GTFO if you want to bring mary jane into this. Let's talk about alcohol and its effects and uses, not how it compares to something else.
My brother is a year younger than I (34) and a functioning alcoholic. He goes to work, comes home, gets drunk and goes to sleep. His personality disappeared a few years ago for the most part. It's disgusting, and it will unfortunately probably be the end of him at some point.
What is so acceptable about this that it's still legal? It's not like he's anywhere near the only one.
I've never drank because I have lots of relatives whose lives were ruined because of alcohol (some also because of other drugs, but that's beside the point).
I agree, it shouldn't be legal. But as stated above, they tried to outlaw it, and it didn't work. Plus, the government probably gets tons of money from taxes on it (not sure if it's as much as they get from cigarettes though).
Comparing AIDs with Alcoholism is silly. If you wanted to compare Alcohol with say Marijuana (a debate that is not new), sure you can ask why is Weed legal and ALochol not. But AIDs is not a mental/physical disease like alcoholism, something that can be treated and overcome.
Wouldn't alcohol lead to violence? And hell, I bet a handful of those AIDS cases could be avoided if those people werent drunk while passing around needles and stuff like that.
" Comparing AIDs with Alcoholism is silly. If you wanted to compare Alcohol with say Marijuana (a debate that is not new), sure you can ask why is Weed legal and ALochol not. But AIDs is not a mental/physical disease like alcoholism, something that can be treated and overcome. "
The reason I don't want to talk about marijuana vs alcohol is that it's been done to death. And the comparison here (Alcohol vs AIDS) is in number of deaths, nothing more.
And yes its true prohibition didn't work, but I'm speaking more of forcing alcoholics to rehabs if they want their jobs than sending SWAT to bust up a steel.
I feel your pain, I've been close to people who are addicts. Some people just have personal issues that they need to work through though. Usually there are deeper issues that their addiction is there to cover up/deaden. Scapegoating alcohol for their problems isn't fair as it will always be some type of addiction that they get stuck into. Alcohol won't become illegal because it's a huge business and most people do enjoy it responsibly with minimal negative effects on society.
I've have come to the opinion that if you can not socialize with others and you need some kind of drug to do so, or you need some kind of drug to get around life, which is indeed very subpar for most of us, you are just poisening yourself so your slow suicide leads to you perishing and making room for others who can come by life or can socialize without the need of collective self poisening. Now I have to smoke a cigarette. Make way for better people than me.
@Fajita_Jim: I'm an alcoholic and I'm trying sobreity for a second time. Alcohol does nothing for me. I can't seem to function at all on alcochol and I've blacked out more times then I can remember. Wether alcohol should be legal or not is not something I take a stance on. Everyone has a right to make the decision to drink for themselfs. It sucks though when every single social situation is based around drinking.
The worst is when the victims themselves aren't even the ones drinking. When it's the husband that gets drunk and beats the wife, or when it's the drunk driver that kills a family.
Because when it isn't an issue of someone bringing it upon themselves, what are we supposed to blame?
" Lol @ people in this thread acting like alcohol isn't dangerous. "
It doesn't have to be though, it's up to the person. "
No, it is dangerous regardless of how much one ingests, it is just the effects are, comparatively, negligible at the low end of consumption. Alchohol is a poison regardless of how you look at it.
America criminalize it once. Anyone remember how it turned out? Alcohol is crazy dangerous. Alcohol prohibition, as it turns out, is pretty dangerous too, but prohibition isn't fun for anybody.
@CL60:@AlexW00d: I agree, but my point is that it's up to the person to start drinking it, and that leads to illness. It's perfectly possible to live in a world where people choose not to drink, in comparison Aids, TB etc. are not through choice and can't be avoided as easily.
Personally I've seen varying intensities of destruction whenever alcohol was involved. Anything from domestic violence (NEVER FUCKING LIVE WITH ROOMMATES WITH CRAZY GIRLFRIENDS), to public indecency which they ended up in jail, to straight up almost dying if we hadn't found our friend passed out in a snow bank on the side of the road in the middle of winter (Up in Minnesota mind you) with a blood alchohol level of .5. Thankfully he cleaned up and now will not touch a drop of booze.
