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    Age of Wonders

    Game » consists of 2 releases. Released Nov 11, 1999

    A turn-based strategy game often compared to Heroes of Might and Magic

    Age of Wonders + Arcanum: Week 2

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    ahoodedfigure

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    Edited By ahoodedfigure

    Arcanum: Week 2

     
    It's been a bit slow after reaching Caladon. I'd confused Caladon with Dernholm, and was surprised to see a sizeable city filled with yet more secrets.  I may hate things about the engine and the inflexible quests, but man, if Arcanum is anything it's generous with its content.  
     
    I'm now maxed out, with several undistributed points set aside for when I feel a strong need to boost something. I've stopped putting points into crafting skills because I know that I can buy textbooks to cumulatively supplement the skill; the only thing I'll need to do that for is if I find that one of the base inventions that you only get through leveling a crafting skill will be necessary for something I consider to be indispensable.  Since I have a decent rifle, pistol, and flamesplosion weapon from out of space and time, I'm not too worried.  
     
    I've started getting rid of junk, stashing it in known locations and selling it otherwise.  This put me in a position of having to procure a shovel again after having carried it around for most of the game without any discernible use for it.  Also in...  the town that's in the same region as Caladon...  Roseborough?  There's a puzzle that reminds me that the Arcanum system of cardinal directions is seriously messed up.  In the beginning of the game I assumed that up meant north, but I learned definitively, through sneaking past the mountains bordering the desert to the east, that up is really north EAST.  This wouldn't be a big deal, but there's a X Marks the Spot puzzle in town that relies upon you picking up on this.  
     
    I think the next time I play I'm going to try out a magicked-up Elf, just to see what sort of trouble I can get into.  I'm not too keen on the magic system making you pass out (I think it should just draw from hitpoints if you dig too deep) but I like that there's a consequence for using it.  I have other gripes and compliments but I'm going to save them for when I'm playing the game more regularly.  For now, most of my time has been spent with Age of Wonders.
     

    Age of Wonders


    As I hinted at in my last post, I beat a campaign path in Age of Wonders.  I have to say I enjoy the game a lot, despite its hand-cramping mouse controls, the occasional showstopping bug (save often), and the at times unimaginative AI.  This last bit has been a problem once in a while.  I'll get to a point where I trap a fleeing enemy, and rather than run away or fight, the game just freezes.  And right now, my Frostlings are allied with the Halflings, and the Halflings absolutely refuse to take out the remnants of an enemy force.  The only way the scenario will resolve is if I declare war on my superior allies and take out those enemies myself, possibly getting murdered in the process.
     
    But I do enjoy this game.  I play it quite a bit, and I love that there are so many different factions to choose from.  Its closest analog is Master of Magic, to which it owes a lot, but if you compare it with Heroes of Might and Magic: you know how each town is an alignment of sorts?  Well, in AoW, there's just alignment.  So mixed troops are not a big deal as long as the alignment is comparable, and this can be modified through faction relations.  If you treat the Goblins nicely, even if you're a good-aligned faction you will wind up being able to ally with the goblins without much trouble, especially in the campaign mode, which carries over faction standings for the whole campaign ( a brilliant touch that I haven't seen in many other games, making each playthrough potentially wildly different depending on who you piss off). Additionally, each unit acts as an individual, not a stack, and it can gain experience and not need a leader to move (you basically get unlimited units, although some units may desert you due to their alignment differences, especially if they don't have a leader).  Leaders, similar to HoMM4, are in the battle.  I wasn't a big fan of this in HoMM4, but here it feels natural, and you can boost those heroes enough to where they're nearly a demigod in power, which can be pretty exciting when you're charging into a castle and kicking major ass (or irritating if you're up against them).
    My history with this game goes back to the demo many years ago, which I played to death, so I was already prepared for the combat basics.  The only thing I needed to learn was some of the quirks of the newer units, and what some of the scenario settings really mean.  It's in the scenarios that you will get the widest variety of gameplay, because you can the difficulty level and behavior of the enemy AI individually, and you can set the game to let your main character be off the board. Normally, if you kill a faction's main leader, the entire faction crumbles and becomes independent neutrals.  If your main character is off the board, you have to eliminate EVERYONE.  This means that the cheap tactic of building up a strong main and charging in there doesn't work, and it forces you to be a lot smarter with your lines of control (with the obvious tradeoff of the game taking longer).  There's also a turn-based / simultaneous toggle that lets you have fully turn-based games, or a simultaneous turns mode which means everyone rushes to do things first.  The latter lets you get away with stealing things out from under an opponent's nose, but it can easily feel cheap, especially when up against an efficient computer.  
     
