VinnyVania: Symphony of the Night - Part 05

@alucitary said:

I was unaware you called the shots at GBEast

Vinny gets bummed out every time he does it, and since they clearly aren't discussing it off screen it needs to be said. They are free to do what they want, I'm just stating the concise criticism that most people in the comments are feeling about this series. Is that a fair enough disclaimer smartass?

@alucitary said:

I was also unaware you could read peoples minds and apparently has some remote viewing powers to boot (I mean you're so certain that whatever you think is a problem is not being "discussed off screen")

If you can't see that Vinny isn't happy about the specific directions, and that Alex has been getting worse at doing it from episode to episode, then you clearly aren't watching the video. Speaking of, why don't you throw in your own 2 cents about the content of the video rather than policing other peoples comments? If anyone here is making bad/unwanted comments it's you.

Need to turn the volume up on this video, all the bickering in here is way too loud.

I still took damage from bosses but with minimal dodging you killl them faster than they kill you.

Argh, the whole chat thing is why I stopped watching this series. I was scanning the comments hoping they'd let things roll out more organically this time after how bad the last video was for this stuff, but evidently not. :/

@alucitary: Vinny's a big boy, he doesn't need you policing what he does or doesn't get told. It always seems really weird to me that people think they can tell what a streamer does or doesn't want to hear from their co-stars. If they're playing a videogame on the internet, chances are they're a sentient, independantly functional individual, and can decide and express what they do or do not want to do or hear.

I know the whole 'Twitch plays'-trend was very popular for a hot minute. But I honestly don't think that it's a well suited feature for a great site like Giant Bomb.

@blipp18: DING DING DING

i really should stop reading these things,they only angry the blood.

@alucitary: yeah, no I can't, only Vinny knows what he is or isn't happy about, all you're doing is guessing based on your own view of the situation., which seems you consider to be the undisputed factual truth...

@onarum: I'm sure it's not a big enough deal for Vinny to directly confront Alex about it, but for a lot of people it is diminishing the exploration aspect of the series. That is why I am commenting my criticism. This sure is a difficult concept for some people I guess.

@themaintank: You are free to live in a world where you choose not to infer anything about anyone except for when they explicitly say what they are feeling. I wont try to stop you.

We don't know how Vinny and Alex feel about too much information from the chat, but as a viewer, my opinion is that live chats make all game streams worse. Maybe it's fun if you're watching live and you're in the chat room, but since I only watch archives I don't care what some chat room was saying at the time. When streams have someone on "chat duty" it usually just becomes a contest to see who can get their awful jokes read on air. The worst. In this series, instead of relaying jokes it's more like being fed a walkthrough, which is less annoying but still detrimental to the enjoyment of the videos, I think. Even having a single "expert" doing a guided playthrough would be better, because the chat contradicts itself half the time.

I understand the temptation to tell Vinny where to go and what to do, because then it feels like "we" made it through the game, but you're basically ruining someone's first experience with Symphony of the Night by turning him into a conduit for your commands. Suggestions between episodes is all well and good, but like MythDark said in a previous comment: this is turning into Twitch Plays SotN.

I want to see @alex do Danzig karaoke.

Jussayin'.

The glitchyness in the video archive is back. You fixed it at some point after sotn ep 1 or thereabouts, but now it's back again.

Also yes, chat gives too much advice and also bad advice. Just let them play the game.

Ugh not sure what is worse the chat in the video or these comments here...

Hey yeah it's totally OK to just close that chat window sometimes I'm sure.

Still fun to watch this game, but agree with most people that having gotten through the annoying and obtuse requirements to get to the second half of the game, they should really shut off the chat help. Early on there was a good balance of hints and exploration, but this episode it was just Vinny following explicit directions and chat spoiling every single thing, no matter how little.

Having everything to reach the inverted castle and already knowing the layout of the whole place, there's no need for constant hints at this point. As great as this game is, the difficulty is really uneven and the combat becomes trivialized at times, such that the exploration and item gathering are the only real gameplay there. It's not like the previous games where hints didn't matter since it was all on Vinny to figure out and execute a level/boss.

