Anyone feel weird about playing this game after the GOTY discussions?

I wanted to address this argument.

In this case, Adam's nudity isn't objectifying, it isn't titillating the way 2B's outfit is. It's not supposed to provoke the "female gaze" the way a guy in a teen series rips off his shirt to show his abs and even that isn't objectifying. A girl isn't gonna be attracted to a nude Adam coming out of robots the same way a gruff Archie (Riverdale) comes out of the shower to look at himself in the mirror, abs and six pack (and even then that isn't objectification, that's empowering for Archie's portayal). Adam may have a pretty face and a chiseled body but the context is not titillating the way 2B's skirt teases the player with getting glimpses of her butt, when she performs attacks or the player rotates the camera.

I don't mind her outfit but that's purely because I started getting into fashion. Like what @_mynameiseno said, Abby has the most say, even if I don't agree with her either, the outfit is titillating and can be bothersome. I think it's an attractive design, but Yoko Taro and people have to own up and admit that even if the outfit has a recognizable influence, Harajuku fashion from what this thread is saying, he has 2B looking like this because he likes it. It's fine to appreciate sexy character designs! I like her design! But it's stopping me from playing this game in front of my girlfriend, or recommending it to my sisters.

Abby has objectified male video game characters by saying "what a hunk", yet any objectification of a female character is immediately reprehensible to her.

In her GOTY Top 10, she even states about Dream Daddy: "At first glance, everyone could be seen as a stereotypical hunk." Yet she goes on to talk about how these stereotypes were subverted by the deep character development. I wonder if the game had been called Dream Mommy if she would have been able to get over the stereotypical "babes" to see the depth of character development; she clearly was not able to overcome this for Nier.

@whatshisface: I would argue that those people are like that from our culture of social isolation and always being extremely online. They just don't how to turn that off anymore because everything is fucked. I don't think it's fair to hold someone being kind of intense during a heated moment at some sort of protest or political event. A lot of those YouTube clips you see are taken out of context and are intentionnaly manipulative propaganda by reactionary internet bros. You should try talking to some of those people outside of a heated political thing. They are probably much nicer than you think. Some people are just assholes and know how to use id politics for their own gain tho. Youll always run into assholes no matter what group you talk to don't worry about them.

@faulpern: You hit the nail on the head! Wanted to type out the same thought about male nudity, but you beat me to it!

At a certain point, it feels like the line between "empowering" and "objectifying" had been drawn, redrawn, interpreted and reinterpreted enough times there is no actual distinction between the two beyond personal views.

Or maybe that's always been the case.

(Listening to someone take the time to explain Laura Mulvey's view on how all objectification of persons on the screen falls under the category of male gaze regardless of the gender of the creator or the subject is probably what's made me far more prone to roll my eyes at objectification versus empowerment in general as it all starts to feel so incredibly arbitrary. I won't pretend I am being entirely fair.)

@turambar: I'd have to bring in a gender studies major to clearly articulate why fanservice for men is objectifying and fanservice for females isn't but it's all in the gaze.

@_mynameiseno: heh, we'll get along just fine !

I feel like it's the same discourse as Quiet in MGSV. He has a character who lives through photosynthesis in MGS3, old man, ghillie suit, really cool boss fight. For MGSV the same deal, except her photosynthesis doesn't allow her to wear clothes, and of course her 3D model is based off of Stephanie Joosten's body, a very attractive lady.

Not to say anything bad about Stephanie Joosten, she said she had a positive experience, but Kojima should just own up to the fact that he found her design attractive. Of course it's titillating, bikini and torn up tights, shower scene with her hands running along her curves, what part of that isn't made for pure titillation?

These designs aren't sexist, it's dismissing women's impressions on the designs that's sexist.

@faulpern: Note my edit. Doesn't the person who coined the term "male gaze" deny the existence of any such "female gaze"? The argument Mulvey presents, as explained to me anyways, was literally that as the cinematic techniques originated with male film makers using them on a female subject to appeal to a male audience, any future usage of the techniques, regardless of the gender of the creator, subject, or audience, still falls under "male gaze."

