Do you believe we have the RIGHT to bear arms/own weapons? (Q of the Day 8-26-10)

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DragonBloodthirsty

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In the United States we are supposed to.  Personally, I'm convinced that the distinction between "tools" and "weapons" is a bit of a joke, since most tools are weapons when used accordingly.

I'm convinced that, from history, the disarmament of people has never led to their better treatment.  Combine that with the fact that violence simply won't ever go away, and you have a hard time finding a way to justify disallowing weapons, especially weapons that put every living person on as even a field as guns do.

Since I'm also convinced that weapons will simply never go away (too many can be improvised anyway) completely, I find it hard to justify why some people are allowed to have weapons sometimes and not at others.  I also think that gun controls (in particular) have a much bigger impact on law-abiding citizens than they do on criminals, since by the time you're willing to kill somebody using a weapon, you're usually willing to blow off permit laws.

This is completely ignoring the fact that many weapons aren't even used against other human beings (although they could be).  Flamethrowers are essential for fighting off killer bees in some locations, for example, and don't even require a permit.

My last two cents is that the only rights you have are the ones you adamantly refuse to give up.  If you don't have the right to defend yourself when you need to, using whatever means available, then you don't have any rights at all.  As an American, I agree with Ben Franklin on this point:  Those who trade liberty for security deserve neither and will lose both.

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PNut_Buttr_Panda

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@Bevinsky: 
so your saying if the second amendment wasnt included then we wouldnt have gun toting criminals? hmmm. somehow i dont think you can uninvent the automobile. but you can the gun hu?
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PNut_Buttr_Panda

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@mominshahab: 
i believe it say the RIGHT to bear arms. that whole "shall not be infringed" part makes sure its not just a privilege. privilages can be revoked  rights are inalienable...
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necrotoxin

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#154  Edited By necrotoxin

Americans have the right to own a gun. All these people against guns are just kidding themselves into a false since of security.  Taking away guns from law abiding citizens only makes it easier for crime and violence to happen. Criminals will still find a way to get guns, or they will simply use other types of weapons. Guns used responsibly are nothing to fear. Also knowing that a family has the possibility of having a weapon in the house could deter a criminal from trying to break in. 

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lazyturtle

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#155  Edited By lazyturtle
@PNut_Buttr_Panda:   inalienable rights cannot be taken away. If you are a convicted felon, you may not be able to possess a gun (depends on the state/crime I think). 
 
@Necrotoxin:  To be fair, anyone who is considering breaking into a house with people in it with the intention of doing them harm isn't going to be deterred by you having a gun. The kind of people will be deterred are those that don't want to harm anyone, just rob the house.  Those same people are going to avoid houses where someone is home, so the gun isn't really an issue. I'm fairly sure that most murders are committed by someone you know, not a random home invader. 
 
To be a devil's advocate for a moment...should places like England have much higher rate of murder/gun crime than the USA by your argument? I mean the criminals don't care about breaking the law right, so all of them would arm themselves with guns.     But statistically England's murder rate is much lower. Explain. 
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wolfgang212

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#156  Edited By wolfgang212

Well. The right to bear arms is guaranteed by our constitution. Whether you believe that we have the right to bear arms or not doesn't matter... because we do.

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lazyturtle

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#157  Edited By lazyturtle
@GIVEMEREPLAY:  By your argument everyone in Japan and England (two examples of countries that don't allow handguns)should be victims of crime constantly. But the statistics don't seem to reflect that, they actually show you're more likely to be murdered in the USA.  I honestly don't think the murder rate will go down much if guns were suddenly gone, but it would go down. The reason is obvious: Stabbing someone to death takes a lot more mental commitment than shooting them. Its slower. Theres LOTS of blood while you're doing it. Its more visceral. 

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Skytylz

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#158  Edited By Skytylz

Yah, if you're in the US, it's a Constitutional right and I own a gun. 
 
@BunkerBuster said:

" I don't believe it should be a "right" but I do believe that some people should be able to have them.  People like police, firefighters, bodyguards, persons with advanced training and special licenses etc.  Right now, any person who is not a convicted felon can buy one per week, which is where I think the problem lies. It would also help deter gun based crimes if the consequences for a conviction was automatic life in prison. "

Why the fuck with would a firefighter need a gun? 
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jackbag

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#159  Edited By jackbag

Of course we do. 
 
We shouldn't, but we do.

