To chime in on the movie discussion, Refn is at his best when his style doesn't get in the way of the storytelling, but enchances it. Drive is a fairly simple movie, and that works in it's favour. Only God Forgives is what happens when that balance is off. Valhalla Rising has an off balance as well, but it's still okay. Bronson is fantastic, but a lot of that is on the shoulders of Tom Hardy.

Similarly, I think Kojima's best game not only in terms of writing but also gameplay is the original Metal Gear Solid, it feels lean and purposeful in almost every aspect, whereas every game afterward only became more and more bloated in both mechanics and story. Sometimes simplicity is best.

Also I don't think Kojima is a Neil Breen type, I think he's closer to Zach Snyder. Confident and strong visual style with some incredibly vapid writing that tries to be deep. Both strike me as 14 year olds that certainly have raw talent, but never really grew up or refined their talent.

I agree on Zach Snyder's style being visually strong. I will say that after 300, which I'd argue established Snyder as a household name, his subsequent superhero flicks after Man of Steel have very nearly fallen into "Bayhem." (Every Frame a Painting, a phenomenal YouTube channel (now defunct) talked about this.) The two things that'd send Snyder fully into that category are cultural stereotypes, and every male character being an asshole to everyone else.

(Regarding Man of Steel--the best thing about that movie is Michael Shannon as General Zod, chewing scenery like it's the best ham sandwich.)

Really like @brackstone singling out MGS. It may have been a youthful reaction, as I described in an earlier post, but that game is a stand-out memory for me. MGS 2 was also fantastic, but in hindsight incredibly convoluted. When I think about it, the faults of MGS, and Kojima, are not typical failures of a writer--weak structure, weak characters, plot holes, cliches, etc. It's the incredible excess of content and Japanese dramatic style, as I mentioned earlier. MGS 2 was truly where the story began to just... keep introducing stuff. New characters and concepts never stopped coming, while the nature of major players either remained completely stagnant, or changed rapidly--sometimes unmotivated and sudden.

I'll say it again: Kojima lacks an editor, cannot edit or cut words to save his life; while being a Japanese man writing Japanese fiction, that we gobble up in all its confusion. Try watching any live-action Japanese film and you'll soon spot similarities in that specific theatrical style.

I thoroughly enjoyed MGS1-4. As crazy and bizarre as the series was, I really like the way everything wrapped up in 4.

I was super excited for 5 as well, but ugh. Great game mechanically, but that story was AWFUL. Ultimately, that's what I come to MGS and Kojima for is the story. Konami, budget issues, Kojima, whatever - it left a bad taste in my mouth. I have a feeling that Death Stranding will be so convoluted that the story will be difficult to follow.

@notnert427: Neil Breen is like all the bat shit insanity of Kojima at his least restrained with absolutely none of the polish. His films are fascinating experiences. I'm not sure how else to describe them.

I've loved all the metal gear solid games (except 3) so yes, the hype for this is real for me. Before i saw the new watchdogs it was the only game i was actually excited to see.

I think people have a hard time accepting games with serious flaws AND genuine insights. MGS is both wildly stupid and (sometimes) genuinely creative.

I'll always take a bad game with some neat ideas over the usual AAA "good enough" filler. I have no patience for all the "Last of Us" and "Bioshocks" of the world.

I know that this discussion has clearly been going on a while already and you've probably already got a sufficient answer, but here's my POV on the subject.

First off, I don't ever get hyped for or like things "ironically". If I like something that's bad, it's either because it's bad and that makes me laugh so I like and enjoy it, or I like it in spite of it being bad because it entertains me or has something that makes me a fan. Sometimes I will get excited for something I know is gonna be shit, but it's not exactly ironic, I'm just excited to experience the trainwreck.

In regards to kojima, he absolutely is a pseudo-intellectual, and only a few of his games are poignant at all, and those are probably because of the co-writer he had that helped refine his ideas. He got rid of that co-writer. It's why 4 was what it was. I don't know how I feel about 4, on the one hand it's absolutely stupid and retcons and handwaves tons of the continuity that did not need to be, on the other it's really dumb which is fun and is well directed with plenty of good set pieces. I believe one fan site described it as roughly "the best bad game you can play" or something to that effect. I hate 5.

But I'll say that, unless it's like 5 and there's literally no story, kojima games are always a wild ride, and I've always wanted him to just go full weird. People aren't wrong to say he's an auteur or that he likes to experiment, it's just that most of the time these experiments result in a mess. However, it's a mess that's definitely the way he meant it to be, as if it was vomited out of his brain, and it's highly enjoyable. I for one really love the movie Zardoz, completely unironically, it's one of my favorite movies. Death Stranding seems like it could potentially be kojima's Zardoz, and that's why(to answer your question) I am wholly unironically excited for Death Stranding.

