What are your thoughts on the game's female characters?

@militantfreudian: it doesn't grant any bonus, i don't know where you heard that. At most you get 1 exp for every ten crowns you spend, but it's the same with every other time you pay someone in dialogue (give this man 150 crowns to look the other way and you'll get 15 exp).

@militantfreudian: Well if its one thing the witcher series does well its to make the player realize noone is pure evil and noone is pure good.

I'm not that far into the game but the few female characters I've encountered in the main story pretty much seem to exist as someone for Geralt to fuck. I haven't actually met up with Ciri yet but I liked her in the flashback sequence so I'm anticipating that she'll be a little more fleshed out on her own.

@cagliostro88: That's fine! I'm saying the "that's just how things were!" argument comes up anytime there's criticism of any fantasy setting, and I think that's ridiculous.

You do get exp out of it. However, that's not exp for sleeping with a prostitute, but a game mechanic where anytime you pay someone money for anything in the game outside of merchants (so bribes, etc.), you gain experience at the rate of 10 coins per 1 exp.

Maybe you got the game mixed up with Pillars of Eternity where sleeping with prostitutes gives you statbonuses. Its not limited to females though as manwhoreas and other "creatures" gives you bonuses for sleeping with them aswell.

Maybe I've misunderstood what Gies was getting at, but it seems to me he was specifically talking about the setting as "oppressively misogynist". I think that's an accurate assessment, and doesn't really have any bearing on the quality of the women characters. The full quote in context makes a little more sense:

The Witcher 3's expanded cast of characters doesn't preclude more screen time for just about everyone, and CD Projekt has done work to make for more interesting, influential women that feel just a bit more fleshed out than they've been previously. This includes a number of powerful women with complicated motivations and goals of their own.

That said, the world CD Projekt has created is oppressively misogynist. In some ways, the game deals directly with this — characters acknowledge again and again that it's hard to be a woman there, that it's a place of violence and terror and that women must work harder to be recognized and respected.

You'll need to be specific about what's causing you to feel that way, because outside of the brothel, I can't think of any female characters, major or minor, who's main purpose is boning.

@rethla: he might have, but in that game even sleeping in the library or in the stables gives you bonuses :D

@turambar: @rethla: @cagliostro88: Weird, but that's good to know. I heard it from a bunch of guys (friends of my friend) who, if I remember correctly, said that it was worth it to spend money there for the experience points and other bonuses, and I'm pretty sure that wasn't a sleazy joke that went over my head.

@rethla: I do acknowledge that the game deals with shades of grey, but what made me feel uncomfortable is how the scene played out, especially the sappy music.

@turambar: I'm curious, too. There are seven women you can eventually proposition. Two are prostitutes and two are previous love interests that are pretty ingrained into the lore.

@militantfreudian: no it's not worth it, you'd have to spend 10-15-20-etc k to gain even one level and waste a lot of time skipping dialogue. In the two brothels the prices are 20 and 40 crowns, so it's 2 or 4 exp for every sexual encounter. You would waste a looooooong time skipping dialogue and scenes to gain a sizeable amount of exp. If the friends of your friend did this to gain exp they might not be the brightest people, if you would pardon me saying that :D

@pcorb: I don't see it as a cop out. If the world they live in is so patriarchal then using sexuality to gain influence would be a powerful tool. Hell, a lot of women in our society use make up for that very reason (not that there's anything wrong with that).

@yelix: ok but the developers have every right to use real world medieval history as inspiration and to take cues from it. Just because they chose to depict a hard, deeply problematic world doesn't make it inheritly bad.

@cagliostro88: Suffice it to say that I didn't get the impression that they were that bright, even before learning that what they said was untrue. It's just that they seemed far enough into the game (something about an attack on Kaer Morhen) at the time that I took their word for it. In any case, I'm actually glad that this wasn't true.

