@bigboss1911: that isnt why those (massively succesful) things failed though. Subverting expectations is arguably the best things about them, they went "bad" when they weren't consistent in characterization, especially GoT.

So far in TLOU2 does not make this sin.

Those things being successful is kinda irrelevant. Star Wars will always be a big draw and GOT had the audience because it was (up until that point) a very well written show. Throwing your audience for a curve ball can work if the writing underneath is good, like MGS 2 or Spec Ops The Line. Everything I've seen of TLOU 2 would definitely qualify as trying to subvert expectations, but the payoff or justification for it just isn't there.

@bigboss1911: The entire game pretty much sets up that "revenge bad, because it is an endless cycle" and yet somehow when the protagonist decides to stop the cycle of violence that lead to the death of her father figure, its now bad writing.

Serious, I have my quibbles with the game, but that the whole revenge plan is terrible and everyone would be better off if they walked away. None of this is cool. Killing these people for revenge gets more terrible and harmful for Ellie. The idea that at the end she will say "This won't change anything" does is the path we set on when she left the camp. Sorry if you didn't see the signs along the way.

Before I get into the game itself, I have to say the accessibility options are incredible. I don't have any issues beyond slightly near-sighted vision but it's awesome that they put all of that right up front before the game even begins. I also greatly appreciate that they didn't tie any achievements to difficulty, and they broke out what makes the game more or less difficult by category to allow you to customize your play experience. I chose Hard for a difficulty because it's a weird tick I have with Naughty Dog games (I usually play games on Normal/Easy) but I love that they let me specifically set Dina's A.I. to aggressive ("Very Light") because it just helps her feel like more of a true partner rather than another teenage tag-along. It doesn't mean she'll start encounters, but it does mean she's far more likely to end them, and I'm okay with that.

I'm still waiting for the bad turn, I guess. The game doesn't feel nearly as focused as the original was, and it certainly wears the weight of all that game's accomplishments on its shoulders, but I'm not seeing how this is such a dramatic betrayal of it either just yet. So far my only real complaint has been that they lead with that downtown Seattle area early, then follow it with something that feels very similar but doesn't have a map and does have a specific end goal, but clearing the map in the previous area was so engaging it's hard not to compel yourself to do the same in the next area...which seems like it has constantly respawning patrols? I wound up scrambling through the second half of that area hoping I didn't miss anything as a result.

Anyway, I'm a decent amount past that now, 7-ish hours in by the save timer, and like I said I'm really enjoying everything here. The environmental storytelling has been incredible and the one-on-one interaction is on par with everything from the past two Uncharteds and first Last of Us. I still love how balanced and visceral the combat is, though just as with the last game I often find the clicker moments to be a bit of a buzzkill compared to the human combat, but that mostly just comes down to them forcing you to move super slowly on Hard and harder difficulties when all I want to do is get to the next story beat sometimes. On that aspect, part of me worries they did their One Big Thing too early and sometimes the dialogue between Ellie and Dina makes me feel like I was supposed to have gone back and watched that E3 trailer before I started playing the game, plus on a super basic level the point of this story is inherently less interesting, but again I'm still just so taken aback by the amount of emotion and gravitas this team is able to draw out of its actors and draw onto its polygons.

I know a lot of people bounced off of this game because of its grimdark human frailty message and Severely Of Its Time context, but I really needed something like this to break up the monotony of this year so far. I can't wait to keep playing and discussing it.

FWIW, I’m not trying to spoil anything but I think that you probably need to reach a specific point in the game before you’ll understand the frustrations that many people have with the story. You’ll know when you’ve reached that point, and if you don’t know if you’re there yet then you aren’t. And no, I’m not talking about the end of the prologue.

@jamjyo: Woah dude, ok. That wasn't at all what I was trying to say but going all "hurr durr" is real good discussion".

I didn't express an opinion because I didn't play the game (and don't plan to, because I know what kind of stuff I'm into), but I've just been reading the discussion on the like 3 different threads and various places because it's kinda interesting.

