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#1 Posted by meteora3255 (465 posts) -

Ugh. I have only gotten a few episodes in but it just doesn't seem like this is going to be any good. I saw a few reviews and told myself it couldn't be that bad. The writing so far is lackluster. I still have no idea exactly what the villains want and why Danny Rand is problematic. The action seems slow, especially compared to something like Daredevil (or even Arrow). For a guy that is supposed to be one of the world's greatest martial artists he doesn't fight like it. And of course this isn't even touching the racial issues and white savior tropes that have surrounded the show (and are very present in the series). It's a misfire from Marvel and Netflix and mutes some of my Defenders excitement. That said, the season is still young and it could turn things around.

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#2 Edited by OurSin_360 (4458 posts) -

I guess they can't all be winners... I saw the previews for this and it just rubbed me the wrong way from the start, the actor they got just doesn't look likeable in the slightest. Unless the character is supposed to be giant d-bag? (i don't know much about him) but that is the main vibe i got from the trailer lol. I will give it a shot though as i have liked all the Marvel shows so far, but hearing bad reviews makes it seem like my initial feelings are right about it.

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#3 Edited by dr_monocle (345 posts) -

Yeah I feel pretty much the same about 3 episodes in. The exposition is so clunky—"I'm Danny Rand, born April 1st right here in New York." I'm paraphrasing (in that I'm maybe a word or two off, but he actually says that) but I really wish this had been better. I don't find the fighting extremely terrible, but Daredevil's fight choreography is better and like you said this particular show needs to nail it. Also a lot of the acting feels wooden or boilerplate especially from the villains.

There are things I like about it, and I definitely will see it through because I am still excited for The Defenders. Hopefully this is just a minor misstep.

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#4 Posted by meteora3255 (465 posts) -

@oursin_360: I don't know much about him either (beyond the fact that he used to team up with Luke Cage in the comics) but he definitely comes off as a d-bag in the few episodes of the show I have seen.

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#5 Posted by Mike (17288 posts) -

Moved to Off Topic, General is for stuff about games and the site. Thanks.

Moderator
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#6 Posted by Undeadpool (5898 posts) -

The trailer looked like something that would've blown the socks off of audiences 10 years ago (just after Batman Begins and before Arrow), and front what I'm hearing there's more corporate boardroom talk than kung-fu action...

The lead actor is also running out feet to put in his mouth, first declaring the series is "for the fans" (like ANY franchise that gets awful reviews) and that Donald Trump's presidency is inspiring ire for Danny Rand as a billionaire (odd that Tony Stark still seems to be widely beloved).

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#7 Posted by pompouspizza (1225 posts) -

I don't have much interest in it to be honest. I couldn't even make it all the way through Luke Cage and I REALLY wanted to like it.

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#8 Posted by FrostyRyan (1990 posts) -

Love Daredevil, Jessica Jones, and Luke Cage.

Bummer this is reviewing poorly. I don't know if I want to start watching or not...

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#9 Posted by AlKusanagi (1431 posts) -

I just finished it and I really liked it. I don't get all the hate it's been getting online. Luke Cage and Jessica Jones both dragged on, but I felt this one at least had something going on for the whole run.

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#10 Posted by meteora3255 (465 posts) -

@alkusanagi: I have gotten deeper in and it started to pick up. I really felt the first 3.5 episodes had very little going on but it has started to pick up. I still am not impressed by the fight sequences but the characters have grown on me and the writing feels better. Finn Jones has certainly become a more likable protagonist after I was decidedly against him to start the series.

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#11 Posted by alwaysbebombing (2397 posts) -

Powered through all of it. Really had a great time. I am beyond excited for The Punisher.

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#12 Edited by WynnDuffy (1015 posts) -
@meteora3255 said:

And of course this isn't even touching the racial issues and white savior tropes that have surrounded the show (and are very present in the series).

These aren't issues though, we just had Luke Cage last year but now a lot of people say it's bad because Iron Fist is a white guy (critics show their lack of intelligence in not knowing Iron Fist was always a white guy)

The issue I do have with the show are the so-so fight scenes and coming right off of the heels of John Wick 2 it's even more obvious

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#13 Posted by meteora3255 (465 posts) -

@wynnduffy: Just because Iron Fist was always a privileged white guy doesn't mean it isn't an issue. The source material is dated and Danny Rand is very much a "white savior" type of character. Marvel has re-imagined plenty of characters from Ghost Rider to Captain America to Captain Marvel over the years. Even if they decided to keep the character the same they could have at least touched on some of the cultural appropriation that is happening. To me the defense that "Iron Fist has always been a white guy" isn't enough to justify not even facing the issues (at least from the episodes I have seen) in the show.

