Am I the only one that is actually enjoying this game?

I haven’t finished it yet but after playing about 10 hours and getting to parts that people are complaining about I am really enjoying this game. Parts of the internet I try not to go to seem to be on fire about this thing but nothing so far seems askew from the world that was setup in the first one. I just got to the big shift and I’m actually curious to see how this plays out.

If Sony said I could get a refund or even a store credit I'd take it and buy the upcoming samurai game. TLAU has great graphics, very good gameplay, but the story is bad and disrespectful to what came before in the same shitty way as Game of Thrones season 8 or the new Star Wars movie.

It's extra disappointing since Naughty Dog was a top-tier dev to me, now I don't know. At the very least they aren't good at writing stories anymore.

We're a group in Discord watching a friend play through it, and nobody is enjoying a single aspect about the game. Beyond having good art direction, that's all the game feels like it has going for it. The characters are nothing like the originals, everything feels so badly written, and the plot points make no sense.

Characters act so completely different from what was set up in the original game just to have the story progress in a way that would never have gone if these characters stayed true to themselves.

I'm keeping what I'm saying as spoiler-free as I'm trying to, so I don't want to go into specifics just yet. But this is certainly a slap in the face to the people who liked the characters from the original.

It has a 95 metacritic score so you're definitely not alone...

I'm of two mind about the fan reaction (and not far enough to have my own opinion on it), if the characters truly are acting in illogical ways and are not consistent with who they were in the previous game, it can be pretty damning as far as the writing goes. On the other hand fans tend to react overly negatively with whatever doesn't fit their head canon, so I'm taking the initial reactions with a grain of salt.

Anyway I'm two hours in and I enjoy it as pure spectacle. It's a beautifully made game and it's hard not to be impressed at the artistry at play here. That being said I have hard time taking the game seriously as the "high art" it wants to be, though keep in mind I had the same reaction to the first game.

Personally I'm of the mind that if the game really want to comment on the violence at play here, it should be at least willing to mechanically represent the violence in a way that is consistent with its theme, which like the first game it doesn't (so far). For as much as the aesthetic has a layer of realistic violence over everything, mechanically this is still nearly as gamey as any Uncharted games. I have trouble taking the violence in a game seriously when I literally kill thousands of people, if the game wants me to take it seriously it should also be able to take itself seriously enough for its mechanics to be in line with its meaning. "This is how video games are", which is basically what Neil Druckman said when asked about that ludonarrative dissonance thingy, is basically saying games don't deserve this kind of critical attention and ignore the fact that some indies definitely have mechanics in line with their ideologies. I think we gave a pass way too easily to Last of Us on that case (funnily enough, Uncharted doesn't bother me cause its thematically more in line with unrealistic american super heroes, and in that context I can accept that there's a bunch of no-name bad guys that needs killing).

Anyway, I'm off subject here, I'm enjoying it but there's definitely a lot of valid criticisms that you can apply to this game. The fan reaction though, I'm taking with a grain of salt.

I haven’t followed the fan reaction much at all but I’m maybe 8 hours in and I’m enjoying it quite a bit, though I do get the sense that the Seattle chapter is feeling pretty long relative to all of the settings in the first game with the possible exception of Pittsburgh. Not sure if we’re going to head elsewhere at some point — but it’d be. Ice to get some setting diversity.

The reactions on the internet are loud, but they'll probably report the game has sold several million copies by next friday, so no, you're not alone.

Been enjoying it so far myself, haven't yet bumped into stuff that would've made me as angry as some people seem to be.

I don't want to sift through a bunch of rotten threads on the internet to get the general answer, so please help me out: what exactly is the general audience' beef with this game that I keep hearing about?

@ghost_cat: There's a certain group of people (you know the ones) that have essentially made this game their new "The Last Jedi" and all that entails. It's a shame, because there are plenty of very real problems the narrative and gameplay has, but all that criticism mostly gets overshadowed by the vile vitriol spewing from this particular groups collective mouth.

@ghost_cat: I feel like Rob Zacnys review is a pretty direct summary.

@ghost_cat:

It's hard to get into without spoilers, but I'll try.

