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Destiny 2: Forsaken Review

Brad runs through the ups and downs of Destiny 2's year-two expansion.

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Destiny 2: Forsaken Review

4
  • PS4

This big year-two expansion irons out most of Destiny 2's wrinkles and offers some of the most mysterious, enjoyable content the series has seen so far.

Editor's note: This review was originally conducted in a podcast format, available as a video above or right here as an audio file. A summary of the review follows. Note that after this review was recorded, Bungie announced that it would begin including the previous DLC releases, Curse of Osiris and Warmind, in the Forsaken package on October 16.

It's becoming a tradition for Bungie to release a Destiny game with some persistent issues, then hammer those issues out into a smoother, more pleasant shape with a major expansion a year later. Just like The Taken King made the original Destiny a more interesting, rewarding game, Destiny 2's big 40 dollar add-on Forsaken has done the same for the sequel with dramatic improvements to loot and character progression, a more intriguing story and set of new areas to explore, and a major new multiplayer mode. Most importantly, all these pieces fit together more seamlessly than they did in the release game. It's easily the best Destiny 2 has been so far.

The Dreaming City is the most exotic, secret-laden zone in Destiny so far.
The Dreaming City is the most exotic, secret-laden zone in Destiny so far.

Forsaken picks up the story of the Awoken, the wispy blue space people who live in the asteroid belt, after they were all but annihilated by Oryx's Taken fleet in the previous game. The Queen's whereabouts are still unknown, sniveling Prince Uldren is back and more deranged than usual, and he's backed up by a distinctive rogues' gallery of especially nasty monsters, drawn from a new enemy faction, who you'll spend much of the campaign facing down in unique boss fights. The Forsaken campaign spans two new patrol zones: the ramshackle Tangled Shore, a thieves' den made up of a bunch of lashed-together floating rocks, and the Dreaming City, the mystical ancestral home of the Awoken which has a distinctly fantasy-like bent and houses the most secrets and side activities of any Destiny zone in recent memory.

The flow and design of the campaign's story missions take a lot of creative liberties with Destiny's mechanics and structure, resulting in what's probably the most consistently surprising and entertaining chunk of story content Bungie has created to date. Forsaken dispenses with wisecracking robotic series regular Cayde-6 early on in a dramatic fashion, but the game doesn't get much lasting material out of his death. The more enduring storyline around the Awoken's quest to retake their homeland works much better, and weaves through every bit of the content here, from the initial campaign through post-story world missions, the new (and very tough) raid, and even on into the weekly loot grind, which now revolves around a bizarre metanarrative in which the characters themselves are trying to understand why they're repeating the same actions over and over again from week to week. There's ethereal Awoken magic and strange goings-on at every step. The story content isn't just wide-ranging and weird, there's also just a huge amount of it, certainly the most Destiny has packed into an expansion to date.

Due to a number of design missteps, Destiny 2 came and went for a lot of people. Thankfully, the changes Forsaken makes under the hood are what really prop up all the new story stuff and give the game more staying power. Bungie has made loot meaningful again by... making it more like the loot in the first game, which is to say every weapon and piece of armor once again comes with a random set of perks. So if you get three of the same scout rifle, they'll all have different firing characteristics that make it worth comparing them and picking your favorite, instead of just trashing all your duplicates. There are dramatically more "powerful gear" quests day to day and week to week that give you chances to get better items. The new collections interface lets you keep track of and reacquire all the old gear, cosmetic items, shaders and so forth you've found so far. There are even new ways to earn in-game currency for cosmetic items that you would have just paid real money for back at launch. It's just a tighter, friendlier game in nearly every way.

If you ever wished they'd cram a little MOBA into Destiny, Gambit is for you.
If you ever wished they'd cram a little MOBA into Destiny, Gambit is for you.