@turambar: It's hazy and complicated for sure. For example I have female friends who sometimes use the fact that men objectify them to their advantage, and they feel it is empowering. Using a system that is actually against them in a way they can benefit from (whilst the actual objectifying is still a bad thing). Dressing attractively to get into a club for example, gives a woman a certain degree of power whilst men still look at them in an objectifying way.

But to stick to the topic, 2B is not a real person, and the characters in the game often aren't even sexually active, so it doesn't seem like much of an empowerment thing for her in a story context. She's more just a nice thing to look at for the player, designed by game designers.

Alot of it is about power dynamics though right? It's not really how fan service for women isn't objectifying per se, but how the balance is different. Games are a male dominated medium where women (like Abby!) are trying to get their voice heard. And most Games are made by men for men, making the fanservice itself very different.

My problem with this argument is that whenever I hear it made, it almost always relies on the ground work of the power dynamic being calcified and any change to it being wholly denied. It essentially both denies the changes appearing within a power structure (or the possibility of that power structure changing at all) as well as the ability for one group to ever not be the offender and the other to ever not be the victim.

To put it more succinctly and on topic, the fan-service is not actually different, just our interpretation of it.

Totally yeah. The power dynamics are different and that does change things. I think the solution is more woman in the industry and more games targeted at woman (and lgbt, poc, etc). It doesn't necessarily have to be that men have to stop making sexually appealing characters.

Also, I want to be clear I'm only arguing my point and kind of going against the common liberal feminist discourse because I feel extremely comfortable on giantbombdotcom. If this were some other shithole full of dirtbags like Reddit or something my replies would be different.

I think there are totally changes appearing within that power structure, honestly! And in a positive way, though I do still think there's still an imbalance. Like @sea_anemone says the balance should be more equal. The fact that sexy women etc are in games isn't a problem in and of itself, but rather the imbalance and structures surrounding those. And I think men are often victims aswell from these structures (Terry Crews comes to mind)

@turambar: oh shit sorry, either I reply too fast, or I just didn't read it which doesn't help. I don't know who Laura Mulvey is either, but it would be wrong to deny the term "female gaze", since I just argued that there are cases of the term.

I'm probably straying from the point, but what I want to emphasize is that, in Nier: Automata's case, the fanservice directed at females is qualitatively different from the male-oriented fanservice. Adam and Eve get fanservicey during their second encounter, where they're wearing black jeans and shirtless. It's titillating, there's fanart of it, but that encounter is titillating in a different way than any time 2B or A2 are in view. Adam and Eve are ripped, they look like buff guys, like they can take a hit. It isn't demeaning for guys to be portrayed as shirtless and ripped, hell I look at myself in the mirror that way after boxing class. 2B isn't portrayed as sexual like we're saying in this thread, and yet her outfit very much is. It's revealing, it's kind of intimate, and wild and it doesn't feel like her character or personnality reflects that, which feels dissonant and misunderstanding of female sexuality. Women can wear revealing outfits, and they do, look at Bayonetta, her design reflects her character.

I feel like if you make the choice to design 2B that way, then that says something about her character. I feel like her design clashes with that.

@sea_anemone: totally, if we agreed all the time, then we wouldn't have this debate.

I don't know if Kojima or Taro are misogynists though, Kojima has a couple of pretty cool women characters (Eva, The Boss from MGS3) and Taro has a whole ensemble of female characters I remember not liking (Drakengard 3), and even then, that doesn't say anything about their views on women.

@faulpern: haha I know they aren't. I've played all the Metal Gear games and love them. I was just being a goofy internet dork.

I love Kaine from the first Nier, but I'm not going to defend her outfit even if I personally love it and want to cosplay it. It was a bit much really.

