Not.  Fucking.  Legally.   You can't legally resell your console games.

I've had no problems with PC games.
 
On top of that, I'm mostly a console gamer.
 
And you know, Oldschool, you're no better than Hitler and the Nazi's with your ignorance. Ignorance of other cultures (in this case, PC) caused the Holocaust (well, Hate, too...you hate PC, don'cha? I can tell). Is that what you want? I bet it is.
 
/Godwin'd.
//had too, sorry.

Look, the licenses are non-transferrable so therefore while the trade and sale of a second hand game media can be a somewhat legal grey area, the end user cannot in any way transfer that license to another end user via a bill of sale.    
 
People do what they do and Gamestop's trade is as much bolstered by new retail sales as it is secondhand sales, so most vendors turn a blind eye because the new sales fill in their bottom line.  You don't need to sign a document to agree to a EULA.
 
Of course the first sale doctrine is something that many people will fall back on to justify their point of view on reselling second hand games.  It proved to work for CDs but then CDs are not delivered with EULAs either,

Look, the licenses are non-transferrable so therefore while the trade and sale of a second hand game media can be a somewhat legal grey area, the end user cannot in any way transfer that license to another end user via a bill of sale.      People do what they do and Gamestop's trade is as much bolstered by new retail sales as it is secondhand sales, so most vendors turn a blind eye because the new sales fill in their bottom line.  You don't need to sign a document to agree to a EULA.

Of course the first sale doctrine is something that many people will fall back on to justify their point of view on reselling second hand games.  It proved to work for CDs but then CDs are not delivered with EULAs either

I feel awful defending these laws and EULAs no doubt, but by the same token, I feel as if oldschool isn't interested in his rights insomuch as he's just a bargain hunter who wants his cake and wants to eat it too.  Calling PC gaming unfriendly by way of failing to acknowledge how Steam's digital licensing system works just so he can grab a hugely valuable bundle such as the Orange Box for a piddling $10 really annoys me.

" @oldschool said:

" Repeat:  I am still waiting for someone to explain to me why I don't have to register my movie dvd or music cd and how it is, I own it and can resell it, yet, for some bizarre reason, you don't own a game, even if you pay $100 for it, you are just renting it? "

 The reason why you don't have to register any DVD or movie you is the same reason you don't have to register any console game you own - the licensing costs are offset into the cost of the console and online services provided - hence the certification badges slapped on boxes.  Honestly oldschool, you're sounding more and more like a troll with each post.  People who are only reasonably informed know this basic shit and yet, you somehow are confounded by simplest stuff.   Software is protected by the same copyright law as movies and all you are allowed to do is use the software within the boundaries of that law.   Go back to buying your second hand games while holding on to the pretense that you're supporting an industry you absolutely do not understand or really suppport and choose to remind blind to. "

Technically, to sell things legally, don't you have to register as a business, give receipts, do tax reports with the related income, and so on and so forth depending on the particular country's laws? So, selling used games is a grey area like people have said.

Anyway, the store was at fault, they got scammed, they tried to scam you. Not all PC games are like that as you found out yourself, not all console games are free of that either as has been mentioned. Both have pros and cons and maybe finding out a bit more you'd see that even for you the positives of services like Steam outweigh the negatives, especially when it comes to making things user friendly for not very knowledgable people, since installation is a breeze, as is the updating, as is finding friends to play with, etc, etc. As long as they aren't scammed that is, then things get complicated, with good reason. And no, PC isn't what puts barriers, there's a vast PC based industry without that issue. 2 out of 3 games in your case didn't have the issue for example. It's certain companies that put barriers, as they put barriers on consoles also.