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#14 Posted by OurSin_360 (4458 posts) -

@meteora3255 said:

And of course this isn't even touching the racial issues and white savior tropes that have surrounded the show (and are very present in the series).

These aren't issues though, we just had Luke Cage last year but now a lot of people say it's bad because Iron Fist is a white guy (critics show their lack of intelligence in not knowing Iron Fist was always a white guy)

The issue I do have with the show are the so-so fight scenes and coming right off of the heels of John Wick 2 it's even more obvious

What does luke cage have to do with it?

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#15 Edited by WynnDuffy (1015 posts) -
@oursin_360 said:
@wynnduffy said:
@meteora3255 said:

And of course this isn't even touching the racial issues and white savior tropes that have surrounded the show (and are very present in the series).

These aren't issues though, we just had Luke Cage last year but now a lot of people say it's bad because Iron Fist is a white guy (critics show their lack of intelligence in not knowing Iron Fist was always a white guy)

The issue I do have with the show are the so-so fight scenes and coming right off of the heels of John Wick 2 it's even more obvious

What does luke cage have to do with it?

A lot of the complaints I saw when Iron Fist was revealed are that it's a white actor playing a white character and then there was the typical (in this case entirely incorrect) whitewashing claims. My point is we just had Luke Cage right before Iron Fist, a black superhero played by a black actor.

@meteora3255 said:

@wynnduffy: Just because Iron Fist was always a privileged white guy doesn't mean it isn't an issue.

Nah not touching this one...

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#16 Posted by OurSin_360 (4458 posts) -

@wynnduffy: Complaints i see are about another white character appropriating asian culture , and a lack of asian lead characters in any marvel franchises. Which luke cage being a black superhero has nothing to do with? Starting a movie franchise with a relatively unknown character seems like a good opportunity to tweak the character a bit, from what i read on him all he needed to be is rich and american. Also doesn't help the main character just looks like a douche, and judging by the tweets might be one irl.

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#17 Edited by WynnDuffy (1015 posts) -

@oursin_360 said:

@wynnduffy: Complaints i see are about another white character appropriating asian culture , and a lack of asian lead characters in any marvel franchises. Which luke cage being a black superhero has nothing to do with? Starting a movie franchise with a relatively unknown character seems like a good opportunity to tweak the character a bit, from what i read on him all he needed to be is rich and american. Also doesn't help the main character just looks like a douche, and judging by the tweets might be one irl.

Which is funny because the only people who get upset about 'appropriating culture' are white people on Twitter most of the time. I remember uproar about white people wearingkimono in Japan, but if those critics had ever actually been to Japan they would know that Japanese people are very welcoming and sharing of their culture. The video I attached was made around the time there was some bizarre pushback about whites wearing kimono.

I bring up Luke Cage because I saw people complaining about Marvel having too many white people as leads, when we've had Luke Cage less than a year ago I think it's a little odd to immediately start with that complaint again.

You will face no resistance from me about Finn Jones. I didn't like him in GoT either.

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#18 Posted by meteora3255 (465 posts) -

@wynnduffy: It's fine if you don't think there is a problem with it. All I am saying is that Marvel and Netflix had the opportunity to address some heavier issues (which shows like Jessica Jones and Luke Cage have done) than just being a superhero show with some corporate intrigue. The complaint isn't about too many white people as leads, its about glossing over the fact that the character was created to capitalize on Asian culture (the 70s martial arts craze) but made palatable to American audiences by making him a rich white guy. If it's important to keep Danny Rand white (even though Ghost Rider is now Hispanic, Captain Marvel is a woman and Captain America was up until recently black) then at least try to frame it in such a way that it doesn't come off as the white guy being the only person who can do this centuries old monastic order's job.

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#19 Posted by devise22 (451 posts) -

Just made it through 8 episodes and I was hooked from the get go. The espionage style intrigue, the very grounded fight scenes with traditional martial arts throwbacks. It still has very much the same camera angles and overall feel as the rest of the Netflix Marvel shows as well. I've also been very surprised how much it instantly circumvented some of the traditional villain tropes that I thought it was going to be more of. Especially with the Meechum family, the more and more they peel back of them as just side characters the more you realize there is actually something worth watching here. I don't know how this show is rated so lowly honestly. I get that it may not be what people were looking for but you go in seeing that low of ratings expecting something that is actually awful. Horrible writing. Sure this is cliched, very plot driven stuff for the most part, but to say there is no finesse no character development? Come on. Your joking with yourself or you literally missed entire scenes. And I have yet to see a full scene where I thought the acting was awful.