I'm probably old fashioned and just a dog but I feel videogames are and will continue to be a place where I can one day build a civilization, another day maybe I'm murdering people by shooting them in the ass with shotguns and then on the third day I might enjoy an anime romp with skimpy outfits that carry a heavy plot. Some days my Link will wear cool stealth clothing and some other days he'll be dressed up in the finest female garbs from a certain desert village and trying to flirt with random bird and rock men and deliciously full-bodied giant fairy women.

I think I'm saying while I'm very much against murder, genocide, war and objectifying people in real life - sometimes in games I escape the "shackles of reality" and live out some other life where I'm not just a dog. I fully support more diversity in life and in games, characters and otherwise, but I also don't want things to be taken away due to real life sensibilities.

That being said I did find 2B's outfit a little off-putting at first but eventually I learned to ignore it and rather enjoy the much more important part of the game; Pascal.

Link is soooooo cute and hot in that outfit wowow

I think for me, the point that raises an eyebrow from me is this part. The difference between the two types of fan service is not anything inherent to the work itself. It is entirely a product of the cultural interpretations of the work. Why shouldn't it be demeaning for guys to be portrayed that way? Why should 2B's outfit be viewed as sexual in a way that contradicts her written character? (These questions are rhetorical, by the way.)

As I said, it's due to this that I find much of discourse on empowerment versus objectification to be innately murky and rather dissatisfying.

@geirr: On the topic of Automata, I think it speaks to the strength of the game's intentional misdirection both in terms of gameplay and marketing that so much conversation continued to be had about 2B for a variety of reasons when she is ultimately just a side character to the actual story.

It feels about as close to another MGS2 bait and switch as studios are willing to go in this day and age.

@sea_anemone: haha, okay gotta stop taking myself so seriously.

Now Kainé is a great character and her outfit suits her, and now I have to write a 2 page essay explaining why and I shouldn't because I'm at work. :-|

@faulpern: Nawww I'm terrible for constantly switching between super serious mode and being goofy constantly. It gets me into trouble all the time.

I completely agree, but that's a conversation I think would be much harder to have when people see the outfit for the first time.

Its a Game made in a different country with different cultural acceptabilitys.

First thing I thought when I saw the nier art work and played this game I thought she looked badass. Also during GOTY those discussions on this were pretty bad, Abby disliked this game from the get go regardless.

It's like when FFXV/Versus XIII was getting close to release allot of the western audience hated their "pretty" designs I thought they looked super cool for like the 10 years they were shown off.

This, like that has to appeal to Japanese players first and foremost, and I'm glad it does as someone that barely plays western made games because I hate the styles and generic white dude with a buzz cut but some people love that and that's great.

I really like the androids being maids because they are the servants of humanity but its so stylish, I really dig the outfits its cool.

It doesn't make 2b any less of a Strong awesome character.

I really don't get the "2b looks like a maid" thing. I think that dress is super stylish. If I wore it and someone said I look like a maid I would cry

@turambar: true, my argument is kinda moot.

I'll try to go back and see if I missed anything in the thread, I kind of skimmed of the discussion.

I fully agree with this. Those outfits do not look maid-esque at all to me. It takes much more than black and white fabric with frills.

I guess having known women who are cosplayers and have cosplayed 2B and A2 and like their character and personality and designs that im just always a bit surprised at the prudish/reserved nature of American women here, and just how it feels like Abby was willing to throw the whole game under the bus for specifically this.

(she said it was "very good" and deserves to be on the list i know, but it just didnt come off as sincere to me and more of a way to make compromised peace with it being on the list due to the passion behind it from the other staff members, more than any of the other fights for goty in the history of this site, it just felt like she had a personal vendetta against the game for specifically this, even down to booing the game in the end)

it also probably informs how i played through the game and her design didn't even faze me, and also cause her character and the way she is, and what she means to 9S plays into the last 2/3's of the game,

So yea, im on the camp off "it didnt really bother me" and there's not really much pervy stuff at all in the game in any case

(in a weird roundabout way, i will say for as much as this Nier debate and Abby's behavior was the first one to be irritating, i actually understand the frustration Abby had with Dan dismissing Dream Daddy as just a "dating sim",

but also she did the literal same thing towards Nier of dismissing it over one aspect)

I know in bayonetta the look of the character was actually part of her strength where apon first look it looks like objectification but she actually used that to empower herself. is that the same here?