    One of my favorite features, assuming your main character is in the field, lets you pick starting stats for your main character.  This lets you give them powers they would normally not develop, and lets you further customize them through their portrait and the spheres of magic they have available to them.
     
    This is by no means a comprehensive review, since I could give a summary and maybe add a few more bits about the mechanics.  But my fingers seemed to want to type all of this, so I'm only happy to oblige.
     
    The lesson here is: if you're feeling depressed, go take a walk.  Did me some good!
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    ahoodedfigure

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    #1  Edited By ahoodedfigure

    Arcanum: Week 2

     
    It's been a bit slow after reaching Caladon. I'd confused Caladon with Dernholm, and was surprised to see a sizeable city filled with yet more secrets.  I may hate things about the engine and the inflexible quests, but man, if Arcanum is anything it's generous with its content.  
     
    I'm now maxed out, with several undistributed points set aside for when I feel a strong need to boost something. I've stopped putting points into crafting skills because I know that I can buy textbooks to cumulatively supplement the skill; the only thing I'll need to do that for is if I find that one of the base inventions that you only get through leveling a crafting skill will be necessary for something I consider to be indispensable.  Since I have a decent rifle, pistol, and flamesplosion weapon from out of space and time, I'm not too worried.  
     
    I've started getting rid of junk, stashing it in known locations and selling it otherwise.  This put me in a position of having to procure a shovel again after having carried it around for most of the game without any discernible use for it.  Also in...  the town that's in the same region as Caladon...  Roseborough?  There's a puzzle that reminds me that the Arcanum system of cardinal directions is seriously messed up.  In the beginning of the game I assumed that up meant north, but I learned definitively, through sneaking past the mountains bordering the desert to the east, that up is really north EAST.  This wouldn't be a big deal, but there's a X Marks the Spot puzzle in town that relies upon you picking up on this.  
     
    I think the next time I play I'm going to try out a magicked-up Elf, just to see what sort of trouble I can get into.  I'm not too keen on the magic system making you pass out (I think it should just draw from hitpoints if you dig too deep) but I like that there's a consequence for using it.  I have other gripes and compliments but I'm going to save them for when I'm playing the game more regularly.  For now, most of my time has been spent with Age of Wonders.
     

    Age of Wonders


    As I hinted at in my last post, I beat a campaign path in Age of Wonders.  I have to say I enjoy the game a lot, despite its hand-cramping mouse controls, the occasional showstopping bug (save often), and the at times unimaginative AI.  This last bit has been a problem once in a while.  I'll get to a point where I trap a fleeing enemy, and rather than run away or fight, the game just freezes.  And right now, my Frostlings are allied with the Halflings, and the Halflings absolutely refuse to take out the remnants of an enemy force.  The only way the scenario will resolve is if I declare war on my superior allies and take out those enemies myself, possibly getting murdered in the process.
     