First off, there is a segment of people that are mad about SJW stuff, in particular LGBTQ inclusion.

However, there are also people that just seem unhappy with the characters/story. Original characters from the first game seem to be portrayed differently, saying/doing things that don't seem to mesh with how they originally were in the first game, doing dumb things that seem to ruin what people loved about them in the first game. Possibly a result of bad writing, others saying it's character assassination.

New characters seem generally unlikable and/or uninteresting. The story/themes are about a revenge tale that is rather generic and poorly told, but in a self indulgent way as if the writers were incredibly proud of themselves for saying "Violence bad." Also, they happen to be saying "violence bad" in a hyper violent game, that revels in cruelty and misery without giving the player any self agency or choice.

There are also a segment of people that aren't really thrilled with Sony right now. Most of the story for this game leaked months ago, but they have been brutal with NDCs and DMCA violations. There is also some pretty graphic sexual content in this game, and Sony as of late has been pulling the censorship card on other third party games that are trying to get on psn. Then of course, the last few years have had several stories about Naughty Dog having poor work environments. Amy Hennig, who lead the Uncharted games was forced out, there have been allegations of excessive crunch and unhealthy working environments, and at least one sexual harassment complaint that I'm aware of.

I loved the Last of Us, like many people, for it's story and characters (also the mp was phenomenal and seriously under rated). I never wanted a sequel, I wanted that story to stand alone, so perhaps I'm bias.

I haven't gotten a new game since Animal Crossing in March though, so I picked this up. Have a four day weekend after working non stop for the last month and have put about 12-15 hours in so far. Technically, it's a masterpiece. Looks amazing, runs great, incredible art design, music, acting, animations. All the tech, great. However, I've gotten to the "twist" in the game, I've tried to play through, and I can't. The characters are bad, the story is bad, I'm done with the game. It just feels gross and awful and I'm done with it.

So no you’re not the only one but a lot of people don’t like this game sums up this thread just fine. I wasn’t going to play it for the sake of just being off of video game violence lately and nothing I’ve heard has made me regret that. The mechanics of the game sound exactly like the first and I didn’t like them then. Story is more important to some people than others. Everyone’s different if you are okay with a game that no one else likes (not this one, we have established a meta critic that’s pretty high here some other theoretical bad game) that doesn’t make you a monster obviously just different and at this point we should be embracing those differences

As has been said, the game reviewed very well so it's not just you. I'm about 7 hours in and it's what I expected, more of the same but prettier with a few new mechanics (like most sequels) story wise the game isnt as interesting to me but I never thought they should have made a sequel to begin with from a narrative stand point.

All that being said I just played through Kingom Hearts III (because it's on gamepass and I hate myself) and the story in this game is a fucking masterpiece compared to that. It's very clear the creators/directors of both games care about their work though, which is nice. (even if they both suffer from Hideo Kojima levels of egotism)

It's funny how a game can get 10s everywhere but when the public gets to play it almost everyone hates it. Why even have game reviews anymore.

It’s incredibly fun to me. I don’t understand the narrative about it not being fun. I understand the conversation about not everything needs to be fun, but this is one of the most fun games I’ve played in a while.

As an outsider looking in (Watched a Let's Play of the original when it came out, don't own a PS4 and didn't feel like this needed a sequel anyway) watching the reactions to this game has been strange. It kind of reminds me of how everyone loved Bioshock Infinite completely for like 2 or 3 weeks before everything turned around and everyone seemed to now hate the game, only this time it seems like that's happening instantly. Though doesn't help that there are a loud minority alt right morons attacking the game over having LGBT characters, makes you take a second to figure out whether someone actually dislikes the game or is just a dick. Then you have the awful working conditions at Naughty Dog to factor into this too, and how much of the backlash is part of that.

There is a split between people who hate it because of "SJW" agenda, and those who hate it because their opinion on poor writing means review bombing the game on metacritic with 0 point scores.

Whilst that's part of it, it's not all of it. Audience expectation comes into play. Before you start playing, you have an idea of Joel and Ellie. How they act, how they think and what they do. There are things at the end of the Last of Us you want some closure on. You have an idea of where the world is at and where it needs to go. If those boxes aren't ticked, someone could be disappointed.