Yup, been saying it for a couple of episodes, chat sucks and they also are saying nonsense half the time. It's like they're doing a "Twitch Plays". Glad Vinny called out that he just wanted to play at least, even though that didn't stop the issue.

EDIT: this cannot go uncorrected: Moonstone / Sunstone *do not* use the system clock in this version of the game (nor did they in the PSX original). The Saturn version works that way, but otherwise it is based on playtime with the first 6h being night, then 12h of day, 12h of night, etc.

I caught that, as well. Come to think of it, given the other small changes made to the Xbox 360 version, it's actually kind of a shame that the clock room couldn't be reworked to work as it did in the Saturn version. I know that the Saturn version is generally considered to be a bad port, but it presented some really nice changes that improved game play, namely the extended wing smash in bat form and the "third hand" that you could use for items.

I'll be honest, I kind of like the chat expedited version of this series.

Gotta agree with the previous comments that blindly following what chat says is ruining the series.

Kinda wish this whole game had been pre-recorded now.

Yep, SotN continues to be dope.

Since I've beaten this game countless times, picking up the spike armor and taking it to the spike room is a given. But watching Vinny intuit that "hmm... maybe this spike armor can be used at the spike room" is fascinating to me.

Sure, they got hints, but I feel like they put a lot of stuff together themselves, too. Stuff that took me hours when I was a kid.

@kevinski: Neat, I never got to play the Saturn version.

I finally managed to watch the rest of this video, and my god, playing in such a "guided" way is really sucking (stealing?) the soul out of the game. The people who remember it fondly weren't playing it with a guide (and presumably some of those are the same people giving directions in chat).

I dunno whether to blame chat or Alex more for it though. Fingers crossed that chat is broken or something next time.

Also pretty sure it doesn't matter if you hit the ground when jumping into the librarian with the gravity boots...so that was much ado about nothing.

It's my preferred version of the game. It has a lot of flaws, but it's the most complete version of the game. What bugs me about SotN's re-releases, even the version included in Dracula X Chronicles for PSP, is that there are clearly unfinished aspects of the game that never get addressed, despite there being other smaller, less-significant things been changed. I get that it's probably hard to make extensive changes to the game, but if Konami's B-team (probably more like C-team or D-team, actually) that worked on the Saturn version managed to squeeze in two new areas and new enemies, then surely Iga could've pulled something together. He even went out of his way to make it impossible to reach the "inaccessible" save point at the entrance, only to make it easier by accident. Just put a new area in there!

Using the chat as a guide is destroying the purity of SOTN how dare you giantbomb dot com!

@gregalor: The chat giving contradictory advice is just the spirit of Castlevania 2 living on. In chat form.

I don't get why people are so down on chat advice, if Vinny didn't want to hear it he could just say so. People get frustrated when the chat guides Vinny away from dead ends. They also get frustrated when Vinny reaches a dead end and takes too long to realize he can't get past it. I can only imagine how the comments would shake out if Vinny reached a dead end one episode, found the item he needed in the next, then wondered around for 2 hours not finding where he needs to go because these play sessions are a week or more separated.

The absolute truth is you can't please everyone all of the time, and I'm actually looking forward to the inverted castle and there are no "come back later" dead ends for Vinny to run into. Its going to be a great time of seeing Vinny hunt monsters, find OP weapons, and get killed by panthers, because seriously, fuck those panthers.

Wandering in from the wilderness to let you guys know that the roku archive for this episode is extremely buggy & the video continually lags behind the audio after just a few seconds.

Also jeez what's up with these comments?

@alucitary: I consider my self a very empathetic person, and I tried my best to see what you were seeing in the video and couldn't, so I think you're probably just projecting. Either way you're not being fair to either Vinny and Alex in the video or the audience watching it. All of the above are capable of expressing what they do or don't want to see in the video, and I guarantee that Vinny isn't somehow afraid to say it or unaware that he's even feeling it like you seem to think.