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Gunner

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#160  Edited By Gunner

I  would like to meet the person that gives these rights out to people, oh wait, there isnt one.

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lazyturtle

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#161  Edited By lazyturtle
@iFail: Lets imagine for a moment that the military decides to stage a coup. They're not trying to win hearts and minds (as the US military says it is trying to do), they're only interested in dominating the population. Sure, some of them might die, but large groups of citizens can easily be subjugated by a few well armed, well trained men. I mean you don't hear about people on SWAT teams getting killed very often do you? They're confronting people who are armed and ready to fight. 
So you might "make it hard on them" for a few minutes..right before their superior organization, training and equipment allow them to kill you. I mean don't forget about things like predator drones, helicopters, tanks and APCs. 
I have no doubt that if the US soldiers just started executing everyone who caused trouble right then and there (Taliban style), those countries would be subjugated very quickly.
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tmthomsen

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#162  Edited By tmthomsen

Would love to see a breakdown of American/foreign voters :)

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Skytylz

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#163  Edited By Skytylz
@TheSilentTruth said:
" I wish that it was illegal for a citizen (here in the US) to own a gun, just for the sake of a lower murder rate. To me, only law enforcement (as well as the branches of the military and so on) should have them. "
There are a lot more ways to kill people than using a gun. 
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hatking

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#164  Edited By hatking


Yes, we have the right.  This is infallible, it is in black and white, we do have that right.   
 
The question would be, "should we carry weapons?"  Or "are gun laws too lenient?" 
 

I do not believe there is a need to carry a weapon(but I suppose I can't deny your right to own one), and further, I believe that the enforcement of current gun laws is not being taken seriously enough.

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mrfizzy

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#165  Edited By mrfizzy

im going to comment on this from my perspective. im a Aussie and we used to have gun laws much the same as the US, then in 1996 a guy went on a killing spree at a large tourist destination called Port Arthur. He killed 35 people including American tourists. After that we changed our laws so that ALL semi-auto weapons are illegal, as are ALL handguns of any sort (except target pistols). In other words, if you want to own a gun in Australia today you can only own a bolt-action rifle, a single barrel shotgun or a double barrel shotgun and only if you have a gun license issued by the police.  Despite what a lot of people say now and said at the time we changed our gun laws, illegal guns are not at all common here, we have very little gun crime and few gun deaths (and most of the gun deaths we do have are hunting accidents and the like). Ill admit that my country is an island which would make customs easier to enforce etc. I guess my main point is that it is possible to change your gun laws successfully, even if it does take a lot of time and effort.  

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GIVEMEREPLAY

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#166  Edited By GIVEMEREPLAY
@lazyturtle said:

" @GIVEMEREPLAY:  By your argument everyone in Japan and England (two examples of countries that don't allow handguns)should be victims of crime constantly. But the statistics don't seem to reflect that, they actually show you're more likely to be murdered in the USA.  I honestly don't think the murder rate will go down much if guns were suddenly gone, but it would go down. The reason is obvious: Stabbing someone to death takes a lot more mental commitment than shooting them. Its slower. Theres LOTS of blood while you're doing it. Its more visceral.  "

They are victims of crime at a far higher rate. Take the UK for instance. 
 

http://www.nationmaster.com/http://www.http://www. 

You're 2x more likely to be a victim of rape, robbery and burglary in the UK than in the US. 

There were over 10,000 incidents of knife  crime in London alone in 2008. London, mind you, has under 8 million people, and the U.S. has 300 million. I can’t even find numbers on U.S. knife  crime. It isn’t a major issue here. Source: http://www.guardian.

According to the FBI, in 2005 the U.S. had 469.2 crimes per 100,000 people.http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/

According to the Home Office, in the september to september (2004/2005) timeframe covered in the report, there were 2,420,000 violent crimes in the UK. There were 60.6 million people in the UK in 2006. That translates to about 3992.8 violent crimes in the UK per 100,000 people. https://www.cia.gov/http://www.

You could argue that the UK survey reports lesser crimes (like verbal threats) as violent crimes, but that doesn’t account for the colossal figure. If someone can present better numbers, I’m all ears.

That means that the U.K. had 850% more violent  crime in the 2004/2005 time period than the U.S. had in 2005. The 2004/2005 time period is not two years, but rather a September to September study, so it isn’t appropriate to cut that number in half. Even if we did, it’s a colossal figure, and much greater than the U.S. numbers. 