I'm still not in the meat of the game, but I thought the early portrayals of both Joel and Ellie were wildly effective. Especially considering the tone of the first...ten minutes or so is very "let these characters summarize the critical takeaway from the first game." Once it settled in, I was very happy with how natural even that felt.

I can't wait to be done with work today and spend the next few days really sinking my teeth into this thing.

Maybe my opinion doesn't count because I'm watching a playthrough like I did with the first game, but I really like the direction that they went with the story. I don't want to presume too much but I think those deriding the writing are missing the point, or they don't want to see it. Just because we grew to love Ellie and Joel and see things from their perspective doesn't mean that they are the only people in the world. Everyone means the world to somebody.

Ellie and Joel are older in the trailers, so it's not a spoiler to say some time has passed since the first game. So hearing that the characters are different is a baffling criticism to me. People (and relationships) change over time.

@csl316: There's something of an obvious difference between characters shifting over time like that and characters who just seem to have been given totally different writing direction.

The criticism seems to be aimed at the latter.

I'm almost 7 hours in and I have no clue what people are talking about with characters acting differently or inconsistently than they did in the first game. My only real criticism of the game so far is that they really do lay it on kind of thick with wanting the player to feel bad about what they're doing. Whenever you're fighting human enemies, they make a point to have the other enemies yell out things like "oh my god, they killed Brian!" and shit like that. It's clearly trying to nudge the player and say "that person had a name and friends and a family and you killed him, don't you feel bad? huh? huh?"

I've been rolling my eyes at that stuff and if it keeps going down that path, I can see myself souring on it a bit but other than that, I, so far, don't really have too many complaints. The character moments seem just as good as the first game, the game is absolutely gorgeous, the character's facial expressions in particular are pretty incredible. I know fun is apparently a dirty word with this game but I do actually find the combat a lot fun and it's been a good mix of stealth and gunplay. I've had scenarios where I've snuck past enemies and avoided fighting all together, scenarios where I stealth killed everyone without them being alerted and scenarios where I went loud and just shot the shit out of everyone. All of them have been pretty satisfying ways to play. Game seems good to me.

@efesell: I guess I just don't see it. They don't seem drastically different to me. Somewhat different, sure, but not entirely new characters or something.

People are bitching because there's a misunderstanding about letting a narrative play out and let these characters evolve, and then just appeasing fans because "that's what they want." TLOU2 is clearly far less sentimental and darker than its predecessor and the characters absolutely reflect that.

More importantly, characters that are forced to become desensitized to horrific violence as a state of being, in addition to Joel's lie clearly damaging the two's relationship--yeah, no shit these characters are different. I'm playing the game right now, and so far I'm pretty enthralled by it.

I’m enthralled by it and can’t wait to see what happens next.

So I just got to the ‘thing that happens in the middle of the game’ and I think I get why people are so cold on it. I think it’s a weirdly clumsy choice right now and I’m wondering if the game will justify it later on but right now it feels like the game was structured solely to surprise audiences rather than to give them a more cohesive (if less mysterious) experience.

I’m definitely appreciating my time with it but it’s a truly weird choice.

@doctordonkey: The Last Jedi and following movie aren't good to me and millions of others, so I'm not sure if that's a good leg to stand on. The two are similar since both disrespect what came before it. To keep things kinda vague, the golf club scene was probably the most disrespectful cutscene I've seen in gaming and seemed like they were trying too hard to be edgy. The setup for that scene doesn't make much sense, they would't just trust a group of armed strangers going by the rules and personalities in the first game.

I'm sure there are some dumbasses out there who dislike Last Jedi because Rey is a girl or this game because of the lesbian stuff, but that's not most people. Rey was a girl in her first movie and that one wasn't bad, the second and third suck because of writing and direction. I can't imagine caring that Ellie is lesbian, the hate/dislike I've seen isn't towards Ellie, but at Abby and the game's writers. I don't want hate for new Star Wars or this game to be tied into being anti female or lesbian, that would be gaslighting.

a more informative way for me to digest these reviews would be: "Post your review and review score, and then also post how many times/week on average you use 'sjw,'" so I can negate all of those reviews and just accept actual critiques. If, after those are gone, the reviews are still calling the writing bad, then I'll take the writing as probably being bad. Hoping GB reviews it.

