The Wrestling Discussion Thread

I thought the 4-way was a little flat. Definitely some fatigue with seeing with Naito/EVIL and Ibushi & Tana vs Dangerous Tekkers, but it's understandable given they're working with about half the roster stuck outside of Japan. Still some decent wrestling overall, a couple botches at key moments aside. Shingo/Suzuki was fun.

I think my problem wasn't that the matches felt flat, it was that everything else around them felt so weightless. I'll use spoilers if somebody still hasn't watched the show: For me the thing that bothered me was that even the title changes weren't treated with care. MiSu won and then immediately just left, same with the Boner. Now, I wasn't expecting any big promos or anything, I know this is NJPW, but it felt like the title changes were completely no sold. Nothing was given a chance to breath and everything felt like they were just going through the motions. I was hoping they were going to go back to pre-COVID booking since this was a show with an audience, but it seems like they're still in the same holding pattern. Naito finally getting his big celebration that he wasn't given at Wrestle Kingdom was cool though, that was the big bright spot on the show for me. That felt like it mattered, even if it was just him getting the title back from EVIL who was just an emergency champ.

That finish to the NXT 4 way is proof the NXT you used to know and love is dead.

Anna Jay seems to of re-found her confidence against Red Velvet tonight.

@dizzyhippos: Not to mention that in the middle of all this Dream stuff they decide to hire ANOTHER alleged pedophile in Josh Briggs.

Two things: Wrestle House was the best thing in wrestling during COVID by far and I'm sort of sad to see it go (better to not have too much of a good thing, I guess) and Excalibur being back felt so good.

NXT did 850k and 10th in the demo. Pretty fucking clear one show needs to move off Wensday and there is apparently chatter of moving NXT to Tuesday.

I couldn't help but cringe a bit every time J.R. or Tony mentioned Excalibur was back. The couple times they touched on it casually, you'd think the guy was just on a fun vacation or something. I don't know. Just made me feel weird.

https://www.prowrestlingtees.com/we-love-hana-also-available-in-black.html

Really cool of AEW to promote the Hana Kimura shirt and store when they super didn't have to.

Other then the best friends match I have no complaints about Dynamite, it did what it needed to do to set up the PPV and other then the brawl going to long was good. I dont know what it is because I love both of those teams and how stupid the feud is but the best friends matches are just not doing it for me lately.

@dizzyhippos: I think Chuck and Trent are in a weird spot on Dynamite where they aren't really doing anything. They're just two guys having matches. Santana and Ortiz are getting all the promo time and character work in this feud. And I don't even remember what they were doing before this. Orange Cassidy somehow has gotten more character development, and he doesn't even talk.

Kind of a lackluster episode to me. Setting up a lot of things but nothing surprising or really too well done I thought.

I agree. I feel similarly about Santana and Ortiz also.

For me I respect what they've been doing with Orange Cassidy but I liked him more in his previous role alongside of them and the three of them as a unit in part I think. I also think some parts of all this Jericho and OC feud have been great but at this point OC is basically just being a normal wrestler.

It is tough because without a crowd reaction they have to do different things. And I do support pushing OC. I still think you have to pick your spots with him though.

And for Santana and Ortiz, the Inner Circle is kind of just treading some water right now.

The thing I'm curious to see is how long AEW will be able to keep a two hour show feeling fresh. Right now, a lot of that seems to come from new roster hires. That can't do that forever, obviously. It seems like a lot of people are kind of just treading water right now, aside from where ever the Hangman stuff ends up going. I'm curious what things look like three, four, five years from now. Both on screen and backstage.

@brian_: Well in fairness its right before a PPV so its months of storylines wrapping up, you can't really introduce new people right away.

@dizzyhippos: I meant that I want to see what AEW does when they can't introduce new people to keep things fresh. What they can do with the writing to keep things feeling new and exciting when they don't have someone new to throw in the mix. I didn't mean I want to see them add more people. I want to see what they can do when they run out of new people to add.

@brian_: I'm not sure i get your statement that AEW is always introducing some talent and that's all that carries them. Sure, they've had cool reveals. A lot of great moments from recent time in AEW are not about roster reveals though.

The best storyline in AEW for months has been the Omega v Hangman stuff and sure, they're working FTR in now, but after they've been in for a while now and made adjustments to the AEW style and working their storyline. The Bucks v Omega and Hangman was the best match in recent memory and it had nothing to do with reveals.

@toughshed: I didn't make that statement. I also gave credit to the Hangman stuff.

AEW: 928K

This vid randomly popped up in my YouTube listings yesterday, and not to sound like Jim Cornette...but I wish wrestling could get back to this level of excitement, star power, and action here in the States. Where folks improvised their promos, were allowed and out right encouraged to be loud and create colorful personas for themselves. Where the matches weren't so overly choreographed to the point of looking fake, and didn't need to be some technical clinic, or include fifteen tope suicidas. Where they felt real, like they were actually beating the piss out of each other and the crowd fed into every punch, kick, and chop of outright donnybrooks involving half the locker room without any of the stupid chants today and certain people caring too much about how well the talent performed their gymnastic routines. Where the presentation wasn't so slick, but still willing to take risks in unique venues. This shit, compared to the product they pass off now as pro wrestling is like night and day. Hell, really any example from the 80's would do from the bigger promotions, but this was the best I've stumbled upon in a while containing so many instances of "why can't wrestling be this good today?" moments. I dunno, maybe I'm just old and grumpy.