 
 Neither England nor Japan had a large amount of handguns in them from the outset, so they had an easier time banning guns. This doesn't mean they don't have gun violence, and they still have plenty of other forms of brutality.     
 
It seems you're offering two choices- live in a society where guns are prevalent but where individuals can protect themselves with the same potency as any criminal can muster, or live in a country where the innocent are defenseless targets and where you rely on the mental commitment of a stabbing to dissuade the criminal elements.  
 
I'll take the former.  
 
 
@mrfizzy 

 

im going to comment on this from my perspective. im a Aussie and we used to have gun laws much the same as the US, then in 1996 a guy went on a killing spree at a large tourist destination called Port Arthur. He killed 35 people including American tourists. After that we changed our laws so that ALL semi-auto weapons are illegal, as are ALL handguns of any sort (except target pistols). In other words, if you want to own a gun in Australia today you can only own a bolt-action rifle, a single barrel shotgun or a double barrel shotgun and only if you have a gun license issued by the police.  Despite what a lot of people say now and said at the time we changed our gun laws, illegal guns are not at all common here, we have very little gun crime and few gun deaths (and most of the gun deaths we do have are hunting accidents and the like). Ill admit that my country is an island which would make customs easier to enforce etc. I guess my main point is that it is possible to change your gun laws successfully, even if it does take a lot of time and effort.  

So your entire nation of 21 million was forced to disarm itself because one guy killed 35 people? That's sensible to you? How many additional rapes, muggings, burglaries and murders has that produced as a product of an unarmed populace? Considering the high rate of burglary (3x as high as the US), robbery (2x as high as the US) and rape (3x as high as the US, all according to the same nationmaster stats I posted regarding the UK) it certainly hasn't helped.  
 
In any case the rate of violent crime in australia per capita continues to rise despite the lack of firearms, and it seems to have been quite low before the ban. 
http://www.aic.gov.au/en/publications/current%20series/cfi/101-120/cfi115.aspx
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TheHT

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#167  Edited By TheHT

We don't have any rights intrinsically.
 
Owning a weapon is justifiable though.

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damnboyadvance

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#168  Edited By damnboyadvance

Yes. People have the right to protect themselves from those who abuse that right.

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Black_Raven

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#169  Edited By Black_Raven

Well in America you DO have the right to own guns, but do I agree with that right? Hell no! It's not that I have a problem with guns, it's the people that own them that concerns me.

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BunkerBuster

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#170  Edited By BunkerBuster
@Skytylz: A few firefighters, like Fire Marshals, carry Firearms. Whether they "need" them isn't really something I can answer but I'm sure they have them for a reason.
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#171  Edited By Franstone

Um... Last I checked we do have the right to bear arms...  
I believe it's in the Constitution... 
 
Wah wah wahhhhh!  ; ) 
 
Sorry, had to say it.
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Hashbrowns

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#172  Edited By Hashbrowns
@TheHT said:

"We don't have any rights intrinsically. "


Reading things like this just... it's beyond frustrating.  It angers and saddens me in equal measure.  Gamers will work themselves into a righteous fury decrying the evil and malicious nature of DRM as being invasive, but then go on to praise a power-hungry ruling class that is wiedling authoritarian control over the most basic and vital areas of our lives, be it education, employment, or health care.
 
But what does it matter what I say here?  If you don't believe in intrinsic, individual God-given rights, then there's little use in a forum argument.  I'll just say that I hope you think about it, critically and with an honest appraisal of human nature.  You can disagree, of course, and can express it freely.  That's your intrinsic right, after all.
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habster3

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#173  Edited By habster3
@Meowayne said:
"No, and I regard everyone who does as dangerous and slightly retarded. "
You're looking for trouble, friend; I don't apply to either one of those categories (In fact, my IQ is 150), and I own a gun. Typical liberal.
@gingertastic_10 said:

"Yes. It's just there are some people out there that abuse that right. And those people get the attention of the press, and they yell foul. "

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GIVEMEREPLAY

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#174  Edited By GIVEMEREPLAY
@habster3 said:
" @Meowayne said:
"No, and I regard everyone who does as dangerous and slightly retarded. "
You're looking for trouble, friend; I don't apply to either one of those categories (In fact, my IQ is 150), and I own a gun. Typical liberal.
@gingertastic_10 said:

"Yes. It's just there are some people out there that abuse that right. And those people get the attention of the press, and they yell foul. "

"
If you had an IQ that high you would recognize that you can't determine someone's political leaning from a single position. Now stop citing spark.com IQ tests as if they were legitimate. 
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toowalrus

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#175  Edited By toowalrus

I think I've got the right to keep the King of England out of my face.

