Under-represented demographics in videogames - a matter of principle?

Hmmm.. honestly the only time I've ever heard "person of colour" used is when a white person is trying not to say the word "black" because they think it isn't PC or whatever. Kind of sadly ironic, I guess, given your reaction.

I don't feel like I know enough information to make an informed opinion on this issue. Stuff like the male/female ratio in specific genres, say FPS. I bet it skews heavily towards male but I honestly don't know. If it does, I don't know how much having a male or female protagonist world really effect sales figures. My gut tells me maybe a little, but probably not much. If it would significantly impact sales.. I guess I can't blame the higher ups making those decisions. Especially on the huge AAA games.

I'd like to believe that as long as you make a great game with a great character, it won't matter what gender or race your protagonist is; It will still sell gangbusters. And maybe it's true. Maybe AAA studios are scared of ghosts, avoiding featuring certain types of characters out of a fear of lower sales when there wouldn't be. I used to think there is way too much money being put into market research for a big company to be wrong about a thing like that, but after Square-Enix put out their statement regarding Bravely Default's sales, I'm not so sure. Remember that? They perceived a decline in the RPG genre and shifted their focus elsewhere, but the high sales for a straight up JRPG-ass JRPG showed them that plenty of people were still interested in the genre. Maybe we'll see a similar revelation from other companies and in other genres.

As for me personally, I'm a male who prefers to play a female avatar. And not because of the "if you're gonna be looking at the back of a character..." argument, though I guess it's a small plus. The real reason is I've had a lot of strong female role models in my life and not a lot of strong male ones, so I always view the female as the more appealing, perhaps stronger option when given the choice. Even that aside, I have no trouble connecting with characters of a different race or gender. I honestly have no idea if I'm in the minority or the majority in that.

What was the budget on Bravely Default, though? I feel like that's the key.

@sweepsaid:

Personally, unless you're going to actually explore the unique perspective that a different faith/gender/race could have on the game, it doesn't fucking matter what your virtual murderer looks like.

See Jadegl's answer in the other thread for why it does matter

http://www.giantbomb.com/forums/general-discussion-30/whats-up-with-calling-ubisoft-sexist-racist-this-y-1486556/?page=2#js-message-7401393

I will agree better written characters is a good thing, but representation helps in general even in the absence of good writing.

As an Mexican I forgive you :D

But it is a very narrow representation of what Mexican or mexican culture is , which brings me to the next point , I think that when people say white man etc they are actually refrerring to midlle class white american (from the US or Canadia) , when people say that Niko Belic is a non cultural white dude ... sheesh he is slavic and it very different from white middle class america and whoop de doo I am a white Mexican which means my perspective has never been used in videogames and is quite different from the rest of Mexico , as it would also be very different from a Mexican Jew or a Mexican Menonites or a indigena from the more mixed mexican population , as it would be very different from a city dweller from a country side , and from west mexico to the center to the south etc. Also hispanic is suc a disnomer ..... they are latin americans NOT SPANIARDS!!!!!!!! (Which would be the real hispanos because you know hispania etc.) , americans can be so ignorant some times).

But if the main character has no personality to speak off then by all means make a chracter creator and allow people to choose race and gender , or like they do in Mass Effect , such a good compromise :/

Also to add a bit to the disscusion , I would not play a black main character , take it as you will. Also I agree with @video_game_kingI find it hilarious how must people and journos (specially them) keep thinking that japanese developers are magicly white "caucasian" middle american dudes. Oh yeah also Big Boss is half japanese >:3

I think you mean Solid Snake? Or is there some plot point about Big Boss that I missed?

Anyway, assuming this is true, does that make Solid Snake Japanese by rounding, or is he white because Eva was his biological mother? And for that matter, you'd think that "some random Japanese woman" would have a much larger presence in the Metal Gear saga than she does. And why does Old Snake's suit make a slurping noise when it changes camo?

I'll only play games in which I get to play as B.J. Blazkowicz.

Unless you're going to write better characters then there's no point adding more diversity.

No. Diversity has value unto itself when it comes to representation in media as it influences the fostering of perceived cultural norms. Always has. Always will. Don't conflate its value to game quality and its value as a social tool.

Why bother? These people (middle-class white cuckolds arguing on behalf of minorities who don't give a flying fuck) will never be content.

You presume a hell of a lot about multiple groups of people.

@turambar said:

He really does, but goddamn if that wasn't some hot fire.

@video_game_king: Oh dang it you are right ... I effed up D: yeah retconing Solid Snake then.... were was it where I saw that either of them was half japanese ? I forgot mhhhh.

My bad king.

Well here ya go ... smells like retcon alright but you can excuse my confusion

http://metalgear.wikia.com/wiki/Clark%27s_assistant

@fredchuckdave: I hate that stupid picture.

You know what a large problem with this "debate" is? Fucking confirmation bias. Some people are so fanatic about the diversity in games stuff, that literally any white-guy main character is lumped in to prove some sort of point against developers or certain game franchises. Why is a lead character from Silent Hill in that picture to strike some sort of blow against white guy dominance? Silent Hill has had a female protagonist, and that game was beloved. GTA has had loads of black characters. Mass Effect lets you create your own character in the first place. Chris from Resident Evil is a problem, now? Are we forgetting the game he's introduced in you get to choose between him and Jill Valentine? That there have been multiple female protagonists in Resident Evil? That Chris' co-op partner is a black woman? And Heavy Rain? There's a female character among the playable cast! The game prior to Heavy Rain also featured a hispanic woman as a main character along with a black man, and the most recent game from QD featured a single female protagonist!