The new four-on-four Gambit multiplayer mode mostly does a great job of rounding out the usual assortment of strikes, Crucible, weekly challenges and so forth. Taking a few MOBA cues, it tasks your team with killing enemies faster than another team who's playing on a separate map, with both teams racing to hit a quota that spawns a boss you have to kill first to win the round. Where Gambit gets interesting--and wildly exhilarating or infuriating, depending on which side you land on--is that your team has limited opportunities for one player to invade and kill the other team, which can massively hamper their progress toward spawning their boss (or will just heal the boss, if it's already out). There's the potential for massive swings in match momentum, depending on how you invade or get invaded, how you strategically use your super ability to clear enemies quickly or wipe the other team, and so forth. You can pretty much singlehandedly gain an insurmountable lead for your team or stage an improbable comeback with a crucial play. Gambit is full of extreme highs and lows, though due to the 20 to 30 minutes it takes to finish a match and its reliance on competent teamwork, it tends toward lows in the same way MOBAs do. Feeling like you just wasted half an hour due to a boneheaded team or one ruinous invasion from the other side is awfully demoralizing. Gambit is best played with a squad of friends who know what they're doing.

At its heart, Destiny 2 is still of course a loot-based game, with all the inherent drawbacks of a genre that functions largely like a capsule machine. You might play it compulsively, or stay up late trying to grind out weekly activities before you lose them. You might spend an evening grinding out Crucible kills only to get three equivalent sets of the same boots. But at least the structure is now intelligently designed, and the content is creative and varied enough, that it's actually worth coming back to the game even after you've finished the story. Bungie has clearly learned its lesson after Destiny 2's missteps, and finally found a winning formula that sets up a brighter, more enduring future for the franchise. Hopefully this time that lesson will stick.

Brad Shoemaker on Google+

56 Comments

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Springfart

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that wizard came from the moon

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hassun

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This is a surprise. Thanks Brad!

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doncabesa

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Forsaken was good enough that I did the annual pass, can't wait for the Black Armory.

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alternate

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you forgot to link the audio file.

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forebodingburger

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Gambit has quickly become one of my favorite multiplayer bits of Destiny, and this is coming from someone who hates MOBAs. So if the term MOBA makes you feel a bit nauseous, don't worry about it here, gambit rules anyway

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section09

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Humanity

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Will the lesson stick? Depends which perspective you’re looking at it from. Will consumers learn that Bungie is taking them for a ride by releasing an expansion for $40 down the road that fixes all the shortcomings of their lacking base product, or will Bungie learn to release feature complete Destiny’s instead of fixing things in future DLC’s and forcing players to basically pay full price for a “starter pack”?

In both cases the answer is probably no.

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HotSaucerman

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These have been fantastic. Listening to these on the bus is a great way to consume reviews, and the conversational tone is what I come to GB for. Rad.

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jred250

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Man, I love this video review format.

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dafdiego777

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Very fair and accurate review. Shout out to the Goldman Shaxxx guys, looking forward to another fun year of raiding with everyone.

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hassun

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Edited By hassun

@section09: @humanity: I do feel like I never want to hear the "Oh it was bad before but here is the DLC that makes it good." line again.

Especially when the supposedly bad original release was not treated as such by critics when it came out.

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tds418

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Edited By tds418

Not discussed much in the text review but the new raid is very good and very cool. I've done all of them except Wrath in D1 and this one is in my top 3. Fun mechanics that are fair, tough encounters that don't feel cheap. And incredible art/environment design.

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HiredN00bs

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Just a small update for the review: they're making it so that people that own the base game may purchase Forsaken for $40, and it will now include the Curse of Osiris and Warmind expansions, so there's no more requirement to buy them separately, or to purchase the $60 bundle to get content current.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2018/10/12/destiny-2-is-now-giving-away-osiris-and-warmind-when-you-buy-forsaken-by-itself/#147d7293180f

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Brad

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@humanity said:

Will the lesson stick? Depends which perspective you’re looking at it from. Will consumers learn that Bungie is taking them for a ride by releasing an expansion for $40 down the road that fixes all the shortcomings of their lacking base product, or will Bungie learn to release feature complete Destiny’s instead of fixing things in future DLC’s and forcing players to basically pay full price for a “starter pack”?

In both cases the answer is probably no.

This line of thinking is just strange to me because it assumes Bungie is intentionally releasing games with poor design decisions in an attempt to accomplish... what exactly? No developer wants to put out a game that pisses off its player base, least of all a live service game that lives and dies by audience retention. It's much more reasonable (and frankly, less conspiratorial) to assume they tried a bunch of new things they thought would make the game better, a number of them didn't work, and now they're addressing those flaws with the benefit of a year of hindsight.