As for saying things like, what if Steam is bought, or the company shuts down, then what? Well, what if Sony's bought or shuts down, and then your console breaks down with nobody to repair it, or no longer can have firmware updates since you no longer can login, or can no longer give you the patches that solve serious issues with the games you bought, what happens to your ability to play those games then? This kind of argument is pretty ridiculous, nothing lasts forever even if you have your copy in hand with no cd key-like restrictions. I'd faster trust Valve on PC with their no-resale issue yet their great pricing and great product support and great focus on actually providing good games and user content creation, than on 360 where TF2 is half the game it's on PC, nobody plays it anymore, I have to pay to access the online mode in the first place, and the only benefit would be that I would probably (not definitely as I explained above) be able to still play the single player portion in one of the worst case scenarios (not in all of those). The online modes on consoles will shut down pretty fast if the companies go down, you know. It's peer to peer gaming, but they do require at least matchmaking servers from the companies. With those gone, the game's not playable. Nothing lasts forever.

"

  I am still waiting for someone to explain to me why I don't have to register my movie dvd or music cd and how it is, I own it and can resell it, yet, for some bizarre reason, you don't own a game, even if you pay $100 for it, you are just renting it?

Er, no. Legally, you own neither the music, nor the movie, nor the game. You NEVER OWN DATA unless you create it yourself, you only buy a licence to use / watch / listen to it. This licence in very few cases encompasses the right to resell or distribute it.   The difference between movies, music and games is that the former two don't usually employ mechanisms that enforce these restrictions, whereas some PC software does, especially these days.   When you "buy a game", you buy a disc and a licence to use the software. For yourself. Some PC games and software employ mechanisms that prevent the reselling of the licence (which they are legally entitled to do!) , even though the disc can be resold. In these cases, retailers should not sell it to you, or inform you about it.  "

" @oldschool:  I'm a console gamer too! Woo for lesser beings! Except I understand the concept of CD Keys. Apparently you do not. "

"As for saying things like, what is Steam is bought, or the company shuts down, then what? Well, what if Sony's bought or shuts down, and then your console breaks down with nobody to repair it, or no longer can have firmware updates since you no longer can login, or can no longer give you the patches that solve serious issues with the games you bought, what happens to your ability to play those games then? This kind of argument is pretty ridiculous, nothing lasts forever even if you have your copy in hand with no cd key-like restrictions. "

Pm me your Steam username plox. I want to add you to the friends list. Your internet connection is fast, right? There are at least some free stuff on it you should try. I'll help you jump through the hoops the first time, then it's all real easy.

" @oldschool said:

" @Rallier said:

" @oldschool: Should you not be able to go back to that second hand game store and get a refund? They did sell you a game that does not work after-all.  Oh and Civ4 is a BEAST of a game. "Slightly" modifying the NPC's relations to you is a not cheating ^^ "

Yeah, I covered that before.  It won't be the slightest problem to get a refund.  Funny how someone preyed on their ignorance to begin with only to have me fall a new level of ignorance. 
 
Explain this "slightly modifying the NPC's relations with me"?  I am intrigued  ^-^ 
 

When you press escape during a game click on world editor (i might be a bit off with the name), it will open up the level editor and you can edit everything. I started playing on difficulty level 4 and the AI is absolutely savage there and  will rape you in groups, it hurts...   You might want to get the expansions for the game, they add a lot of structures and gameplay mechanics. "

" Well if it was only 10$ and you are getting your money back, then really no harm done at all I guess. "

" @SeriouslyNow said:

" @oldschool said:

" Repeat:  I am still waiting for someone to explain to me why I don't have to register my movie dvd or music cd and how it is, I own it and can resell it, yet, for some bizarre reason, you don't own a game, even if you pay $100 for it, you are just renting it? "

 The reason why you don't have to register any DVD or movie you is the same reason you don't have to register any console game you own - the licensing costs are offset into the cost of the console and online services provided - hence the certification badges slapped on boxes.  Honestly oldschool, you're sounding more and more like a troll with each post.  People who are only reasonably informed know this basic shit and yet, you somehow are confounded by simplest stuff.   Software is protected by the same copyright law as movies and all you are allowed to do is use the software within the boundaries of that law.   Go back to buying your second hand games while holding on to the pretense that you're supporting an industry you absolutely do not understand or really suppport and choose to remind blind to. "

