I chose that last option.

The fact that I still can't play new Pinball Arcade tables because of Microsoft's bullshit is largely responsible for the bitterness and cynicism of the last option.

They will continue to get exclusives that ultimately are great "indie" games.

Below seems to be using "The Cloud" or servers since it's a persistent world.

and that's about the only indie game i can think of on the Xbox One.

also "Indie Plan Reveal Soon" from Microsoft’s European developer relations

Yep, that's Microsoft's way of expressing their love for the devs. They're like the mob, their deals have severe consequences.

That double dragon game which came out makes me agree with you guys.

None of the above. Microsoft did a reasonable job on the 360, but I don't think they'll do as well on the X-One.

But mark my words, if Sony does for indies what they claim they will, the PSN indie store will be as atrocious as the iPhone app store or the XBL Indie channel. You've welcomed Silver Dollar Games, Sony. I hope you're satisfied.

The guy from Capy in the last E3 Bombcast seemed kind of bummed about the situation. I feel like some indies may have been recruited from MS with awesome deals a few years ago. Then the devs actually found out all of the weird shit with the XOne and by then it was too late. They're exclusive to MS and that's it.

Just me reading into it, of course, but there was definitely a strange vibe.

It's funny that you should mention them, as it sounds like the people at that company have pulled their heads out of their asses and actually made a good game. Apparently, it won Dream.Build.Play.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=619556

Sony can still say no to any game that they don't want on their console.

I have little reason to think they'll do a good job with it. Which is a shame, because while it wasn't exactly 'indie' as such, they're a big part of why we're able to have smaller download-only titles on consoles today.

Think about the abundance of amazing quick look material though!

Wha? Maybe 5 years ago, but I can't imagine what problem you'd have with it now. There is an abundance of shit on the app store to be sure, but there are also tons of fantastic, diverse games that wouldn't exist without that platform. They have a good front page showing what's new, and it's simple to search though what's popular so you can avoid the pointless sketchy stuff.

Self publishing plus an easily navigable interface on Sony's end would be equally as successful. When you have an open marketplace, you get the shit, but you also empower the good stuff. The alternative is to have a stranglehold on chosen developers, take all of their control of their own games away, and then shove some other indies in a trash can somewhere. (aka, Microsoft's way) No thanks.

I do believe that the way the two PSN stores have functioned it's a little worrisome without a fully in-depth look at how the store works and how it'll help indies not get buried. PSN Store is fucking atrocious right now for a variety of reasons. Well, the PS3 version of the store. The web browser version is fantastic.

havent seen or heard enough from either side to be sure who would be better. sony did have that whole segment saying they would be great about indie games, but microsoft has done that in the past and nobody seems to like what theyve done.

i remain skeptical

I think they'll make deals with a couple of Indie devs so they have something to point to when people criticize them, but other than that I believe they are underestimating the appeal of those games.

They'll make deals with people they can exploit for exclusive rights

MS lets devs put games on Steam, look at most every summer of XBL game is available elsewhere. To me it's Sony who doesn't allow the devs to publish anywhere else.

How about we go based on what happened this current generation?

Sony can talk it up all they want, but Live arcade had a much larger selection of quality titles. Not to say PSN didn't have great games like Journey, but downloadable titles were better on Live. Especially the summer of arcade. A lot of games went there first and many never went to PSN. If they did, they were sometimes years out like castle crashers.

People don't stop and think what regulation at some level provides. It does a good job of making sure complete trash doesn't end up in he the store. You guys are on Giantbomb, I'm sure you've seen that game Motorbike that these guys quick looked. There is nothing anywhere near that horrible on xbox live arcade because Microsoft with all their rules and regulations would never let something like that on the store. That game was broken and it's still being sold on the PSN store. Xbox Live got trials and PSN got a handful of terrible clones that shouldn't even be allowed on the store.

I'm definitely interested in playing indie games, but these days it has just become another thing people claim they care about when they really don't. How many of those indie games will be creative original ideas? Or will they be generic 2D pixel art platforming clones like so many indie games are.

I'm all for supporting indie devs when they are making something interesting, I don't believe in throwing any support to people who just want to use the title Indie like the word itself automatically means their games are something special.

I don't think that you're aware of the situation that I'm referring to. Farsight Games is the developer of The Pinball Arcade. A couple of tables were released as DLC in a game that was built on and promoted with the promise of new tables every month. Their publisher, Crave Entertainment, went bankrupt in 2012.

Because of this, EVERY other platform allowed the developer to continue to publish DLC on their own without a publisher, but Microsoft did not, because Microsoft does not allow developers to self-publish. Because of this, there are 10 tables available on the Xbox 360, and there are at least 20 available on every other platform.

