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AnotherDuder

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Let's have an intellectual conversation GB! (About utopias :D)

Alright,so you have probably already heard about utopia. Not the game,not the book,not the movie and not...Something else. No,i'm talking about utopia as an idea. So,basically utopia is world peace everything is great blah,blah,blah. You know all that. Now,the easiest way to do it would be to unite the entire world,however its obvious why this is just fucking redicilous. Its not because of different cultures,we have that in today's countries (Russia,for example) but who would rule,and what langauge would we speak?
 
So,the speech problem could be solved by using world langauges. Sure,there already is Esperanto which no one uses,but in a situation like this,they'd be forced to learn it. Or maybe we would split into different regions,and then we could talk like that. Sure,that solves the langauge problem,but what about the rulers of this prototype utopian state (lets call it Pangea)? Sure,we could solve it the same as the langauge problem,and split everything in regions. Sure,it works for the US why wouldn't it work for Pangea? Because,just like in US it would require a president/emperor/king/prime-minister/etc,and since humans would,of course,have different opinions it would all end in a worldwide war,except in this case,it wouldn't be a war,but a riot,which would be even worse because this means that there is no one to send orders to those rioting,and this would mean a lot of dead civilians. But the utopian idea does require no goverment.
 
In other words-anarchy! No,anarchy doesn't have to bad, but it sure as hell wouldn't work. Without goverment there is no police,without police there is no law and without law its not a state its no man's land,that would only end in something like NDH (Nezavisna Država Hrvatska. Can't blame me for promoting my country's history ;)),which was a lawless state where people could kill each other without any consequence. A utopian state would became dfeunct in weeks,maybe even days. 
 
 
 Discuss :P

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AnotherDuder

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Edited By AnotherDuder

Alright,so you have probably already heard about utopia. Not the game,not the book,not the movie and not...Something else. No,i'm talking about utopia as an idea. So,basically utopia is world peace everything is great blah,blah,blah. You know all that. Now,the easiest way to do it would be to unite the entire world,however its obvious why this is just fucking redicilous. Its not because of different cultures,we have that in today's countries (Russia,for example) but who would rule,and what langauge would we speak?
 
So,the speech problem could be solved by using world langauges. Sure,there already is Esperanto which no one uses,but in a situation like this,they'd be forced to learn it. Or maybe we would split into different regions,and then we could talk like that. Sure,that solves the langauge problem,but what about the rulers of this prototype utopian state (lets call it Pangea)? Sure,we could solve it the same as the langauge problem,and split everything in regions. Sure,it works for the US why wouldn't it work for Pangea? Because,just like in US it would require a president/emperor/king/prime-minister/etc,and since humans would,of course,have different opinions it would all end in a worldwide war,except in this case,it wouldn't be a war,but a riot,which would be even worse because this means that there is no one to send orders to those rioting,and this would mean a lot of dead civilians. But the utopian idea does require no goverment.
 
In other words-anarchy! No,anarchy doesn't have to bad, but it sure as hell wouldn't work. Without goverment there is no police,without police there is no law and without law its not a state its no man's land,that would only end in something like NDH (Nezavisna Država Hrvatska. Can't blame me for promoting my country's history ;)),which was a lawless state where people could kill each other without any consequence. A utopian state would became dfeunct in weeks,maybe even days. 
 
 
 Discuss :P

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McGhee

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Edited By McGhee

Have you ever read Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson? 
 
The book shows a decent portayal of an anarcho-capitalist society. There is no "law of the land", but there are zones owned and run by different corporations or franchizes. Let's say you want to live in a place that is super religious and conservative, you could become a citizen of such a community. Or if you wanted to live by your own law you could acquire your own property and protect yourself, or you could pay a security service which acts like the police to do it for you. Your success in such a society would greatly depend on your reputation. You would have a sort of rating to your name. People could check you out and see if you are cool and if they want to do business with you. This system would be a way of keeping check on all the assholes in the world without the need of a police state. This kind of world could become brutal in many ways, but I would prefer it to an all powerful one world government forcing people to speak Esperanto lol, pay taxes, and follow all the bullshit rules that would eventually take hold and start eating away at the people's freedom and individuality like a cancer.
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SeriouslyNow