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habster3

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#176  Edited By habster3
@GIVEMEREPLAY said:
" @habster3 said:
" @Meowayne said:
"No, and I regard everyone who does as dangerous and slightly retarded. "
You're looking for trouble, friend; I don't apply to either one of those categories (In fact, my IQ is 150), and I own a gun. Typical liberal.
@gingertastic_10 said:

"Yes. It's just there are some people out there that abuse that right. And those people get the attention of the press, and they yell foul. "

"
If you had an IQ that high you would recognize that you can't determine someone's political leaning from a single position. Now stop citing spark.com IQ tests as if they were legitimate.  "
Now that I think about it, my response was too harsh; I really can't know that kind of information, and I often make rash statements. Also, I do NOT use spark.com; I use legitimate IQ tests, and I really have that high of an IQ. I just overreacted. However, Meowayne's statement was a generalization and stereotype, as well as a flat-out incorrect view of the world of guns.
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habster3

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#177  Edited By habster3
@Black_Raven said:
"Well in America you DO have the right to own guns, but do I agree with that right? Hell no! It's not that I have a problem with guns, it's the people that own them that concerns me. "
Once again, another stereotype of the gun world. Just like with Christianity, the minority in the gun world cause controversy, scaring anyone who is not part of that culture.
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deactivated-5ba16609964d9

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I will be God damned if them Democrats take away my sweet pair of Grizzly arms!

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wjkelso

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#179  Edited By wjkelso
@JB16 said:
" I believe people have the right to defend themselves. And if the want to use their LEGAL weapon to defend themselves from danger then more power to them.  However some guns are unnecessary, I can't think of a single reason as to why someone would need an assault rifle (AR-15, AK-47, etc.) semi-automatic or not, they are overpowered weapons that shouldn't be in civilian hands in my honest opinion. I mean a shootout with a burglar would only require a pistol or a shotgun since your at close range anyway, plus it's not needed for hunting because who needs a 30 round magazine to put down a deer? "
I completely agree, guns aren't necessary for defending yourself when no one else has a gun. 
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GIVEMEREPLAY

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#180  Edited By GIVEMEREPLAY
@wjkelso said:

" @JB16 said:

" I believe people have the right to defend themselves. And if the want to use their LEGAL weapon to defend themselves from danger then more power to them.  However some guns are unnecessary, I can't think of a single reason as to why someone would need an assault rifle (AR-15, AK-47, etc.) semi-automatic or not, they are overpowered weapons that shouldn't be in civilian hands in my honest opinion. I mean a shootout with a burglar would only require a pistol or a shotgun since your at close range anyway, plus it's not needed for hunting because who needs a 30 round magazine to put down a deer? "

I completely agree, guns aren't necessary for defending yourself when no one else has a gun.  "  
1. You can never assure that no one else has a gun. 
2. In a world without guns the person with the strongest body can impose themselves on weaker people in any way they choose, whether it be robbery, rape or murder.  That's fundamentally unfair. 
3. Knives have almost always existed (in human history) and will always exist. Knives will kill you just as dead, and quieter too. If you ever get stabbed with a knife you'll wish you had a gun handy to at least have some chance of preventing it. 
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jakob187

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#181  Edited By jakob187

I believe we have the RIGHT to protect ourselves.  I don't believe that means anyone has the right to have weapons notoriously known for being used in order to murder people.  Mind you, that brings up the argument "well, anything can be used to kill someone"...but there is a strong difference between a gun and a rope. 
 
@oraknabo said:

" @ProfessorEss said:
 Let's be honest, the government can send any agency they want to come get you or your family at any time, justly or unjustly, and you turn a gun on them - you're going to find out how little "right" you actually have to bear those arms.    
Exactly, the Branch Davidians weren't exactly lacking in guns and now how many of them are left?  "
The Koreshians also had absolutely NO reason to HAVE firearms other than to claim an amendment that said they could.  Moreover, they were unregistered firearms.  I remember when he used to play with his band down at The Rusty Spur (over on 77), and he was a creepy muthafucker.  Hell, a good handful of the people in his "Koreshians" were people that would get drunk at The Spur, and they just bought into his shit.  Don't get me wrong - The Spur was, is, and will probably always be a bit on the country side of bars, so there is a certain stereotype that some people could lend to some of its patrons.  At the same time, I've known plenty of folks that have gone there (I've been there a few times myself), and there are good people there as well. 
 