It sounds like The Witcher 3 is a bit better than the previous game when it comes to handling female characters and worlds better than the Witcher. I haven't played the newest game yet, but how women were used in The Witcher 2 was pretty darn gross in spots if you picked Roche's path. Ves, the woman so tough that she becomes a de facto leader in an elite band of soldiers, is held hostage and sexually abused multiple times throughout the game to spur Geralt forward. Ves is supposed to be tough and self-sufficient, at least until the story needs her to be weak and helpless. Same goes for Triss in the later parts of the game, she's a world bending sorceress until she gets locked in a cage for Geralt to save.

If the Witcher 3 just avoids using the damsel in distress trope for multiple mainline plot points, it would be better than its predecessor.

When it comes to the appearances of the sorceresses in the game, I do find it odd that all of the beauty of the sorceresses is explained away and seemingly accepted as "they magicked themselves beautiful because they had to," but male sorcerers aren't treated the same way. Dethmold is and ugly, wart-ridden ghoul and the world doesn't seem to care (or if people call him ugly it doesn't seem to effect his status in a meaningful way like it apparently would for the women). Its things like that where people cry foul on the "its magic and medieval times so women are treated worse, yet look impossibly beautiful by modern standards." The men in this world are allowed to have different shape and sizes and still be in power, but the women are flawless almost without exception. The men who can change their appearance choose not to, I suppose, because they don't have to conform to modern, western standards of beauty, while the women do. Men never go full frontal, but women do with regularity. It is a dissonance that the Witcher universe permits and indulges in.

Honestly I would love to see what would happen if a dev created a gender swapped Witcher world. I doubt people would lean on the "its just history and everyone has it bad" argument in that case.

Honestly given the fact feminists are the group which complains when men's knees are more than 30 cm apart(with VERY little spin outs, less than 5%). I basically think its impossible to make a game which has true characters and backstory without them coming in and calling the game sexist. Apparently everything is sexist nowadays.

Spin-outs: people in the same group who call them out on their BS.

Witcher 3 has one of the best female characters I've seen in awhile. These people are BONKERS. I've also heard complaints that Geralt is too stoic... I mean seriously?

The Witcher 3 is anything but misogynistic and I think you'd need to be pretty backwards and jaded, or at least very naive to think otherwise. I'd say it's one of the most fair representations of human nature I've seen in video games.

It's almost like there's an element of commentary in that bit of lore.

@grtkbrandon: The problem with your main premise is that the quote isn't just that one statement. It is pulled from 6 full paragraphs in the review that give it much needed context. Here is the beginning of the aforementioned section, with a link to the full review since they do mention, in a very general way, some missions in the game and I don't want to spoil anything needlessly -

That said, the world CD Projekt has created is oppressively misogynist. In some ways, the game deals directly with this — characters acknowledge again and again that it's hard to be a woman there, that it's a place of violence and terror and that women must work harder to be recognized and respected.

Then it kills them, over and over. There are several monster types devoted to murdered and wronged women whom Geralt is frequently asked to destroy, and other villainous characters are shown torturing or even butchering women to show just how evil they are.

Full review for the interested

So, the review says that the game world, as created, is misogynistic. Sure, I can see that. I haven't played the third game yet but based on my reading of the article, I can see how someone could come to that conclusion. I played the first Witcher game, and I can't, in good conscience, say that the game world didn't play with the more problematic tropes of women in danger, sexual violence, etc. Heck, even in that first game, the developers had some seriously questionable choices in how they dealt with women and sex, namely the collectible cards that the player would get whenever they bedded a woman. They literally turned sexual intercourse into a "Gotta' catch em' all" minigame. As a woman playing that, I was pulled between thinking it was super gross and also trying to collect all the cards, because I am a completionist and it was in the game, so I was gong to do it. Either way, The WItcher has always had a weird relationship with women and sex.

I heard that the second game was better and that the third is even better. Female characters are given more agency and are stronger and more fleshed out. That is great news. I haven't had a chance to start either game, but the fact that they removed the card game in later installments makes me think that they are getting a little more mature when dealing with women and sexual situations, Then again, I am only depending on what I am seeing online and hearing from people who are playing the game, so my knowledge and understanding only extends so far.