You really are a dick.  That first part makes no sense at all, not even a little.  Licensing costs offset by the cost of the console?  So Sony make a loss on every console sold and yet also offset the licensing costs?  Also on the online service?  How does relate to a game you don't play online with?  How does that relate to a movie?  How is that offset when you put it in a machine and press play?  Wow.  Copyright laws protect a game from being used illegally - copying and selling, public broadcast, just making a profit in general, or causing the owner to make a loss (by making it freely available to others).  It does not stop you from selling it to a friend or store.  It does not stop you from giving it away.  It does not stop you from making a back-up copy and using that so as to keep the original from being damaged.  It does vary from country to country.  That is using within the boundaries of the law.  Sure, a developer can stop me from making reasonable use of the game, such as is the case here, but I then have a choice to not purchase any of their product and as a consumer, that is what I am choosing to do.  People who equate theft and piracy to selling a game you no longer want just stagger me with the blinkered acquiescent behaviour. "

 I never said you own the data - you do own the game.  You can sell it if you choose and another person can buy it and play it.  I really don't understand how this point gets so lost.  They can make the rules all they like, but they CAN'T legally enforce them and they know it. 

You guys are all wrong. The license IS transferable. 
 
I recommend you photocopy your box and cd key, send it to Valve, and say "MAKE IT WORK."
 
They will fix it.
 
End of story.
 
All you other emo idiots should chill out. You can sell a box copy of a game. Yes you can. Live with it.

I just wrote out a lengthy explanation and lost it (rage), so here's the shortened version:
 
Accept EULA (PC games / software) = Cannot re-sell right to use the software
Never made to accept EULA (Console games / books / movies / anything) = Can re-sell (see: First-sale Doctrine)

Reason for EULA = PC software extremely easy to carry on using after you sell it.  This would instantly cut the legs out from under the the new-copy PC software market, meaning nobody would bother developing PC software. 

Sad Irony = Internet Piracy has brought about the exact situation EULAs were supposed to avoid, making them largely redundant.
 
Why it isn't unfair = Because you know going in that it has no second-hand value and so you can account for it in the intitial value judgement.  ie. If you knew you could never re-sell your car, you wouldn't be prepared to pay so much for it in the first place and the original price would be lower to reflect that.

" @oldschool:
 
@Rallier said:

" @oldschool said:

" @Rallier said:

" @oldschool: Should you not be able to go back to that second hand game store and get a refund? They did sell you a game that does not work after-all.  Oh and Civ4 is a BEAST of a game. "Slightly" modifying the NPC's relations to you is a not cheating ^^ "

Yeah, I covered that before.  It won't be the slightest problem to get a refund.  Funny how someone preyed on their ignorance to begin with only to have me fall a new level of ignorance. 
 
Explain this "slightly modifying the NPC's relations with me"?  I am intrigued  ^-^ 
 

When you press escape during a game click on world editor (i might be a bit off with the name), it will open up the level editor and you can edit everything. I started playing on difficulty level 4 and the AI is absolutely savage there and  will rape you in groups, it hurts...   You might want to get the expansions for the game, they add a lot of structures and gameplay mechanics. "

I don't know if this was covered but he said he bought Civ 3, and to my knowledge Civ 3 does not have worldbuilder, or am I talking bullshit?  
Civ 4 Is Brilliant, Oldschool you should get it, And it's expansions, Just One More Turn!!! 
And yeah, It is cheating :) Who said Cheaters never prosper :)  "

" @Red12b: Yep you are totally right there, I mixed up 3 and 4. "

This is entirely your fault for buying used games (which is as bad as piracy) instead of Steam sales.

"

 I never said you own the data - you do own the game.  You can sell it if you choose and another person can buy it and play it.  I really don't understand how this point gets so lost.  They can make the rules all they like, but they CAN'T legally enforce them and they know it. 