In the end, Koresh was a fucking loony, and he used religion as a way to con people into some bad shit.  Many will say Branch Davidians are a cult of some sort, but Branch Davidians are actually an off-shoot of 7th Day Adventists, which is a Protestant sect.  The group that Koresh led are typically referred to as "Koreshians", and many of the Branch Davidian faith refuse to be associated with the "Koreshians".  Meanwhile, the entirety of the Branch Davidian faith have been excommunicated from the 7th Day Adventists.  it's a twisted web. 
 
Basically, the Koreshians were made up of people looking for answers, conned by the falsity of Koresh, and eventually led to them dying.  Sure, we can say "stupid people gone, whatever".  Nonetheless, there was no reason for them to hold the siege other than the fact that Koresh was brainwashing people. 
 
 
Sorry.  I'm from Waco, lived here during the entire thing, and have studied it extensively.  It's a touchy subject around here.
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GIVEMEREPLAY

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#182  Edited By GIVEMEREPLAY
@jakob187 said:
I believe we have the RIGHT to protect ourselves.  I don't believe that means anyone has the right to have weapons notoriously known for being used in order to murder people.  Mind you, that brings up the argument "well, anything can be used to kill someone"...but there is a strong difference between a gun and a rope.   
What's a strong difference? In any case there doesn't seem to be a "strong difference" between a gun and a knife. British thugs will kill you with a smile every bit as much as an American thug will with a gun. Funny that you think we have a right to protect ourselves, but no right to the device that often makes such protection possible.
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Goldanas

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#183  Edited By Goldanas
@haggis: Sounds good, man. Thanks for calling me lazy. Appreciate it. I'll try to post more relevant sources like you do next time. 
 
When you make a comparison of one situation to another, you cannot pick and choose what aspects of it appeal to you best to better prove your point. You have to look at all sides, but like every time we've gone off on tangents like this, it doesn't matter. I've already said I agree with you, and I will concede again to your point of shooting animals robbing farmers. It is not as essential to all life as water is, but is very essential to those farmers' lives. 
 
Despite the relevance of what I posted, you can go ahead and have that argument. You can hypocritically call me lazy again or pick apart one line out of context again, it's all good, bro. 
   
I admit I was wrong and was certainly ignorant of several matters before having this divisive, but enlightening, conversation with you. I probably deserve all of your slings due to my reckless, overzealous rant that inspired you to pinpoint individual phrases. 
 
So thank you for being so passionate about something that is so important to you and putting up with my ignorance. I will think more carefully the next time I post.
 
@jackbag said:
" Of course we do. 
 
We shouldn't, but we do. "
This about sums up what I have taken from this thread.
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Daveyo520

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#184  Edited By Daveyo520

I wish there was a "kinda" option.

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RJMacReady

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#185  Edited By RJMacReady

 

@OmegaChosen: 

Altruism in itself can be construed to be a form of ethics based upon a moral obligation to protect others. In order to truly be free of morals these other-oriented emotions towards "defective or old cogs" must be suppressed and the cogs removed from an otherwise "perfect" system. I'm sure you see a flaw somewhere in here though.   

Altruism's likely foundation is the survival of an individual as integrating into a social order has many benefits like division of labor and access to mates.  A likely explanation of why people do not destroy the helpless is because it would destabilize cooperation resulting in a breakdown of the social order and thus the efficiency and survival gains from cooperating. Those that signal they wish to destroy the weak are signaling that if you become a potential liability, even temporarily, you can be under threat.  In addition cooperation is likely facilitated via memory Trivers (71) "evolution of reciprocal altruism". Memory serves as an accounting mechanism that allows individuals to reconcile others that provide value and those that do not. Without an enforcement mechanism mutation would permit a purely selfish rather then "selfishly altruistic" entity to thrive and suppress a putative "pure altruist". Behaving in ways that are overtly selfish to the point of sociopathy would just cause suspension of systematic cooperation.
 