    But I do enjoy this game.  I play it quite a bit, and I love that there are so many different factions to choose from.  Its closest analog is Master of Magic, to which it owes a lot, but if you compare it with Heroes of Might and Magic: you know how each town is an alignment of sorts?  Well, in AoW, there's just alignment.  So mixed troops are not a big deal as long as the alignment is comparable, and this can be modified through faction relations.  If you treat the Goblins nicely, even if you're a good-aligned faction you will wind up being able to ally with the goblins without much trouble, especially in the campaign mode, which carries over faction standings for the whole campaign ( a brilliant touch that I haven't seen in many other games, making each playthrough potentially wildly different depending on who you piss off). Additionally, each unit acts as an individual, not a stack, and it can gain experience and not need a leader to move (you basically get unlimited units, although some units may desert you due to their alignment differences, especially if they don't have a leader).  Leaders, similar to HoMM4, are in the battle.  I wasn't a big fan of this in HoMM4, but here it feels natural, and you can boost those heroes enough to where they're nearly a demigod in power, which can be pretty exciting when you're charging into a castle and kicking major ass (or irritating if you're up against them).
    My history with this game goes back to the demo many years ago, which I played to death, so I was already prepared for the combat basics.  The only thing I needed to learn was some of the quirks of the newer units, and what some of the scenario settings really mean.  It's in the scenarios that you will get the widest variety of gameplay, because you can the difficulty level and behavior of the enemy AI individually, and you can set the game to let your main character be off the board. Normally, if you kill a faction's main leader, the entire faction crumbles and becomes independent neutrals.  If your main character is off the board, you have to eliminate EVERYONE.  This means that the cheap tactic of building up a strong main and charging in there doesn't work, and it forces you to be a lot smarter with your lines of control (with the obvious tradeoff of the game taking longer).  There's also a turn-based / simultaneous toggle that lets you have fully turn-based games, or a simultaneous turns mode which means everyone rushes to do things first.  The latter lets you get away with stealing things out from under an opponent's nose, but it can easily feel cheap, especially when up against an efficient computer.  
     
    One of my favorite features, assuming your main character is in the field, lets you pick starting stats for your main character.  This lets you give them powers they would normally not develop, and lets you further customize them through their portrait and the spheres of magic they have available to them.
     
    This is by no means a comprehensive review, since I could give a summary and maybe add a few more bits about the mechanics.  But my fingers seemed to want to type all of this, so I'm only happy to oblige.
     
    The lesson here is: if you're feeling depressed, go take a walk.  Did me some good!
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    ryanwho

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    #2  Edited By ryanwho

    AOW2 is still the best turn based strategy of that kind in my view. But I guess I have a minority view on what makes a good turn based RPG cus I also thought Disciples 3 had some interesting ideas and King's Bounty was boring as shit.

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    Tennmuerti

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    #3  Edited By Tennmuerti
    @ryanwho said:

    " AOW2 is still the best turn based strategy of that kind in my view. But I guess I have a minority view on what makes a good turn based RPG cus I also thought Disciples 3 had some interesting ideas and King's Bounty was boring as shit. "

    Disciples 3 was just utter garbage compared to Disciples 2.
    They didn't even bother to make any new faction units, castles are 100% the same except you can't play as undead (until expansion)
    3D models were laughably bad compared to the previous game's sweet 2D art.
    Heroes became demigods half way through the campaign and could solo everything.
    Insanely broken OP units like succubi.
    Embarrassing grid battlefield that tried to copy HoMM series and failed.
    Boring ass singleplayer campaign with meaningless missions.
     

    Yes King's Bounty was boring as shit.
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    ryanwho

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    #4  Edited By ryanwho
    @Tennmuerti: Never played any other Disciple games. I just liked the idea of having garrisons that had spheres of influence in them. Instead of having to go to every single windmill and gold mine and claim it or whatever the hell. And uh yeah. You can win about every fight on autobattle after figuring out how broken summoning is, and ranged attack in general.
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    #5  Edited By ahoodedfigure
    @Tennmuerti:@ryanwho: Wait, there's a Disciples 3?  I totally didn't notice.  I liked 1 and 2 in their own way, although at times combat would get stuck in simplistic loops, and I like HoMM and AoW in that you can easily have different faction units or different towns, and aren't stuck with a single major city all the time. I'd say 1's character art was the best; the artist for that got promoted to an art director, so someone else did a lot of the artwork and I think it was good, but not as good as the original.  Ah well.  Disappointing that they didn't even stick with the same thing for 3, since the art design was one of the game's strengths.
     
