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TaliciaDragonsong

Back to red, because fuck it.

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Graphics mean nothing, they shouldn't.

At least in most cases they shouldn't.
 
Some games have a very strong engine and can come up with the most lifelike and realistic cutscenes ingame like on demand.
Look at Mass Effect, there's a lot of choices in that game and none will have you question the visual flair you experience.
It totally fits too, that's half the idea, it's one big streaming story.
 
So why do you punks even get the guts to complain about other games?
For most of you gaming started way back when you were looking at a couple of pixels.
Hell you were jumping your way through Mario World, sidescrolling in Ganbare Goemon or playing insanely long RPG's.
Why do you feel entitled to lifelike graphics? Does the gameplay not satisfy you anymore?
Do graphics really matter if you're into a game?
 
I don't think there's much ways to prove yourself to be a real gamer...
But if you hate on games because they're on the Wii, or of an older generation or such, you need to shut up and keep your opinion to yourself.
Just because you dislike the graphic quality/style/whatever does NOT make it a bad game.
Maybe for you it does, but seriously, we spend years playing previous generations and now it suddenly hurts your eyes? Boo,fucking, hoo.
 
Go make a topic about it, go hate on me.
I'll be playing on my gamecube meanwhile, you know, doing what a gamer should do.

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TaliciaDragonsong

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At least in most cases they shouldn't.
 
Some games have a very strong engine and can come up with the most lifelike and realistic cutscenes ingame like on demand.
Look at Mass Effect, there's a lot of choices in that game and none will have you question the visual flair you experience.
It totally fits too, that's half the idea, it's one big streaming story.
 
So why do you punks even get the guts to complain about other games?
For most of you gaming started way back when you were looking at a couple of pixels.
Hell you were jumping your way through Mario World, sidescrolling in Ganbare Goemon or playing insanely long RPG's.
Why do you feel entitled to lifelike graphics? Does the gameplay not satisfy you anymore?
Do graphics really matter if you're into a game?
 
I don't think there's much ways to prove yourself to be a real gamer...
But if you hate on games because they're on the Wii, or of an older generation or such, you need to shut up and keep your opinion to yourself.
Just because you dislike the graphic quality/style/whatever does NOT make it a bad game.
Maybe for you it does, but seriously, we spend years playing previous generations and now it suddenly hurts your eyes? Boo,fucking, hoo.
 
Go make a topic about it, go hate on me.
I'll be playing on my gamecube meanwhile, you know, doing what a gamer should do.

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buwchbach

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Edited By buwchbach

I like pretty graphics and I always look foreword to new technological advancements, but as long as the presentation is reasonable then I do not mind. 
I really actually don't get it when somebody can't go back, its the quality of the game that matters. 
I think graphics are important though, I think developers should always try to make their games pretty, I would be put off if there is absolutely no effort put into the graphical presentation in a game. 
Nintendo are a really good example of making the most of slightly less powerful technology, there is stuff on the Wii like Super Mario Galaxy that is statistically worse than the games on the Xbox 360 or the PS3 but Super Mario Galaxy 2 looks way better than some of those other games. 
Also, i love my GameCube, it is a great console.

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TaliciaDragonsong

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@buwchbach: 
Yep!
In the end its about the fun right?
And if you get your fun from looking at pretty pictures, gaming might not the best hobby!
 
Thanks for reading my ranting^^
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gamer_152

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Edited By gamer_152  Moderator

As with all mediums of entertainment what is "a good" or "a bad" game is not set in stone, it's all about peoples' opinions and the ever-advancing graphics we see in modern video games are an indication that people do care about graphics. While I personally would rather have a game with good gameplay or story than one with good graphics, the visuals of the game are part of the experience for me and while I'd encourage people who place heavier value than I do in the graphics of a video game to look at substance over style, I can't say their opinion "wrong". I believe that good graphics are part of the experience, just look at the artistic use of visuals in Limbo or the beautiful quality of the world of Crysis.
 