 NO, oldschool. You do not own the game. 
 
If you buy software, all you buy is licences. ALWAYS. Period. 
 
Reselling licences (along with the media that contained the software) is perfectly legal. But Publishers preventing you or forbidding you from reselling your licence is ALSO LEGAL. 
 
You cannot legally claim your right to play The Orange Box when you bought a used copy of the media. You don't have that right, no matter how much you paid for the media and the copy of the software. The shop should have told you that, but they didn't.  The only reason movies have no "this cannot be resold" protection is because A) the playback devices are not equipped for such functionality B) it would cause an uproar.  If they could do it, they would. And they would be legally entitled to do it. So when you ask: Why PC games and not movies? The answer does not lie in legal issues, but solely in what the customer is used to and what they can do without getting lynched.   They can prevent licence reselling in PC software, so some do. "

This thread went to hell with unbelievable swiftness. The PC players here have entirely missed the point.  I can't believe people are still repeating the same lines about it being the store's fault or the OP's fault. The principle goes beyond his anecdote of The Orange Box. It isn't about his ignorance of DRM works either. The point he is making is that PC gaming screws customers, and that it isn't right. Everyone grasping at straws to make him look like a fool, again, is missing the point.

" This thread went to hell with unbelievable swiftness. The PC players here have entirely missed the point.  I can't believe people are still repeating the same lines about it being the store's fault or the OP's fault. The principle goes beyond his anecdote of The Orange Box. It isn't about his ignorance of DRM works either. The point he is making is that PC gaming screws customers, and that it isn't right. Everyone grasping at straws to make him look like a fool, again, is missing the point. "

" @Turtlemayor333 said:

" This thread went to hell with unbelievable swiftness. The PC players here have entirely missed the point.  I can't believe people are still repeating the same lines about it being the store's fault or the OP's fault. The principle goes beyond his anecdote of The Orange Box. It isn't about his ignorance of DRM works either. The point he is making is that PC gaming screws customers, and that it isn't right. Everyone grasping at straws to make him look like a fool, again, is missing the point. "

You're the one grasping at straws, not responding to any particular argument but just sprouting crap. PC gaming as a whole doesn't employ this system, so PC gaming doesn't screw customers, and many console games employ this system, but you don't generalise in the same way to say console gaming screws customers. Get over yourself, get some real arguments, and argue specific points, not your generalisations. 2 out of 3 games he got worked fine, how is PC gaming screwing customers? You think it's hard to find console games that screw you over? Hmm, let's see, did you buy Madden 09? No? Well I hear it's pretty popular anyway. Guess what, you can't play it online anymore, because EA wants to force you to purchase their new games. Good luck reselling it. Plenty of other games work like that. And there are plenty of ways PC gaming adds value that makes up for the inability to resell. Ie, as mentioned tons of times already, you get games cheaper at launch as a rule, and prices drop swiftly, while The Orange Box in particular has a fuckton of new content both created from users and Valve that is not seen in the console versions. "

If those were the posts you wanted to address then that is what you should have said as opposed to making generalisations like "pc gaming screws customers" and "pc gamers missed the point" based on an isolated event (which is the store's fault) you now call a principle.

" @Turtlemayor333:   Don't bother with that guy. Trust me. "

" @VWGTI said:

" @Turtlemayor333:   Don't bother with that guy. Trust me. "

Sure, you're a trustworthy duder, lol. How many of your posts got deleted by mods already? Nice to see you're subtler now, it must be hard for you. "

" @Al3xand3r said:

" @VWGTI said:

" @Turtlemayor333:   Don't bother with that guy. Trust me. "

Sure, you're a trustworthy duder, lol. How many of your posts got deleted by mods already? Nice to see you're subtler now, it must be hard for you. "

Thanks for proving my point. :) "

" @Turtlemayor333:   Don't bother with that guy. Trust me. "

I hate to say it but, that's not PC gamings fault, it's yours.  
 