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@McGhee_the_Insomniac:
You mean the Philes?  Stephenson lifted that stuff straight from Gibson in his Sprawl and Bridge series of books with his featuring the Panther Moderns, Freeside and other such groups.  That said, Snow Crash is an awesome read nonetheless, Stephenson is a brilliant writer.  I personally recommend The Diamond Age for a better picture of what future societies may become, it's less post apocalyptic (in the case of Snow Crash, Economic Apocalypse leading to societal breakdown) and it continues where Snow Crash leaves off some 80 years afterwards.  In The Diamond Age America and the developed world takes on a Neo Victorian concept of nation states (still calling them Philes) but specifically with elected ruling families and social mores all selected by design so that society has a structure to prevent the mess that had happened in the lead up to and subsequent fall of America as it tried to rebuild during Snow Crash.   Snow Crash is more dystopic while The Diamond Age is still rather dystopic but hints at a potential utopia due to it's key plot element of subatomic matter generators which can build practically anything from junk matter.  In Diamond Age the essentials of food and clothing are essentially free to everyone, but what delineates the haves from the have-nots is that those who can afford to spend money get people to make things for them as opposed to using matter generator machines themselves.
 
Interestingly enough, Snow Crash and its virtual reality environment "The Street" was the one the key proponents of MMO worlds such as Second Life and it was a really clear indication of how 3D people were going to be conveyed and utilised in what are now current forms of online socialisation, particularly in regards to the word Avatar and the way gestures and humanised animation would be used to enhance interaction.
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AnotherDuder

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Edited By AnotherDuder

 @McGhee_the_Insomniac: That is pretty damn genius,but that would just mean we would still get states,except owned by one dude. I'll loo kfor the book on eBay or Amazon. Thanks duder :)! 
 
@SeriouslyNow:
My book library will get too big soon x( 

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McGhee

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Edited By McGhee

@SeriouslyNow:

I used Snow Crash as an example. He did not create the idea of such a society and neither did Gibson. 
 
And I have read The Diamond Age. Yes, you would think that having replicator-like nano machines that could provide food and essentials any time would lead to a perfect world but in the book it hardly did. Nell had a horrible life as a child and later a full out war started. 
 
The difference between the way things were in Snow Crash and The Diamond Age is that in The Diamond Age power has once again shifted out of the middle class. You have the super rich and powerful Neo-Victorians floating in their cities and you have the people like Nell living in the gutter. In Snow Crash, even though things may have been rougher and more Wild West, there was a more even playing feild. Recall how Hiro was a citizen of Mr. Lee's Greater Hong Kong and the benifits that he gained from that, but in The Diamond Age one couldn't so easily become a part of Neo-Victoria. 
 
As far as the idea of the Metaverse goes, I'm still looking for a good real life application of the idea, but Second Life is just horrible. It's laggy to the point of being unusable, the controls and interface are clunky as hell, and it looks like shit. The makers of Second Life could learn a lot by looking at videogame development, but I've heard that they get pissed if you equate Second Life with a "mere game". lol Gimme a break.

 

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Xeiphyer

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Edited By Xeiphyer

I think the idea of a utopia can never become more than just an idea. People are far too imperfect to ever be able to live in perfect harmony with each other, theres always going to be people that want more than what they have and are willing to hurt other people in some way to get it.
 
I think the internet is a good example of this impossibility since its a microcosm of society (Though really, its not very micro). People's true nature is to be self serving assholes. So a utopia is unlikely. But I guess at the end of the day nobody really knows... Its impossible to know or understand all the variables, maybe a utopia is possible.

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Designer0

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i wish creating a utopia was as easy in real life as it is in Civilization 5.
I also wish it was harder in civ 5, its to easy and breaks the game.
also Gandi is imba.

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actionTACO

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i want to live in libertopia so that being a white, upper-middle class male becomes even more awesome.