Going to the "whitewashing" stuff that is the biggest joke I've ever seen. I get the push to see more than just the "rich white guy" but Danny Rand in the comics is a rich white guy. Yes, your right, they could of decided to do something different but not doing so isn't somehow offensive. I don't want to make this political but can't people not see that it's their incessant desire to have that very liberal very equality based mindset not just represented but pushed into every facet of everything that makes the resistance you see from the alt right even start in the first place? Sure, we all agree that a story about an Asian with mystical Iron Fist powers that can stop The Hand would be just as cool as a story about a white rich guy who does the same thing. That doesn't mean the story about the white rich guy is white washing, offensive, or anything else. Your literally grasping at straws because your obsessed with throwing your political perspectives onto anything and everything with even the slightest hint of a connection.

All in all I encourage people to check this show out for yourselves. The audience reception is much better than the critic reception and I will say from what I've seen while certainly not the best Netflix Marvel outing (which still remains Jessica Jones) this may actually be number two for me. But I really dig the old school martial arts stuff that they are doing, and I find the pacing to be excellent for selling not just Rand but all these side characters. If you enjoyed Daredevil, JJ, and Cage I'd say you'll probably enjoy this as well.

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#20 Edited by BabyChooChoo (6558 posts) -

I'm on episode 7 and I wish I loved it. So far, the best way I can describe it is awkward, especially the fighting. My biggest problem by far though is that in this universe, they build up Iron Fist to be this legendary warrior, but he's constantly getting his ass handed to him. Sure, he wins, but it's usually a struggle. I want to see him just fuck up a room full of dudes like it's nothing...because he's the goddamned Iron Fist. Not take on one lone no-name jobber and just sorta kinda beat him.

But I digress. Like I said, everything about it just feels awkward. In my opinion, the best part of this series so far has been Ward, the brother, by a mile. I think that actor has been stealing almost every scene he's in. Rosario Dawson is, of course, fantastic as always, but there hasn't been a ton of her. Oh, and Wai Ching Ho too. Everyone else is just sorta okay at best.

The plot hasn't grabbed me at all. I get what's going on, but I just don't care.

I loved Daredevil and Jessica Jones. I had some problems with Luke Cage, but ultimately found it enjoyable. This, so far, has been the weakest of the bunch. Again, I want to love it, but it's not making it easy.

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#21 Posted by familyphotoshoot (710 posts) -

@meteora3255: The fact that Danny Rand is a rich, white guy and Luke Cage is a poor/ lower middle-class black guy and the dynamic between them on the team is something that's been explored in the Defenders comics quite a few times. I hope this is something they address in the show and changing Danny's ethnicity wouldn't give them an opportunity to do so.

If that's something they don't choose to explore in the show version, then I'm more inclined to agree with the people who campaigned for an Asian Danny.

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#22 Posted by Sarnecki (1187 posts) -

You've got to keep in mind when characters who appropriate Asian mythologies like Tony Stark or Stephen Strange or Danny Rand, the reason the characters were white was because the vast majority of the audience in the 60's was little white kids. Now we live in a different world. I'm almost always against the idea of changing a characters race unless it's for a good reason, and in this specific context I think it might be one of the only times I wouldn't mind making Danny Asian. That context being there are LITERALLY no Asian superheroes running around. Where's my Asian blade? Where's the badass Bruce Lee who little Asian kids can look up to as a total martial arts badass? You've got a guy who's full on totally and completely about Asian mysticism, this would be a great time for a "connecting with my roots" story about an Asian millennial.

It's not like "calm down, there's an Asian hero coming!" Cause there isn't. Doctor Strange I didn't mind. The mysticism there is characterized as a much more global thing. This is different.

GIVE ME MARVELS BRUCE LEE!

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#23 Posted by IzzyGraze (912 posts) -

I'm on episode 8 and starting to get disappointed. The main character kind of sucks but I was enjoying the other characters. Now I'm on episode 8 and they tried to get "deep" and....yeah no. It was very badly written. The writer doesn't seem to have much life experience and it showed. Also, they really threw in a love story from nowhere. First they're just friends then next scene they're suddenly attracted to eachother. I think something must have been cut out because it made no sense.

However, I do like the Ward character. He has a nice arc to him so far.

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#24 Posted by Rigas (428 posts) -

@sarnecki said:

GIVE ME MARVELS BRUCE LEE!

His name is Shang Chi, The Master of Kung Fu. I would love nothing more for him to show up or get his own series.