There's a big fucking difference in seeing boring white dudes in games just for the sake of it and completely cherry-picking protagonists from series to prove some sort of point. White dudes existing in games is not the problem.

In mental health therapy, even with people who appear to be just like me, I ask a lot of questions to get in the mind of my clients and better understand their perspectives. I do this because I can't view the world as they do I can't help them change maladaptive patterns. I can't offer them the patterns I use for myself because they aren't me and those patterns may not work for them.

The point being that writers for games need exposure to the cultures and perspectives they are trying to bring out in their games. I guess. Or something. Right?

@marokai:

It seems you're missing the forest for the trees. (Is that how the expression goes?)

@video_game_king: I understand the expression you're getting at, and I even understand the point that image was trying to make, but it's making it in an incredibly pithy and disingenuous way.

It is? I thought it was just a regular expression I fucked up.

@video_game_king: I meant the image that the other guy- ..wait, are we talking about the same thing now? Are you trolling me now and my sarcasm detector failed? WHAT'S GOING ON.

Way too many games seem to have the same kind of bald space marine fighting some weirdly textured alien thing. Can we say "too many games are doing this...can't they come up with something else for a change" or does that make people feel bad and get all defensive?

And that is really the issue. Watch Dogs came out and it features yet another alpha guy who's motivation appears to be saving his family while blowing up as much bad guy stuff up as possible. I will not be surprised at all if it turns out the story in AC:Unity features yet another alpha guy who's motivation appears to be saving his family while blowing up as much bad guy stuff as possible. It is kind of quaint.

I also played through Gears as player 2, and I'm also latino. His ethnicity didn't matter to me or change my perception of the game or its developers. I would have felt the same way if he had been white or black.

It's absolutely true that racial, cultural and gender diversity has no value in itself and should never be added just for the sake of it. It must be repeated again and again: games are for pleasure and not for moralizing. Every design choice that's made for "justice" or "equality" and not to make the game more interesting and enjoyable is a corrupt, pathetic, degenerate design choice. And the same goes for criticism.

Excerpts from Pauline Kael's excellent "Trash, Art and the Movies" written in 1969:

It applies to game criticism today just as much as it applied to movie criticism 45 years ago.

All I have to say is no.

And @sweep, I just realized something: I'm really close to passing you in number of blogs written. Be prepared.

The reason it tends to get shot down, and not only by hardcore-gamer-dick-waving, is because those stats are not representative of the people who are actually consuming the products some people rail against. Here's an older article regarding those stats. The difference between the 2012 and the 2014 ESA data is a 3% increase of female gamers. The percentage increase of female core gamers may have increased further, stayed flat, or decreased, but it most likely isn't the 48% that one would get from the ESA data.

This doesn't discount the idea that it would be good to have more diversity in the characters we see in games. However, basing any argument for it solely around the ESA data is a faulty argument. A better argument that leverages those stats would be to point out the disparity between female core gamers and all female gamers, and how the industry beyond what may be considered casual gaming should try to tap into that female demographic that isn't buying and playing what would be considered core games. That may or may not be accomplished by more diverse characters. I'm sure some people will fall into the trap of trying to argue about what core games should be, but that's not really a sound counter-argument.

Says who?

Who does it help and who decide who needs this "help". These are commercial products made and marketed to the people who play them. When it comes to games where you shoot and stab guys in the face, the majority of that audience is male. I mean, only 18% of people, played as femshep in Mass Effect. I think most game journalists are dudes and like "dude" games, then think it's some mystery that a large group of women don't like those games.

There's probably many people like me, who are tired of shooters and don't think many AAA games are for them. You don't see the vitriol over that because people understand there's a large audience that buy's them. The same way people criticize Reality TV but understand that is where the big money is.

If I'm being really cynical I'd say this subject gives people some cause they can fight for(mostly by ranting on twitter). I bet if all you did is sit at a desk and write about video games, that might seem not very meaniful after a couple years. It's more meaningful to think your fighting for the helpless women, crying out to shoot people. I mean they make up 50% of the gaming market, so thier playing something. Maybe ...Maybe its just not the games you as a male journalist likes and covers.

@marokai: You seem to be raging against a picture not against any particular argument; and while this is amusing it doesn't really do anything for your point. Do you also find this image offensive?

Back to the point: There's no white people in the FGC.

@milkman: Me, Kael, Nietzsche, Shinji Mikami etc.

quoting this to make sure it's on every page of this thread

@gordy: Don't do that. Not because I disagree, but that's not a cool forum thing to do.

I'm going to say this: as a Hispanic male, yeah there are times where I say it would be nice to see more people of color in leading roles. On the other hand I know it'll be more common when people of different races, genders, and creeds to fill higher level creative positions at game studios. Because as the OP mentioned it really is best to write what you know, or what write you feel you can do justice without relying too much on stereotypes and the coming off as corny.

I think Mass Effect 3 did a homosexual character best. That guy in the engineering bay, I think?

Dude just drops "I lost my husband in the attacks..." Shepherd just goes "Sorry to hear that" or something as if nothing weird was said.

Because it wasn't weird.

Some dudes like dudes.

That always stuck with me as a "YES!" moment. It wasn't like the saxophone guy from Enchanted Arms. It was just one person talking to another. I feel like those are the moments that stand out to me. Not an artificially diverse set of core characters.

I really hate the phrase, "Its just a game and games are for fun so who cares!" There are a couple of variations but they're all dumb. Have you ever thought that maybe I want to play as someone my own race and that I'd have more fun doing so? And too add to the diversity point, I totally believe in diversity for diversity sake. If it doesn't change that much than why not? Ideally games should strive to be more inclusive.

I don't normally do something like that, it was just such a well-written post that nothing I could've written would be better.