I also don't think the previous-generations argument works either. For most people gaming didn't start back when they were staring at a handful of pixels, the audience out there for video games has expanded vastly since then and I understand why people find it hard to deal with old-school graphics. While it may be hard to understand for those who have been with video games right from very early on in the medium's existence people become used to what they first experience within an entertainment medium. Some people don't like retro graphics for the same reason that a lot of people can't watch silent movies. All things become out-dated and this doesn't just apply to graphics either; the sound effects, narrative and gameplay of games become out-dated too.
 
Personally I'll happily play an 8-bit game like Super Mario Bros. that is well before my time and I'll always be a style over substance gamer but I believe that graphical quality has its place in video games and that no one person can declare what a gamer "should do" or what makes a "real gamer". Whether a game is bad is a subjective issue, not an objective one and even though I may disagree strongly with the opinions of those who evaluate a game heavily on it's graphics I have to grudgingly admit that they are entitled to their opinion and they are entitled to voice that opinion.

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TaliciaDragonsong

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I agree, nothing is set in stone or can be judged with a certain standard. I can understand people liking or disliking games only because of the graphics, that's their shortsighted problem, but what I don't understand is all the hate. People go to great lengths to kill off others fun.
Go enjoy Crysis, I'll enjoy Zelda, go play anything, I don't care. Just have fun and be nice to others!
 
And while maybe not everyone started out where I did, I'm pretty sure that's not an excuse to be such an asshole like most gamers are.
Classics are classics for a reason, people don't need to worship them, but let people be, the constant bickering.
That also goes for people complaining everything used to be better...life goes on, deal with it!
 
And that's my exact point, people pick fights over non sense and insult each other, deciding who is or isn't a real gamer.
Just, have, fun.

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gamer_152

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Edited By gamer_152  Moderator
@TaliciaDragonsong: From that point of view I strongly agree with you. It's a problem which stretches beyond video games and even outside of entertainment mediums into pretty much every aspect of everyday life; idiots trying to push their opinions in other peoples' faces, believing their opinion is far more valid than everybody else's and failing to comprehend that opinions are something subjective.
 
Sadly this is a particular problem on the internet due to anonymity making it easier and more comfortable for people to ram their jackass rants down other peoples' throats. It's the reason why I was so happy to be free of the Gamespot forums and why I pay little attention to YouTube comments now. On the larger scale it's a serious problem and one I don't believe we can ever truly solve. Idiots will be idiots, all we can do is ignore them and try to get on with life.
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EVHKwick

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Edited By EVHKwick

I pretty much agree with you on every point, but I do have some tendency to nit-pick about the appearance of a game. A really good example is P3 and P4 (especially because most of the people on these boards have seen one of the two games thanks to the ER.) P4 is a game that graphically doesn't hold up against others made at the same time of its release, but the graphics are consistent, and the game has a wonderful style to it. And that's really all that I ask; make the game aesthetically pleasing, not engine-defining. The graphics in a game will bother me when there are significant drops of quality in certain areas when the rest of the game looks fine. When a game can't be consistent, then the appearance will bother me. Of course, we don't see this probably with older games because it's really a newer problem that exists with 3D.
 
Other than that, I could care how a game looked. I really enjoy the Trauma Center games on the Wii, and stacked against most games, those titles looks like garbage. But it's about me cutting open his or her yellow intestines looking for tumors, right? Right.

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TaliciaDragonsong

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@Gamer_152: 
That might be so, but there's as much idiotic sense in saying "ah well, it's the internet" as their own behaviour is.
I know mods can't be everywhere and ban people for the slightest, but still it does just suck.
Ruining fun for the sake of ruining fun.
Which to me, is not gamer like at all. 
We're all friends and play co op together right? (and shoot each other in deathmatch without question later on...)
 
@hack745:
Oh I won't deny, graphics are very nice, its just that its really an extra for me.
The way a game makes you feel, the way it plays or just its entire presentation can be just as powerful as graphics alone are made out to be.
I was playing Zelda: The Wind Waker at my dads house when I was younger, and when he walked in he seriously thought they made a Zelda cartoon.
I couldn't see it at that time, but when my lil brother played and I (was forced to) watch, it really did fitted together seamlessy and something magically was conjured by Nintendo once again.
 