The "bad writing" complaint also feels slightly separate from complaints about the "bad story". Admittedly, my reaction to it is more of a "me" thing than their fault. It's a complaint that gets levied against a lot of stuff (I'll say, especially Japanese stuff) that doesn't necessarily seem... Fair? Some stuff is just written differently (in a broader sense and also moment-to-moment dialog, which I guess is usually more what I'm thinking of when people talk "writing" specifically) and works more for some people. So throwing out "it's bad writing" just feels lazy and always like it's some kind of "gotcha!"

It's not necessarily just this thread, but a broader thing in media discussion. Someone else mentioned the "cinemasins-style" critique popping up a lot, which I think is about right.

@efesell: Yeah this. I implore anyone to seek it out.

I think I've hit my breaking point with Hard difficulty. The other faction is entering the picture and they are just throwing way too many enemies into each encounter. I don't even think it's that the game is too hard as much as I'm just losing patience with these encounters and really want to keep the story moving. I've run out of healing items and have to make my way through the carpark set from the gameplay demo and I just don't think I have it in me, I'm not clever enough getting in and out of cover or a good enough aim to make up for getting caught. I just noticed there's a Rockstar-like lock-on option I may give a try before I hit the nuclear option and bump it down to Easy for a bit.

I'm mostly getting restless because I'm now 12 hours into the game and I really want to know what everyone is so furious about. I feel like I've hit about four major story beats at this point and all of them have rung very true to these characters as I understand them, so either the Big Bad Problem with this game is right around the corner or it's a total non-issue for me. I'm starting to go stir crazy trying to figure out which it is.

I'm also not a huge fan of most of the new mechanics they've started introducing. The arrows just seem needlessly cumbersome, doubly so because of my lack of health items and triply so because the bleed damage is random. The rest I completely understand and I think if I had more patience for it I could get real good, but as it is I'm stuck trying to play this game like the first one instead of using all the new tools and scrambling from location to location so when I get stuck in a situation like I am now, I start fumbling for new answers and just getting wrecked until I throw up my hands and just sprint like hell through the scenario to the next checkpoint.

Again, so far though this seems like a truly fantastic game whose only real flaw might be trying to do a little bit too much and feeling a little meandering due to its areas being more like several discrete hubs rather than the more guided experience of The Last of Us. I just played it for damn near the entire day and the only reason I'm finally setting it down is I can't justify faking more energy with another cup of coffee.

I loved it. People can have differing opinions. Don't let them get you down. Enjoy whatever it is that you like in life and move on 😊

It just keeps getting more fun to me. I bumped the difficulty up from hard to survivor because I had plenty of resources and enemy vision is comically weak Still pretty weak in survivor but better.

My only issue with the difficulty setting is how useless your partner is. It’s very immersion breaking. I know could customize that setting but then it changes the difficulty. I’d rather they make your partner good at all difficulties and add more enemies in encounters where you have your partner.

@nodima: You will know when you hit the point that has made everyone big mad. I will say that if you're getting restless now and starting to feel like the pacing is dragging...you should probably bump down the difficulty. I personally didn't hate the story or anything and the big...thing...didn't really anger me from a plot perspective, but the game's pacing issues do not get better as it goes along.

The true horror of The Last of Us Part II comes from the lack of an editor.

Gameplay and graphics-wise, it is great. Story-wise, it is terrible.

@jamjyo: there are is a lot of commentary outside of Giantbomb that hates the game with a righteous passion that should be reserved for sex criminals.

That is disheartening to many of us because such intense desire for the game to fail is a desire to regress gaming as a medium.

I was expecting The Last of Us 2 to be very grim almost misery porn with the reactions especially after Bakalar's comments in the Beastcast its not even that violent to me, so far its been really fun and surprising how many joyfull moments it has and the story is really well told, nothing shocking atm.