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HiredN00bs

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Edited By HiredN00bs
@humanity said:

Will the lesson stick? Depends which perspective you’re looking at it from. Will consumers learn that Bungie is taking them for a ride by releasing an expansion for $40 down the road that fixes all the shortcomings of their lacking base product, or will Bungie learn to release feature complete Destiny’s instead of fixing things in future DLC’s and forcing players to basically pay full price for a “starter pack”?

In both cases the answer is probably no.

Wow, this is a really unfair take. First of all, launch Destiny 2 was critically lauded, and many enjoyed their time with it and moved on. The die-hard Destiny players eventually revolted because the investment game was woefully under-served for those who played more religiously. What followed was a series of quality-of-life (QoL) updates to address those complaints; these updates started slowly, but accelerated, culminating at the launch of Forsaken. All of those QoL changes and new PvP maps were pushed to all base game players. So what Bungie has demonstrated is that they will continue to develop and refine and support their games for all players, expansion or not.

You can always wait further down the line and get more content for less cost--this is true of almost every type of video game. A large part of the appeal of live games are their currency, and playing them with a community. The way you've framed this just misses that entirely.

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Hestilllives19

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@tds418 It's sad that so many people passed on Rise of Iron and didn't get to experience Wrath of the Machine. I think arguments can be made that it is still the best of Destiny's Raid's to date.

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Darknorth

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Brad's really enjoying this Foreskin expansion.

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Humanity

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Edited By Humanity

@brad: I completely agree but in all fairness I think it's strange that they got just as many things wrong on the second go at it as they did during the first time, which you must admit, is odd all things considered. I'm sure that the people down in the trenches wanted this game to be the best it could be and whatever circumstances made Destiny 2 what it was at launch was probably out of their hands. That said, it was still a base game with barely anymore content than the first. The entire shader thing is a design choice that is hard to defend on any level - not a deal breaker mind you, but still a "why?" moment if I ever saw one. Both expansions before Forsaken were lackluster to put it mildly, much like the first two expansions of the first game, with Forsaken taken place of The Taken King as a big, feature rich overhaul that brings it all around.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist, and trust me when I say that I too wish all games were awesome and I'm sure the hard working coders, artists, and designers out there want that too. That said the similarities between Destiny's shortcomings and eventual road to "redemption" so to speak with the Taken King and Destiny 2 are very similar. Still no clan chat, still no basic communication tools. People can enjoy this content and I'm not taking it away from them, but at this point I do feel like they should be doing more, especially after Destiny 1 was their trial run.

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skinnyluigi

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Edited By skinnyluigi
@brad said:

This line of thinking is just strange to me because it assumes Bungie is intentionally releasing games with poor design decisions in an attempt to accomplish... what exactly? No developer wants to put out a game that pisses off its player base, least of all a live service game that lives and dies by audience retention. It's much more reasonable (and frankly, less conspiratorial) to assume they tried a bunch of new things they thought would make the game better, a number of them didn't work, and now they're addressing those flaws with the benefit of a year of hindsight.

I think its more about publishers pushing games out quickly to meet deadlines and then fixing them after the fact, the examples of which are too numerous to count this generation. I'm sure the developers don't want to put out games that feel lacking but the publishers are more than happy with this business model.

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Hestilllives19

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Edited By Hestilllives19

@humanity: Clan chat on Console or PC? Because they put Global Clan chat and local area chat in PC several months back, like back in March or so... The PC folks on Discord talk about how great it is all the time.

Update: My bad, it just came in with the July update. It's still been here for a few months though. I hear the PC guys talk about it frequently.

Since I play on PS4, I really don't think that would be a useful Console feature tbh, I feel like it would be more distracting than useful, but I get why it's really useful on PC.

