Giant Bombcast 11-01-2011

@MormonWarrior: Some people stop to smell the flowers when playing a video game.

Killzone 2/3 has really good death slumps.

I was quite surprised they forgot about Euphoria during their animation talk. Used in popular games such as GTA IV and Red Dead: Redemption.

The difference between the previous GTA and Saints Row is pretty significant.

In the previous GTA the gameplay lets you be a psycho asshole, and then the cutscenes are super serious moral dilemma stuff.

In Saints Row the gameplay lets you be a psycho asshole, and then the cutscenes show your character as an even bigger psycho asshole.

@ll_Exile_ll said:

@Artemis_D said:

It took you 40 hours to play through Ocarina of Time? And Twilight Princess? What the @#!*% ?

I don't know why that is so surprising, those games are @#!*% long. They both have like 10 dungeons and tons of side stuff to do. If you play through either of those the first time through in much less than 35-40 hours, you are doing yourself a disservice by rushing through.

I have 100% of everything in Twilight Princess without using a guide with about 27 hours. How in the world did you spend 40 hours in the game? The side stuff didn't even turn out to be worth doing.

I always end up being surprised at how SHORT Ocarina of Time actually is when I just play the story and ignore irrelevant side stuff. Although the side stuff in that game is actually interesting and useful (like, you get a new freaking sword. Come on.) If you count the well, the ice cavern, and Ganon's castle, Ocarina has a total of 11 dungeons. Without those it's 8.

So Eternal Darkness is supposed to be goofy? I didn't pick up on that, I thought it was just incredibly hackneyed.

I thought Arkham City took place a year after Arkham Asylum? And Arkham City has only existed for 6 months at the start of the game.

@bunkerbuster05 said:

Santa's Slay is the best Christmas movie of all time. Seriously, it's so god damn funny.

My friends and I watch it every year, no joke.

To those who haven't seen it: Satan plays CURLING.

I hate that Brad rags on the Zelda fans who care about a timeline. What if I just find it fun to figure out the links between each of the games? Like the fact that the skeletal warrior who teaches you sword techniques in Twilight Princess is probably a Stalfos version of Majora's Mask Link who got lost in the woods looking for Navi. How cool is that?

It's not like I'd care if Nintendo made a Zelda game that didn't have direct connections to any other one, all that matters is that it's a good game. That's the only reason I'm a fan of Zelda in the first place. Would Brad stop playing Starcraft if they decided to retcon the entire thing and pretend that Kerrigan was never a Zerg? Probably not, but I'd bet he'd be a little disappointed, as would I. And guess what, Blizzard doesn't make Starcraft out of the goodness of their hearts, just for the fans. They make it because of money. They wouldn't fuck with the story because it would hurt sales, but they are locked in to what they have done before, something Nintendo doesn't want to happen to one of its flagship franchises. Doesn't mean that the connections aren't thrown in, just to keep the people like me who look for them happy.

Of course, there are crazy, rabid fans out there who would feel betrayed by a Zelda that didn't fit into their perfect little timeline, but those people exist for every property. And they're easy to make fun of, or ignore, but just let them have it. And maybe if you actually listened to what they had to say, you might think Zelda is even cooler, too.

@OriginalGman:

The way I see it, there's a difference between Zelda timeline fans and Zelda timeline fans. Some of the story knowledge you get from the "zelda continuity"is pretty cool.

I mean, look at Wind Waker and Twillight Princess. In the Wind Waker we a see a completely different Ganondorf than in TP, he's much humbler, wiser and even shows a hint of regret about Hyrule's fate. While the Ganondorf in TP is an arrogant and simpleminded egomaniac.

The changes in his attitude totally makes sense when you consider the Ganondorf in TP never managed to overtake Hyrule castle because Link warned the king in time (since it took place a 100 years or so after MM). While the Ganon in WW was defeated by OOT Link and sealed up by the sages for many years. You'd be silly to deny this stuff is there, and you don't need to read obscure interviews to find it out.I mean, hell, The intro to WW directly references the events of adult-timeline OOT .

But the minute when people start "decoding" acient hylian and reverse translating new hylian into old in order to show how the war of awakening took pla -- oh god shut up. there are massive holes in the continuity which you could probably fit an aircraft carrier through- At that point you are thinking way harder about it than the guys at EAD ever have.

@Shaanyboi said:

...Uhhh... Rockstar's writing is AMAZING??!?! What fucking games have you been playing? They're the most ham-fisted, worst-characterized, totally unsubtle pieces of shit when it comes to their narrative.