Those that signal pure intentions ( even if they are not) stand to make relatively major gains in a simple social order so aiding the weak or elderly is a potential means of generating "social capital". For example: 

In a society where there is abundant need for aid there are plenty of opportunities for individuals to take advantage of or attempt to “socially monetize” that need. Saving the child of your neighbor in the hut-next-door from drowning would no doubt be acknowledged and lauded by members of your tribe or small social order. If by some chance you had the good fortune to save every tribesman’s/woman’s child at the same time your tribal market value would likely increase. If by some totally improbable chance you had the opportunity to save every tribesman’s/woman’s child at the same time every week for 3 years your value to the tribe would experience additional gains and you would likely never have to hunt or repair your hut again, you may even receive sexual rewards which would just facilitate enhancing the % various genes you carry in society would be expressed in the population. Actions like this with low risk vs. high reward ratio would net robust fitness gains as other members of the tribe would see you as an asset and there would likely be incoming gains from members who observed your superficially beneficent actions.  Under the hood we are likely optimized to wanting to engage in low cost sacrifice for others bcs it makes rational economic sense with regards to potential gains from proximal agents.
 
As for those that merely signal the virtues of altruism publicly, this itself is typically costless to the self-promoting actor. It's rather difficult to know, even more so in a global economic order who is really sincere or who'es rhetoric matches the magnitude of their actions. Thus in modern society where its' more difficult to observe our "tribesman" it can be very profitable to engage in the rhetoric of an altruist but not follow it up in practice because of the concealment complex society offers. Others wishing to graft altruistic dynamics onto a global cooperative effort are likely to find the foundational necessities of a proto-market, like memory, don't scale well.
 
Further complicating this is biological self-deception.
 

“If... deceit is fundamental to animal communication, then there must be strong selection to spot deception and this ought, in turn, to select for a degree of self-deception, rendering some facts and motives unconscious so as not to betray — by the subtle signs of self-knowledge — the deception being practiced.' Thus, 'the conventional view that natural selection favors nervous systems which produce ever more accurate images of the world must be a very naive view of mental evolution.”-Robert Trivers

 Because of this spotting the false signaling altruist via rhetoric alone is even more difficult especially when he isn’t, himself, aware his love for his fellow man is driven by selfish motives.
 
Altruism, and the missives its’ spawns, Meh, I’m not impressed.


 

@Gunner:


 I  would like to meet the person that gives these rights out to people, oh wait, there isnt one.

Society gives people rights. The only question is, how do you determine what are societies “true” preferences ? What methodology do you use to extract your “social welfare function”?

Hint: Don’t say democracy.

As for guns, yes please. No I don’t trust the state. And UK stats cherry-pickers need to include knife crime death/assaults which occurs at a higher rate than knife crime in the US.
 


 

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wjkelso

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#186  Edited By wjkelso
@GIVEMEREPLAY:  
 
I completely disagree, just compare firearm related deaths for countries where guns are legal or illegal. 
 
Re. 1. Carrying a gun to defend yourself against someone else carrying a gun will only escalate any situation you get into. 
Re. 2. That's life 
 Re. 3. Knives are for kitchens.
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#187  Edited By Icemael
@Video_Game_King said:

" @Icemael: Yea, Nietzsche did have some pretty cool ideas, but for the debate, he's somewhat irrelevant. It seems we've reached a bit of an impasse on the master morality thing in that we're at "I like it/you don't like it.." I don't think we'll get any more value from it. "

Master morality is based on a lie. It seems to me you like it only because you feel some sort of need for morals, and I don't understand why. 
 
@Video_Game_King said:

" Instead, let me argue against the tricking into obedience thing you're fixated on. You speak of religion as if it's some all-powerful force tricking people into doing things for its own benefit. You know, like it's something outside humanity. I'd say the reality is that people not only brought this upon themselves, but wanted it brought upon themselves. Follow this thought experiment with me:
 
Let's go back to when mankind first invented religion, and then a bit before that. Now let's say some guy comes along and says that there's no god, and that their lives are largely meaningless, as a result. Would early man accept this super-depressing proposal? Hell no, because nobody wants to hear that shit! They'd kill that guy and wait for somebody to come along and say what they want to hear. If anybody forced religion on mankind, it was mankind itself. Even if somebody came along and tried to free mankind from this omnipotent trickster (let's call it "Loki", because that just sounds cooler), what then? I doubt people would simply be able to move away from religion that easily, especially since mankind's the one still doing it. "

What you speak of is religion which, while it encompasses morals, consists of much more. Back when it was conceived, it explained phenomena that mankind has only recently been able to properly study -- lightning, rain et cetera -- and convincing someone that his explanations for things he doesn't understand are dumb is hard if you can't provide better explanations, and make him see why they are better. Religion is also something that, when believed in, becomes very deeply rooted. To stop believing, a religious man has to admit to himself that he's been basing his way of life on lies, and that's a very hard thing to do. 
 