This includes both of Farsight's successful kickstarter projects for two of the best Pinball Tables of all time, Twilight Zone and Star Trek: The Next Generation, both of which are not available on the 360, despite being available on literally every single other platform. And now that Farsight's kickstarter for Terminator 2: Judgement Day has succeeded, that will be another great table that will never appear on a Microsoft console unless they change their anti-developer stance.

http://pinballarcadefans.com/showthread.php/194-Latest-NEWS-And-INFORMATION-From-FarSight-Studios-Concerning-The-Pinball-Arcade

I hope they will be more pro-indie in the future. That Unity deal seems to be a good sign, and the restructuring of the company will definitely bring new things to the table.

New things, sure. Welcome things? That's to be determined.

Who gives a shit? Its not out yet and this is just flamebait.

How are official Microsoft policies--and the opinion of a game developer who was hurt by those policies--"flamebait"? Is anything negative said about a console manufacturer now "flamebait"?

Microsoft's Red Ring of death. Flamebait?

Sony allowing hackers to break into Playstation Network. Flamebait?

People don't like kinect. Flamebait?

Sony now charging for online play on PS4. Flamebait?

I don't see where you're getting at. Sony and Microsoft do the same thing. Games like Limbo, Braid, Dust: An Elysian Tail and Castle Crashers go on Steam, but they take like a year. Same goes for indie games on PSN. Some of those PSN games even launch on other platforms at the same time as their PSN release. Unless they have an exclusive contract with those indie studios like for Journey & The Unfinished Swan, of course they won't show up on other platforms. I'm sure MS has exclusive contracts with Behemoth and Capybara.

If you're trying to argue it, the difference is that those things that have actually happened or are related to hardware, but your trying to argue the same thing with an opinion piece. Not saying either of you are right but the things you mentioned are radically different.

I get the impression that Microsoft only really cares about indie exclusives, and the rest of the indie games are just junk to throw in the store and ignore.

But that's just a gut impression.

No kidding! Although, I suppose with 59 releases one of them has to turn out.

And, sure, Sony can deny any game from release on their platform, but I don't think they will. Microsoft wasn't very supportive of indie releases on the 360, but even on that platform the community members were the only curators. There seems to be a vague T-rating limit to the sexuality and M-rating limit to the violence, but other than that Microsoft doesn't seem to care what's released. With Sony claiming they'll actively support indie releases, they'll have a difficult time if they have more regulation or controlled curation than Microsoft will have had on their then-old platform.

Opinion is opinion, but Microsoft's polices resulting in the inability of Farsight to continue publishing new Pinball Arcade tables on the 360 is as much of a fact as anything else I listed.

Glad we saw things through.

I'd like to add to this conversation and say that what Sony is doing with the PS4 is pretty much what they're doing now with the PS3 & Vita. Indie devs self publish on PSN right now and the store isn't filled with crap like what the Xbox store supposedly has. Unless you personally find a game shitty, nothing on PSN will be garbage. So I highly doubt that the PS4's store will turn out like the iOS app store. To me, this announcement of self publishing is just marketing stuff. It's already happening on PS3 & Vita but it was never announced to this scale.

I think that the ill will that indy devs currently feel toward Microsoft at this stage has to be reflective of policies in place for the Xbone. So, I think that the system will have a slow start where smaller games are concerned. I don't think that the process of becoming more indie-friendly is so complicated that it will be difficult for them to do an about face if that proves to matter down the road, however.

@awesomeusername: I've never seen anything that indie for the PS3. Nothing less produced than Hotline Miami and Spelunky, anyway. There's a vast difference between Avatar Drop and Hotline Miami, and Sony will do a lot of coughing into its fist if that quality/depth limit continues to the PS4.

Indie games are largely lame and forgettable. I could care less if I never see another one. Even Fez could not bring me to like anything coming out of the indie community. I tried and it just doesn't do it for me. I even went online to check out the big twist. The equivilent of reading ahead or getting the cliff notes. It just didn't grab me.

Of course, it's only my opinion. I agree that Microsoft is not reaching out to the indie community with sincerity and I don't believe they will change that stance. They are a business. They are into making money. Indies don't pay the bills.

Y-yeah, how can they allow this "quality/depth" issue to persist? Where are the avatar games, Sony?! WHERE ARE THEY?!

Are you really going to try and go for the whole stuttering thing?

I think you misinterpreted my negative feelings as positive. I like a reasonable quality base for my games. Hotline Miami meets my standards; Avatar Drop does not.