I think people tend to let the incredible voice acting bleed into their opinion of the underpinning writing. RDR was easily my favorite Rockstar game story-wise (not counting the fantastic Max Payne games by Remedy), but even it had long, long stretches of dialogue that was so self-serious that the usual "it's just satire" defense doesn't really cut it anymore. It's not the worst writing in video games by any means, I mean Square Enix still makes games, but it might be the worst coming from writers (Dan Houser) who honestly think they're great.

@Shaanyboi said:

...Uhhh... Rockstar's writing is AMAZING??!?! What fucking games have you been playing? They're the most ham-fisted, worst-characterized, totally unsubtle pieces of shit when it comes to their narrative.

I'd probably describe the writing with less superlatives, but I'd agree that for the most parts, its a long shot from "amazing". There's a lot of sloppy writing in pretty much every rockstar game I've played.

....I don't think their stories are entirely without merit, though.

Eff you guys. Grease is awesome.

And that is coming from someone who doesn't like musicals.

For the record, my grandmother loves NCIS.

I think Ryan was spot on with his analysis of Uncharted 3. I feel as though Naughty Dog hit the sweet spot with the combat in Uncharted 2. The combat in Uncharted 3 is like Uncharted 1 in that it is excruciatingly brutal and unforgiving. When momentum is your number one asset, fairly difficult combat scenarios on normal difficulty settings really detracts from the experience.

@MormonWarrior: I'm not exactly sure what I did, but according to the final timer on my first playthrough of Twilight Princess, I sunk over 75 hours into it. Maybe I had a ton of hours of the game just idling, who knows.

@mutha3 said:

@Shaanyboi said:

...Uhhh... Rockstar's writing is AMAZING??!?! What fucking games have you been playing? They're the most ham-fisted, worst-characterized, totally unsubtle pieces of shit when it comes to their narrative.

I'd probably describe the writing with less superlatives, but I'd agree that for the most parts, its a long shot from "amazing". There's a lot of sloppy writing in pretty much every rockstar game I've played.

....I don't think their stories are entirely without merit, though.

No, certainly not. There are thematic underpinnings that absolutely are interesting. But the actual execution is pretty terrible. Scenes that could be emotionally impactful are thrown to the dogs, motivations of characters are almost completely ignored at times...

From a pacing standpoint, and a characterization standpoint, they're pretty goddamn bad.

@Hashbrowns said:

@Shaanyboi said:

...Uhhh... Rockstar's writing is AMAZING??!?! What fucking games have you been playing? They're the most ham-fisted, worst-characterized, totally unsubtle pieces of shit when it comes to their narrative.

I think people tend to let the incredible voice acting bleed into their opinion of the underpinning writing. RDR was easily my favorite Rockstar game story-wise (not counting the fantastic Max Payne games by Remedy), but even it had long, long stretches of dialogue that was so self-serious that the usual "it's just satire" defense doesn't really cut it anymore. It's not the worst writing in video games by any means, I mean Square Enix still makes games, but it might be the worst coming from writers (Dan Houser) who honestly think they're great.

I certainly agree with you on that... It's like satire written by a 16 year old.

I am become Brad, the Puller of worlds.

I love NCIS... Ziva is SMOKING hot.

Ragdoll itself isn't a problem, it's poorly implemented ragdoll that is. Most of the time it looks off because the limbs and body move like they have no weight, the slightest touch will send them flailing, and joints are never quiet correct. If they can come up with a system where body parts behave as if they have mass, and joints are modeled with proper resistances and limits, letting physics take care of dead bodies would be fine.

@OneManX: You too? My father-in-law is in love with her. "any episode with zia is a good episode"

I'M WITH JEFF BURN DOWN THE BANKS

I actually think that ragdoll physics in the Uncharted series is some of the better implemented these days. The range-of-motion for the model's extremities are anatomically correct. But, I can't defend the physics when the limbs clip through terrain, causing it to convulse violently.

"Daytona didn't hold up?" WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?!?!?!

@Shaanyboi said:

No, certainly not. There are thematic underpinnings that absolutely are interesting. But the actual execution is pretty terrible. Scenes that could be emotionally impactful are thrown to the dogs, motivations of characters are almost completely ignored at times...

From a pacing standpoint, and a characterization standpoint, they're pretty goddamn bad.

But Rockstar's writing is amazing for the video game industry. There's an understanding of the source and setting that very few studios can approach. Not only that but they know how to inject their games with style. The story execution itself aren't the best (tend to be too long and harp on the same points), but everything that surrounds them is really well done. With that said though, its terrible when you extrapolate it to other mediums, but it's just the fact that very few other studios are near their level (I can only think of Irrational, tbh).

i agree brad, the dance one is sublime

I love it. Vinnie says 'Let's get political!' Yes! YES! Actually no, let's not have a Giant Spoilercast just yet, but hey, glad you're all feeling the revolution. But just between us, Silver and Gold people! And don't let the bankers put one of those RFID chips in you, will you now. Take care, and keep watching the skies!!!