@Video_Game_King said: 

" Now let's say some guy comes along and says that there's no god, and that their lives are largely meaningless, as a result. Would early man accept this super-depressing proposal? "

This is bullshit. There is absolutely nothing pessimistic about immorality -- on the contrary, it's extremely optimistic. Once one gets rid of morals, one realizes that one's life is the most important thing in the entire Universe.
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apoptosis61

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#188  Edited By apoptosis61
@JSUMAN said:
" @apoptosis61 said:
" all i fucking want is real democracy..... "
1) Form a book club 2) vote to see what book you'll read  Take what you can get. 300,000,000 people is a bit much for a functional democracy. "
good idea , i am not the first and not the last one to get some sheeps under my 'command'
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#189  Edited By Leptok

Yeah. I'm pretty liberal, but I friggin hate gun control. I don't own, but it's a freedom that I hope never gets curtailed. It's a lot easier to keep a right than try to regain it.

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#190  Edited By YoThatLimp
@gingertastic_10 said:
" Yes. It's just there are some people out there that abuse that right. And those people get the attention of the press, and they yell foul. "
Like?
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#191  Edited By Bobdaman18

If you guys have the time i recommend reading Death from a Distance (http://www.deathfromadistance.com/).  I just took the class with the professor who wrote the book and it was really eye opening.  It basically explains that human uniqueness, the reason we are the dominant species, is due to our ability to throw rocks.  It orignally allowed us to fill in the role of power scavengers but later provided us with as inexpensive way of projecting threat on others.  In turn this allowed us to ostracise freeloaders and eventually form societies. 
 
Pretty much every major advancement we made as a species (agricultural revolution, industrial revolution, etc) came because of the development of a new weapon that allowed threat to be projected even further or more cheaply.  Firearms were such an advancement because the time required to become proficient with one is far less than something like a bow and arrow.  The theory argues that firearms is what allowed women to gain equal rights as citizens in the US. 
 
Even before the class i supported gun ownership, just because something has the potential to be harmful doesn't mean it should be banned outright, just the harmful activities should be banned.  Now after this class i kind of feel like it is my duty to own a firearm.  I currently just have a .22 rifle from when i was a kid but lately i've been looking into upgrading to maybe a handgun of some kind.  I don't really believe in the whole "having a gun to shoot ppl that try to mess with me" exactly.  I don't even plan to keep any gun in my house, i plan on leaving it in the gun locker at my dad's house.  But i do agree that possibility of anyone having a gun is a good crime deterrent.
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Stefan

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#192  Edited By Stefan

Economically guns make sense, people seem to love guns. And most shootings victims are not well earning people or even unemployed criminals so politicians couldn't care less. You are killing two birds with one stone, on the one hand you earn money by legally selling guns and on the other hand you get rid of the lower class. 
Then again you could also sell guns without the lethal part: There are unbelievably many gun clubs in Germany, I think almost every town has one but they only use air guns. This seems to be satisfying, too. 
To me it is crazy that more people voted yes than no.

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deactivated-5c86670f38adc

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@lazyturtle said:
" @iFail: Lets imagine for a moment that the military decides to stage a coup. They're not trying to win hearts and minds (as the US military says it is trying to do), they're only interested in dominating the population. Sure, some of them might die, but large groups of citizens can easily be subjugated by a few well armed, well trained men. I mean you don't hear about people on SWAT teams getting killed very often do you? They're confronting people who are armed and ready to fight. So you might "make it hard on them" for a few minutes..right before their superior organization, training and equipment allow them to kill you. I mean don't forget about things like predator drones, helicopters, tanks and APCs. I have no doubt that if the US soldiers just started executing everyone who caused trouble right then and there (Taliban style), those countries would be subjugated very quickly. "
The reason swat teams take few casualties is because they are fighting poorly trained poorly armed criminals, and they start the fights most of the time, and have the element of surprise. However, I think that, frankly having a lot of gun owners can never be a good thing for a military coup. There's just no profit to be found in killing large amounts of your own population.
 Anyway, imo there's very little disadvantage to a well-regulated and well designed  system of gun regulations and laws. It's just that as is, too much time is spent banning the wrong weapons and giving in to media spawned crap.
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VergilMayCry