I'm also about 10 hours in, and I'm also enjoying it. I feel like it's just a fine, good game. Nothing is blowing me away, and nothing is so brutal and gory or heavy or bleak, or even terrible or poorly done that has stuck out to me.

I feel like everybody with an opinion in writing about this game either oversells or undersells aspects of it. Like the thinkpieces about the violence and terrible nature of the characters feels a little overthought, and things like that. I kind off feel like this game is not more complicated that "I'm a good but dark game" and isn't worth the 3 hour podcasts or review bombs or anything that people have devoted to it.

I recognize that this is just my own take and that's fine. But I'm waiting for a game like this to be worth all the hype/complaint it gets (looking at you God of War and Control) but so far none of these games have been worth all of that to me.

Edit: I forgot to mention this but I think this game is a prime candidate for ripping off the nemesis system. I think the game tries and mostly fails to give various deaths a real sense of weight, but because this is a video game and not real life, I think a great way to have done that would have been to incorporate the nemesis system.

Bingo. I absolutely, cannot fucking stand cinemasins and a large part of that is because of its refusal to actually engage with art, and instead make cynical snide remarks about "plot holes." It's the laziest form of criticism there is, and I see it a lot with media that's accused of "betraying the fanbase:" The Dark Knight, The Last Jedi, and now The Last of Us 2.

Can this just turn into a thread were we bitch about cinemasins and how they are just super-fans with youtube poisoning in their brains? And the people who get upset about military tactics in fantasy movies, but are really just saying "That wouldn't work in Total War!"?

On the topic of the game, I'm enjoying it so far. Though I had to pull the trigger and spoil myself because my fears of who would have to pay for Ellie's terrible revenge plan was really bothering me. Once I got that out of the way, the game is enjoyable.

My main critique is that this game is way to long for the story it is telling the way it is telling it. Everything about the game is beautiful and there is some real though behind the sets and collectibles feeding into the narrative. The constant reminder that Ellie was and could be a nerdy, awkward girl whole likes comics, sci-fi, music and dating women. From the trading cards she collects out of habit or the environments like the run down arcade. This is highlighted by the opposed events in the museum vs the aquarium, where Ellie is going to effective ruin a happy memory by overlying the context with the terrible things that will happen in the aquarium. There is some real good craft to those scenes, it just takes to many hours of murder to get there. There are whole scenes they could cut right out of the game and it would be ok.

Also, if the game rewarded or systematized you sneaking past more people, it would be better for it. If the game just told you "Hey, you don't need to loot every area. If you search during the slow times you will find all the unlockables and the game will make sure you have enough stuff" it would go along way.

I fucking love it also I think Abby is my favorite character. Never cared for Joel. I thought the ending was beautiful

It's a culture war battlefield that people latched onto when the E3 2018 trailer dropped that picked up a huge amount of steam when the leaks hit. So much misinformation has been spread that gained traction. People who haven't played the game still think a homophobic cult hunt down Ellie and Dina in Jackson and that Abby is transgender.

I'm still processing the story, but I think overall I'm positive on it. Not everything works, but at least they took a big swing, hit or miss. One thing is for sure though, parts of this game are way too long and kill the pacing. This game seriously needed an editing pass to tighten it up.

I still miss the generation gap between the characters. In the first game, it helped elevate Ellie to a maturity beyond her years. She had to grow up quick. Pairing her up with Dina allows her to act her age a bit but, as a guy in his mid-30s, that's just going to pass me by. Especially when they might as well have the same voice.

@taccyp: I feel like almost every game needs an editing pass, except Chrono Trigger, that game is paced and structured perfectly, everything else is on a scale of horribly dragged out to slightly too long.

You should probably check out "Cinema Wins" if you havent yet :)

Big lol at people thinking Abby is transgender. Nah, keyboard-bigot, she is just in fit fighting shape and ready to end anyone. That is one of the ways a woman looks when she trains for the sole purpose of ending people.