All the warshooters in the world with their realistic graphics can't go up against that...
I rather tell people my grand adventures in the cell shaded zelda universe then explaining an interactive war movie...
But that's just me!
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gamer_152

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Edited By gamer_152  Moderator
@TaliciaDragonsong:  I'm not at all saying this is a problem we should ignore simply because it is something that we have come to expect on the internet. The internet is intended to be a method for worldwide communication between all peoples and it won't live up to its potential until this problem and the other issues associated with the anonymity the internet provides can be dealt with. However, there is no sense in paying the kind of people who force their opinions on others any attention, we don't want to listen to them and they sure as hell won't begin listening to us.
 
I do wish it were true that all gamers could be friends and that we play and discuss with each other with a shared level of mutual respect, however this is just not the case. Perhaps it is a problem that will never be solved.
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sparky_buzzsaw

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Edited By sparky_buzzsaw

While I agree in general principle, sometimes changing the art design of a game can severely affect not just the aesthetics, but the very way the game feels and is designed.  Take the Gabriel Knight series, which underwent drastic visual changes by the end of the series.  Now, granted, it was the gameplay mechanic changes that ultimately ended up hurting that series, but the game's visual style took a distinctive change that I'd argue ultimately affected the series to a negative degree.  King's Quest: Mask of Eternity is another fine example of a game where visual and gameplay changes together made for a pretty craptacular sequel.  
 
Of course, in both those cases, the games would have turned out much better had there just been visual changes.  But still, comparing the visual styles of the older games of these games and their eventual sequels makes me realize that the art direction and styles of games can ultimately mean quite a bit to a game's longevity.

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TaliciaDragonsong

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@Gamer_152: 
Didn't mean to target you, I meant in a general sense.
It's sameish with violence on the streets etc, you really wanna hire some big muscled dudes who can protect the old ladies and lil girls, but alas :/
Keep on dreaming I suppose xD
 
@Sparky_Buzzsaw:
Good point, but a bad game's a bad game.
Sometimes developers need to play around with everything because their series don't feel right to them.
Look at Daikatana , lots of talk and promises...
Or lets say Duke Nukem, also changed in graphics and gameplay, not always for the best...
I like to think that we all, including dev's, live and learn xD
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Edited By mazik765

When it comes to visuals art style > graphics every day of the week. If you've got planned and boring art direction, it doesn't matter how much hard ware you've got pushing it, it's still going to look like garbage. On the flip side, if you have great art direction you can make a great looking game with very little power.

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xxizzypop

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Edited By xxizzypop

So I came in with the hope of bringing a fresh opinion to light, but my position is pretty well covered already. While graphics don't necessarily make or break a game, a beautiful looking game isn't usually a bad thing, provided that the gameplay doesn't suffer for it. 
 
One of the better examples, in my mind, have already been brought up with the Persona series. While not necessarily the most beautiful of games to have been created, it is graphically consistent and delivers a wonderful experience to the player through the combat system, story and other game mechanics. 
 
One the other side of the spectrum, sometimes a gorgeous looking game can help to make up for some less than stellar gameplay. I remember that I was having a hard time enjoying my first playthrough of FarCry 2 until I hit a point where I just slowed down and started gawking at the world and the lighting effects. 
 
I can most certainly understand where you're coming from though. There are some youngins in the family tree that seem to not appreciate older games as they've been raised on sharp looking polygons, refusing to play anything before the last-gen of gaming. Personally, I still like sitting down with the 2600 every now and then or digging through my stash of old computer games. 

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TaliciaDragonsong

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@xxizzypop: 
Exactly, you don't NEED to play oldies, just don't be such a lil bitch about it! (MY EYES HURT OH NO).
 
Sometimes when you stop and stand still, or watch someone else play, only then you can see the beauty of a game.
Like Windwaker on the NGC, playing it sure fun, but watching it is like a cartoon!
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Edited By ahoodedfigure

I used to care a lot more about graphics when I was growing up, mainly because graphics were improving by orders of magnitude that don't really compare to now (now it's like, more lifelike eyeballs or whatever, when for me it was the difference between being a single blob of pixels and HAVING eyeballs). Graphics are pretty, and if they fit the game all the better.
 
