Game of Thrones Season 4 - The Thread

These are all characteristics of Joffrey that drive the numerous plots substantially. Everyone surrounding him apart from Cersei feels that same frustration with him. I'd agree with you if him being that way was not addressed once, but literally everything revolves around his personality and his actions.

Imagine what wouldn't have happened had he not been that character. Literally everything apart from the encroaching winter, as far as I can tell. It's absurd to suggest he doesn't contribute and is purely 'annoying'. He is who he is and turned the island(?) to war because of it.

That was my thought too for who actually should have control of the throne now, but since no one's really following the rules anyways, it could go pretty much any way. Technically Ned was supposed to be the ruler of the realm until Joffery came of age, but that reality was lopped off real quick.

Tommen is next in line, but Cersei is still going to be queen regent most likely. She never had much success in making Joffery listen to her, but she'll probably have more luck with Tommen most likely. Then again, maybe dragons and ice zombies show up and everyone dies, so who knows.

Now that he's dead, I hope all parties clammering for the throne are like, "Okay, let's fucking take the throne," and shit goes doooooown.

Honestly after the amount of death and deceit surrounding royalty over the last couple of years in the show, you'd think the people vying for the throne would be like "Nah i'm good, i'd rather be a rich dude sitting in a normal chair than a rich dead dude sitting on a fancy one."

Always been afraid to click on this thread. How's the spoiler manners (beyond the current episode that is)?

Anyways, Joffrey didn't suffer enough. And Cersei can actually feel something? Hands down the most interesting character in the show right now, for me. Hate her, love her, understand her, disbelieve her. Yup, she's a weird one.

By the time the war is over there isn't much to be a ruler off I think, most of the kingdom is both dead and destroyed. You spend your royal days picking up the pieces.

It makes sense that it's anyone but Cersei. And Joffrey's her own son and all, but she had a shit-eating grin the whole wedding. She likes power. She likes control. If she can no longer control something, she doesn't want it anymore.

If it was Cersei, in a single swoop, she's become the acting queen. She's gotten rid of the son with whom she's lost control. She's gotten rid of the one man that's been a thorn in her side her whole life. She's proven to her father that she can play the game just as well as anyone else. She's denied another house from any claim to the throne. She'll be putting a man in power that she can hopefully control. And she cock blocked Pycell.

A lot of theories, I'm gonna wait for events to unfold and not think about it. All that matters is that he's gone.

The thing about Cersei is that she's terrible at the game of thrones, but she thinks she's just as good as Tywin. Both Tywin and Tyrion have had lines in the show telling her straight to her face that she is not as clever as she thinks she is. All her power comes from her sons and her family (more specifically her daddy's army) and yet her sons' royal lineage is one big lie and she is shit at raising all of her kids. The worst part is that she makes enemies out of everyone including her own brothers and Pycell (who says repeatedly that all he's ever done as Grand Maester is help the Lannisters).

(ALL BOOK SPOILERS):

New dude looks nothing like Jon Snow. More like a less handsome Hugh Jackman.

Thoughts on episode 3?

I'm really glad they just went ahead and basically gave away the whodunnit to the audience right away, but I hope the Tyrion aspect gets cleared up sooner rather than later. If we have another huge chunk of the show where Tyrion is powerless and hated by everyone, it's gonna be a real bummer.

Also, is anyone else getting really tired of the complete disconnect between the Westeros stories and the Daenerys storyline? It seems to be a lesser problem with the Wildlings and the Wall, but that at least seems to be more of an immediate problem whereas all the business in the East seems sort of aimless beyond a vague threat that they'll eventually get their damn boats and cross the sea. I really like all the characters in the Eastern storyline and the actual events are fun to watch, but having a single scene every other episode with no correlation to the "main" plot other than the once-a-season mention by someone in King's Landing is really getting on my nerves.

Yup, I've said it before and I'll say it again, the whole Dany story is a complete waste of time. She will never cross the sea, so let's just get on with it and stop stalling the plot by filling up the episodes with this stuff. At this point she's even pretty much become a one-note character as well. In general I'm already reminded of how cluttered the mid-season was last season, and it's not looking like things are gonna get any better.

@waffles13: I don't mind the disconnect. There's always been the Westeros story, and then the story of Daenerys' transformation and rise. I think the references people in King's Landing make every once in a while is to remind people that eventually the two will intertwine more greatly, but for now it's still her coming into her own.

They said the trial would be in a fortnight, so next week we'll hopefully see what becomes of Tyrion. This season more than the others, I'm finding myself less satisfied with the episodes. I mean I'm thoroughly enjoying them, but they all felt like they ended too soon. Despite that, the story's definitely moving.

I also really like the idea of Tywin teaching Tommen to be a good king. Tywin's calculating and ruthless, but Jaime seems to have rejected his lessons, Tyrion and him dislike each other, he won't even bother trying to teach Cersei, and Joffrey was just a little prick. After all that, he seems genuinely exuberant at the prospect of maybe getting it right this time. The obvious difference with Tommen is that he'd be easier to manipulate, but I get the sense that Tywin's not necessarily interested in ruling by proxy of his grandson.