Wish they'd port this XBLA version to Steam, don't have a 360 or PS1 any more.

For the record, I'm mostly frustrated that chat is confusing things more than they are helping. Vinny wasn't heading towards dead ends...but he was pulled into various tangents by the chat especially in this episode. Also, it's not a dead end if you learn something & remember it for later...it's one of the great design elements in this game that observing & exploring will get you through the critical path to the good ending, while there are also secrets that are totally unnecessary and worth *finding* but cheapened if you just follow a checklist to see them.

But yeah, of course this is just a subjective view...I just think chat would be good for actually telling Vinny useful things (to be fair, this happens sometimes! like the controls the game doesn't tell you about) vs. telling him what specifically to do at any given time (esp. if it's going to be persistently flawed directions).

No one has an issue with the chat saying there's a cool secret in the room you're in, or helping when needed -- that enhances the viewing experience a lot -- but stuff like, "That's a boss room," and "this is a fake save room people were talking about earlier" or "when you're petrified the fairy breaks you out with a mallet," and stuff is pointless and not very fun, especially when that stuff is highly likely to be experienced over the natural course of the playthrough. I know for a fact Mr. Caravella loves discovering cool things like that himself, and it enhances the enjoyment to see his little face light up, ha. Those surprising moments should be treasured is all. Everything else is totally cool; I haven't minded the chat interaction aspect until this episode. No biggie, Vinny's the boss man. We're just saying we found it annoying as viewers and wonder if Alex could be a little more strict with what he relays. I don't think that's crazily unreasonable or overly dramatic.

The GB chat - like any other stream chat - should be kept in a closed Laptop and never be consulted for anything.

That's kind of the thing, Symphony completely changes what Castlevania has been about up to this point. "Ruins" is a matter of opinion, but the sense of discovery when I first played this game was magical.

I'd watch a Mega Man feature.

@agemyth: I know what you mean, though, the older games in this feature had a unique feel due to the unforgiving nature. Although watching Vinny replay a thing for an hour probably wasn't a great use of my time (and in fact, I usually just had it playing in the background as not much progress was happening). But the exhilarating highs were amazing.

SotN is one of my favorite games, so this whole feature has been a leisurely reminder of why it's so great.

Hoodie weather is bestest weather

They're doing it for an audience so taking chat's input is cool to do but it's the internet's way to try and be as repetitive and loud as it possibly can. If I had to pick I'd rather keep the chat than lose it.

@vinny: Are there any plans to bump the video bitrate? 1080p is noticeably sharper, but it seems to have made compression artifacts (in dark areas / gradients at least) a little more apparent.

AFAIK, GB videos have been at 60fps (the downloaded version of SOTN Pt. 1 is 60fps at least, so unless their cameras were 30fps but recording at 60fps [to allow for 60fps gameplay] there's no change). I think streams were at 30fps - I remember in Mario Party Party 5, and I think a stream of Jeff using Cheat Engine flashing characters could vanish completely but were fine in the archive - so maybe that's the difference you are seeing?

Vinny and Alex should go communications silent for the upside down half of the game. They understand the game now and they're familiar with the layout of the castle. Just let them explore and do their thing. Half the fun is watching them figure out the game for themselves, not frantically trying to follow the chat as they bark out orders on where to go next.

(I'm aware the following post is somewhat negative, so I'll preface this by saying I still enjoyed the video and that VinnyVania is one of the best features GB currently has. I'm just not a fan of how, and the extent to which, chat was used.)

feel like we've gone from Dan trying to give out a few too many hints in Part 1 to the chat giving out WAY too many hints (and "hints") in this part. I get it; you're watching live, and want to make sure Vinny and Alex see Cool Thing X, but here's the thing: stumbling into a hidden secret and discovering it is huge part in what makes it cool. Shouting "HEY THERE'S A COOL THING HERE" (which is what it feels like the chat is doing) massively undercuts that (and stuff like there being a boss through that door is just silly - it's not hidden, so Vinny'll get there at some point). Just think how much less fun the Segway Knight from Bloodlines would have been if prefaced with "Hey, just so you know, there's a poorly designed enemy coming up".

