some mentioned Dear Esther which I think is closer to interactive fiction than what I would call a game. I don't get some of the complaints about little interaction. I found TWD to be similar to previous point and click games but a lot more engaging.

I love these guys!

Especially Jeff!

But sometimes when they try to define a game, they are really wrong and stupid.

Especially Jeff!

@JoeyRavn said:

There’s really no need to maintain such a narrow view of gaming. The answer to the question “what is game?” changes every year. If you disqualify The Walking Dead now, would you disqualify Monkey Island back in 1990? Zork in 1980?

All of those games fall on slightly different spots on the play-to-watch scale, I suppose, but to say that The Walking Dead isn’t even a game is a bit much.

Instead of worrying about what gaming is or isn’t, focus on what you like about games and why. It’s perfectly OK to think that The Walking Dead is lame, boring, or not for you. But to go all the way to the end and start saying that it doesn’t even fit in the same category as other, “real” games starts to feel a bit elitist, right?

-Jeff Gerstmann via Tumblr.

I was trying to remember where I read that so I could post it here. I think this kinda shows that TWD isn't going to have many issues with getting in, at least, the top 3. What I'm worried about is how much Ryan and Patrick seemed to dislike the last two episodes.

The Walking Dead is technically a game. It's an interactive story just as Heavy Rain was a game.

First of all, I don't like the "it's not a game" argument. It seems like an argument which is only brought up by people who don't want to actually spend time discussing a game's merits, because they want to give something else the GOTY title. The only time I think it's even possibly valid is with things like Dear Esther, which literally has you do nothing but walk around and explore a pretty environment, and even then, I'd say it still applies, because that exploration, and that discovery is the "gameplay" (even if I do think Dear Esther is a pile of hot garbage).

That said, even if we were going to apply that logic to To The Moon isn't a game, which as I said, I disagree with, then The Walking Dead is still "more" of a game than it is. The main criticism which I had with To The Moon (which I really liked, for the record), is that the story, while excellently written, wasn't enhanced by the medium. To The Moon works just as well as a novel, or as a film, as it does a game. The same is not true of The Walking Dead, because of those choices. The primary "gameplay" of The Walking Dead, I would argue, is not the bits where you're walking around picking up items and using them on other items, it's those choices everyone hypes up so much. The reason The Walking Dead only works as a game (this version of it, of course, I like the comics on their own merits) is because the story forces you to make these intensely difficult choices. Those choices, those dialog windows, those characters, are all an essential part of The Walking Dead's fundamental gameplay.

They are adventure games, plain and simple. I hope The Walking Dead wins GB's GOTY award, as it's my personal GOTY. That said, if it loses out to other great games like XCOM, or Far Cry 3, that's ok. It's their choice. It was their choice not to make Portal 2, my personal GOTY 2011 their GOTY 2011. I just hope if it loses, it loses because they don't think it's the best game of 2012, not because it isn't a game at all, because that is a ridiculous distinction to make.

They will forget that they ever said such things about To The Moon and consider The Walking Dead a proper game.

@Oldirtybearon said:

I think where the disconnect occurs is in the term itself. Video game. It's an archaic phrase that was only ever coined to highlight the fact that games were played on a screen. The "games" we have now can hardly be classified as "games" in the traditional sense, but yet we still cling to that phrase because we haven't come up with something more apt yet.

I agree with this.

Hopefully it'll happen soon, because if I have to listen to another ignorant crackhead say The Walking Dead isn't a REAL game, I'm liable to break a 40oz over their head.

Yet disagree with this. Movies haven't been defined by their "moving pictures" feature for a LONG time, yet we still hold on to that phrase. Even with other terms available, like film or cinema (theater doesn't count, given the overlap), we still use "movie" the most.

@Masakari said:

I agree with them... So yeah. Stuff like Flower or Dear Esther arent video games, imo. They are interactive experiences.

So you mean they are like all video games since it seems that video games feature interactive experiences.

If Minecraft isn't a game, than anything goes.

But, they all liked the game enough so that it won't matter. It'll win GOTY no problem.

It will be brought up, and dismissed. I'm pretty sure Ryan has already said similar things several times about TWD on the podcast.

@EXTomar said:

@Masakari said:

I agree with them... So yeah. Stuff like Flower or Dear Esther arent video games, imo. They are interactive experiences.

So you mean they are like all video games since it seems that video games feature interactive experiences.

That's just bad logic. Games feature interactive experiences, but that doesn't mean that all interactive experiences are games.

If TWD isn't a fucking game, then Beneath A Steel Sky, Grim Fandango, and Day of the Tentacle aren't fucking games.

If you can say that TWD "isn't a game" or "isn't a candidate for GoTY" then I will change the whole premise to interactive experience of the year. I don't care how you qualify it, that experience offered by TWD needs to be recognized. It is fresh, engaging, emotionally draining, and quite unlike any interactive experience I've had in a long time. It is going to be one of my top gaming experiences that I look back upon with fondness, I just know it.

Edit: And declaring TWD "not a game" would open a big can of worms, especially regarding other point-and-click/adventure games.

What does it say about episodic content that TWD is even considered for GotY? And yeah, it's a goddamn video game. A good one at that, despite the fact the puzzles in Skyrim were more complex.

Is Tic Tac Toe a game?

Then The Walking Dead is a game.

@Barrock said:

Is Tic Tac Toe a game?

But is it a vi-

I loved To the Moon. Tugged on my heartstrings more than anything in any media has for a long time. But I still don't know if I'd call it a game. Whatever it is, it was damn good at it.

The Walking Dead is less of a game than To The Moon is, and should not be considered for Game of the Year. However, because of the Bomb Squad's personal affection for the game, they will not only consider it, it will at the very least be a close runner-up. It's not really their fault, even the best of duders are hypocritical sometimes. Just keep in mind that in the end, the GOTY awards are really just a hyped up version of the opinions of a small group of people, and don't actually have any affect on the quality of a game that does or does not get chosen.

@kurtbro900 said:

Really they just make up reasons to cut games that dont feel right to them. To the moon didn't win because they didn't like it enough, simple as that.

I agree with this. The GotY deliberations are mostly decided upon gut reactions.

@Deusoma said:

Just keep in mind that in the end, the GOTY awards are really just a hyped up version of the opinions of a small group of people, and don't actually have any affect on the quality of a game that does or does not get chosen.

Please stop lying.

Pretty much what everyone else said. While I'm sure the discussion will be had, the big difference here is that TTM was never a serious contender for 2011 GOTY, whereas TWD seems to be the big heavyweight contender against Xcom, at least among the Giant Bomb crowd.

@Gargantuan said:

If TWD isn't a game then none of the classic point and click adventure games are games and that would be fucked up. I don't see how this is even a discussion.

The Walking Dead is nothing like classic point and click adventure games. Those games were all chock full of great puzzles which are definitely gamey. The puzzle I remember from The Walking Dead is some lady saying she needs batteries then after finding said batteries you have to puzzle out how batteries are supposed to be inserted. Don't get me wrong I loved The Walking Dead but there was nothing great or even really good in the gameplay.