I think nothing makes more sense than Kojima and Refn working together, because they are pretty much the same: both produce work that is pretentious and self-aware of that pretentiousness, all while deploying tremendous levels of style (take a look at Kojima's cameo in Refn's "Too Old to Die Young"). But Kojima does tell better stories and does try to discuss social/political topics, and how successful that lands for people is subjective.

@ghost_cat: I was made aware of that show because someone in this thread mentioned it earlier (by trashing it) and i'm actually enjoying it quite a bit, just watched the episode with Kojima and i'm glad he did more than just sit there.

I agree about them both being pretentious but i'm not sure Refn's quite as self aware as Kojima is. I will clarify my earlier post by saying that i'm not ironically looking forward to Death Stranding but I am more enticed by the ridiculous elements of it and the sheer spectacle than the actual core story.

While we're talking about directors involved in Death Stranding (whether cameos or otherwise) Del Toro's movies just seem competently put together and not in a style over substance kind of way. Granted i've only seen his comic book movies. (loved Blade 2, it's a very fun and dumb movie. Norman Reedus was actually somewhat charismatic in it unlike The Walking Dead.)

@boozak: Nah, you got Del Toro down with that observation. Same goes with his other movies (watch Pan's Labyrinth).

I think Refn has always been aware of his pretentiousness, but he's never really brought it to the surface with his films (there is a hint here and there in Neon Demon). However, I think he does bring an edge of self-awareness with TOTDY with some silly moments and characters, which makes it refreshing for his usual bleak/gritty seriousness.

I don't think there is anything wrong with being pretentious in the realm of art as a creator. As long as you have the skills to back up your ideas (which both Refn and Kojima have in spades), and you are not unleashing pretentiousness to present a pity party about your issues, it can be fun and provides confidence to push limits.

Isn't liking something because it is bad the very definition liking something ironically?

@darkeyehails: I mean I guess, that's why I don't like that term and don't say I like things ironically. The term implies that you like it because you're not supposed to because it's bad, that you like it as a joke. I also genuinely love Riki-Oh: The Story of Riki, because it's a really bad and cheap movie, on a perfect level, and that's why I like it. Not cuz I'm a hipster.

It's semantics but I feel like liking something ironically implies a lack of genuine fondness for it, and that's just not how I feel.

Kojima = What if Neil Breen had a hollywood budget.

@electricbarrier: in this case I actually want you to re-think the term "ironic" and scrub the negative connotations out of there. I'll continue the semantics argument: ironic appreciation of an entertainment piece has everything to do with it being a mess, or of low quality, or pretentious and jarring to common values and tastes.

Take Tommy Wiseau's The Room, arguably one of the worst movies made this side of the millenium. It eventually spawned the semi-biographical film, The Disaster Artist. One of the writers for the latter, Tom Bissell, had this to say regarding his take on the original film:

It is like a movie made by an alien who has never seen a movie, but has had movies thoroughly explained to him. There's not often that a work of film has every creative decision that's made in it on a moment-by-moment basis seemingly be the wrong one. [...] The Room, to me, shatters the distinction between good and bad. Do I think it's a good movie? No. Do I think it's a strong movie that moves me on the level that art usually moves me? Absolutely not. But I can't say it's bad because it's so watchable. It's so fun. It's brought me so much joy. How can something that's bad do those things for me?

So, people that ironically appreciate something are still appreciating that thing. The only difference being the author's original intentions didn't pan out--for a variety of reasons. And in some cases the creators of content clue in to said appreciation and start producing stuff in that same vein. You've got B-horror films, Sharknado, crude video games with strong social hooks, Metal Gear Solid--I want to say mumble rap, but that appreciation is not ironic.

Don't knock it, bud. Ironic appreciation is still appreciation. It's a second chance for something that should've died on the cutting room floor.

@rahf: Fair point, I suppose you're right. I guess it's more accurate to say I don't like things in the same way you would post memes ironically. My hesitation to apply the term probably just comes from people misusing it like that, and I mean people even use it as an excuse when they like something that's shit.

And I know all about second chances for shit that died on the cutting room floor don't get me wrong. I totally like all sorts of bad movies, that's one of my favorite kinds of movies! I think we might be cut from the same cloth here. Would you believe I actually haven't gotten around to watching The Room yet? I want to but when it comes to just outright terrible movies I've been working my way through the less big obvious ones.