I wouldn't recommend playing Neir Automata.

Here's my thoughts on this whole thing:

• The maid / butler style is kind of a thing. Besides maid cafes and animes and mangas featuring maids and butlers, this is also represented in various fashion trends. 2B's appearance also reminds me of REOL's look. I'm not going to act like I know a lot about Japanese fashion or why maid culture is a thing (because I don't), but I think there is a connection between all of these things.

• Additionally there's the whole "Glory...to mankind" undertones throughout most of the game. The androids are servants to the humans, so it also makes sense thematically why 2B is dressed as a maid and why 9S is dressed as a schoolboy butler.
• Attraction is also one of the many things going on in the background in the game. Like...the true nature of 2B and 9S's relationship and how they actually do care for each other...or stuff like...the beeped out word when 9S hears "You're thinking about how much you want to **** 2B, don't you?" It's pretty much a flip of a coin if 9S wants to "fuck 2B" or "kill 2B"...or both....or how the game talks about beauty with...Simone and her backstory. With this in mind, I don't think it's crazy that NieR has attractive characters like 2B, 9S, or even Adam and Eve.
• Finally, this isn't the best argument, but it's one that I kept coming back to during the GOTY discussions specifically. In terms of sexualized characters in gaming and other media....NieR:Automata isn't that bad. Like there are characters designs like Rachel from Ninja Gaiden, how characters like Quiet in MGSV are treated. And that doesn't include the more tongue in cheek stuff like Gal Gun or actual h-games. If people don't like 2B's appearance or that trophy, that's fine. I just think there's more intention behind NieR:Automata's character design. Stuff like how you can see 2B's butt feels like a 3 or 4 / 10 on the skeevy scale and I don't think it necessarily harms her character. NieR in the grand scheme of things doesn't have any other moments of fan service. Like there's no beach scene where you see 2B in a bikini and there's no wacky mishap where 9S falls on top of 2B for some dumb reason. I have no idea how the "NieR is a horny game" discussion happened a couple of months ago, but I sincerely think it is not. Even if one were to look for a "horny game", NieR:Automata isn't a good example of that compared to what else is out there.

Honestly I couldn't care less what anyone says about I game I play, either I enjoy it or I don't, I don't think anyone's subjective tastes and opinions is going to have any ultimate barring on that. Though it's interesting discussion.

No reason is pushing it, yes Yoko Taro said some thing but sexuality is definitely a theme throughout the game. It never felt out of place our out of line with the other things in the game either.

@clagnaught: yeah, it's definitely a trend in fashion.

I agree that Nier isn't a horny game, which is exactly why 2B's outfit is so off-putting to people like Abby. I don't know if YoRHa having different designs would make sense for Yoko Taro, he would make a different game in that case, but in a game that does sometimes explore sexuality, robots imitating sex to try to reproduce, a little girl robot asking how babby is formed, Yoko Taro does explore the theme. If anything, it feels prudish that Yoko Taro doesn't admit that 2B's design is sexual and that he doesn't explore her sexuality like he did with Kainé.

@turambar: to better explain myself, I find 2B's design objectifying because 2B is a great character in spite of her outfit, not in addition to her outfit.

And then I forget about all of that when I'm actually playing the game, because all I can see is her frilly skirt and butt. I'm gonna admit, I like looking at nice asses, especially when I have to play a game for a long time. But I cannot justify to myself why I like her outfit other than she looks nice in it. And I can't even think about the question of "Does she care about what she wears" because she's a freaking android of course she doesn't. Which is why I think the outfit demeans the character, "of course the director designed her that way, she's artificial, she can have assets" (objectification). And as such she's a pretty girl to look at, with a cold personality, until

Nothing in terms of story or characterization is gained by her having a very nice skirt from Harajuku that teases her nice butt.