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steveurkel

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Edited By steveurkel

I don't know if I can let bungie fool me another time it almost feels like thank you sir may I have another with them to get the game to a playable state. I waited until pc destiny 2 and was very underwhelmed. I still don't feel the game feels as good as older pc shooters and this is a modern game. I felt let down by max level and quit before the first 2 dlc. I almost felt suckered each time into buying into the destiny hype. Growing up playing quake and unreal and spending many years playing quake 3 and rocket arena as well as quakeworld team fortress I still don't get any impact or excitement from the feel of bungie shooters. I admit I looked into getting forsaken but I have to progress through the last 2 dlc to do so ... huge middle finger from bungie to expect us to fork out 100 bucks to continue from the shitty vanilla destiny 2 to play this "good" version. The reviews and the praise just feels like deja vu with this series.

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Dastardry

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How many times will people fall for Destiny?

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ripelivejam

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Edited By ripelivejam

@dastardry: Liking Destiny =/= falling for it. I think they know exactly what they want and what they're buying. If you don't like it personally, then don't buy it; sends the best message.

e: or conversely if you see an established pattern of this maybe wait for an expansion or complete version?

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binarygod

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Why is Brad permitted to review anything to do with Destiny? He is overly forgiving of just about anything cornering the franchise. You should not permit 'haters' or 'fanboys' of something to be the ones deciding your site's score for it. (yes, I am overstating, get over it)

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binarygod

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@dastardry: Liking Destiny =/= falling for it. I think they know exactly what they want and what they're buying. If you don't like it personally, then don't buy it; sends the best message.

e: or conversely if you see an established pattern of this maybe wait for an expansion or complete version?

It sends zero message if enough people are buying it anyway.

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MerxWorx01

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Sounds like a "new coke" versus "coke classic" situation. In the end some people just like a little more grind that the original offered, which I can't fault. At this point Destiny's development output is clear and there's no point in expecting the remarkable. Destiny epic scope is waylaid and it's DLC releases feel more like bandaids filling cracks.

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ripelivejam

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Edited By ripelivejam

@binarygod: Because they like it and live and let live? There are skeevier things to get worried about in the not very important area of games let alone the world at large, if you must get all holy crusade about it.

Destiny is a good game with some issues and questionable practices; some people still like and really enjoy it which is perfectly fine. Not going to change their minds, and you don't need to.

e: btw a lot of people, me included, really appreciate this review too.

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AV_Gamer

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Is it just me, or does the video not work?

Anyway, I got on board Destiny when the Taken King came out and a liked it a lot. With Destiny 2, I was lucky enough to play through the story mode and side quests during the free weekend on PS4 that happened a couple of months ago. If this expansion is as good as Taken King, I might give it a try down the road and buy the game.

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Eribuster

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Thanks for the review. It aligns with how I feel on Destiny 2 after playing my way in to the Dreaming City and getting the Ace of Spades.

Hello, it's me. That person that spent US$160 on Destiny 2 (that's the Ultimate Digital Deluxe Stupid editions for last year and this year). The guns feel good and reliable (something that was not the case for me when I think back on Borderlands and what little I've played of Borderlands 2), everything looks pretty and pleasing (the bio-mechanical, Giger-lite look of Warframe never fully jelled with me), and overall it is the best shooty-n-looty time of the games of this type that I've played. I'm not saying there aren't any problems (so many little and big problems), or denying that the price of admission for early adopters is at least a little out of wack. I'm just trying to say that I'm one of those that found something enjoyable to come back to with Destiny 2.

Also, I should not be trusted with sound game-buying decisions as I've spent about as much money on gacha games (FateGO). So... you could say that Destiny 2 is only for those that have horrible compulsions.

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Onemanarmyy

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Edited By Onemanarmyy

@skinnyluigi:

The added benefit is that the people who get in first will like the game alright despite it's flaws. When the improved version arrives, they are not only satisfied, but they will be thrilled about it and turn into brand ambassadors. Their feedback has been heard, Bungie has been looking at their data and the players have impacted the development of the game in that way.

In a parallel universe where the game had been given an extra 2-3 months before releasing, that first version would be well-regarded, but lack the history of the players getting something nice & then getting something that truly excites them & adresses most of the concerns they had with the decent first try. In this scenario, A bond has not been established between developer & player where they work together to make the game the best it can be.