    I've heard good things about King's Bounty but I don't think this thing can run it.  The only King's Bounty I know is the original, which had some fun stuff HoMM doesn't, but isn't the same kind of game really.
     
    What would you say are the main differences between AoW 2 and 1?  I've heard there are fewer factions, but not much else from people who've played both.
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    Tennmuerti

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    #6  Edited By Tennmuerti
    @ahoodedfigure: 
    If you played Disciples1,2 there is really no reason to pickup Disciples 3, waste of time.
    King's bounty starts interesting and has some fun mechanics, it suffers from quickly becoming boring and repetitive however.
    I have not played any of the Age of Wonders games I barely remember hearing about them from time to time but that is about it.
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    #7  Edited By ArbitraryWater

    Certainly, Arcanum can't be criticized for lack of content. I must have only been about halfway through the main story when I gave up, and that was like 30 hours of play. It was my issue with the quality of the content that really annoyed me. But I've had this conversation with myself to death. Next time I bother to talk about Arcanum, I'm going to only use specifics. 
     
    I like Age of Wonders, and because I was impatient with GOG, I bought the third one (Shadow Magic) on Steam. It has some good ideas, but I'm going to actually have to play it in detail to see if those ideas work out to any effect. I guess my problem with both those games in particular is that I still haven't figured out an opening strategy the same way I have for Heroes or even Disciples, and it requires more micromanagement and aggression than I am competent at. I guess I'm still trying to apply my Heroes strategies to this game. They don't work, by the way.
     
    I was told, somewhat condescendingly, that if I was a person who liked Heroes V, I would like Disciples III. Of course, I consider people to hate Heroes V to be bitter elitists for the most part (a word of warning: never go on any Might and Magic community site ever. They aren't quite No Mutants Allowed, but they are close enough to be worth avoiding if you ever feel like you want to be happy about Video Games), and nitpickers for the other part. But I still haven't heard much in terms of general positive feelings towards D3 from anywhere, so my guess is that it's something best avoided until an expansion comes out or it drops in price. King's Bounty, on the other hand, seems like something I would probably enjoy. Boring as shit or not.

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    #8  Edited By melcene
    @ArbitraryWater said:
    " Certainly, Arcanum can't be criticized for lack of content. I must have only been about halfway through the main story when I gave up, and that was like 30 hours of play. It was my issue with the quality of the content that really annoyed me. But I've had this conversation with myself to death. Next time I bother to talk about Arcanum, I'm going to only use specifics. 
     
    I had the same problem with Arcanum.
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    ahoodedfigure

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    #9  Edited By ahoodedfigure
    @ArbitraryWater: 
     

      " Certainly, Arcanum can't be criticized for lack of content. I must have only been about halfway through the main story when I gave up, and that was like 30 hours of play. It was my issue with the quality of the content that really annoyed me. But I've had this conversation with myself to death. Next time I bother to talk about Arcanum, I'm going to only use specifics.   

    That's the problem with Arcanum criticism, I think. Without getting specific, you wind up running in circles. I think this is why a lot of the reviews that try to get general about it always left me unsatisfied, while the specific criticisms (and praise) always seemed scattershot.  This thing is so expansive and weird I'm afraid it's going to try to suck me through the screen like some sort of hungry, forgotten god.
     

     I like Age of Wonders, and because I was impatient with GOG, I bought the third one (Shadow Magic) on Steam. 

    Maybe since someone beat them to the license it's not easy for them to get it without a bit of a loss.  I've seen a lot of complaints on the boards there.
     

      It has some good ideas, but I'm going to actually have to play it in detail to see if those ideas work out to any effect. I guess my problem with both those games in particular is that I still haven't figured out an opening strategy the same way I have for Heroes or even Disciples, and it requires more micromanagement and aggression than I am competent at. I guess I'm still trying to apply my Heroes strategies to this game. They don't work, by the way.  