Microsoft allowed anything that passed lax community curation onto their indie store as long as the developer could front $100 - incidentally, the same amount Apple requires for indie development. Microsoft did very little to support or encourage independents to their platform, but they also did very little to place an expectation of quality. Sony claims that they'll be actively supporting indie developers during this next generation, and that means when Uncraft Me 2 wants to release (no pun intended) on the PS4, Sony will either have to support it or backpeddle on their current stance.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather How to Get a Girlfriend die a horrible death beneath a Sony curator's boot.

Yes, I am going to try and for it.

Excuse my poor grammar. I promise ill try my best next time.

I'm getting the impression that microsoft doesn't know what they are doing until they start doing it.

@mlarrabee: I did. I had a totally different visual for coughing into the fist than the one you were suggesting.

@connerthekewlkid: Thanks for contributing! :)

I think they probably culture-wise are incapable of understanding indies.This is a company that historically has crushed smaller competitors into non-existence.

If they want to really change the perception than they need to put their money where their mouth is like Sony seems to have done. Talk is cheap, M$ needs to prove they mean it.

Im just doing my part!

You mean like Sony does? At lest MS Indie games actually show up other places like steam.

plz

I dunno where this is coming from. The only games from PSN that haven't appeared on Steam due to Sony's influence have been developers who have signed exclusivity deals with them. If you are referring to the fact that the 360 and PC have similar design architecture which makes porting easier, how do you explain titles that appear simultaneously on the PC and PSN? Just because a developer doesn't want to put the work in to port to PSN doesn't mean Sony is telling them not to.

MS is a big, evil corporation, but Lorne Lanning is also a noted crazy person.

@ravenlight: yup, they are a big evil corporation. Despite that their chairman managed to become one of the greatest philanthropists in the history of mankind.

Anyway, I'm sure there will be great indie games on both platforms. Sony might end up having more games overall, but they will probably have a ton of trash as well. The more you open up a platform, the easier it is for anyone to put their games there. Even when they don't deserve it. I'm not sure Microsofts policies are ideal either, but they do tend to block a lot of garbage that ends up on PSN.

Either way, I just don't care that much about Sony's big indie push. Even if Microsoft comes back and makes better policies, it won't be a big deal to me personally. I'm buying these consoles for games that will hopefully take advantage of their power. Pixel art and simpler looking games can be great and have their place, but it's just not as important to me from a strictly hardware perspective.

I think an important thing to discuss is what exactly indie means these days. By definition indie just means and independent developer, but these days it's more about developers that don't have publishers and a very small team. Thinking back to the past generation, my favorite games were much bigger in scope than what you would call indie. Journey, castle crashers, shadow complex, trials, geometry wars just to name a few. Not sure any of those would classify as indie.

@mlarrabee: I don't see why Sony would be backpedaling if they deny bad games. Just because indies aren't forced to go through a publisher that doesn't mean that Sony is going to automatically accept every piece of shit that gets thrown at them.

Where's "They did a good job in the past, but then they got lazy" ?

@warlordpayne said:

Microsoft didn't make any big claims about being pro-indie during the 360's life, but they let anything and everything get onto the XBL Indie store. Any fourteen year-old kid with vague understanding of XNA, a knack for drawing softcore hentai, and a hundred bucks from mum was allowed on Microsoft's platform. Sony is claiming to be pro-indie this time around, and if they have stricter curation or tougher requirements than Microsoft had last time, it most certainly will be a problem for both indie developers and Sony. Steam Greenlight, anyone?

@syed117: What exactly do you think is garbage on PSN? There's a ton of great indie games on PSN and still more on the way. Just to list a few great titles on PSN (Some are also on Steam) are:

• Hotline Miami
• Thomas Was Alone
• Journey
• The Unfinished Swan
• Flower
• Guacamelee!
• Dragon Fantasy Book 1 (Book 2 incoming)
• Papo & Yo
• Frobisher Says!
• Retro City Rampage
• Sound Shapes
• Tales from Space

And much more. Now those are just a couple of great PSN games. Literally every indie on PSN has appeal to people. As I said in an above post, unless you personally find a certain game bad, there's no straight up garbage on PSN and there won't be on the PS4. So I don't see where you're getting at.

As I said before, Sony is doing the same thing with the PS4 as they are with PS3 & Vita. Just letting it be known to all developers that they can self-publish now. They aren't going to let the store be littered with crap. There's a process to get into PSN and if they see a game that is plain shit, they won't allow it. No matter how pro-indie they are. If they allowed whatever, then there would be a ton of shit games on PSN right now but there aren't. There won't be any difference to how games get on PSN now and in the future.