I think that it's also fair to argue that this world is a horrible world, for both men and women, and part and parcel with that is the fact that women are victimized in a way that some may find uncomfortable, but that that is the type of world they live in. The problem is that all too often women are seen in scenes where they are victimized or sexualized, or both at the same time, but there isn't a balance to show other women in a more powerful position, especially in games. Games such as The Last of Us and Deus Ex: Human Revolution (just off the top of my head) show female characters in positions of strength with little sexualization, and that is a welcome change of pace. Now, I'm not advocating that we can't have all types of tropes and characters, just that it's nice to see a mixture of different elements. I have no problems with a vampy sidekick character or a sexy damsel in distress, but it's cool to see a badass lady who isn't conspicuously showing cleavage for no other reason than looking sexy for the player. It's all a balance.

Either way, in the review I think that it is fair to point out elements you may think are problematic. A site like Polygon has a specific point of view to their editorial content, so when I read their reviews, I expect some amount of focus on story elements and ideas such as this. However, I don't think a reviewer mentioning this in a review means that they are accusing the developers of being secret or overt misogynists, or even that the game is bad. It is just an element to consider for people looking to purchase it.

That quest was great, they always make even the most vile characters have a slither of redeemable qualities to them. It's meant to make you uncomfortable, and why wouldn't the baron himself want to make you sympathize with him he's definitely not going to say "Hey, yeah i'm a piece of shit hate me!" His wife was also a piece of shit to IMO, who fed kids to monsters and cheated on her husband while he was at war.

I remember reading somewhere that sorceresses do actually often have a lot of scars and deformations, they just use magic and illusions to cover it all up 24/7. Which is a convenient excuse for impossibly perfect bodies, but at least there is one and it works. As far as clothing goes, I dunno, most of them seem fine? Keira Metz's chest is almost completely on display for anyone and everyone to take a gander at but otherwise it doesn't seem like the appearance of the major female characters in The Witcher 3 is anything especially worthy of scorn. Before you say "Ciri doesn't have magic", note the big scar on her face and the fact that she gets - and looks - pretty beat up on the way to the Baron's.

I've been reading the Song of Ice and Fire books this year and I've finished The Witcher 2 and played a lot of The Witcher 3. Those two universes are comparable in a lot of different ways, and one of the most noticeable ones is the female characters. In neither story are the two genders considered equal, although in both, female characters who are exceptionally powerful can find themselves in positions of power. And in both, at least one female character is more than good enough to physically fight with the best of them (Brienne in SoIaF, Ciri in The Witcher 3). Generally, though, both series have their fair shares of prostitutes and lines of dialog that aren't too kind to women.

Personally, I believe that in both series, this is just part of a sort of attempt to portray medieval life and attitudes realistically, and/or it's another detail that shows how shitty this life is if you aren't somehow exceptional. Before complaining about the portrayal of women, keep in mind that most of the peasant men in The Witcher and A Song of Ice and Fire are very expendable. War has broken out in both worlds and villages are fair game. You can join a military, probably to be placed on the front line and die or become seriously maimed in a battle or two. Bandits regularly pick off travelers, more often male than female, in both universes and in The Witcher, anyone who has to venture into a forest runs a very heavy risk of getting killed by a monster - and most of those guys are male because most of the women are busy keeping their lives at home together.

I'm not going to tell you that one side has it worse than the other or that it should be a more fair portrayal or whatever - if you feel like the way that women are portrayed in The Witcher is a great big negative for it, then write up something about it or just don't play the game. You've got ground to stand on if you want to talk about sexism in The Witcher. Just remember that Andrzej Sapkowski and CD Projekt Red meant to portray a world where sexism is a problem and they probably aren't really sexists themselves, or at the very least aren't purposefully sexist.

Oh gee. I meant to make this a few sentences only. Now I get to re-read it and make sure it's OK before going to work.