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#194  Edited By VergilMayCry
@iFail said:
" @lazyturtle said:
" @iFail: Lets imagine for a moment that the military decides to stage a coup. They're not trying to win hearts and minds (as the US military says it is trying to do), they're only interested in dominating the population. Sure, some of them might die, but large groups of citizens can easily be subjugated by a few well armed, well trained men. I mean you don't hear about people on SWAT teams getting killed very often do you? They're confronting people who are armed and ready to fight. So you might "make it hard on them" for a few minutes..right before their superior organization, training and equipment allow them to kill you. I mean don't forget about things like predator drones, helicopters, tanks and APCs. I have no doubt that if the US soldiers just started executing everyone who caused trouble right then and there (Taliban style), those countries would be subjugated very quickly. "
The reason swat teams take few casualties is because they are fighting poorly trained poorly armed criminals, and they start the fights most of the time, and have the element of surprise. However, I think that, frankly having a lot of gun owners can never be a good thing for a military coup. There's just no profit to be found in killing large amounts of your own population.
 Anyway, imo there's very little disadvantage to a well-regulated and well designed  system of gun regulations and laws. It's just that as is, too much time is spent banning the wrong weapons and giving in to media spawned crap. "
Wall of text and theoretical model incoming!
 
The problem is regulating and designing such a system. For every level-headed and responsible gun holder, there are 10 idiots who'd whip out their firearms at the slightest provocation, such as during a minor argument, and thus create a life-threatening situation. Look at it this in terms of the judicial system. Here in Canada, a person is legally able to use lethal force to take down his assailant of he can prove that he appeared to be in a life-threatening situation. If guns are flashed all of the time (and legalizing them would greatly increase these occurrences, statistically), life-threatening situations become far more common and the courts are faced to do one of two things. They can either consider having a gun flashed/pointed at you to not be life-threatening (which makes absolutely no sense), or consider this to be threatening, allowing the "victims" to brutally assault the gun holders, who may retaliate with shooting, cause serious panic and possible rioting in the streets. The only theoretical model in which all civilians are given free reign to guns would be something similar to the setup of MGS4, where each gun is linked to an individual (cannot be fired by anybody else), and is constantly monitored by a governing body. If you keep getting into gunfights, your reputation will prove you to be less trustworthy as a witness/plaintiff/defendant.
 
tl;dr:  more guns = more idiots with guns = more instability/violence
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deactivated-5c86670f38adc

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@wjkelso said:
" @GIVEMEREPLAY:   I completely disagree, just compare firearm related deaths for countries where guns are legal or illegal.  Re. 1. Carrying a gun to defend yourself against someone else carrying a gun will only escalate any situation you get into. Re. 2. That's life  Re. 3. Knives are for kitchens. "
The thing is that if you escalate the situation by drawing your gun, you aren't screwing around anymore and if you know what you are doing, you will be finishing off the situation promptly.  Most often training is to not bring the firearm into play until things get life threatening.
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deactivated-5c86670f38adc

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@VergilMayCry:  I'd say you're very right about that, and what I think we need is a psychological test similar to what police academies use. If a person tends to overreact or just be blood thirsty in general, then their records should reflect it and it should be brought to the gun dealer's attention.
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jim_dandy

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deactivated-5c86670f38adc

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@jim_dandy: Is that supposed to be a link?
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VergilMayCry

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#199  Edited By VergilMayCry
@iFail: The problem with screening people based on their anger issues (and thus possibly not giving them guns) is that the media would turn it into a human rights issue. If every warm-blooded American is allowed to carry his 12-gauge while driving to work, why can't Billy Shoot-on-sight do the same? Is the government discriminating against people with aggressive tendencies? Perhaps aggressive tendencies will be classified as a new "illness" or "addiction" and would be unable to discriminate against in the same way that employers can't avoid hiring the [minorly] mentally handicapped.
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#200  Edited By GunnBjorn

If everybody had the right to have a fire arm on them, we've got a potential bloodbath on our hands. 
Absolutely no! 
(yes, it has been said in a more eloquent, articulated and substantiated way; I merely agree with the comments above.)