I really, really hope that they do a Spoilercast. I can imagine Abby, Bakalar, and the rest all having really different takes.

Yes. You and Kallie Plagge are the only two people in that boat.

Maddy Myers and Rob Zacny had a really good spoiler free discussion of the game on the Triple Click podcast. Those two were not too hot on the game overall but I do think they give it a fair shake, and approach it from a position of liking the first game. Really illuminating if you want reasonable criticisms of the game without dealing with internet hyperbole.

I wrote a post in the other thread as to why the game's narrative turned me off early on, it's a bit emotional and repetitive (and spoilery): https://www.giantbomb.com/the-last-of-us-part-ii/3030-57216/forums/an-actor-compares-tlou2-to-schindlers-list-twitter-1882808/?page=4#js-message-9116192

There is nothing wrong with The Last of Us II. The gameplay is actually way better and more rewarding than the first game. The graphics, sound, and overall presentation is great. The main thing people don't like is this story, and not because its bad, because its not even in the slightest. People don't like the story because of the direction it goes. Even though if you actually pay attention to the plot details of the first game, the story of the second game picks up right where that left off and reaches its logical conclusion. I could give details, but then I'd be spoiling a lot. Simply put, the storytelling is too real for a lot of people to accept, and that is the problem most people are having with the game.

In my opinion, this is easily GOTY so far.

Been watching a let's play, and it seems superior than its predecessor in every way.

That being said I actively disliked the first game and this one also seems bad.

I want to add that in general when your argument is that the other party is simply too dense (or in error) to understand the story or the decisions made within it, you're better off doing them a favor and trying to explain in detail what it is that you seem to think they're missing point-wise. Just calling them names, either explicitly or passive-aggressively, only makes you look in the wrong.

@av_gamer: Going by this thread, if someone dislikes TLAU 2 they're a bigot, an idiot, or now the game was too real for them lol. Maybe there are just people out there with very different opinions than you? It's fine if you like the game, but there's a ton of people out there who dislike it and most of them have valid reasons. Art is subjective.

Also, I think the first game was "more real" than this one. For example, Ellie and Tommy only survive the golf club scene because of plot armor, the group leaving them alive makes no sense.

Everyone at the dev studio did a great job besides the writers, they shit the bed IMO. It being GOTY at moment isn't saying much, there haven't been a lot of great games this year. Ghosts of Tsushima could easily be better. TLAU is all about story and characters, it's the best looking game this gen, but oh well given the shoddy writing.

I don't have much to input, but I am loving it. I really enjoy the gameplay, taking my time hiding in the grass and popping off enemies, and in between marvelling at the technical achievement that this game is. I can only be honest. Story beats aside, it really is a masterpiece. Also, I didn't kill any dogs! This will fill the gap until Tsushima comes out nicely. I'm sure I'll go back to it too, a friend of mine who doesn't own a PS4 wants to see me play through it and I'd be happy to do it all again for them.

I like the game but I don't love it. My criticisms are actually kind of different from the ones most people have, though I share some of the general issues. It's too dark, both in terms of tone and, at times, visuals. It is glacially paced at times. The new mechanics are mostly just borrowed from Uncharted 4. You spend a lot of time alone in the game, which is annoying because Naughty Dog does the best companion characters in the business, but also interacts with the slow pacing to make some of the segments just kind of boring.

My biggest issue is that the game just doesn't have the same emotional resonance as the first one because it's much less about relationships and much more about driven individuals. It's just less engaging to me.

The game also greatly de-emphasizes the danger of clickers and infected. Clickers went from these super dangerous enemies in the first game to a total joke you can kill with one button in this one, and while I get the whole "man is the most dangerous beast of all" thing, which the first game also did, it really ratchets down the tension. As a whole I think the game is much easier (at least on normal) than the first game.