Yes the MCU might be a little light on representation, but they also have a limited amount of things they put out, if you change too many things when does it stop being Iron Fist and we complain that it's that in name only? The books have been going for decades and dozens of new issues every month so they can expand the cast more than the MCU can.

Agents of Shield has several prominent asian characters as did Doctor Strange.

In the books right now, and for a long time actually the current Hulk is Amadeus Cho, an Asian American character and totally awesome. Now that's the direction I want to see future Hulk movies go in. Mark Buffalo passing the mantle to a new kid.

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#25 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (3011 posts) -

8 episodes in and it's been pretty great so far. It's not as good as DD season 1, it might be as good as Jessica Jones (it dragged in the middle) and it's definitely better than Luke Cage.

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#26 Posted by SquirrelGOD (566 posts) -

Show's pretty good! I'd put it above Jessica Jones, way below Daredevil, and a bit below Luke Cage as of right now. The guy playing Danny isn't great, though. I really wish they had gone with someone else. Don't give a damn about the character's race for this show (though, I think some people are putting WAY too much thought into that stupidity), I just wish they had hired someone who was a Martial Artist first and foremost. I could totally tolerate some sub-par acting if the action scenes were mindblowing, but as it is, Danny's acting is "Meh." and the action scenes are passable. Also, Joy might very well be the single worst, most confusing character I've seen in these shows thus far, but maybe she turns it around and becomes interesting eventually.

All-in-all, I'm digging it, and it's a stepping stone to the true prize: Heroes for Hire!

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#27 Posted by OurSin_360 (4458 posts) -

@squirrelgod: So could daredevil beat his ass? I really like the fighting in that series.

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#28 Posted by SquirrelGOD (566 posts) -

@oursin_360: So far, there really hasn't been anything even remotely comparable to, say, the hallway fight from Daredevil. The actor playing Matt Murdock is a MUCH more passable martial artist than the guy playing Danny Rand. Now, to be fair, Daredevil, from episode one, has a suit, so obviously they can bring in a stunt guy to handle a bunch of the fight scenes if need be. The fight scenes in this show seem to have a lot of quick cuts that make the fights seem a bit disjointed, and I'm guessing it's to hide the stunt doubles a bit more. But this guy, I'm just not feeling him like the other leads on the other shows. While I didn't like Jessica Jones all that much, the lady playing Jessica was great. Daredevil? Great. Luke Cage? Great. This guy? Ehhh, not the worst thing in the world, but I think he's just a bit miscast.

Also, the other thing that bums me out is that this show feels like it's trying to feel too much like Daredevil, but without the super interesting characters. I mean, Luke Cage had this awesome thing going for it where it felt like there were some blaxploitation vibes that gave the whole show this awesome filter. I was kind of hoping that maybe Iron Fist would have some sort of old-school 70's kung-fu sprinkled into the recipe to mirror that, which would make the inevitable "Heroes for Hire" show (it'll happen if I believe enough) a super interesting mix of both. But, oh well. The show is still very much entertaining.

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#29 Edited by OurSin_360 (4458 posts) -

@squirrelgod: hmm yeah the actor kinda rubbed me the wrong way from the trailer. I am still willing to give it a chance though. They probably arw trying ti avoid any racial kung fu tropes since it seems like a mostly white cast. Luke cage works because they explore it intelligently and have commentary about it, its not just blacksploitation.

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#30 Edited by Deathstriker (502 posts) -

Daredevil > Jessica Jones > Iron Fist > Luke Cage

That could change since I haven't finished Iron Fist yet, but it I don't get the hate. I wanted to love Luke Cage and it has its moments, but Diamondback is the lamest villain in the entire MCU and his motivation was laughable - Cottonmouth should've been in the show more. Plus, "should I run or not" and people giving Luke pep talks stuck around for too long. I liked Luke Cage, but it definitely had some problems.

The fight scenes here are WAY better than the few in Luke Cage. I like Danny, though him being so naive can be annoying at times. His fighting style is cool, since DD is a brawler, Luke is a tank, and Jessica is really more of a PI than anything else. Danny is very graceful and smooth in his fights. Daredevil is a head of the pack, but the other three shows are more or less even, since they're enjoyable with some obvious flaws. Danny is a good edition to the Defender team, while he does have some PTSD (or something close to it at times) he is very cheerful and optimistic - the other 3 members are definitely not, so he adds a different dimension to the team. The show could be better - it would've been nice if it had a 70's vibe like Luke Cage did, but instead it's the most modern feeling show out of the four.