    You'd probably clean my clock in HoMM, since I tend to get distracted by the sparklies in that game (maybe I've improved as a strategy player since then, I don't know.  It's been a while).  I've played AoW to DEATH, starting with their generous demo game (which I strangely remember having tigers. I guess they were cut in favor of different units before release), so I know it in ways that I don't think I know HoMM games as well.  I played HoMM a lot, though, especially 2 and a lot of 3.
     
    Some basic assumptions that HoMM has about alignment, stacking, max hero/army restrictions, how magic works, what function heroes have in an army, and tons of other details are substantially different.  If you got rid of the fantasy theme, I wonder if we'd even be making comparisons between them.  It does seem to strongly resemble Master of Magic, though, as I said, complete with hero stats, summoning, a bunch of other things.  Maybe it'd be good to start with an intro scenario if you're starting on the campaign.  The campaign's rather rough.

     I was told, somewhat condescendingly, that if I was a person who liked Heroes V, I would like Disciples III. Of course, I consider people to hate Heroes V to be bitter elitists for the most part (a word of warning: never go on any Might and Magic community site ever. They aren't quite No Mutants Allowed, but they are close enough to be worth avoiding if you ever feel like you want to be happy about Video Games), and nitpickers for the other part. But I still haven't heard much in terms of general positive feelings towards D3 from anywhere, so my guess is that it's something best avoided until an expansion comes out or it drops in price. King's Bounty, on the other hand, seems like something I would probably enjoy. Boring as shit or not.

    Many strategy gamers tend to be a bit volatile.  I've never felt kinship with the really territorial ones who seem to have forgotten the game has stopped when they look away from the table/screen, and they tend to dominate the discussions. I tend to enjoy the exploration aspects of these games more than most, and AoW doesn't seem to relish in those as much as HoMM and Disciples.  I guess its strategy foundation is a bit more solid, but sometimes it feels a bit like arraying numbers.  If it wasn't for the unit personality it would be a bit alienating, but the units are always fun to control, and there are TONS of different units out there.
     
    I didn't assume HoMM communities were bad, but I think the last time I thought about this at all it was before I'd seen a good sampling of crazed anger for games. I also felt that a lot of the maps on the sites I saw were rather boring-looking, but maybe there were a few adventure maps tucked away in there somewhere.  My favorite HoMM3 map basically retold the story of Might and Magic...  6 or 7 I think.  Was awesome.
     
    I haven't played much of Disciples 2 (I bought all the expansions but never got through the basic game. I guess I was daunted like I'm daunted by Might and Magic that's supposed to run on Windows.  I want to play Xeen again something fierce, though), so 3 wasn't even in the cards for me.  It's disappointing to hear it's been so flatly rejected and I wonder why now.  HoMM V's design made me wary in spots, but I never got really familiar with the end product (I have the basic disc, but haven't tried to play it. Got it for cheap), so I dunno other than it's not even vaguely associated with the lamented NWC.  
     
    Before I read the posters here, I'd only heard good things about King's Bounty, so I don't know what to think.  Except if it's based at all on the quest-based, exploration-puzzle style of its original namesake I could see myself enjoying it on that level.  Sorry if I'm repeating myself, but I guess I'm sort of sorting these thoughts out for myself.
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    ArbitraryWater

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    #10  Edited By ArbitraryWater
    @ahoodedfigure: As an on-again, off-again poster on Celestial Heavens, I have managed to witness a general embittering of the community as a whole. Now, the most posted topics involve two people debating over the M&M lore (which I find hilarious, as the lore in those games is hilariously inconsistent and pretty generic as well) and people complaining about how Heroes VI represents that the franchise is (still) going to the dogs (those dogs being the most hated "casuals"). Occasionally, a fan-made project will be announced by someone with a poor grasp of english, only to go silent not soon after. It's kind of a mess.  
     