@jadegl: I hope you'll be pleased to read that they got that kind of female character too in this game

@jadegl: The card collecting from The Witcher is allways exaggerated. You dont "collect" cards but you get a sexy drawing of the lady and a few lines of text noted in their biografy instead of a fully animated sexscene. There is no item or xp reward and there is nothing keeping track of how many cards you have and theres nothing that tells you how many you can collect and which characters are "eligible" to seduce. Its also totally optional.

@turambar: Well, Yennefer is really the only significant female character in the main story so far and I don't think her and Geralt have gotten through one conversation so far without making some sort of allusion or innuendo about them fucking. I assume when Triss shows up, it will be fairly similar.

Oh, Polygon.

If you can't be relevant through excellence, be relevant through controversy.

Gwent really should have used 'romance' cards a la The Witcher 1. Imagine the faux outrage that would have caused.

The quote was only there because it's what sparked the initial question on the topic. The question is the premise for discussion, not the quote. I definitely agree that CDPR have improved dramatically since the very first game, which I didn't play but have read enough about. As I said in another comment, The Witcher 3 does a really good job not victimizing women. I can't speak for the sexual themes of the game yet.

In general the women in the world are the most interesting I've seen in a game in a long time. The "common women" even moreso than the main characters.

The world of the Witcher is very much like ours and full of intense hate, racism and sexism (that's to start). The people in this world are again much like us. Some are victims. Some are not. Some want to be. Some don't. Some are fighting a system in vain. Some are happy enough just to be alive. Some are simple. Some are complex.

The confusion around this game is about World vs Message.

The world is undeniably full of misogyny and racism.

CDPR is not a misogynistic or racist developer for taking that on.

Game World =/ Developer

@rethla: I'm not exaggerating it, I played it. I managed to collect quite a few cards.

Of course it's completely optional, but as a person who wants to do everything in a game to get my money/time's worth (200+ hours in Skyrim, repeated playthroughs of Hotline Miami to get the puzzle pieces, masks and weapons, etc) I had an internal, I will say probably personal, issue with whether to complete these optional quests or not. Also, the implications of the collectibles were also problematic. It reduced sex to a game where you get a prize at the end. Normally that prize would be the cutscene, as you said, but they also gave you a kinky card.

If we're going to talk about objectification, and I don't normally dive into that debate. how is turning the women you bed into a collectible card not reducing them to an actual object to be won? That's why I am glad they jettisoned it in the later games. It was necessary and kind of skeevy, imo.

Okay, so, a few problems. You implied every female character you met when you've apparently only met one. Regarding Yennefer, are you only referring to her during Geralt's dream sequence? If not, I find your portrayal hard to believe considering

(potential spoilers if you're not up to that part)

After trying to remember the entire conversation at the end of White Orchard, and then the scene in Vizima, there exactly three sentences shared between them that matches your accusation in any way:

1. When they first meet and she says "I'd even embrace you if you weren't covered in blood and gore."

2. When they are riding to Vizima and Geralt remarks he had a dream and Yennefer responds "Knowing you, it was probably filthy."

3. After the audience at Vizima and Geralt remarks he really wants to take off the uncomfortable dobblet and Yennefer responds "Another time and I would have considered that a proposition, and taken you up on it too."

You're also completely off base with regards to Triss.

@turambar: Don't forget the whole previous lover aspect, which is pretty important. If we put it into real world context, finding someone you loved that was supposed to be gone would be a pretty emotional affair. If that attraction was still there then there would definitely be some sexual tension, but also a host of other feelings. Sex is a pretty natural thing.

It's almost as if a video game set in a fantasy world isn't exactly the best forum to be used to examine real life social issues. Go figure.

For a pulpy fantasy game the women in this game are pretty good.

I only had one short sex scene in the whole game and that was the "Friends with Benefits" trophy. You do meet up with a bunch of other women in the game and they are just as strong as Geralt and not some eye-candy. I never hooked up with either Yennifer, Triss or any other women in the game. Don't worry about Ciri, she's a fantastic character.