A lot of people were saying the main actor was being too defensive in some of his interview comments, but I do think some people came into this way too PC since "cultural appropriation" often pops up when talking about this show - in forums and reviews. The character is white in the comics, so far it doesn't feel like "the great white hope" like Avatar or certain Native American movies. If his family has been rich in New York for generations (pretty much like the Waynes) then him being Asian doesn't really fit that. I'm black, and I'd say the same thing about black people. There might be an exception here and there, but for the most part if you're extremely rich in a generational way in America odds are you're going to be white, since other races being allowed to succeed on that level has really only been around for decades. Him being Asian would change the story there and it could possibly change the dynamic of him and his partner Luke Cage if/when they get a show together.

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#31 Posted by Deathstriker (502 posts) -

I'm on episode 7 and I wish I loved it. So far, the best way I can describe it is awkward, especially the fighting. My biggest problem by far though is that in this universe, they build up Iron Fist to be this legendary warrior, but he's constantly getting his ass handed to him. Sure, he wins, but it's usually a struggle. I want to see him just fuck up a room full of dudes like it's nothing...because he's the goddamned Iron Fist. Not take on one lone no-name jobber and just sorta kinda beat him.

I'm not sure how you can say that when episode 6 (with the twins) is the first time he has had trouble with someone in a fight. He has had some drawn out fights, but I think that's more because he's a counter striker rather than knocking people out or breaking their limbs like Daredevil. From what I've seen, he could probably beat Matt in a fight without using his power, but he'd definitely win with it. Episode 6 is the first time someone lands a meaningful blow on him (not counting episode 2 where he's drugged and in a straitjacket).

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#32 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (3011 posts) -

@wynnduffy: Just because Iron Fist was always a privileged white guy doesn't mean it isn't an issue. The source material is dated and Danny Rand is very much a "white savior" type of character. Marvel has re-imagined plenty of characters from Ghost Rider to Captain America to Captain Marvel over the years. Even if they decided to keep the character the same they could have at least touched on some of the cultural appropriation that is happening. To me the defense that "Iron Fist has always been a white guy" isn't enough to justify not even facing the issues (at least from the episodes I have seen) in the show.

He's not a white saviour, he is a deconstruction of a white saviour and he's always been that since he was first created. It was the reason he was created in the first place. Also, it's not appropriation. Danny Rand was born in the US but he was raised in Asia, calling it appropriation is like calling any immigrant who integrates themselves into their adopted homeland an appropriator.

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#33 Posted by achillesforever (41 posts) -

Its a C+ show, I feel like this was the first big miscasting in a Marvel property; I wish Marvel/Disney would get someone who was a martial artist to play the role, now of course the problem with that being he might not be the best actor, but I feel like for a show about a kung fu fighting magic man, acting chops should not be the top priority. The fights are really disappointing because they have to edit in so many cuts in them. Now I know its to save time and money, but hell Disney has all the money in the world, just go balls out and get the Raid guys to make the fight scenes

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And if not that its kind of sad that Agent's of Shield (a show I very much like mind you) has way better fight scenes despite being on network TV. (Also a show to watch if you feel Marvel doesn't represent women and minorities as the leads well). Really hope in the future they do Heroes for Hire instead of Luke Cage and Iron Fist Season 2s and I hope to god they don't use the guy who brought us Lumberjack Dexter as a showrunner. Get DeKnight again and have him go full Spartacus with the Netflixverse.

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#34 Edited by BabyChooChoo (6558 posts) -

@deathstriker: I'm not done, but based on what I've seen so far, season 1 Daredevil would be a close fight, but I still think Daredevil would win. Season 2 Daredevil would body him any day of the week even with his powers. Hell, even Electra, Nobu, and even the Punisher would give him a serious run for his money just based on the way he's been portrayed.

Going back to my original point though, either way, he's been nothing but a disappointing fighter imo. I've seen nothing so far that makes me go "oh yeah, this dude definitely earned the title of Iron Fist!"

Like...go watch Ip Man or something to see what I'm talking about. I think the first fight, maybe first two, is him just obviously fucking with his opponents (who are either shown or talked about as being extremely skilled fighters) because he clearly knows if ee went all out, the fight would be over in seconds. he's not struggling. He's totally in control and he knows it. The audience knows it too. In the fight scene with him against the 10 Japanese, he finally gets serious and, once again, we get a sense of his strength by the way he just fucking destroys all of them. Later on in the movie, when he fights someone many consider to be his equal in the climax, it's thanks to those scenes that we understand how skilled the other fighter is simply by the fact Donnie Yen hasn't whopped in ass in 30 seconds.