He's a man who cares most of all about his house, his legacy, with his mortality in sight. I think he's genuinely trying to teach Tommen, not just bend him to his will. Maybe there's no difference in the end. Whether Tommen takes every lesson to heart or grows to stand on his own would be interesting to see.

Two references to Braavos this episode. Well I guess one was more than just a reference. Would be cool to see it!

The problem is that I really like that storyline. I don't know if it would be sustainable if they tried to do an entire episode or two on it, but I like every one of the main characters in that story and think it's fun to watch. That said, the entire show is about the events of Westeros first and foremost, and the lack of connectivity is really annoying.

Also, when you say "she will never cross the sea", is that speculation? My understanding from reading a couple brief summaries of the books is that she's down but not out at the moment. Maybe it's just the overly excited teenage boy that lives somewhere inside me, but I just always assumed it would wind up being dragons vs. White Walkers at some point, what with the whole bit where Sam kills one with Dragonglass. Probably would be too stupid and action-y for this series, but I can dream, right?

@theht: I don't agree really. He's more bending the boy to his will than anything else. That was a crazy good episode.

I like this show.

I can't wait to see more of this season's episodes. The first three have been really great.

@waffles13: I haven't read the books, so I might be completely wrong (and also, I wouldn't be surprised if R.R.Martin decides to do it, because that's what he does right?). But I just don't see anything interesting coming out of Daenerys crossing the sea. Either she takes the throne and it's basically "game over" (which could work as a finale to the series I guess), or she loses in battle and gets executed. There is just no middle-ground there. It's just her all alone, and anyone and everyone with any real power in Westeros would take her head if they had the chance. Also, we're reaching a point where the pay-off just won't be worth it, especially if she ends up dead.

Now I'm not saying there's nothing to enjoy about her story, but that's basically what she's been turned into. Everytime it switches to her I just go "ok, time for something cool that is of complete irrelevance". But there's only so many times you can watch the same "Haha, you're a joke, I have no respect for you" "I'm Daenerys Stormborn, bitch, now die" scene.

I know it makes me a monster but I couldn't help but laugh at:

"NO ONE BOILS A POTATO BETTER THEN YE MUM"
THROAT ARROW

@dudeglove: They should just start addressing each other in the show this way. It'd be way easier to follow. And I like the concept of a character known exclusively as Incest Knight.

So who helped little finger then? Was it the old woman? besides that fool, someone else had to be helping. Someone at that table.

In the context that you just put it in, I couldn't help but laugh too. Maybe we're both monsters.

And just when I was starting to root for Jaime Lannister, he goes and destroys all the goodwill he'd built up for himself.

I heard that particular scene went down a lot differently in the books, so...what the fuck, show-runners.

@ares42: I get the sense that the initial, perceived conflict of Dani vs. the kings of Westeros will take a backseat to the ultimate Dani + Dragons vs. White Walkers and shit.

I mean, the guy has two more books to write. I don't know what happens in the fourth or fifth books. But if she's taken this long to build an army and rally support, you're right: having her face off against the kings to get her revenge would seem a bit anticlimactic no matter how it ends. The real end, I think, has her making her way back West just in time to have her dragons kill all the white walkers.

But then again, maybe everyone dies.

I chiefly disagree with the way Jamie was this badass up till now and all of a sudden he's that lame uncle that tries to be hip with the young kids even though his prime has clearly passed. I hope they build him back up.

I don't understand whatsoever they were thinking in changing that scene so drastically from the books. Are things going to be different? Sure, thats expected and thats not what the issue is. Its just why this scene? It made no sense for Jaimes general character progression at this point in time.

Just kinda confused what the writers were thinking here. Unless they go super off the rails in a different direction for him(which they've never done anything close to that and don't appear to be wanting to) it makes no real sense to change the scene into that. It just kinda screams "HEY GUYS LOOK, WE'RE HBO SO WE NEED TO DO THIS IN EVERY SHOW YOU KNOW, CUZ EDGY."

Uhh, you should watch the latest episode that aired yesterday...

While I don't think I said anything too revealing, I foolishly hadn't considered that people may not be up-to-date with the latest episode, so I should have spoiler-tagged my last post. But when I say Jaime destroys the goodwill he'd built up, I was not exaggerating. Actually, it's a major understatement.

Just started the episode, did LittleFinger change his voice? He sounds very different to me and comical more than serious or intimidating.

@nightriff: I didn't notice any change in his demeanor or voice. Maybe it's just that he hasn't made an appearance in so long.

When Dany showed up in the latest episode I found myself shouting "Are you gonna be heading to Westeros forever? Take a fucking taxi, PLEASE, I'll pay the fare, just take a taxi already."

All she wants to do is keep visiting big exotic ass cities and liberating their slaves. You have proven yourself as the Abraham Lincoln of the story, baby, please move along to something worth watching.

The way you refer to the characters gives me hope for entertainment fans everywhere. Too many clever dicks name each and every character of a show/game by their full name, I can't keep up with that shit.