Of course these are the same chuckle fucks that say western developers make ugly women, while Japanese developers make the “good, attractive female characters.” And then point to Tifa from the FF7 remake.

@plan6: I'm not sure if people think Abby is transgender, though I definitely don't think the game suggests she is, even though most women probably couldn't get that kind of arm size and definition without some kind of enhancement. Maybe she's on steroids or she's just genetically gifted though. It's not like video games don't feature a lot of exaggerated male physiques (for all of his talk of honor Ryu is 100% on the juice!)

On the other hand Lev is definitely transgendered, and I think that a lot of the transphobic conversation about this game is actually about him, and then that got mixed up with people who haven't gotten to that character yet so they think that it's about Abby.

@bigsocrates:She definitely is NOT, but assholes latched onto that idea because it was mentioned in the leaks and perpetuated as fact by angry youtubers.

As you mentioned the issue comes up later with Lev, but the game doesn't beat you over the head with it.

Finished it yesterday after some 30 hours. Enjoyed the story and really liked the gameplay! Sneaking around in the grass and taking out enemies one by one felt amazing at times. They maybe could've cut out some bits here and there, because even if I did really like playing it, I was starting to get exhausted by the end.

Your not alone in enjoying it! Im 85% through my 2nd playthough on the hardest difficulty and I think the game is an amazing sequel, I loved Joel in 1 but also recognised hes a terrible person so his death while sooner than expected felt like it was a long time coming. I see so many complaints about Joel and Tommy wouldnt be tricked that easily, well me personally if I was trapped in a building with a much larger armed group, id also play nice. I guess haters expect Joel to turn his aimbot on and kill everyone in sight. As soon as Manny spat on him and told him to burn in hell I could see how much the group hated him which made me very interested to learn why (Although I think you can guess if youve played the first game). Also when they were argueing about whether or not to kill Ellie and Tommy (obvious even with the muffled voices) you could see that the group were no different than ours, doing terrible things but also trying to not lose all of their humanity.

As for the rest for the rest of the game I love the balls on Druckman for making us play Abby and ending up liking her more than Ellie by the end! Seeing as Ellie killed plenty of innocents along her revenge path where as Abby made the final call to spare Tommy and Ellie (Although Ellie does redeem herself letting Abby survive). I was worried that Ellie would kill Abby and learn nothing but I thought the ending was very satisfying! Ive never had a game make me feel sick during gameplay before like I did in both Ellie vs Abby fights which is part of hte reason I think this game elevates videogame storytelling/execution to new heights!

Also the general structure of the game was a great change of pace, I was worried pre release that it would be more cuts to black after any intense moment followed by another season and a new location. Which worked great for the first game but would be far too predictable if done again.

My only real gripe would be that maybe there should have been another open world area since the first one was so good!

So for me personally 10/10. Great piece of art that makes bold decisions and keeps the formula fresh, Druckman pours his heart and soul into these games and for people to honestly think he, Troy Baker (You know, the guy who actually plays Joel who cares more about his character than your average player) and Ashley Johnson havent scrutinized and discussed every detail over the last 7 years is just rediculous. Most of the "bad writing" comments must think George R R Martin wrote the first game and this new guy Neil came in and ruined everything! Not my Joel!

But thats just my (and all of my friends who have also played it's) opinion! Only negative stuff im seeing seems to be online.

I just finished it last night and genuinely loved it in the end. Some pieces were hard to play emotionally; however, they were incredibly effective. Don't want to get spoiler-y here, otherwise I would elaborate. The Kinda Funny people did a spoiler cast that is worth listening to after you finish it. I hope GB does one soon too.

I finished a day ago and enjoyed most of it. My main complaint is the pacing and the "final encounter" is a bit of a slog. You pretty much know where they story beat is going, so I don't see the reason to put in a battle with a fail state. That and the dogs are my minor quibbles.