Maybe you could say the same for Adam and Eve? I don't know. But thanks for the debate, it gave me a lot to think about!

It's ridiculous that most of what Vinny and Abby have to say about 2B is the fact that some may find her attractive or "too sexual". They've essentially reduced 2B down to her looks completely ignoring the fact that 2B is an amazingly strong, competent, and well written character. Their sex negative/puritan stuff around this game is so cringy.

@clagnaught: A lot of this is what I said too back on Page 1 or 2 I believe :P

I do want to note that you can definitely make a pretty character that looks like she can kick ass without making her hyper-sexualized. See: Horizon: Zero Dawn, if everything I've played and everything I've seen about that game is a good representation.

When it comes to characters like 2B or characters like Pyra in Xenoblade Chronicles 2, I never think they look sexy or cool. The only thing I can think is "gee, that outfit looks very impractical and uncomfortable to wear in public." Very few of the people who design anime/fantasy/video game characters seem to agree with me, so what we have are ridiculously impractical outfits that are fun to draw/titillating to look at/cool to animate.

Oh well!

There is a point where any decent character designer should stop and think "is this too much for what this game/anime/comic book/whatever is going for?" Because if you're trying to tell a serious story and everyone looks like they are wearing fetishistic clothing, I'm going to have a hard time taking you seriously.

Where you draw the line depends entirely on the person. And most people aren't even going to be consistent - I bought Final Fantasy XII on PS2 and, much later, PS4, played quite a bit of the game on both consoles, and have no problem with Fran's outfit (which consists of a metal bikini and some thing see-through cloth thingy), yet Pyra's and 2B's outfits push me away from their respective games.

We can, however, ask that anyone expressing an opinion publicly make some kind of attempt to be consistent. Don't complain about 2B's character design and then take Link's shirt off for the entire duration of your Breath of the Wild playthrough.

@puchiko: :| Sort of semantics isn't it? Being rewarded for trying when you basically can look up her skirt. Same difference, honestly.

Nah it never bothered me during my first time playing or when I revisited it to figure out where it stood for my top 10 list. If the designer wants to make their characters cute and sexy that's fine, it's their choice. Sometimes to me it'll feel out of place but it won't really affect my enjoyment of the game. I've played and enjoyed the Senran Kagura games that really go for it with the sexy-ness but I just laugh it off with how ridiculous it is. I've liked the gameplay and characters they have.

-Sorry if this is a mess. Not awake in the slightest yet :) -

The argument falls apart when looking at 9S. I think they rather are meant to look like gothic dolls. It's just that maid outfits share some characteristics with the period stylisation.

It didn't bother me before Abby's comment, and it doesn't after it. I get were she is getting from, I would lie if I said it wasn't a little distracting at first, and being "forced" into that protagonist would explain why she had more issues with it than, for example, MGS 5's Quiet, but I think at that point of the GOTY's discussion, they were going into nitpicks.

And about the "it makes sense in context", it is the old "watsonian vs doylist" argument. It makes no sense for a combat android to be dressed like a lolita maid, instead of wearing a body armor or something similar. We (and the designers) can try to justify it whatever we want and there are thematic reasons for it (certainly more than in games like DoA) but, at the end of the day, she is dressed that way because the director thought it looked cool/sexy/marketable... For that reason, I found Taro's comment of "I just like girls" to be refreshingly sincere. No bullshit about "nanomachines/breathing through her skin/a virus did it/she wears a hole on her chest to distract her opponents" that authors use to justify their design decisions.