Used PC games = nightmare. 
 
@Meowayne said:

" Why would you want to buy the Orange Box on PC if you have a perfectly functional Xbox360? "

" @VWGTI said:

" @Turtlemayor333:   Don't bother with that guy. Trust me. "

Hey, dudes that live on the internet need some attention too.  "

" @SeriouslyNow said:

" @oldschool: Umm That's how Steam products work, licenses are non-transferable and the store who sold it you should've known that.  The store's mishandling of the sale is hardly a fair reason for you shit on PC gaming and Steam with the same breath.  Sorry but the fault purely lies with the store who sold you the game. "

The store just trades in 2nd hand goods (not just games) and they wouldn't know.  I knew Steam worked that way for download games, but how would I know that for a retail game without some prior experience?  I didn't shit on PC gaming, I just pointed out why some of the practices used in the industry are not consumer friendly.  As for shitting on Steam, well, for me they are dead.  If you enjoy their product (and a lot do) then fine.  I however will never use their service. 
 

...Kay, I'll save your rep. You owe me!

" @oldschool: Umm That's how Steam products work, licenses are non-transferable and the store who sold it you should've known that.  The store's mishandling of the sale is hardly a fair reason for you shit on PC gaming and Steam with the same breath.  Sorry but the fault purely lies with the store who sold you the game. "

So out of curiosty, what is the point exactly?  That the PC industry would be in better shape if they dropped EULAs, removed all of their mechanisms for enforcing the EULAs and freely allowed second-hand sales?  If so, I respectfully disagree.  I think it would have the opposite effect (and evidently, so do the publishers). 
 
They don't care one bit about making second-hand purchasers happy - why would they?  And if you won't buy new PC games, because of a problem which you know is exclusive to second-hand PC games, that is a pretty irrational -and presumably rare- personality trait which any business is unlikely to worry too much about.
 
With regards the alleged stagnation of PC gaming, this whole EULA / DRM / Second Hand Sales issue is barely even a footnote compared to both the ease of internet piracy and the fact that you can buy a 360 for a fraction of the price of a good PC.

I don't do much PC gaming for this reason.  I am not trying to convert anyone to my belief only supporting the OP that it is a problem that I personally don't want to deal with.  First off I know that ownership of a game on any platform is unfortunately a shady area at best.  However with console games I can trade, borrow, loan, sell, buy used, or whatever I want to with it as long as I don't sell a copy I made.  With PC games unless I memorize every game that I can buy used.  Or see it for sale..then come home and research whether I can play and then go back and buy it I have no way of knowing.  I have never had that problem with console games.  Now first of all I don't buy many used games I have well over a 100 and with the exception of games from older systems I have probably only bought 2 or 3 used games over the last year compared with 6 new ones that I got from Christmas alone not to mention the ones throughout the year.  I also almost never sell my game for any reasons as I consider them a collection like my movies.  But it is nice to let people borrow a game, or rent a game, or god forbid in a bad financial situation I am pretty sure I could put food on the table for a couple of weeks by selling my games on Ebay.  I or my wife paid a lot of money for the games and the idea of owning the game shouldn't be such a foreign idea to people and I am actually shocked to see how many people support such a practice with such passion.  Now don't get me wrong I have some DLC on my 360 and I even have a couple of games from GOG that I got on the cheap but I just can't bring myself to spend $40-$60 on something I don't truly own.  I am scared that this is eventually where console gaming is heading and that scares me because in that case I will more than likely only have 1 console and only buy "must have" games.  Whether people like to admit it or not there are others out there that have the same mentallity as me.

Your reaction is hardly as milquetoast as you make it out to be, you very clearly said "  That is it.  No Steam for me, under any circumstances. " because of this one instance of inconvenience. You got your money back, you now know not to buy used Valve games, why the sudden boycott? That's what I was trying to point out; that your reaction is out of proportion to the problem.