What this all means, is that there's never a good business reason to give these kind of games the time they actually would need to release in a more complete fashion. After all, the closer you come to nailing it on the first try, the less room there is for obvious improvements. By releasing a solid base & updating it over time in future purchasable bundles, you get the chance as service to not only satisfy, but thrill the customers. While getting money out of it along the way. That's a business strategy that creates what they call a mutual admiration society.

Creating a Thrill Factor results in loyal customers who will advocate your business, reject competition, and pay higher-margin prices.

Sounds familiar?

To be clear, i don't blame them for doing this. It's good for their business. I just don't want to be a customer that has to go through this emotional rollercoaster of being happy, upset, angry, amazed & tied down to the developer while having to pay premium prices.

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Sintes

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This is great! I don't even care about Destiny, I just enjoy listening to Jeff and Brad talk about games.

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rofltobby

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is the crew gonna do the raid?

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fargofallout

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I continue to be surprised when people don't bring up the atrocious load times/menu performance in this game. It makes me wonder if it's just me (and a few other people here and there on the internet), or if it's a thing other people have more of a tolerance for. Maybe they've patched some performance issues over the last two weeks while I haven't been playing, but prior to that, I was averaging around four and a half minutes from Xbox dashboard to controlling a character on a planet, which is completely absurd.

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Edited By Humanity

@fargofallout: Initial load times are a thing I can deal with, but what upset me is that (on PS4 anyway) if I got through the intro screen, the character select and then finally into the Director menu.. and THEN went back to the dashboard to fire up Spotify so I can listen to some music on the side, I would get logged out and have to go through the entire login process all over again.

I can deal with the annoyance of getting kicked all the way back out to the "start" screen when I suspend my console, because OK it's technically an online game and even though the presence of other players around me hardly matters unless I'm in PVP it is what it is. But getting kicked when firing up Spotify because it has to suspend Destiny 2 while it launches the app was kinda annoying.

That is of course a small nitpick.

The slowness of the inventory screen on a base PS4 wasn't all that fun either considering how often you bring it up and the fake mouse cursor continues to be a weird UI choice for a console game.

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Apathetic_One

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Edited By Apathetic_One

No idea why you’d play this on ps4 at this point.

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sammo21

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@apathetic_one: maybe some people don’t have gaming friends on pc or want to game on pc...

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Dan_CiTi

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is the crew gonna do the raid?

Seeing as how basically only Brad, Jeff, and Rorie have really touched this (and I don't think Rorie has ever raided which is nuts to me) that seems super unlikely. Especially seeing how the next month of games is coming through hot and heavy.

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I played Destiny 2 and enjoyed it for about 3 weeks and while it was an alright game all I could think about the entire time was it felt extremely lackluster. I was expecting more after the Taken King and it felt like Destiny 2 was a worse game. The campaign missions are uninspired and the story is awful. The pvp and the grind was fun for a time but gets old quick because they never can put out new enough content fast enough. The decision to make half the weapon types considered "heavy" weapons seemed like a really bad design choice and it was. The shader stuff and emotes and all that crap is such an obvious money grab.

I just don't understand how they can be selling so many copies of this game and have such a loyal following and yet they barely put out any content, especially after going through 3 years of developing and learning between destiny 1 and 2. Then you are supposed to shell out another $60 for all the DLC that adds more content in a game that lacks new stuff to do and fixes all the base games problems. How are they not releasing multiple raids per year? Those two smaller expansions sounded terrible.

This Forsaken expansion sounds like a step in the right direction but it feels crazy to charge $60 to be able to play it.

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goulash_enjoyer

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The Dreaming City's 3 week cycle is not "literally groundhog day" because only Bill Murray's character was aware of the time loop.

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The one thing I was hoping to see here, that has been missed literally every time Forsaken has been talked about on the podcast, is the fact that different content unlocks in the Dreaming City based on the 3-week "corruption" cycle. And hell, even beyond that, there has been a totally different "ascendant challenge" mission every single week since launch. That's 6 different challenge missions on top of the new strike and various story missions each week. And then there's the 10 ascendant chests each week... there is just so damn much to do now, and it's all fun and challenging in different ways. I can't remember the last time I was excited for reset day in Destiny like I am now, and that's not even mentioning Festival of the Lost starting up tomorrow!