@redhotchilimist: I don't consider that to be exploitative in the way Abby was trying to push. And I barely noticed that, because while you're in combat, there is plenty of craziness happening that something that basic wouldn't catch your eye. So again, it comes down to the player doing the move out in the middle of nowhere with no enemies around, with the explicit intention of wanting to see 1 second of ass.

I'm not sure it's appropriate to make claims about what would and would not be alluring to an intended Japanese female audience. Adam and Eve very much fit bishonen archetypes that we know are expressly designed to be attractive to Japanese women. Nor can I think you the say the circumstances of their appearance make them not titillating. Imagine those robots had given birth to a nude female-looking character with a figure similar to 2B's, would you still say that's not pandering? Granted Adam and Eve's appearances in the game are not as frequent as 2B's butt, but I'm not sure you can conclusively state there wasn't at least some consideration towards making them attractive in a way expressly designed to be appeal to women or rather those who are sexually attracted to men.

Also this oft repeated claim that depiction of a physically attractive man is empowering, but a depiction of physically attractive women is objectifying, I find to be mental gymnastics performed by those who are basically trying to find an acceptable way to say that it's ok for women to be mildly sexually pandered to, but not men.

Kind of tangentially related, I thought it was funny that Vinny, who criticized Nier for being "horny", went on to make a sarcastic parody remark about shirtless Link in Breath of the Wild. While I think he meant to poke fun at anyone who would draw such a comparison to defend Nier, he kind of ended up parodying himself, because that comparison is not wholly invalid. Anecdotally, I believe the Zelda series does appeal to a good number of female players, and BotW's Link is also very similar in appearance to traditional bishonen characters. I could definitely see there being some amount of intentional titillation with the ability to make Link shirtless. Which is totally cool! Double standards are not.

@coryukin said:

That's not at all what they were saying. There were saying that the fanservice-y nature of her outfit was off-putting. Abby was bothered that there were upskirt shots you couldn't avoid while playing, and Vinny was bothered because it felt at odds with the more mature themes of the story and other aspects of the game that he liked.

And those are perfectly valid things to say and feel. Being bothered by fan service and feeling like it does the greater work a disservice does not make someone sex negative/puritan. Just because you feel like you can separate it from the rest of the work, doesn't mean everyone can or has to.

Personally I just think the design is dumb. It didn’t distract me too much, or offend me. Really I just thought she looked uncomfortable. I also find it silly that 2B looks very much like healthy woman, while 9s looks like young boy. Which is what ultimately pushed me away from the game. I couldn’t take 9s seriously from word go.

I’m curious as to why no one has brought up 2b alternate outfit?

@sirpsychosexy91: So, like, do you just not get jokes or are you a living embodiment of Poe's Law?

@mrplatitude said:

Well what other interpretation is there?

As far I can see there's only two possible explanations: You don't like to see a sexually attractive representation of a person from a purely aesthetic sense, as though looking at a heteronormative attractive representation of a human is equivalent to looking at gore or clashing colors or something. Or you are uncomfortable, at a conceptual level, with the idea that at least some portion character's visual design was expressly designed to titillate. How is that not sex negativity?

To say a sexual attractive character is juvenile (the implication of it not fitting in with mature themes) is to imply that is not appropriate for an adult to enjoy sexual fantasy in any entertainment media except perhaps media specifically designed for that purpose (i.e. porn) and that sexually attractive characters can't be taken seriously. I don't know how you classify that as anything other than sex negativity and a holdover from Puritanism that says its not ok to experience and explore basic physical lust lightheartedly.

Thank you.

Highly stylized stuff like this don't need some perfect accurate reason to give characters a cool looking costume. 2B and 9S are designed that way because they look fucking awesome. end of story.

@darkeyehails: huh? If you're referring to the podcast it's clear they were joking towards Abby with the shirtless Mario comment, but I could also detect some annoyance from some of the guys when she kept bringing it up as a flaws of the game which shows how easily offended she gets when some skin is shown. Also you kind of have to be looking for it as Nier has a very intriguing story. Abby was picking at it and made it out to be some sex sim game.