I agree that boxed PC games in general are rather user-unfriendly, at least in contrast to console games. I mean, PC games are at a glance far more intimidating to operate than just throwing a disk in your console. System requirements, which are obviously something that PC gaming is unlikely to to get rid of any time soon, can very easily alienate those who are not very tech-savvy. The metric shit-tonnes of anti-piracy methods that exist can also be a major turn-off for most folks, and understandably so (Fuck the weird video-card names. Seriously, fuck them.), but they're kind of necessary for producing a commercially successful product in today's market. PC games would be ridiculously easy to pirate without the systems that are currently employed, and not being able to resell my PC games is a small price to pay for their continued manufacture.
 
Steam, on the other hand, is about as user-friendly as services come. You buy a game, you install it and you play it. All this without so much as having to place a foot outside, and some of the offers on there are just silly. If you haven't installed the Steam client by now I really recommend it. It is completely free, non-invasive and even makes for a decent free communication platform if you have a few friends who also use the service.

Doesn't steam support have a policy so if a cd key is invalid, you can send them a picture of it and they will fix the problem?

Wow that really sucks. I haven't bought a PC game second hand for a while now but I might have made the same mistake. On a related note: I was reading my instruction manuals for some of my games and got to the fine print, turns out not only do you not "own" the game (only a license to play said game on your hardware), it's also actually illegal to transfer that license to anybody else for money. In essence, that means it's illegal to sell your used copy of a PS3/360 game to a store. Totally ridiculous. I hope they never choose to crack down on that like Steam has....

" Doesn't steam support have a policy so if a cd key is invalid, you can send them a picture of it and they will fix the problem? "

" @oldschool: I'm sorry but this is completely your fault. First of all everyone knows used PC games are a bad idea to buy due to CD keys. I wouldn't touch a used PC game that is any newer than almost 10 years. Second of all Steam offers the best deals for PC games on the planet, BY FAR. The Orange Box can be had for at only $20 at times and, hell, they were even selling TF2 at one point for a dollar or so. Fact is that Steam presents a much better form of digital game distribution that any other one so far, both price wise (where it tends to have prices FAR below retail) and distribution wise. Either you're with Steam or you're against digital game distribution as a whole. "

I had the exact same thing with a copy of Spore I bought recently

Just so we are all clear, I got my refund today and I gave the owner a little education that I have received myself.  I am glad this happened as I took a look closely at a couple of games I have been thinking about and one is now definitely off my purchase list, Total War Empires, as that is tied to Steam.  I am sure it is a good game and I would enjoy it, but their are plenty of good RTS that I can enjoy. 
 
@IcySandman said:

" @oldschool: Just saying to help with Steam, they do have pretty nice sales every once in a while to get games at cheap prices.. "

" Wow that really sucks. I haven't bought a PC game second hand for a while now but I might have made the same mistake. On a related note: I was reading my instruction manuals for some of my games and got to the fine print, turns out not only do you not "own" the game (only a license to play said game on your hardware), it's also actually illegal to transfer that license to anybody else for money. In essence, that means it's illegal to sell your used copy of a PS3/360 game to a store. Totally ridiculous. I hope they never choose to crack down on that like Steam has.... "

" Your reaction is hardly as milquetoast as you make it out to be, you very clearly said "  That is it.  No Steam for me, under any circumstances. " because of this one instance of inconvenience. You got your money back, you now know not to buy used Valve games, why the sudden boycott? That's what I was trying to point out; that your reaction is out of proportion to the problem. "

I don't like Steams practises and I won't support them, or anyone else who does the same thing (except as I pointed out above about the very cheap games).  If you have no standards then that is your issue.  I am likely to end my participation in my own thread here, by saying that PC users are the worst forum members I have ever encountered.  I trust that not every PC user is not as up themselves as those I have encountered.  I would like to think so.  The ones I know in real life are a lot better and far more open minded and reasonable. "