This whole topic is based on a quote from Polygon that came from Arthur Gies. Enough said.

@grtkbrandon: I know you were using it as a basis for further discussion which I think is very important. I jump into these types of discussions here and there, so I like seeing them come up, especially when they are thoughtfully presented. I think it is also important, however, to make note that this quote looks much more inflammatory than it actually is when pulled from the review. Context is important, and it is especially important when a lot of people will see a quote and may assume that that is it, when in all actuality there is much more to it and much more thought behind it, at least that was the impression I got when I read the review as posted. My comments were more for everyone who may jump to that quick conclusion, instead of seeking out the review for themselves and seeing the context of the quote.

@kishinfoulux: I don't believe that prevents people from discussing how they feel about the game's female characters.

@jadegl: Its a role playing game and you choosed to have sex in the game. Why is it worse if its depicted as a well drawn card instead of a janky ingame animation?

Anybody else find the Alchemist women, with the sick girl. She was flaunting her ass pretty blatantly...but I wasn't offended :). The game is really even handed though. In this Witcher game the overarching story is really elevated above the curiosity of the sexual nature of the characters and their encounters. Also, I find many of the older female npc's etc.. to be really well done...quite rare ime.

@blupotato: Well best place or not it is exactly what The Witcher is trying to do so it's totally fair to talk about it. I really don't understand how is that a problem worthy of a snarky comment. I'm one of the first that admitted having problems with the game in the thread and had a good discussions with two fellow bombers. I'm still loving the game immensely too, so there's that.

Honestly when people tell me that a game where 90% of people you kill are men is unfair to women, I can't help but chuckle. You often see complaints that female characters are just there as background, but as a proportion, the men with a background story vs the women with a background story HEAVILY favors women.

Obviously the issue is that YOU are desensitized to the murder of men but still sensitized some women showing some skin/being helpless(even though the number of helpless men in the game is probably approximately equal to the number of helpless women).

@jadegl: Very true, taken out of context it does make it seem like the reviewer's entire basis on the article is set to a specific agenda. I did defend the article in another comment here, however, and the review was largely positive overall. A lot of people here have come to the same conclusion as the reviewer. The world is misogynist, but not in an intent to encourage that type of behavior. Any scenario that involves any injustice is painted in a negative picture. Though, I can't say there are too many "good" things that happen in this game since it's full of tragedy.

@turambar: Okay. I think I made it pretty clear that I was early in the game and I was only commenting on my perception so far. I may very well be wrong about Triss but I was going with what I know from Witcher 2.

And I have seen all the scenes you referred to with Yennefer and considering they have only had like 3 or 4 scenes together so far, I think my comment was still pretty accurate.

I haven't ever stopped and thought "well this character is two-dimensional and poorly written" yet, so I'd say it's doing a good job. That goes for characters of any gender.

@milkman said:

If you've seen the scenes, you should already have a sense of who Yennefer is, a sense of what her relationship with Geralt is, what her actual goal is, and how boning Geralt is something far from the top of her mind. If anything, their actual relationship as a couple is of more import to her than just the chance of them having sex based on the dialogue. Add on the fact that the three lines that I listed are pretty much the closest things to what you're implying, but were all sarcastic and snarky in nature as opposed to the words of someone pining for love, and it's impossible for me to see where you're coming from.

In short, your comment was pretty off base.

Yennefer and Geralt have about 20 years of a relationship behind them which was cut short by their deaths, subsequent ressurection, spending time as prisoners of the Wild Hunt and then Geralt's prolonged amnesia and Yennefer being a prisoner of Nilfgaard. I can understand why two passionate lovers might have some steam to let go, hell, most people probably have similar dynamics with their ex-partners.