In terms of the "twist" people are talking about, I can't really discuss my issues without getting into spoilers so here are some spoilers for that whole thing:

I don't feel some grand narrative betrayal, I just feel like things are being dragged out and too many story beats are being repeated. You spend a LOT of time in this game following someone who wants to show you something cool, and then having to explore the 'cool' thing when you get there. This was also the main beat in The Last Of Us DLC chapter, and featured in the main game too. It's really old at this point, and it's just one example.

These gripes don't ruin the game for me, and I can't imagine getting as upset over any of this stuff as some people have. It looks great, it has some really good performances, the guns mostly feel good to shoot, there are some decent puzzles (a lot of them are very 'classic adventure game' in nature), and the combat encounters against the human antagonists are tense and rewarding, for the most part. But other than visuals this doesn't feel like a game that's 7 years more advanced than the first one. The first game felt like a capstone to the 7th generation, and this just feels like another Naughty Dog game, somewhere in the middle of the pack.

@doctordonkey: this game is better written than Last Jedi.

You can not like it, or not enjoy it but TLOU2 is much more true to the bleak world of the first game and who the characters are: damaged trauma survivors existing in a world that is too grey for good or evil.

I gave my opinion, you can accept it or not, but to call TLOU2 a bad game just because of the story is weak. Its funny how gamers pretend not to care about the story in games, until they want to whine about the story in games. BTW, many people are complaining about how dark and bleak the story is and how they don't like how their personal favorite character is {fill in the blank} or did {fill in the blank}, so my comment about the story being too real for them is a fact not just an opinion because many critics of the story are saying this. TLOU universe is a cold, cruel, and unforgiving reality. So the story that takes place in the game is exactly how it should be. There is no sunshine and rainbows, and there is NO plot armor. Anything can happen at anytime, and the writers did a brilliant job capturing that feel in the story.

I could comment on all the nonsense with people complaining about a feminist agenda, and review bombing the game solely on that, but I'm assuming the people here who don't like the game's story have better reasons, and actually played the game to know such nonsense doesn't even exist.

Finished it, while I understand some of the criticism I do believe this game executes on its message about the cyclical nature of violence. Everyone is or will become a broken person because of this, all of the characters seem aware of this, and yet some are blindly driven on be it for love, vengeance, or some other factor.

@av_gamer:

There is no plot armor

Are we playing the same game? Because uhhh...I strongly disagree with this. There are characters who you don't expect to die who end up dying, but they do so not because of organic situations they get into but because that's the time when the story demands they die. There are chunks of the game told in flashback where you know certain characters won't die, but also characters continually put themselves into ludicrous situations and come out fine until it's time for them to die dramatically to further the plot. If there were no plot armor you would just find Tommy dead when you get to Seattle. The fact that characters are able to survive ludicrous situations where they get captured or allowed to live by people who have been up until that moment trying to kill them is what plot armor is all about. The fact that it's not absolute does add tension and make the story different, but there's tons of plot armor in this game.

I don't personally think the writing is terrible. There are some nice moments, some good character work, etc... The plot itself is hamfisted but lots of video game plots are hamfisted. It is flawed in a lot of ways, though. Characters don't respond realistically to the harrowing situations they're put in, often chatting without a care in the world after incredibly dire situations, when we know from other parts of the game that these are not stoic and emotionless characters. Nobody says anything when the horse dies. It's Ellie's personal horse as far as I can tell but it's never mentioned again. There's lots of stuff in this game. I just didn't think the emotions or characters rang as true as they did in the first game. If they did for you that's great.

In terms of bleak darkness...It's a pretty bleak game but I've seen bleaker movies. That bleakness is in service of a point they're trying to make about cycles of violence and man's inhumanity to man and inability to see each others' perspectives, and I don't think they nail that. I just don't buy the characters enough to feel like they're doing anything but going through a video game plot. Which is fine, not every game is going to nail the story, but it's also legitimate to criticize it and it's legitimate for people to be turned off by how bleak it is. Naughty Dog has the right to make the game very dark and we have the right to say when we don't really like it (this is not my biggest complaint.)