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HiredN00bs

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Edited By HiredN00bs

@humanity said:

@brad: I completely agree but in all fairness I think it's strange that they got just as many things wrong on the second go at it as they did during the first time, which you must admit, is odd all things considered. I'm sure that the people down in the trenches wanted this game to be the best it could be and whatever circumstances made Destiny 2 what it was at launch was probably out of their hands. That said, it was still a base game with barely anymore content than the first. The entire shader thing is a design choice that is hard to defend on any level - not a deal breaker mind you, but still a "why?" moment if I ever saw one. Both expansions before Forsaken were lackluster to put it mildly, much like the first two expansions of the first game, with Forsaken taken place of The Taken King as a big, feature rich overhaul that brings it all around.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist, and trust me when I say that I too wish all games were awesome and I'm sure the hard working coders, artists, and designers out there want that too. That said the similarities between Destiny's shortcomings and eventual road to "redemption" so to speak with the Taken King and Destiny 2 are very similar. Still no clan chat, still no basic communication tools. People can enjoy this content and I'm not taking it away from them, but at this point I do feel like they should be doing more, especially after Destiny 1 was their trial run.

"It was still a base game with barely anymore content than the first."

The term "content" has become pretty nebulous, in that people use it to refer to anything and everything--spaces, activities, loot, cinematics, investment buckets, etc. If there are plenty of places to go and things to do, but those activities and places lack context, I wouldn't call that a content deficiency problem, per se. Neither game had a dearth of content, but overarching flaws in design which rendered content uninteresting, or worse, irrelevant.

In Destiny, specifically at launch, the game had a glut of short story missions and a handful of co-operative strikes that lacked narrative cohesiveness and had serious issues with design quality. However, the lack of structure prompted the fans to dig through all the nooks and crannies of the game and come to appreciate its rougher edges. Subsequent expansions gave better context to the activities and spaces in the game. New activities had a higher quality bar, and even old activities were revised or swept under the rug to create a stronger set of things to do for players.

In Destiny 2, the game had a cohesive story campaign and strikes that exhibited larger scale and stronger design from the beginning. Most players traveled a good length of the progression systems that were there and moved on. The fans did so even faster and started to wonder what they were supposed to do for the next year with this game. There just weren't a lot of auxiliary investment goals to chase, or put more precisely, those goals were achieved more easily in less time. Most hardcore players did not like all of the streamlining and simplification of the game's idiosyncrasies, like the weapon slot changes, or the pre-fabricated skill trees, or the abandonment of randomized gear, or a host of other changes that focused the game more around action than investment.

It might be neat to spin a narrative about how Destiny 2 repeated Destiny's mistakes in a parallel fashion, but that simply isn't true to what happened. Just look at the critical reception of the games at their respective launches: there's a substantial difference. This was a result of Bungie putting a large amount of development resources into what the average player's experience of the game would be like, and in doing so, under-served the players who predominately play Destiny as their lifestyle game, a deficiency that they have attempted to correct with the post-release updates leading to and included with Forsaken.

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flippyandnod

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Honestly, I think this game is the epitome of how I'm just not really in sync with the Bombers anymore.

They spent a lot of time talking about this game last year for GOTY awards and managed to argue some really good games off the list to make room and then used this room to put Destiny 2 on the list.

And then Bungie's next update to the game turned everyone off. And all that happened not only by the end of the year, but before the GOTY recordings even were released.

And now, a year later, they're falling for this game again.

I'm not saying they're wrong. Everything is a matter of opinion. But I just don't feel like their opinions have much to do with mine anymore. They seem very much interested in games which allow the entire bomb crew (East and West) to play together. And I do see how that's fun for them. But it's not something I value at all. I don't have an 8 person crew split across the country that I'm really thrilled about getting together.

And (this is more brad-specific) I certainly have no interest in DOTA.

Again, I'm not saying they're wrong. But it's getting so it's really hard to go anything by what the Bomb crew says and reach a conclusion about whether I'll feel the same way about the game.

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Hestilllives19

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Edited By Hestilllives19

@cjduke (Keep in mind this isn't directed at you only, but several people with the same responses) I feel like several people aren't reading the note added at the top of this article. Bungie announced last Thursday that all Purchases of Forsaken will include both Curse of Osiris and Warmind. So it's only $60 if you don't own Destiny 2 at all. If you got it from Playstation Plus last month, or bought it last year, it only costs $40 to buy Forsaken now.