You're sounding old and grumpy because what's great then will always be great but not everyone was a star and sure as shit not every match was great. Those brawls and punches and kicks were great when done by masters of their craft but when it was done by some muscle dumbass who couldn't work his way out of a paperbag and couldn't even be carried by a star then I can't subscribe to the good ol days doctrine.

@shiftygism

@shiftygism: I wish they were more willing to have crazy characters now but otherwise... i'll pass on the arm wrestling and stuff like that. I think @fugoy is right about that nostalgia also.

?? Confused how I am misinterpreting the comments.

Not a big issue but I think in most all these cases the debut was good but AEW adjusted over time and improved from everyones debut. Brodie Lee and Dark Order have gotten better every week since he debuted.

That FTR vs. Hangman & Omega segment has to be segment of the year. Hangman's anxious millenial gimmick is also the most capturing the moment gimmick in a long ass while in wrestling.

@retris: I love the little details like the makeup under his eyes

http://www.adampagewrestling.com/

Hangman is really good at being a wrestler you guys.

AEW is moving Baker vs Swole to the main PPV card.

Also apparently Vince gave every wrestler 30 days to get off Youtube/cameo/twitch or they will be fined/fired. Paige already said NOPE.

"Independent contractors"

Good move for wrestling, valet, and managerial talent....but she's currently not any of that, is she? Part of wrestling's currrent problem is they pulled the curtain back too far with social media, WWE should do the same by moving away from all of the docs they produce, only releasing footage for career retrospectives and whatnot like the Hall of Fame. Hopefully these are the first steps in getting the company back to the way they did business and created marketable personas in the Golden Era.

This isn't a flame, or a diss, or anything, so please don't interpret it as this:

Why do people care so much about what "their company" does with regards to ratings? I keep seeing AEW fans online bang on about how close they are to a million. Like, for the average person, who gives a fuck about ratings?

@sombre: It reminds me of folks who compare reviews for console-exclusive games because they want to show that their console purchase choice was the "correct" one. Obviously, viewership is a more direct indicator of success than review scores. Both are metrics that a fan can hold aloft to show the superiority of their brand even if there are plenty of variables that can impact those numbers beyond one brand being better than the other.

@sombre: I think people originally got into AEW ratings because it wasn't clear whether the promotion was going to survive long term, and ratings were going to be the decisive factor in that. WWE also fed into that by putting NXT up against it to try and kill the promotion, so people really wanted AEW to beat NXT (or at least do well) so that the show wouldn't die. After the new deal that's less of a risk, but that kind of thing tends to take on a life of its own, and AEW fans started using ratings to "prove" that the show was better than NXT, which annoyed WWE fans, and then you get the wrestling equivalent of a console war.

It's worth noting that even with the new TV deal AEW could be on kind of shaky ground in some ways (COVID has destroyed live gates at wrestling shows and the guy who bought the show at TNT is no longer at the network) so it makes sense that fans want to see the show continue to succeed because that means the promotion will continue to stick around and have resources to do the stuff they want to see.

This could just be me projecting but I think a lot of AEW fans are bitter, grizzled, former WWE fans. They're pissed and they want to get out the aggression that they've built up over the years on the perceived perpetrator. There's no way to get at Vince realistically so they fight him through proxy via his defenders on social media.

It's sad to think that these defenders, these battered spouses, that have complained and hated this product for years are now stuck defending it against its defectors.

@sombre: what wrestling fan isn't involved in learning about the business end of things these days? Also, like @bigsocrates said, if AEW doesn't keep up ratings it will go away. I get why AEW fans care.

Also, the whole business is in the decline overall so I think wrestling fans in general should care about that as well.

@hansolol: The WWE hate can be sad how some go on about it (like you say, battered wife kind of vibe) but I also have a big fuck you attitude towards them. I don't go on about it but I love seeing them decline and they deserve to so I keep up with it that way, but no more than that. Vince and his wife are awful people too so that helps.

If Asuka loses KanaChan TV it'll be on sight for Vince.

@sombre: You have to remember some of us have been fed the line "its WWE or nothing" for 20~ years so naturally when something we prefer comes along and is showing growth we wanna talk about it. (Also some people are just trying to trigger the crazy arm of the WWE fanbase)

Maybe it's just as an NJPW guy, I learned to just...love the product. No silly bullshit, no soap opera, just good storytelling and even better wrestling

What does New Day do? Big E and Kofi apparently make a killing on Cameo and Xavier has been campaigning to be a part of the re-launch of G4. They are in a unique position where WWE needs them more than they need WWE. Actually quite a bit of top talent are now in a position where they are making decent enough money through Twitch and other platforms outside of WWE that if they stood together against Vince they could really back him into a corner.