With Iron Fist, he's never gotten a chance to "show off" so it just makes him look weak in comparison. I don't know about you, but to me, it looks like if The Hand just sent everyone to invade K'un-Lun, he wouldn't stand a goddamned chance simply due to the fact he's clearly had enough trouble already. Long story short, tt's bad writing.

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#35 Edited by OurSin_360 (4458 posts) -

@deathstriker: i liked diamondback but yeah his motivation made no sense. I didn't really think too much on the fight scenes in luke cage as it was more if a crime drama than anything else, and any fights were street fight brawls.

Cottonmouth was great though

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#36 Posted by FlashFlood_29 (3423 posts) -
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#37 Posted by devise22 (451 posts) -

I feel like there is a lot of projection here honestly. I don't really feel that "this doesn't do x that I wanted it to do" is fair criticism. That isn't to say there hasn't been fair criticism here obviously if the writing or fight scenes aren't grabbing you that is fair enough.

I really do feel though as it relates to fight scenes they are presenting Iron Fist as far more of a pacifist than a agressor. It feels like he's holding back and his big action scene is being slowly built up. Which I honestly really dig. For me these Netflix shows benefit more if they don't just blow their load off the bat.

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#38 Edited by JEC03 (1421 posts) -

I'm only on the second episode and haven't lost interest yet which is a good sign for me I can't say the same for Luke Cage I was bored as hell with it pretty quick.

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#39 Edited by The_Ruiner (1609 posts) -

@jonny_anonymous said:
@meteora3255 said:

@wynnduffy: Just because Iron Fist was always a privileged white guy doesn't mean it isn't an issue. The source material is dated and Danny Rand is very much a "white savior" type of character. Marvel has re-imagined plenty of characters from Ghost Rider to Captain America to Captain Marvel over the years. Even if they decided to keep the character the same they could have at least touched on some of the cultural appropriation that is happening. To me the defense that "Iron Fist has always been a white guy" isn't enough to justify not even facing the issues (at least from the episodes I have seen) in the show.

He's not a white saviour, he is a deconstruction of a white saviour and he's always been that since he was first created. It was the reason he was created in the first place. Also, it's not appropriation. Danny Rand was born in the US but he was raised in Asia, calling it appropriation is like calling any immigrant who integrates themselves into their adopted homeland an appropriator.

No the deconstruction came years later. He was created purely to capitalize on the popularity of Chinese Kung Fu films. Appropriation of Asian culture has always been Iron Fist's super power. He is a textbook example of a white character being inserted into a foreign culture and rising to the top of it and becoming the absolute best of them. Writers have tried to change that in more recent years. But originally he was simply that.

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#40 Posted by meteora3255 (465 posts) -

After watching the rest of the season I feel a bit better about it. I wanted the show to touch on Danny as an outsider, taking the power of the Iron Fist away to the Western world. I wanted them to deal with the fact that a white guy came over, beat the locals at their own trials and then took their sacred power away from them. The arc with Davos handled that pretty well in my opinion.

I think the show would have benefited critically from a quicker pace at the beginning. Critics got 6 episodes and then wrote a review, but 3.5 of those episodes do very little to move along. The writing has gotten a bit better and Finn Jones has grown on me. Overall I think Netflix gambled that people would binge watch and therefore the pacing would be less of an issue. I think if critics got the full season up front the reviews would have been better. Its still last for me of the Defenders series but it isn't bad, just a bit misguided. Also the fight scenes still haven't won me over but an interview with the Telegraph makes it sound like they simply didn't have enough time to rehearse.

“Well, here’s the situation,” he begins, explaining that he only had three weeks to train before filming. “Unfortunately, with the filming schedule, I wasn’t given as much time as I would have liked to continue the training.” Shooting for 12 or 14 hours a day took its toll. “I was learning those fight scenes just 15 minutes before we shot them, because that was the schedule... It would be 2am, 3am, I’d just done a long day of work, and usually the stunt department would come up and say ‘Hey, right, we’ve got this huge 30 person fight and you’ve got to learn it right now.’ So I was learning it on the spot, within 15-20 minutes, and then shooting it. That was the reality for six months.”

If that is the case then I have some hope that it can be fixed going forward. Overall I end the season with a C+/B- and optimistic about The Defenders.

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#41 Posted by SpaceInsomniac (5951 posts) -

@achillesforever: That was the most badass fight scene I've seen in my life.

If you haven't seen them yet, the Raid and The Raid 2 are both really good movies. I'd definitely recommend them.

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#42 Posted by Deathstriker (502 posts) -

@deathstriker: i liked diamondback but yeah his motivation made no sense. I didn't really think too much on the fight scenes in luke cage as it was more if a crime drama than anything else, and any fights were street fight brawls.