I understand Vinny's storage situation.  I work at a post-production company that's got over 500 TB of hard drive storage, but ever since HD became the norm and Apple introduced the ProRes format, we're always low on space and have to constantly backup files to tape.  3-D movies are the biggest wastes of space because they have to be encoded twice for the left and right eyes.
 
I hope Jeff reviews Skyward Sword out of tradition.  The first time I even heard of Jeff was because of his Ocarina Of Time review, and he's reviewed all the major Zelda games since.

Why does everyone say that Edge doesn't give out 10s? They've given out 9 of them this gen alone.

@Shaanyboi said:

...Uhhh... Rockstar's writing is AMAZING??!?! What fucking games have you been playing? They're the most ham-fisted, worst-characterized, totally unsubtle pieces of shit when it comes to their narrative.

Uh, wrong. What rockstar games have YOU been playing?

Nice Spaceballs quote!

Awesome podcast guys! thanks for it = )

@Trilogy said:

@Shaanyboi said:

...Uhhh... Rockstar's writing is AMAZING??!?! What fucking games have you been playing? They're the most ham-fisted, worst-characterized, totally unsubtle pieces of shit when it comes to their narrative.

Uh, wrong. What rockstar games have YOU been playing?

GTA4, LA Noire, and Red Dead Redemption... y'know.. the "critically acclaimed" ones

@Shaanyboi said:

@Trilogy said:

@Shaanyboi said:

...Uhhh... Rockstar's writing is AMAZING??!?! What fucking games have you been playing? They're the most ham-fisted, worst-characterized, totally unsubtle pieces of shit when it comes to their narrative.

Uh, wrong. What rockstar games have YOU been playing?

GTA4, LA Noire, and Red Dead Redemption... y'know.. the "critically acclaimed" ones

All three are very deserving of that acclaim.

Tuesday night wars are over fully converted from gamespot to giantbomb. Gaming for me is an religion ;) and giantbomb is the sheez

Bombcast!

I've only just had time to listen to this Bombcast. Probably the latest I've caught one. "The Only Nigel In Kentucky" line was great.

@Trilogy said:

@Shaanyboi said:

@Trilogy said:

@Shaanyboi said:

...Uhhh... Rockstar's writing is AMAZING??!?! What fucking games have you been playing? They're the most ham-fisted, worst-characterized, totally unsubtle pieces of shit when it comes to their narrative.

Uh, wrong. What rockstar games have YOU been playing?

GTA4, LA Noire, and Red Dead Redemption... y'know.. the "critically acclaimed" ones

All three are very deserving of that acclaim.

Don´t worry, there will always be snobs who think they know better than everyone else. Just ignore them and let them talk about "horrible" narrative and characterisation for the rest of eternety while they have Citizen Kane on loop in the background.

They are wrong and tend to use a lot of horrible generalisation, so you´re wasting your time trying to argue with them. Oh, but in case you still want to try: Use some generalisation yourself, like: "Whoever argues that GTAIV has anything short of amazing storytelling and characters is a bitter filmschool dropout who is just jealous of Rockstar. Their stories will only improve with time and the naysayer´s arguments will sound even more ridiculous in a couple of years."

@Superfriend: Strawman much?

Rockstar make amazing worlds, I don't think any company makes places come to life in a video game like Rockstar. Their plotting and story structure in recent games has been all over the place though, the writing is the weakest part of their games. Their stories are not "improving with time", if anything they are getting worse due to using and reusing the same cliched character types in title after title. I met the same people in GTA IV as I did in RDR, and I really hope I don't meet them again in GTA V. I have a sad feeling that I will though.

Rockstar have nailed the world-building aspect, but they need a shot in the arm in the writing department.

@Parkingtigers said:

@Superfriend: Strawman much?

Rockstar make amazing worlds, I don't think any company makes places come to life in a video game like Rockstar. Their plotting and story structure in recent games has been all over the place though, the writing is the weakest part of their games. Their stories are not "improving with time", if anything they are getting worse due to using and reusing the same cliched character types in title after title. I met the same people in GTA IV as I did in RDR, and I really hope I don't meet them again in GTA V. I have a sad feeling that I will though.

Rockstar have nailed the world-building aspect, but they need a shot in the arm in the writing department.

Not a strawman at all. You´re just wrong. People like you constantly compare videogame writing to movie writing, which is a mistake all by itself. At the same time, you judge all products Rockstar (as a publisher) has put out for their respective writing and come to the same conclusion. Second mistake. Yes, the Housers have some amount of influence over the writing of every single game there. And they should. Cause they´re damn sharp at what they do: Sarcastic comedy with a lot of dark twists. Now, the Housers are not responsible for every single piece of writing that comes out of 2k/Rockstar. Guys like you and the OP like to generalise, as if every single Rockstar game would constantly use the same tricks. They don´t. LA Noire was drastically different from all the other games named. Because it was written by a different group of people.