What I'm saying is wrestlers should unionize maybe with the help of SAG-AFTRA since they are basically actors who perform their own stunts on a scripted television show.

Bob Backlund would be proud of that wordplay.

Wildly stupid and irresponsible decision making all around in that Matt Hardy vs Sammy Guevara match. Stupid spot. No protection from the concrete floor. Hardy couldn't see where he was falling. I doubt Sammy had a good view either. Gross that they let the match continue. Especially after Aubrey Edwards called for the match to end.

The Shida match was very good, the bucks match was very good, the tag titles match was good but too long and Moxley vs MJF was good.

This promo was fucking great.

overall a lower end AEW show a solid 3/3.5 show hindered by the fact that AEW's standard PPV is a 5 outta 5 and Matt Hardy nearly killing himself (I really hope he takes this as a sign to retire). But hey the booking made sense and I am all for Mox vs Archer.

Darby is apparently fine, he rolled threw the toss and it just looked like death. According to Meltzer anyway.

The Bucks v Jurassic Express and Thunder Rosa v Shida were great and the matches of the night.

All four guys in the first one just did a great job wrestling that match.

Thunder Rosa I thought killed it and they put her over and made her look great, getting everything but the win, so hopefully she can wrestle more in AEW. I like her look and gimmick, think she has a great presence in the ring and has some cool unique moves. I like her striking a lot.

I loved her Undertaker sit up esque moment kicking out of that Falcon Arrow on 1.

The Tag Title match was good. I like where things are going with the Omega and Hangman story, and as I expected, although I thought the match was a bit too long. Where's that Kenny SUV headed? Cleaner HQ I guess.

Moxley v MJF, even though the run up has not been great, was a good match for sure. Moxley did a great job with little touches in the ring. I thought the end though was kind of dumb but I think that about a lot of their "ref didn't see it" moments. If it was such a big deal not to use the move it was in the contract you figure it wouldn't matter. But they were selling the arm part well.

Their best Battle Royale yet but wasn't so good. Rey's mask was sick tho.

Glad Hardy is okay. Seems like there were multiple bad calls there, from not having another table to fall on to not just pulling the plug on the match. That whole feud has kind of been a disaster.

Final thoughts on production stuff:

I know its in Daly's Place and all but can we get more of a custom set and look for a PPV? Disappointing to have it look the same as any other week to me. I personally really love when you can just see a still image and know what PPV it is because of some unique set elements and stuff like that.

I think the PPV suffered a lot with a down crowd most of the time. I guess maybe it sounds better there so they need to mic it up. They also can easily add some sweetening. They absolutely did in their pre recoded shows (I remember one, I believe one of the great ones recently, had too loud fake crowd noise in fact) so I'm confused why they haven't made any efforts to figure out how to do it on a live show. As an NBA fan, they have been doing it there for a quite a while, and while I've had moments of annoyance with it, mostly its subtle and no issue. For wrestling though its actually an add.

I do not want it to be done too much but like I'm saying they've already been using it a lot in certain moments. I think adding some in live, like the NBA does, would add a lot. Or get the crowd you have there mic'd up well. I'm cool not getting bigger pops and reactions but when its dead quiet during the tag title match that sucks.

Press F to pay respects to "Jungle Boi" Griff Garrison.

Dynamite was good tonight, you could argue too many promo's but none of them were bad so its fine. Excited to see Miro, and Tay Conti while still green looked completely different leaning more into her Judo/BJJ background instead of trying to do a super generic style like in WWE.

G1 Climax participants and blocks announced!

Tanahashi, Naito, Evil, Kenta, and Sanada should be great.

Kota, Shingo, Okada, Jay and Ospreay also in the same block!

I'm so out of touch, didn't even know Rusev isn't in WWE anymore.
Really sad about it, he was one of my favs.

@ulfhedinn: He was part of that mass release group back in spring, hes been pretty much constantly streaming on twitch since then.

Also that shirt Miro was wearing somehow cost $650

@dizzyhippos: I thought the pacing was really good. To me there weren't too many promos, but just the right amount. A really good balance if you will. They were enough to give the matches some breathing room from each other and made them stand out more. They actually made me see the importance of a Nyla vs. Tay match. I also liked that each match on the show seemed to have a specific purpose other than as an exhibition / ranking ramifications.

The G1 looks sick this year

Pretty good Dynamite episode. I really liked the first match. That spot when Rey dove to the outside and pretty much landed on his head was scary as hell tho to me.

Haven't seen much of Rusev but excited to see him in action.

It was a limited Gucci shirt. Not that it isn't stupid as hell to me lol.

Conti has moments where she does some really great stuff (had a wonderful knee strike for example) and has some top level showmanship but othertimes looks really green. Her selling needs a lot of work to me. But she's clearly I think got a ton of potential. I feel similarly about Anna Jay. I hope they both keep getting reps and tag again.