As far as content goes, there was new End Game Story content up until 2 weeks ago, brand new Activities that haven't stopped coming even yet, including a new Live Event (Festival of The Lost) that added an updated Dark Timetrial version of Curse's Infinite Forrest (just yesterday) that's actually pretty good, a new Quest that will lead to an Exotic (very likely the return of the Thunderlord HMG) in a mission we think is set back on The Cosmodrome... Forsaken is far from light on content, in fact this week has so much content people are complaining about that; the Shattered Throne Dungeon, Iron Banner, and Festival of the Lost are all temporary Activities this week, so that's in addition to the normal Weekly Loop of content. As far as Raids go, Destiny 2 now has 4 Raids. Leviathan, Eater of Worlds, Spire of Stars, and Last Wish, which is more Raid content than they ever have. Now if we are to complain about the cost of keeping up, I totally get that, the Annual Pass is another $35 (or $30 if you buy it with Forsaken together), but that kind of goes against your lack of content argument here. We are getting 3 unique Expansions this Destiny year, and there will be 4 Seasons of change with them. Black Armory comes in December, just about 6 weeks from now or so, and will include new Quests/Activities/Raid Lair. Joker's Wild comes out in Spring (usually around April, but probably March this year due to 3 DLC's) and Penumbra in Summer (very likely June) and will also include a Raid Lair. So that's another major Raid and 2 Raid Lairs this year bringing us to 2 major Raids and 4 Raid Lairs. When you also think about how well received Destiny 2 first Dungeon was with Shattered Throne, it's also highly possible each new DLC will come with a Dungeon, and Shattered Throne was one of my favorite Destiny Activities to date. I wish Brad would have talked about Shattered Throne here, but I'm pretty positive he was too low PL to do it 3 weeks ago, and will be doing it for the first time this week if he gets a chance to with some of the people on Discord. Anyone calling Forsaken light on content makes me think they are just really out of the loop on Destiny. For anyone playing less than 20 hours a week, it's kind of impossible to do more than just the Weekly stuff right now on 1 character, much less work on Quests/Special Activities. You pretty much have to pick one or the other to go after right now.

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Humanity

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Edited By Humanity

@hiredn00bs: I find it pretty weird that it would be labeled as "spinning a narrative" as opposed to just saying what you experienced. I played Destiny 1 quite a bit, did the whole grind before Taken King changed things "for the better" by having 3 alts and doing the Raid on hard on each one of those characters once a week, along with the nightfalls, the Iron Banner weeks etc. It got to the point where playing Destiny was almost a job to keep up with my crew mates that I had fun grinding with.

Fast forward to Destiny 2 and the base game was still very much that experience. It was an awkwardly told, amnemic story that served as a prolonged tutorial until the game finally opened up in the post-game where the number of currencies and grind treadmills went up. Tons of small quality of life changes were added, but to me it was essentially the same trajectory as the first game. Now you grind your way up to nightfalls, to heroics and then the raid and then you grind the raid. Fast forward again to Forsaken and a lot of the quirks have now gotten resolved and Destiny is "better than ever" but my question is why did we have to go through two mediocre expansion and a full base game to get to that point, again.

I'm not spinning a narrative here, thats basically how it looks like from my perspective - thats how I experienced it. Now maybe I'm looking at it from a glass half empty point of view, plenty of passionate people on these very forums see no wrong with this game and are having a blast and like I said earlier I'm not trying to take that away from them. But if I'm spinning an overly negative narrative then plenty of people out there are definitely spinning a very favorable one instead. It's just super weird to be disappointed by something and then have others (Brad included) try to somehow make it out like it's such an outlandish perspective to have.

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steveurkel

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I owe brad an apology after watching the actual review and hearing him talk about this it sounded worth trying and them making the 2 dlc free with forsaken for 30 bucks I picked it up yesterday to see what it's all about since cayde is one of the things I hated the most about playing this. Turns out I never beat the original campaign I was 2 missions from finishing it and I'm playing through curse and warmind because what's the point of skipping to boost? I'm enjoying curse so far and am looking forward to getting to see the forsaken content.