Additionally, their relationship began in a very peculiar way: they met when trying to tame a djinn and through various shenanigans, Geralt ended up banishing that djinn by wishing to be with Yen forever. Both characters even discuss the fact that their attraction - with all those tumultous break ups and subsequent returns, regardless of the copious amounts of fuck ups by both sides - might be artificial, with the neverending flirting and sexual chemistry being actually magically enforced. What this entails is actually one of the few things about the Witcher saga I genuinely like and consider interesting writing, especially since it puts Geralt's casual infidelity and Yennefer's almost cruel coldness in a very particular light.

What I'm saying is: not the greatest example to gripe about, as there is a pretty good justification behind it. It's especially visible when you meet again with Triss - the dynamic between her and Geralt is much more romantic, melancholic and nostalgic. There's flirting, sure, but the tone is very different. And it fits, as both the books and games lean towards the idea that Triss would be a way better partner for Geralt and is generally a way more adjusted person than Yennefer - however, their love was never (and never will be) immortalized in dozens of songs and stories.

Also, the comment about every character wanting to fuck Geralt - not really. Apart from brothels and the Yen/Triss business, there are three optional sexual encounters available, one per big area (Velen/Novigrad/Skellige). A couple of characters comment on Geralt's physique and a prominent character of the Skellige arc seems to have a crush on him, but that's it.

Yep. A bit sad to see some of the defensive reaction about an objectively true statement about this game. In the fictional world of The Witcher, some women are treated poorly because they are women. This has nothing to do with the attitudes of CDPR. Pretty simple.

Although, I understand the defensiveness, as the correlation between artist and their art's content has been argued many times before. To be clear, I really don't believe Gies is doing that here. But, for example, when the Song of Ice and Fire books became popular again thanks to the HBO show, there was much said about how horrible it was that George R. R. Martin chose to create such a misogynistic world. That every gendered slight, every female oppression, and even every female rape was born from his mind alone. So the misogyny of Westeros and Essos exists solely because he wanted to make it that way.

Of course, that is the case. That entire universe came out of his mind. But placing the blame for the bigoted actions of fictional characters on the creators themselves seems to only work if you ignore anything about the creative process or art itself. You could just as easily decry that Toni Morrison chose to put her characters in extremely racist and sexually dangerous worlds, so that bigotry is all her own. But it's not, and that's dumb.

So yeah. I think it's pretty clear that people are finding subtext in what Geis said that was never intended. But it does exist from other sources, so I get the frustration. We all just need to be a bit more thoughtful before we react.

The sad thing, to me, about some of the critiques from some people about women in The Witcher is that it's ultimately going after a piece of fiction that is considerably pro-feminist. CDPR has done Andrzej Sapkowski's novels justice in many ways, including the pro-feminism themes addressed in the novels and the games. I think like anything else, some people are conservative about the use of violence in media and where that violence maybe directed. The novels, and the games, are giving us fully realized, dominate portrayals of women who overcome adversity in a world that is dominated by abusive and power hungry men. It's dangerous to live in the Northern Kingdoms, and even moreso if you're a woman. So, characters like Yen, Triss, Ciri, Phillipa, Sile, and Saskia (and there are many more female characters to point to who rise above, as well, in the Witcher universe) are all dominate women who rise above in a world where everything is stacked against them. Bad things are happening, especially to women, but you need to remember the rules of storytelling here. Overcoming adversity is paramount, and you can say alot about a group of characters who achieve a level a power, and dominance in a story, by how other people like them can wind up.

And here's something that many people who haven't read the novels may not even know, but the dirty little secret of The Witcher is the extremely clever use of leveraging a stoic, badass, male action hero to include storytelling of badass female characters. Ciri, one can very easily argue, is the main character of the novels (something I've heard said about the Witcher 3 as well). In the novels, you're essentially reading about the coming of age of this young girl who winds up becoming a huge deal...with Geralt serving as a gateway for readers who may never even give the notion of reading the coming of age story of a girl to even be interesting.

So, it's kind of sad to me how off the mark some people have been about the Witcher universe in where it stands on women's issues. For me, especially as a storyteller, there are some amazing things to take away about how to write, and portray, women overcoming adversity in a world where everything is against their favor. This is pro-feminist pieces of fiction.