I endorse "sex-mad arab dude."

I'm sorry, did you just spoil the story? Fuck this kind of post. Use spoiler tags mother**************

yeah that scene was still fucked in the books but not as disgustingly fucked as that. don't do that to jaime please.

@mikeeegeee: well, if that happens, it's pretty much the same scenario of "Dany takes the throne with no opposition". Ofc it would be an epic big ending etc etc, but so not worth dragging this deadbeat storyline all that way. I guess I can see some sense in not just making it a big Deus Ex Machina thing, but still... in the end I can't come up with any other reason than that it's just poorly written. It's like he had this great idea for the big "there are still dragons" reveal and then the "dragons saves the day" ending, but no idea what to write in the middle to actually make a story out of it.

"Sex-mad Arab" is a stereotype? Not heard that one before.

@singingmenstrual said:

Well said, if they literally wrote her side of the story out I wouldn't miss a thing, it just seems like they are prolonging her events just to prolong them, maybe thats how the books are but it isn't good television to watch this one story continue to move foreword 7 minutes at a time.

Jaime/Cersei scene was quite odd..not sure where they're going with Jaime after making him BFFs with Brienne and whitewashing his murder of Aerys. The show does not trust people to understand gray characters, IMO. Even Tyrion's becoming too good-hearted for his (or the viewer's) own good.

@sanj: I saw it, and as terrible as it may be in light of normal society, in Game of Thrones world it honestly felt par for the course. I just want to make clear that I don't advocate that act in any normal setting, but in this fictional TV show about terrible people - Cersei seriously deserved something horrible to happen to her.

Yup, I agree. Watching Daenerys' story in the show always makes me feel like the impatient little kid in the backseat of a car wailing ''are we there yet??'' over and over again. I feel a little bad because it features a bevy of likeable characters and is just as well directed as the rest of it, but could we please just get a move on.

@dudeglove: Fair enough, I just tend to avoid all image macros outright.

I'm pretty sure that's just speculation. I've only seen the show and nothing else, and I came to the exact same conclusion. I mean, the show has been very explicit about the discovery of "Dragonglass" in at least three episodes that I can remember, and how it's the only real way to kill White Walkers. Logic would dictate that if glass made from dragon fire kills them, then dragon fire itself would too, right?

On one hand, I would be super stoked if that's how it all comes together, but on the other it feels a bit too much like an Avengers-style, fan service-y team up story if everyone fights with the dragons to defeat the greater foe. I get the impression that some of the more hardcore fans might not like that change of tone.

With the way they portrayed Jaime last night, I fear for what they plan to do with Tyrion. It seems like the show doesn't think audiences can deal with gray characters, like there has to be clear cut good guys and bad guys. So when Tyrion strangles Shae and shoots Tywin, they'll either completely change what happened, or force people to turn on him.

Yeah... I really don't see this story ending with Dany "saving the world" from the white walkers. Seems way too obvious.

Something else came to mind though, when I went back to look at Bran's vision from last week (it's endgame speculation so not really a spoiler but I'll hide it anyway) When they show the throne room covered in snow, at first I thought it just meant the white walkers are coming or whatever, but... could it be a metaphor for Jon Snow ending up on the throne? It's a little on the nose but I kinda hope I'm right. I love that guy.

I think that the show failed to get across Jaime's perspective on that. The whole incident was triggered when Cersei asks Jaime to kill his brother Tyrion. I imagine this immediately draws Jaime back into the past when King Aerys II ordered him to remove Tywin's, Jaime's father's, head. The Kingslayer seems to have issues when his allegiances are split and stressed. I think the scene feels like, "why the fuck is this happening?" because the episode doesn't clearly show that Cersei knows that this situation is similar to the one Jaime found himself in 17 years prior. She knows how asking him to kill Tyrion is going to make him feel. I think this is the primary reason he refers to her as a "hateful woman", with her disdain for her own brother, Tyrion, and her withholding of affection with Jaime being secondary reasons.

I also don't think this scene is as different from the books as people are saying. There's no doubt that Cersei is saying "no" and "it's not right" and such, but she is also kissing him at the same time. It seems like people are trying to apply a modern sense of morality to a foreign context and not acknowledging the murkiness of this situation.

@slashdance:

In the books he first arrived after (S4E2) Joffrey was already dead. Cersei was in the middle of thinking how she lost two of the people she loved most (Jaime and Joffrey), and then Jaime showed up as she stood over (S4E3) her dead son's corpse in the Sept. She was overwhelmed by emotion and lust - it made sense in the book.

In the show however, Jaime had been there for a while before this all happened. Cersei had grown emotionally distant from him, and Jaime had been lustful for a while. Cersei probably also blamed him for failing to (S4E2) protect the King.

@spoonman671: aayup. Pretty much.

"Go MURDER your brother!"

Nah, got a better idea sis...

It's also important to consider that this is not the first time Cersei has goaded Jaime into killing somebody who he did not really want to kill, as was the case when Bran Stark found them having sex in the tower and Jaime pushed him out the window. Those siblings who fuck each other sure have a screwed up relationship.