Of course there are people that drink responsibly, but there are ALOT of people that do some pretty stupid shit. It is an interesting situation though how a society can be so socially acceptable of such a destructive drug like alcohol yet poo poo anything else. Like I always say, they should decriminalize it (you know) and tack on a healthy sin tax just like they do with anything else. In the end it's all about mo' money anyway and not the public's safety as far as the man is concerned, otherwise cigarettes would have been banned a long time ago, then again we would have never gotten so cool.
" @CL60:@AlexW00d: I agree, but my point is that it's up to the person to start drinking it, and that leads to illness. It's perfectly possible to live in a world where people choose not to drink, in comparison Aids, TB etc. are not through choice and can't be avoided as easily. "
I'm not sure if being a "Causal Factor" as your link says, means that alcohol is THE cause of all those deaths. And I would agree that PEOPLE kill, not alcohol.
That being said, I've been around alcoholics all my life too. I do understand your frustration. But "forcing alcoholics to rehabs if they want their jobs" ISN'T going to work, because the alcoholics would then just say fuck their jobs, and sit at home and collect welfare and drink their asses away. I know, I've seen it enough.
However, I also agree that alcohol DOESN'T have to be dangerous.
Here are some examples: I know a friend that for some reason, gets violent if he drinks whiskey. So he doesn't touch the shit. People can drink without getting to the point of being drunk. Imagine that! My husband and I both come from families of alcoholics, so we make sure not to drink too regularly, or too much when we do drink.
While you may find threads about how alcohol kill, I can just as easily turn around and find threads about the health benefits of alcohol when taken in moderation, like this one, for example: http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/AlcoholAndHealth.html
This thread is just another instance of "some people fuck up so we have to tell ALL people how to live their lives." Fuck that noise. I'm tired of the government telling me this or that just because some shitbags can't make the right decisions in their lives.
I really just don't like alcohol, I'll admit it scares me a bit. I grew up watching people get drunk and they were always just embarrassing to be with and look at. I always see people at concerts who have had one too many and end up picking fights over the stupidest shit ever. I know people joke about that stuff and that it's kind of the big draw to drinking, I just hate it. I have a family history of alcoholism so obviously there's some bias here. What I wish is that they would just legalize pot and let both substances co-exist, but that's a debate for another thread....
I get drunk on a weekly basis if not more than that.
I'm never violent, I haven't drank to the point of vomiting since I was like 16 or something, I've blacked out before but I'm never belligerent. I know I'm hurting my liver and body but I continue to do it. There are nights where I choose not to drink for whatever reason and I still have fun.
People are weak and need crutches. If alcohol is their drug(crutch) of choice and they abuse it; it is just as harmful as any other type of crutch. Abuse of anything is a personal fault not a product fault.
@melcene said:
" This thread is just another instance of "some people fuck up so we have to tell ALL people how to live their lives." Fuck that noise. I'm tired of the government telling me this or that just because some shitbags can't make the right decisions in their lives. "
Basically this. Some people are stronger than others, we shouldn't all have to suffer because of it.
" Comparing AIDs with Alcoholism is silly. If you wanted to compare Alcohol with say Marijuana (a debate that is not new), sure you can ask why is Weed legal and ALochol not. But AIDs is not a mental/physical disease like alcoholism, something that can be treated and overcome. "
The reason I don't want to talk about marijuana vs alcohol is that it's been done to death. And the comparison here (Alcohol vs AIDS) is in number of deaths, nothing more. And yes its true prohibition didn't work, but I'm speaking more of forcing alcoholics to rehabs if they want their jobs than sending SWAT to bust up a steel. "
Because at least in America you are not forced to deal with anything unless you want help. Not everyone needs to live up to your standard. While I am not defending alcoholics, I am defending the right to more or less be free. While they are currently only hurting themselves, once behind a wheel they will get a DUI, possibly arrested, etc. As you said your brother is a functioning alcoholic, he may be destroying his liver but that is for him to destroy and regret. Sure you can have an intervention for him but NO ONE but himself can decide to change.
" I've never drank because I have lots of relatives whose lives were ruined because of alcohol"
This is how I was when I was younger. My dad was an alcoholic and when I was in my early teens I was convinced that if I drank, I would become and alcoholic too. But when I was 18 I started drinking occasionally with friends, and learned that just because my dad couldn't limit himself doesn't mean I cant. So now, we spend a night drinking maybe once or twice a month.