You don't need to go retro to get stuff that doesn't concentrate on polygons, but appreciating gameplay and graphics/mechanics synergy means that folks that would have ignored primitive-looking games from olden times might get up the nerve to try stuff out.  Games in general, I think, ARE getting better; they're much more user-friendly than when I was a kid, so it's less about struggling with the game and more about exploring it.  It's just that, yeah, graphics drive the industry forward, and it's easy to go all left-brained and look at the numbers, rather than how the graphics actually serve the game.

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TaliciaDragonsong

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@ahoodedfigure: 
I agree, the jumps we make nowaday are nothing compared to when we jumped from 2d to 3d.
Somewhere along those lines people lost the focus on gameplay and focussed on gfx.
Which reminds me, I have not heard a single word about Dead Rising 2: Case Zero's graphics, while they are pretty damn horrid if you'd look at them with a clean mind.
Maybe people are too busy having fun? As they should? I hope so!
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Edited By ahoodedfigure
@TaliciaDragonsong:  In my opinion you hit on JUST when the problem started: the change from 2D to 3D.  Having grown up during that, I was sort of shocked that a lot of the old franchises, that were doing perfectly fine in 2D, felt forced to switch to 3D.
 
I dunno if you're familiar with Black Isle and Bioware, but old Black Isle caved, in part, because they were working so hard on getting a 3D engine together that they overshot their momentum and what is thought to be a pretty buggy game got released, killing the good will they'd earned and *poof* gone.  There was also a tendency to make 3D models rendered in 2D sprites, and they managed to look worse than before, while not adding anything to the games they were in.
 
I think some games would be IMPOSSIBLE without 3D, but some games definitely didn't need to focus so heavily on that.  I think there's a sort of blind spot in games as a result, with a lot of really crumby games, both graphically and with gameplay (and camera controls are STILL a problem, despite those early 3D games paving their way to the stuff we have now).  
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TaliciaDragonsong

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As I said, the focus was more on the graphics (which would include the jump to 3d since that had better graphics they believed) and less on the design or the gameplay.
Sure a lot of games need 3d but most of the popular games on the xbox arcade etc are 2d sidescrollers or 2.5d.
Or look at Metroid Other M for example.
There's ways to do this right, but I feel like all games are like this:
"Ok so, we tape a chainsaw to a stick, now that's cool"
"Ok, but what else?"
"What do you mean what else? Put some graphics on it, a half assed story about revenge and multiplayer! They will love it!"
"Good plan boss."
 
Games used to be bundle of ideas, nowadays its one idea they take and build a pretty frame around.

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Yummylee

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Edited By Yummylee

I agree! Boob physics on the other hand..

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TaliciaDragonsong

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@Abyssfull: 
Ain't you being typical!
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Yummylee

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Edited By Yummylee
@TaliciaDragonsong: 
A noooor! I'm so predictably predictable X) 
 
But more towards the topic I do agree - for the most part. I'm not one who totally demands high end graphics that need to melt my retinas but some games can really look rather ugly and can potentially pull the game down. Saints Row 2, for example, is one of my all time favourite games. Though its graphics are ironically worser off than the original Saints Row. O.o Which did lessen it somewhat and most importantly found it really hard to stick with a custom character because of how bad they'd look due to the cheap graphics and animations. 
 
All n all... I'm not fussy over graphics, but there's still a modest standard I expect.
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TaliciaDragonsong

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@Abyssfull: 
See, there's some good things in that brain of yours!
 
And really? I think SR2 looks amazing, the home made characters look great and are half the game since they look and act so well in the cutscenes.
See my exact point come into play here? OPINIONS PEOPLE.
We're so far into the tech that people are blind when it suits them.
GTA IV might look way better then SR2, but I enjoyed SR2 way more, is that a problem of graphics, gameplay or personal taste?