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SeriouslyNow

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@McGhee_the_Insomniac:  Wow. OK.  I don't think you've seen Second Life in a long time.  How does realtime volumetric shadows, SSAO and proper realtime dynamic lighting sound?   What about fully interactive Havok physics?  All of that stuff is in SL right now.  In many ways it's actually more advanced than a lot of top rated gaming engines.  Mesh importing is currently being tested too so in the future Avatars and the surroundings will be as detailed as possible with included cloth dynamics and such.  Soon, weighted dynamics for Avatar animations will be coming too.  Right now it's only being exploited so female breasts will bounce, but eventually it will be able to be applied to all body parts.  Second Life is a social environment and is used for lots of different reasons from basic socialisation right through to Tertiary Education.  Many universities have campuses in SL and some even offer full degrees in world.  Sure, it's got its issues too with Furries, Griefing and Lag but these things reflect human and Internet limitations which are apparent anywhere in the world where people socialise en masse using technology.
 

 Just mucking about with Shadows and Dynamic Lighting - Not edited in any way.
 Just mucking about with Shadows and Dynamic Lighting - Not edited in any way.

 

I know you used Snow Crash as an example and I wasn't criticising your choice I was only explaining the context as I read it.  In Snow Crash society is falling in on itself because people as a mass still want others to lead them and find that they can't seem to move forward with any sense of sanity or safety.  A key element of the book is that how fucking insane and shallow everyone is.  There is a still a governing body (infact there are many) and there is still a lot of corruption and there are still people being fucked over for a dollar (case in point; The Aluet).  Neither book's fictional reality is Utopic and Snow Crash is certainly a lot more Dystopic by comparison.  In the Diamond Age it's certainly true that Nell and her kind are the underclass, but at least that underclass is no longer starving and dying.  Though they have little chance of rising above their station, they are not dying for lack of food, technology or clothing.  By comparison, many equivalently classed people in Snow Crash who can't enter Philes of any description due to lack of skills (due to lack of education) or wealth are left to roam the streets and eke out an existence on the trash which society leaves behind.
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@AnotherDuder:  
 
Nationalism will have to be shed. North Carolina doesn't have beef with Wisconsin, because they identify with each other as being parts of the same group (The United States). There are a few disputed border areas in the southwest, but for the most part, all the states worry about problems from "outside" entities, rather than other states.  
 
Global identity will be the future. In Europe, nationalism is slowly being eroded as the people start to think of themselves as being "european" rather than from their individual country. The transportatoin networking that allows residents to partake in the culture of multiple european regions within days or weeks helps. The unified currency binds them as well. A shared history. Europe isn't bickering nearly as much as it used to (i.e a LOT). 
 
A lot of conflict resolution can be had when the people of the world start seeing themselves as members of a single entity, the human race. This can only come about through increased education to expand the horizons of each person to understand their place in the world, and the human experience of others. Maybe then we won't just be "white devils" but tangible sympathic people to certain groups who have beef with the US. Note that there were virtually no schools in the entire country of Afganistan, only madrasas with the Taliban's incredibly narrow perspective of the world. Of course, education isn't panacea for world peace. Bush had an Ivy league education before he decided to go start a war (Al-qaeda started the war with Afganistan, but the US started the war with Iraq).   
 
Nevertheless, great gains are to be had through education. It not only increases productivity, and innovation, which are two obvious economic impacts of education; but education can expand perspective and understanding. In time, education can reduce conflicts of ignorance, leaving us to deal only with conflicts of malice or necessity. 
 
Necessity will always be with us, even when we have more resources we will develop new areas of scarcity to bicker over. These issues will much longer to address because they come from numerous areas. Hopefully in time humanity will obtain the enlightment needed to move past these things. It's not really about having the perfect structure or government, because conflict is fundamentally between people. You can't build a perfect society until you fill it with perfect people.
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AnotherDuder

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Edited By AnotherDuder
@kelbear said:
" @AnotherDuder:    You can't build a perfect society until you fill it with perfect people. "
And that's where the problem lies. There aren't many perfect people. The reason EU is actually probably going to make Europe into a country is because people trust them as they aren't some supreme global identity,but they are our Europan "bros" if you will. If say,UN would try it,and they are the only global organization capable of doing it currently,and not everyone would trust them. It sucks,and that's why utopia is just an idea. @Xeiphyer: said it perfectly.
 
@SuperSambo:
If you have nothing constructive to say please leave. I will now report you to the auothorities as this is mindless spam
 
@actionTACO:
XD