Learning from other people's mistakes is great and all, but don't let it stifle life experiences. People drink for a reason, its fun. If you don't think you have enough control over your life to prevent you from destroying it with a liquid, then thats fine. But if you do, live it up.
As for the topic in general, the government shouldn't outlaw alcohol. It's not the governments job to make sure people are taking personal responsibility of their lives. If someone wants to drink themselves to death, that's not the government's problem. Unfortunately you have to take into consideration all the deaths caused by drunk driving, which more often than not damages the lives on innocent by-standards, but its not like police aren't making an effort to control that.
" Lol @ people in this thread acting like alcohol isn't dangerous. "
It doesn't have to be though, it's up to the person. "
No it's not. A lot of people make bad decisions when they're drunk. Because they can't think straight. "
It was their choice to drink too much though. You choose to be sober, drink, or get drunk. "
@Chabbs0 said:
" @CL60:@AlexW00d: I agree, but my point is that it's up to the person to start drinking it, and that leads to illness. It's perfectly possible to live in a world where people choose not to drink, in comparison Aids, TB etc. are not through choice and can't be avoided as easily. "
I don't think that's the line of argument you should be thinking of. Alcohol, like any judgement depriving substance, causes people to make bad choices. Such choices effect people that had no "decision" at all. Someone who is killed by a drunk driver had no choice in the matter. That's why such substances can be considered dangerous. Being a danger to oneself is one thing. Being a danger to society is quite another.
" Lol @ people in this thread acting like alcohol isn't dangerous. "
It doesn't have to be though, it's up to the person. "
No it's not. A lot of people make bad decisions when they're drunk. Because they can't think straight. "
It was their choice to drink too much though. You choose to be sober, drink, or get drunk. "
@Chabbs0 said:
" @CL60:@AlexW00d: I agree, but my point is that it's up to the person to start drinking it, and that leads to illness. It's perfectly possible to live in a world where people choose not to drink, in comparison Aids, TB etc. are not through choice and can't be avoided as easily. "
I don't think that's the line of argument you should be thinking of. Alcohol, like any judgement depriving substance, causes people to make bad choices. Such choices effect people that had no "decision" at all. Someone who is killed by a drunk driver had no choice in the matter. That's why such substances can be considered dangerous. Being a danger to oneself is one thing. Being a danger to society is quite another. "
What about the hundreds of thousands of people who, despite being drunk, make the right decision? People like me who, whenever out at a bar, call a cab for the ride home? If anything, the more I drink the more likely I am to make the decision to not drive home.
" Lol @ people in this thread acting like alcohol isn't dangerous. "
It doesn't have to be though, it's up to the person. "
No it's not. A lot of people make bad decisions when they're drunk. Because they can't think straight. "
It was their choice to drink too much though. You choose to be sober, drink, or get drunk. "
@Chabbs0 said:
" @CL60:@AlexW00d: I agree, but my point is that it's up to the person to start drinking it, and that leads to illness. It's perfectly possible to live in a world where people choose not to drink, in comparison Aids, TB etc. are not through choice and can't be avoided as easily. "
I don't think that's the line of argument you should be thinking of. Alcohol, like any judgement depriving substance, causes people to make bad choices. Such choices effect people that had no "decision" at all. Someone who is killed by a drunk driver had no choice in the matter. That's why such substances can be considered dangerous. Being a danger to oneself is one thing. Being a danger to society is quite another. "
What about the hundred of thousands of people who, despite being drunk, make the right decision? People like me who, whenever out at a bar, call a cab for the ride home? If anything, the more I drink the more likely I am to make the decision to not drive home. "
I should probably clarify myself. I am not going to assert an opinion on whether alcohol should be banned one way or another. For the record, I don't really know. However there is more than just the "it's the drinkers' own choice" in terms of arguments, and that's what I was asserting.