Cottonmouth was great though

They were simple street brawls, but the choreography and cinematography still weren't very good. I think critics literally calling this show "awful", while many of the same ones said Luke Cage was good/great is a bit silly to me. I think all three shows (LC, JJ, and IF) are about even. They all have their issues. I do think some (not all) are being too PC and trying to punish the show for supposedly whitewashing. There is legitimate critique out there, but Luke Cage is at 96% on Rotten Tomatoes, Jessica Jones at 93%, and Iron Fist is at 19% there isn't not a big difference in their quality.

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#43 Posted by ozzdog12 (1116 posts) -

I'm looking forward this however not as much as I was for Daredevil. I wasn't really that excited for JJ or Luke Cage and they both turned out fine, although Luke Cage was boring A LOT(and everyone thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread).

I think Iron First may well be the weakest of the 4(and 'Kung Fu is very niche) but I think a lot of the 'criticism' is the fact people cant get over Danny Rand being white ( which he is in the comics btw) and went in with preconceived notions.

Now I haven't watched it yet as I'm still very much spending my limited free time playing Horizon Zero Dawn, but I will watch it within the next week and make my own personal judgement.

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#44 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (3011 posts) -

@jonny_anonymous said:
@meteora3255 said:

@wynnduffy: Just because Iron Fist was always a privileged white guy doesn't mean it isn't an issue. The source material is dated and Danny Rand is very much a "white savior" type of character. Marvel has re-imagined plenty of characters from Ghost Rider to Captain America to Captain Marvel over the years. Even if they decided to keep the character the same they could have at least touched on some of the cultural appropriation that is happening. To me the defense that "Iron Fist has always been a white guy" isn't enough to justify not even facing the issues (at least from the episodes I have seen) in the show.

He's not a white saviour, he is a deconstruction of a white saviour and he's always been that since he was first created. It was the reason he was created in the first place. Also, it's not appropriation. Danny Rand was born in the US but he was raised in Asia, calling it appropriation is like calling any immigrant who integrates themselves into their adopted homeland an appropriator.

No the deconstruction came years later. He was created purely to capitalize on the popularity of Chinese Kung Fu films. Appropriation of Asian culture has always been Iron Fist's super power. He is a textbook example of a white character being inserted into a foreign culture and rising to the top of it and becoming the absolute best of them. Writers have tried to change that in more recent years. But originally he was simply that.

No, he wasn't. Shange Chi who came first was created to capitalise on the Kung Fu craze and he was much much more successful. Danny Rand is not "the best of them", the only reason he wanted to become Iron Fist was to get revenge, so when he did he straight up flunked out and did a runner. He then failed at getting revenge. He's not even the best Iron Fist, he's just one out of 66 and is widely regarded as the worst one. He's not even the best Immortal Weapon, the Prince of Orphans who is the reigning champ (and a Persian) is better. Fat Cobra who is Japanese is better. Davos (Chinese) and Sparrow (mixed white-chinese) are at least on par and The Thunderer who is likely better than them all. Iron Fist has always been a deconstruction. It is a role reverse immigration story and then later when he first meets Luke Cage a story about privilege. So Danny fails at getting revenge and since he is a blond haired, blue eyed, naive, air-headed but well-meaning young white male, he decides the best course of action is to fight crime, so he goes around poor, mostly black neighbourhoods beating up criminals and he doesn't realize how messed up that really is until he meets ex-con, poor, black Luke Cage.

The show even does a version of all of this, Danny Rand literally saves nobody in the entire show. It's always Colleen or others doing the saving or pointing Danny in the right direction when he's losing it.

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#45 Posted by 2HeadedNinja (2247 posts) -

I'm at Episode 8 right now and I like it. It has a different vibe than the other shows they did which is was I wanted. Then again ... I am neither a Martial Arts expert nor am I particulary interested in stuff like "cultural appropriation" (I am sorry, but for the most part that stuff seems like people being outraged just to be outraged to me) ... so I might have a simpler view on this stuff. It's entertaining to me and I want to see how it ends.

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#46 Posted by SamanthaK (154 posts) -

I'm so sick and tired of these superhero movies/tv shows that i simply do not care anymore.

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#47 Posted by OurSin_360 (4458 posts) -

@deathstriker: i will judge this show for myself as i still haven't seen it yet, but fight scenes is not the focus of luke cage or jessica jones like it is in daredevil. There is really only one actual fight scene in luke cage, and only a few more in jj. Both were more different genres that happened to have powers in them. Jessica jones was a detective story focused around dealing with rape and abuse, luke cage was a crime drama about an ex con trying to clear his name, daredevil was pretty much the most typical of the superhero formula and revolved around hand to hand fights ala batman style. Seems like this show is supposed to be more about martial arta likw daredevil so i can see why the fight scenes are more important.