It works for you and that's great, but for a lot of us it's a step back from the previous title.

As for the LGBTQ+ stuff in the game...it's 2020. I can't understand why anyone would be bothered by any of it. Some people just need to grow up.

What does it say about you as a person if you're fine playing as someone who violently butchers dozens upon dozens of human beings, but get upset when she kisses another girl?

@av_gamer: Wow, the generalizations in this post.

Are there people arguing that the primary draw of this game isn't the story? And so we shouldn't scrutinize the narrative more so than other games, where the story is clearly not the main focus? It's the sequel to Naughty Dog's The Last of Us, do I even have to say anything else?

This whole trend of stories "sUbvErtIng eXpeCtations" is getting old really fast. GOT tried it and failed, Last Jedi tried it and failed. This game tried it and failed. It looks and sounds like a technical masterpiece but Neil Druckmann obviously can't handle writing a story by himself.

There's a ton of plot armor for Ellie and Tommy, but @bigsocrates already got into some of that. Now that I'm not on mobile and can do spoiler tags:

They could've killed off Joel and I would've been fine with it, but Naughty Dog chose to do it in the most disrespectful, over the top way I've ever seen in gaming, so of course myself and others are going to have a reaction to that. Commander Shepard, John Marston, and Arthur Morgan are some of my favorite video game characters ever and they were killed off, was I mad about it or did other fans backlash? No. Arthur from RDR2 has a slow, painful condition that's literally withering him away, so it's not like he has a "pretty death".

If Rockstar had Arthur get shot from behind and while wounded he gets beat to death with a broomstick, and then someone spits or pisses on his dead body then we have to play as that character for hours then myself and others would be pissed. Even The Walking Dead, which was always overrated to me, was smart enough to have Negan kill Glen and not Rick, since if Negan killed Rick there would be no redeeming him. This should be common sense, but people don't respond well to the killer of the main character especially when the main character was blindsided and it was brutal. The situation itself was stupid. As many have said online, Joel and Tommy from the first game wouldn't have been so relaxed and friendly with armed strangers. Hell, I don't know if Joel from the first game would've even helped Abby when she was getting attacked by infected. Joel and Tommy were dumbed down to fit the story and it makes no sense for the group to leave Tommy and Ellie alive. Ellie/Abbey's final confrontation was maddening too, but I've written enough.

Personally, I don't care about a character's gender or sexual orientation. Ellie was a girl and lesbian (or at least bi) in the first game, and that was my favorite game of last gen. I've only seen hate go towards Abby and the game's director. I've actually seen a lot of people say they wish Amy was still with the studio, so in that cast, it's people asking for a woman to be in charge.

Okay - so about 20 hours in and I think I’m turning on the game. It’s becoming really obnoxiously emotionally manipulative In a way that is obvious and transparent and also frustrating because you aren’t given any agency as the player. I was mostly enjoying the first 14 or so hours but I’m quickly reaching a point where I don’t want to keep playing. I think that Naughty Dog has pretty clearly hit their target notes from a story perspective, but I’m quickly starting to question why they wanted to hit them in the first place. Two big issues are exacerbating the problem:

1. The game length. This feels padded and repetitive mostly from a story perspective but also the some of the gameplay sequences are too drawn out. Like, you made your point at least 5 hours ago, why are you dragging me along, repeating it over and over again to sledgehammer it home? And from a gameplay perspective, how many times can you possibly recycle the same gameplay mechanic?

2. The best part of the first game was the relationship forged with your companion over the course of the game. The dialogue injected levity into the game in a way that helped to balance out the violence and heaviness of the narrative, preventing the game from becoming a slog. This game lacks that companionship and the comic relief that it brought, because large portions of TLOU2 are played solo; even when it isn’t, your companions change constantly so you can’t establish the same relationships. And also they just aren’t as interesting and lighthearted as Ellie was in TLOU with her silly puns and naivety.

All the discourse around this game has just taught me that people like to throw around "good/bad and better/worse writing" as objective facts when it really comes down to what they like.

Like, it feels like it has lost all meaning as a critique especially since people basically never elaborate.