So is chocolate. To pretend that alcohol is inherently dangerous is naive at best. I'm willing to bet that most of the hoopla in this thread is coming from kids with a shitty perspective. That stupid people do stupid things when drunk means very little. I suspect that most of the people here consider alcohol to simply be a means of getting drunk because that is what they and/or their college age cohorts do. Most drinkers do not get drunk very often. A glass of wine with dinner is perfectly fine. Some frat-cunt that beer-bongs Bud Light until he passes out has no bearing on the matter. I've never met an obnoxious drunk who was not simply an obnoxious shit-heel when sober. I've never known a kind and well tempered man who suddenly beats his wife because he had a touch too much gin. Maybe when some of you grow up, you'll realize that alcohol is not some big, bad boogeyman making people idiots; it is a drink that is enjoyed by many, some of whom are already idiots. "
No it isn't, it is correct. To think it only becomes dangerous at high levels is naive if anything. Even a high school chemistry student knows about hydrocarbons and their uses and properties. And yes, people are idiotic regardless of alcohol, but less idiotic people definitely become more idiotic with more alcohol. Why are we adding fuel to their already out of control flames?
@CL60: Alcohol IS dangerous. A former British government advisor did a study into the harm caused by various drugs, both legal & illegal, on scales of both dependency & physical harm. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rational_scale_to_assess_the_harm_of_drugs_%28mean_physical_harm_and_mean_dependence%29.svg It's worth a look if you have any interest in these things. He rates it as more dangerous than LSD, ecstasy & cannabis, & up there with amphetamine & Ketamine.
The main reason is that life for most people these days in modern western society is pretty tedious. Drugs break that monotony of the grind up, make life's disappointments easier to endure. Well, that & the fact that it's pretty much always been legal & apart of western culture in a way that no other recreational drug other than tobacco comes close to. The fact is that grown-up adults should be free to do as they wish to their own bodies. If someone wants to cover themselves in tattoos, to cut themself with a razor blade, to smoke a joint, get pissed, injected some smack, that's that persons choices. It's my body & I'll fuck it up in anyway I choose to.
There are also people who have had their lives ruined by video games. Should we let the government regulate everything because some people can't control themselves?
" Lol @ people in this thread acting like alcohol isn't dangerous. "
It doesn't have to be though, it's up to the person. "
No it's not. A lot of people make bad decisions when they're drunk. Because they can't think straight. "
It was their choice to drink too much though. You choose to be sober, drink, or get drunk. "
@Chabbs0 said:
" @CL60:@AlexW00d: I agree, but my point is that it's up to the person to start drinking it, and that leads to illness. It's perfectly possible to live in a world where people choose not to drink, in comparison Aids, TB etc. are not through choice and can't be avoided as easily. "
I don't think that's the line of argument you should be thinking of. Alcohol, like any judgement depriving substance, causes people to make bad choices. Such choices effect people that had no "decision" at all. Someone who is killed by a drunk driver had no choice in the matter. That's why such substances can be considered dangerous. Being a danger to oneself is one thing. Being a danger to society is quite another. "
What about the hundred of thousands of people who, despite being drunk, make the right decision? People like me who, whenever out at a bar, call a cab for the ride home? If anything, the more I drink the more likely I am to make the decision to not drive home. "
I should probably clarify myself. I am not going to assert an opinion on whether alcohol should be banned one way or another. For the record, I don't really know. However there is more than just the "it's the drinkers' own choice" in terms of arguments, and that's what I was putting out there. "
Oh yeah, I know. I'm mostly just playing devils advocate. I just dont want anyone to discount the "right" decisions people make every weekend under the influence of alcohol.
Alcohol is a double edge sword. I've had my problems with it too, but nothing serious because I know my family history and keep my drinking in moderation. I work out and get a lot of exercise so my body can produce enough endorphin to keep my brain chemically satisfied. I learned a while ago, that I could either become ultra-man, or an alcoholic.
The gist: All the popular drugs have been measured by several independant groups and research on scales of "harm to self", "harm to others", "mortality", "damage", "dependence", "mental functioning", "crime", "loss of relationships" and so on and so forth. Adjusted for spread and availability, of course.
Alcohol took the top spot, above mushrooms, LSD.. even heroin and meth.
Just so that everyone is in the picture.
I say that there needs to be a publicly accepted and available drug and that it doesn't matter which it is. If weed was legal and alcohol wasn't, there wouldn't really be a difference in the world.
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