The changes to this game almost make it feel like a different game and I'm not even done forsaken yet. Curse is great and very pretty areas.

Thanks for the video review it changed my mind.

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HiredN00bs

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Edited By HiredN00bs

@humanity said:

@hiredn00bs: I find it pretty weird that it would be labeled as "spinning a narrative" as opposed to just saying what you experienced. I played Destiny 1 quite a bit, did the whole grind before Taken King changed things "for the better" by having 3 alts and doing the Raid on hard on each one of those characters once a week, along with the nightfalls, the Iron Banner weeks etc. It got to the point where playing Destiny was almost a job to keep up with my crew mates that I had fun grinding with.

Fast forward to Destiny 2 and the base game was still very much that experience. It was an awkwardly told, amnemic story that served as a prolonged tutorial until the game finally opened up in the post-game where the number of currencies and grind treadmills went up. Tons of small quality of life changes were added, but to me it was essentially the same trajectory as the first game. Now you grind your way up to nightfalls, to heroics and then the raid and then you grind the raid. Fast forward again to Forsaken and a lot of the quirks have now gotten resolved and Destiny is "better than ever" but my question is why did we have to go through two mediocre expansion and a full base game to get to that point, again.

I'm not spinning a narrative here, thats basically how it looks like from my perspective - thats how I experienced it. Now maybe I'm looking at it from a glass half empty point of view, plenty of passionate people on these very forums see no wrong with this game and are having a blast and like I said earlier I'm not trying to take that away from them. But if I'm spinning an overly negative narrative then plenty of people out there are definitely spinning a very favorable one instead. It's just super weird to be disappointed by something and then have others (Brad included) try to somehow make it out like it's such an outlandish perspective to have.

I played through Destiny's campaign several times at launch, after The Taken King, and again in the past couple of months with a friend I'm introducing to the game. I've also played Destiny 2's campaign beginning-to-end at least four times, as recently as after the launch of Curse of Osiris. One can't say that Destiny 2's campaign was anything like Destiny's campaign and maintain any sort of intellectual honesty, in my opinion. Almost everything about them is different: cohesiveness, pacing, and level design are all substantially improved. The destinations the campaign was set in were denser and full of activities beyond the basic patrols in Destiny. You could argue that the writing was poor (personally, I think it was mediocre, but acceptable), but the story and the player's journey through it wasn't as bizarre and disconnected as Destiny, by any measure. You sweep all of this into "awkwardly told, anemic story that served as a prolonged tutorial". This is bizarrely reductive and misrepresentative. The game performed well with critics and casual players, and many finally got to see the endgame stuff before they left. Even the Giant Bomb folks finished an almost blind raid, and one of the more difficult ones in the franchise, at that.

The primary blowback from Destiny 2 wasn't from the gaming community at large, but the fans, i.e. the lifestyle players. You characterize Destiny 2's launch endgame as one where "the number of currencies and grind treadmills went up". To the contrary, it was for the lack of investment paths that the lifestyle players revolted, and what set in course the all-hands-on-deck studio atmosphere that drove many of the design choices in the mid-year QoL updates and in Forsaken.

What Brad is saying is that it's ridiculous to assume that they would release a game they didn't think met their most important design goals. Conspiracy theories about the publisher pushing them to release anyway are just that; Bungie and Activision have already demonstrated they will delay to put out a better product. Destiny was delayed at least a year. Shattered Suns (what would become Destiny 2) was delayed at least a year. Based on my discussions with people that worked on the project, there wasn't necessarily a strong understanding of how launch Destiny 2 had a player investment problem internally, and it even took about 6 weeks or so after the game was in the wild for this sentiment to start to solidify in the game's communities.

And just a note on "narrative-spinning": that's exactly what we're all doing here when we try and characterize the game in this way, writing about my experience with the game, the experience of my friends, of the communities, and of the designers. I don't doubt your experience, that you felt like the game made similar mistakes, or that Destiny 2 reminded you of how you felt about Destiny 1 or the Taken King or something (it isn't clear to me what you meant), I just disagree with your conclusions.