What you guys call "mistakes" and "bad writing" is just a part of the process. These are -for the most part- open world games and not films or cinematic games like Fahrenheit or Heavy Rain (BTW: if you want to call out bad characters or development, why not list those?)

In games as a storytelling device, you can never ever have the same amount of control as in a movie. You just can´t- except if you want your game to be a non-interactive QTE fest. That´s why games are written in a very different way. They just can´t be as subtle as a movie can and cant force you to exprerience a random character´s development (hence the stereotypes) I honestly think Rockstar has it figured out a lot better than some of the competition. Just look at the jump between GTA SA and GTA IV.. that´s what I meant with "improvement". I expect GTA V to be an improvement too. If they don´t try to cater to the Saints Row crowd.

I like punching people.

@Superfriend said:

@Parkingtigers said:

@Superfriend: Strawman much?

Rockstar make amazing worlds, I don't think any company makes places come to life in a video game like Rockstar. Their plotting and story structure in recent games has been all over the place though, the writing is the weakest part of their games. Their stories are not "improving with time", if anything they are getting worse due to using and reusing the same cliched character types in title after title. I met the same people in GTA IV as I did in RDR, and I really hope I don't meet them again in GTA V. I have a sad feeling that I will though.

Rockstar have nailed the world-building aspect, but they need a shot in the arm in the writing department.

Not a strawman at all. You´re just wrong. People like you constantly compare videogame writing to movie writing, which is a mistake all by itself. At the same time, you judge all products Rockstar (as a publisher) has put out for their respective writing and come to the same conclusion. Second mistake. Yes, the Housers have some amount of influence over the writing of every single game there. And they should. Cause they´re damn sharp at what they do: Sarcastic comedy with a lot of dark twists. Now, the Housers are not responsible for every single piece of writing that comes out of 2k/Rockstar. Guys like you and the OP like to generalise, as if every single Rockstar game would constantly use the same tricks. They don´t. LA Noire was drastically different from all the other games named. Because it was written by a different group of people.

What you guys call "mistakes" and "bad writing" is just a part of the process. These are -for the most part- open world games and not films or cinematic games like Fahrenheit or Heavy Rain (BTW: if you want to call out bad characters or development, why not list those?)

In games as a storytelling device, you can never ever have the same amount of control as in a movie. You just can´t- except if you want your game to be a non-interactive QTE fest. That´s why games are written in a very different way. They just can´t be as subtle as a movie can and cant force you to exprerience a random character´s development (hence the stereotypes) I honestly think Rockstar has it figured out a lot better than some of the competition. Just look at the jump between GTA SA and GTA IV.. that´s what I meant with "improvement". I expect GTA V to be an improvement too. If they don´t try to cater to the Saints Row crowd.

Edit: You know what, I don't really have the time or energy to get into an internet argument with someone that is obviously blinkered to how storytelling in games needs to follow the same rules as storytelling in ALL other media. I could sit and list, at length, specific problems with plotting, pacing, and characters with all the recent Rockstar games but I think you've already made up your mind.

All I'll say is this, the mention of Saints Row is apt. In Saints Row 2, every story mission followed on from the one that came before it. There were no endless fetch/kill quests for a series of loathsome and disposable characters like in GTA IV, you were the boss and you were working for your own personal gain at all times. Taking down each of the three rival gangs, piece by piece, was a cohesive, interesting, and tightly plotted narrative. All the way through it I was dealing with the same group of friends too, Gat, Shaundi and Pierce. Those same homies are returning for the next game too, so this means there will be some connection between events at the beginning of the game to those in the middle, and end too.

That sense of continuity is what recent Rockstar games, all of them, have been lacking. In sandbox games particularly, you can spend a long time just dicking around between missions so it is even more important that the flow of missions links earlier events to later ones, so that the story actually makes sense. GTA IV, to use an example, just wheeled in a mission giver, you'd do a few kill/fetch quests for them, and then they would be wheeled out (usually killed off) and then a new mission giver would repeat the process. It was painfully episodic, and with all the earlier characters being bumped off there was no way that hour 40 of the game could ever link to hour 10 of the game, because everything you did for and with those characters ended when they died.

Also, get back to me about the quality of Rockstar's writing when they actually manage to write even one decent role for a female character. Just one.

I actually remember the Coyote Grill...never went there in all my 16 years of living in Petaluma, but it looked like a real shit-show. The kind of place you go if you're middle-aged and bourbon-drunk, but not ready to go home yet.