I don't mind going to chat for help if stuck, or concerned that something is going to lead to a dead end and waste a ton of time, but this video started to feel like someone following the world's most scattered walkthrough, and that there's less messing around/exploring/enjoyment with the game as a result. It might even make the game take longer, as chat is pulling in different directions depending on what is read.

For small streams, where you can interact with chat on a meaningful level, it can make some sense, but for the 1000 or so people the VinnyVania streams get I agree. It makes the archive worse (references to the chat don't make a huge amount of sense when you just have the video), and the stuff that's read is probably going to be from a random user who may or may not know what they are talking about. There's also going to be the "Pick up the purse" style "hints" which (I'm assuming Alex doesn't know SotN well enough to avoid all of them) have the potential to derail the video and waste time.

The other (I'd presume bigger) part of the audience is going to be watching the archive, or revisiting the series months/years later, so taking the (sometimes questionable) advice of chat doesn't really add a great deal IMO. Personally, I'd much rather it be a case of "Chat's there if you want it; we're just going to do our thing over here" (like the live episodes of MGSc. have been).

I don't know if they'll see this, but someone in chat next time tell them to go get the spirit orb from the marble area so they can actually see the damage numbers on every weapon they're using. Driving me crazy they're this deep in and haven't gotten it yet. I got it early in the game and drove me a little crazy just waiting as long as I did.

Like all things in life, chat too is best in moderation.

Use it if you need to ask some specific question, but don't just follow it as a guide.

Such a large part of sotn is the exploration and discovery, taking that away is watering down the experience significantly. Sadly the best discoveries are all part of the first half and that's all nearly done now.

He did call them out once but it didn't really change anything.

I wanna chime in again on this whole chat business. I'm not sure Alex or Vinny even read these comments but hey.

I feel like there should be a careful balance about what information from the chat makes it to Vinny and which information doesnt. Vinny is obviously good at this game by now, he's figured out most of the layout of the castle and I don't think people need to constantly tell him where to go next. If you keep an eye on the map, you will on your own volition explore these empty sections. Vinny on his own is notorious for this because of his 'clear the map' OCD which is a great thing in this game.

Especially for secrets, I don't think the chat should spell them all out for Vinny. And even if chat does, not sure Alex should always say something. Like previous posts have mentioned, finding a secret yourself actually makes it awesome instead of finding it because someone told you where the secret is. That probably diminishes the satisfaction you get from finding a secret. Also why even keep the fairy around if the chat is just gonna tell them all the secrets?

Now I'm sure that in order not to spend 15 hours on this game, Alex and Vinny decided to keep the hints from the chat as to make sure they aren't roaming around looking for a certain item or area for a long time and that's great. If Vinny gets stuck somewhere and doesnt know what to do or where to go then consulting the chat is probably a good idea!

When I watch these streams live it's always fun to participate in the chat and give out some general directions, I don't like to be too spoilery but nudging Vinny in the right direction seems ok to me. Just want to say that I have enjoyed every SoTN video so far. I feel like Vinny is doing a great job on his own, but could use a bit less direction and not to be told every secret :P.

I do want them to pick up the damage numbers relic though, because yeah thats bugging me as well :(.

Oh man, there are two in-game references to The Children of Hurin in this video! That's my favourite story in The Silmarillion. Castlevania is alright.

There's a lot. Mablung Sword, Crissaegrim, Gurthang, Mormegil, Sword of Hador, Fist of Tulkas, Dragon Helm, Ring of Feanor, Ring of Varda, and Nauglamir are in there. That stuff slipped by the lawyers in the 90s, but I'm surprised they haven't been renamed for re-releases.

@gregalor: I'd have been shocked if there wasn't a Gurthang in there considering the ones I spotted. That's cool though.

If I had to guess its because the rights to make stuff based on The Silmarillion are still with the Tolkien family. IIRC, they weren't part of the package Hobbit/LoTR deal (I may be wrong there).