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#48 Posted by Deathstriker (502 posts) -

@deathstriker: i will judge this show for myself as i still haven't seen it yet, but fight scenes is not the focus of luke cage or jessica jones like it is in daredevil. There is really only one actual fight scene in luke cage, and only a few more in jj. Both were more different genres that happened to have powers in them. Jessica jones was a detective story focused around dealing with rape and abuse, luke cage was a crime drama about an ex con trying to clear his name, daredevil was pretty much the most typical of the superhero formula and revolved around hand to hand fights ala batman style. Seems like this show is supposed to be more about martial arta likw daredevil so i can see why the fight scenes are more important.

Yeah, I know the shows are different genres, I watched them too. DD and Iron Fist are more action orientated, but Luke still fights or beat someone up nearly episode and it was rarely interesting to watch - I'm not sure why think the entire season only had one action/fight scene. Him breaking into Cottonmouth's bank and getting shot a bunch (his "hallway fight") was supposed to be a big moment and was shown in just about all the trailers, but it wasn't that well done. So still, Luke Cage has action climaxes and Iron Fist has better action climaxes than it.

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#49 Posted by RonGalaxy (4688 posts) -

I'm 2 episodes in, and it seems fine. Doesn't seem overtly offensive, and I'm usually sensitive to that stuff. Not sure how people find this offensive, but not Daredevil or even the Nolan Batman films. They all do the same thing.

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#50 Edited by BabyChooChoo (6558 posts) -

I love that the climax to this superhero show about a martial arts legend ends with a roof fight...against a dude with a gun who doesn't even know how to fight. Daredevil fought a dude with a gun. First fight scene of the show too. And he kicked his ass.

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And before we travel down the road of "well, season 1 of Daredevil ended with him fighting Fisk in an alley." Sure, but season 1 of Daredevil also established on multiple occasions that Fisk isn't just some dude. He's insanely resilient and much stronger than the average man. All Harold Meachum did take cheap shots at his non-fighter son and kill the one Hand member because Danny showed up and it caught everyone off guard and even then, it was still a struggle for Harold because he wasn't a fighter.

Listen, I know it sounds like I'm being hard on this show, but my problem keeps coming back to the fact that the writing in Iron Fist is, to it's own detriment, obsessed with trying to drive home the point that the person the show is named after is a legendary warrior.

"I wasn't chosen, I earned it."

"[...] constantly challenging and being challenged."

"The Iron Fist is a living weapon."

And so on and so forth. Where it all goes horribly wrong for me is that it never shows why people in this universe hype him up so much. Even the impact of him unleashing his powers in the last episode is somewhat lessened because it shows him scared, hiding under a table for the longest time until his girlfriend gets a gun drawn on herself.

There are a few reasons why Daredevil, Arrow, and the Flash worked so well...for the most part anyway (listen, I like those shows, but I'm not gonna sit here and pretend each of their first seasons didn't have their own fair share on inconsistencies). For one, we sorta catch all of them at the start or very early on in their careers when no one really knows what to make of them. Iron Fist immediately sets the bar high when Danny starts rambling on about his training and whatnot. There's no real barometer for the other three so almost anything they do is cool. The fact Iron Fist is immediately treated so special carries a lot of weight. He beats up some no-name guards, no-name Chinese gangsters, and some no-name Hand students in training. Fine, I'll concede that he gets to show off a little there, but I would argue the last one doesn't even count because if not for his friend Davos, he would have lost for sure.

However, when he comes across the first person where there's some actual stakes to the fight (the dude in the truck), it seems like a pretty even fight.

Like...what? This is the legendary Iron Fist we've heard so much about? Can't even brush aside some random jobber? Same with the 3 duels and the fight against the man using Zui quan/drunken fist. Danny Rand wasn't holding back. He sucks. Or rather, he doesn't seem to be that much better than any other fighter in this universe. This is holding back:

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Yes, I wanted to see Danny kick a whole lot more ass. Call it projection if you want. But I wasn't the one hyping him up. That was all the show's doing. If they're going to try and sell me on the lead character right off the bat, then I'm ready to listen. They treat him special so I wanted to constantly see him do something special. I wanted to see with my own two eyes how he earned the mantle of Iron Fist. Instead, all we got was a bunch of sloppy fights and him edging out victories thanks to nothing but a bunch of deus ex machina.

Thanks like, just my opinion though, man.