    I'm actually not a fan of Campaigns in games like these. I find most of them to be kind of dull, and in some cases, far too relying on trial and error. I've always been more of an "individual scenario" guy.
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    #11  Edited By ahoodedfigure
    @ArbitraryWater said:
    " @ahoodedfigure: As an on-again, off-again poster on Celestial Heavens, I have managed to witness a general embittering of the community as a whole. Now, the most posted topics involve two people debating over the M&M lore (which I find hilarious, as the lore in those games is hilariously inconsistent and pretty generic as well) and people complaining about how Heroes VI represents that the franchise is (still) going to the dogs (those dogs being the most hated "casuals"). Occasionally, a fan-made project will be announced by someone with a poor grasp of english, only to go silent not soon after. It's kind of a mess.    I'm actually not a fan of Campaigns in games like these. I find most of them to be kind of dull, and in some cases, far too relying on trial and error. I've always been more of an "individual scenario" guy. "
    The earlier stuff was pretty consistent, but once they moved into general fantasy territory, and not having the cool undercurrent of science fiction/fantasy that was always the reveal behind stuff, I can see why people might argue about it. But I think that's a bit crazy seeing as the franchise has changed hands like a hot potato (and as the creators had gotten death threats for changing stuff BACK into what the series began as from probably some of the same people who post on that board).
     
    Heroes VI?  Man, I'm out of touch.
     
    In AoW I was pretty much exclusively playing the scenarios, and in HoMM I stayed away from the campaigns for the most part because I guess I didn't want to get overwhelmed by stuff. I tended to be a bit timid in my early gamer years, I'm starting to realize.  Now I dive straight in...
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    #12  Edited By mracoon

    All your blog posts on Arcanum make me really want to try it out. Is it available on gog.com?

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    ryanwho

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    #13  Edited By ryanwho

    If I could touch on the issue with King's Bounty for a second. Its an open world game and the overworld doesn't have turn intervals. That may sound appealing on paper, but the reality of that situation is you have this aimless narrative and nothing resembling a nemesis. So unlike where you're defending your castles and dealing with evil hero units, here there basically aren't any castles or hero units. Just a series of battles from dudes who walk back and fourth. You never have to worry about losing any kind of resource because you don't really claim any. There are zero stakes. You do the main quest of fighting dudes, or you take sidequests (that are just fighting dudes). Its so binary.

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    ahoodedfigure

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    #14  Edited By ahoodedfigure
    @mracoon:  Yeah, that's how I got it actually.  Take the positives and the negatives together. I still don't have a complete picture of the game, and I may never have the time to have one.  Read ArbitraryWater's posts on it for some counterpoint in places.  I'm just continually astonished by how much stuff there is in there, though often I wish, as I've said, that there were more depth.
     
    @ryanwho: I see.  It actually sounds a lot like the original King's Bounty. I don't know if you're familiar with it, but there were roving enemies in that too, treasures to find, that sort of thing. You were based in a single main castle where you could hire standard troops, and there were places out farther away where you could hire more exotic guys and gals to fight for you.  They had alignment that prevented you from exceeding your Leadership skill, and there were a few other skills that you had that influenced things.  There WAS a nemesis, though, and that was time.  You had to explore the 4 continents, find all this junk, and defeat the main badguy at the end before the time expired.  So there was conflict in it, even if the focus was more on exploration than AI controlled enemies that were similar to you, as in HoMM.
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    ryanwho

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    #15  Edited By ryanwho

    The battles take to long for there to be absolutely no stakes. A hacknslash can get away with it because battles last seconds. But at some point you're just sitting there watching the autobattle play out (in real time, it doesn't speed up) and you're like "what the fuck am I doing".

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    #16  Edited By ahoodedfigure
    @ryanwho:  When you say autobattle, is that a setting?  I just watched a Let's Play (portion of one, anyway) and there was a hex grid where you moved and attacked other units, so it wasn't all automated.  Maybe you mean the enemy forces?
     
    I tend with these games to speed things up, though, and it sucks that they don't let you do that.  There comes a point when all the graphical prettiness and animation just gets in the way of the actual game you came to play. 

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