I'm not too familiar with Upper Echelon, but I agree with his video review below. He called out Sony and ND for their bullshit marketing, how the story/characters were bad and manipulative, while giving credit to the great graphics and mostly good gameplay. The game is far from a 0/10 and a 10/10.

https://youtu.be/A5bw4CmLZcY

Well, viewing the videos he made for the last four months, including "The Exposed Journalist Cabal - Gamings Political Gatekeepers" I'm going go out on a limb and say he sucks. I'll go so far as to call him a alt-right-grifter that isn't worth anyone's time. But I am sure he is loving the views on the gaming outrage of the moment.

@plan6: Yeah, he popped up on my YouTube recommended feed a while ago so I watched a couple videos of his. He definitely left a pretty crappy impression with what I saw so I personally wouldn't put much stock in his opinions

@intradictus: My favorite part of finding a new alt right trash child is being reminded that they all use the exact same language like "Journalist Cabal". These chuckle fucks are so dull they just parrot each other while suckling the outrage views.

@plan6: I occasionally watch videos from people similar to him just to see what the talking points are, and it is amazing how much the exact same phrases and arguments on subjects are used, nearly word for word. Which is especially ironic when the term "hive mind" gets used as a way to avoid countering certain things they're talking about. Obviously people can agree on things, but if you can't put what you feel into your own words or literally just saying that something you disagree with is "objectively" wrong or bad I find that pretty telling

It's so easy to tell that people that say "the writing is bad" or "characters don't make sense" haven't played through the game. Especially when you can go back and see they were making these statements when the game had only been out for a few hours.

There are critical character motivation reveals through the entire game. These characters so insanely well fleshed out. In terms of having a narrative structured to investigate its themes, there aren't many games better written this.

It's very slowly paced. It requires a lot of patience. But so do a lot of great works of art.

@drbroel: yeah, its hard to go into it without spoilers but a lot of people very clearly have just watched "the scene" and very little else, i don't care if someone doesn't like the game but when some criticisms sound like something cinemeasins would put in one of their videos i tend to not want to discuss things with them haha

Yeah....I think I got to "the scene". And if that's what supposed to piss me off, or prove that the writing in this game is "terrible," shit maybe you guys need to just stick with Call of Duty level of game writing.

It's astounding how many people missed the fucking point of this game, and that tells me that people missed the point of the original game. Considering all the "they did my boy Joel dirty" youtube vids, I'm pretty certain that's exactly what it is. I'm probably going to make a thread on this whenever I finish it but holy shit you guys just didn't get it.

No wonder some of you thought FF7 Remake was subversive. You don't want anything new or challenging. You just want the same old bullshit repackaged in a shiny new box.

because most of these idiots get a woody whenever "SJW" is mentioned, and these grifters know that. It's all about money. Ironic considering they generally accuse gaming media who likes the game as being "paid off."

@kemuri07: If you want a laugh, go into the comments for some of those vids and find someone "fixing" how they handled that. They all invariably lead to someone spitting up the most formulaic, Hollywood b.s. and it will have 750+ likes on the comment and people saying "you should be the new head writer for naughty dog."

And at this point I almost wish Abby was trans, just to melt some minds, but at the same time it would just get those guys more money

@kemuri07: For most of us who don't like the game, the golf club scene was a problem, but it's not the only or even the biggest problem. The scene could've been done in a more tasteful way and without dumbing down characters though. I think RDR2 handles a similar situation and theme in a much better way.

@deathstriker: Yeah you’re gonna have to explain that one.

What’s a more tasteful way? How are the characters “dumbed down?”

@deathstriker: The last of us, well known for being a "tasteful" game lol

Part of what bugs me about the discourse surrounding The Last Of Us 2--ignoring the bad faith arguments from alt-right fuck boys--is its near obsession with the violence and grim nature of the game. Yes, TLOU2 is a very serious game in which people enact horrible acts of violence against each other.

But focusing on that, or calling the game misery porn, ignores and dismisses the subtle, slower moments of the game. In between all of the action is a lot of downtime, and while I've seen reviews claim that this ruins the pacing of the game--the glacial pacing is one of the reasons why this game is so damn effective. Not only do they act as breathing room between the truly intense moments of the game, but they serve as world building and necessary character beats that makes the oncoming tragedies hit harder.

@kemuri07: Going by TLOU1, Joel and Tommy were not behaving like themselves in the early part of this game. Them saving an armed stranger is a little iffy, but okay. Them immediately turning their back to her, hell no. Them going into a house with 6 to 8 armed strangers, giving out their name, saying where they live and that it's close by, hell no again. Not even the dumb characters in The Walking Dead would do that. Speaking of The Walking Dead, Joel's death just feels like a cut and paste of Negan's baseball bat kill of Glenn, but even that mostly mediocre show was smart enough to know that if Negan had done that to Rick or Daryl it would piss off and bother fans too much to try to redeem Negan later.

Joel could've died and there would've been no backlash, but them killing him in such a disrespectful way and so in early in the game when the trailers/commercials they released were falsely edited to make it look like Joel was there pissed off a lot of people (the Youtube link I put in this thread shows examples). Hypothetically, if Abby had captured Ellie and her girlfriend then sent her friends to Jackson saying we have two of yours, Joel better come to us unarmed and alone if he wants them safely back. Joel gives himself up, Abby shoots him in the head, Ellie is tied up and can't do anything. That way Joel isn't brutally killed, Abby creates some goodwill because she's not gleefully smashing in the head of a beloved character and it shows she has some honor by keeping her promise of not hurting Ellie. In the game it's really silly that Ellie and Tommy survive the golf club scene, it just feels like plot armor and the idea they murder someone with clothes on that identify their group and giveaway their location.

We're used to main characters dying, was there a huge backlash when both Red Dead Redemption games did it, Game of Thrones killing Ned Stark and other heroic characters, The Walking Dead game and Lee? No, but there is here since they handled it like Eli Roth was directing the scene, they make us play as the murderer for 10+ hours, and there's a lot of artificial BS scenarios to make Abby look better than Ellie. Abby owns and plays with a dog, while Ellie shoots and shanks them. Abby didn't kill a pregnant woman while Ellie does. There are some cheap and obvious tricks to try to get Abby to be likable.

I think people miss the point of TLOU1 in a different way. Joel didn't deny the world a cure, he denied the world a possibility of a cure. Ellie wasn't the first immune person they would've been killing and experimenting on. Maybe she would've led to something or maybe not at all. They were going to kill a little girl for something they believed might work, so it's not some black/white situation. We see in our real world that cures aren't easy. Even if they have a cure, I think it's too late for their world. Their problem is a lack of resources and people to kill all the infected and different human factions killing each other, I don't know if a cure fixes either of those problems. Now if they could create a biological weapon that would only kill the infected, that sounds effective and what they need. So I disagree with the common premise that Joel ruined the world, he's evil, and blah blah blah. If the fireflies had talked to Ellie, gave her all the info, and let her choose then that's a different story, but they were going to do it all without her permission.

@deathstriker: I finished TLOU1 thinking the chance of a vaccine was probably low and that the fireflies sure did Joel dirty both in the creep that was watching over him and how they were just gonna ice him and carve up Ellie without her consent.

TLOU2 contextualizes it somewhat by making it more clear a vaccine was very possible and that the fireflies handled the situation badly but that Joel was also selfish and wrong.

@arcitee: I think it's a somewhat gray situation, which is what makes it interesting and TLAU2 retcons things a bit. Naughty Dog has lost some important staff/storytellers between the first game and this game. TLAU2 situation reminds me of Mass Effect 3, I hope Naughty Dog isn't going to fall off a cliff like Bioware eventually did.

@arcitee: Weather the vaccine was possible or not wasn't the issue it was Ellie's choice and Joel took it from her, it also would have given her life meaning.