Diablo III Introduces New Endgame System, Paragon

@Beforet said:

Hm, I don't know. It seems like more of a bandaid. What happens when you get to Paragon level 100? I don''t know what made Diablo II's endgame so appealing, so I don't know how they really fix that. It just seems that adding more levels is a cheap way to do it.

This article itself actually misrepresents the tone of the dev blog in regards to the paragon system somewhat. The paragon system is meant to address Magic Find more than anything else. Currently, people feel compelled to switch from combat based armor to magic find focused armor mid-fight so as to take advantage of the higher drop rate. Paragon's +3% MF per level with a 300% MF cap is meant to let players slowly phase out the need for MF gear while still maintaining the maximum MF stat until they no longer need it at all. Increasing the level cap wasn't the main focus.

It also worth mentioning that this system was a suggestion presented by a player, not something thought up internally unless there's a gigantic coincidence happening.

Alright. Does it make the game less boring after you beat it once? I'm guessing not, cause that was my big problem. See you when an expansion comes out, Diablo!

I still don't think this fixes the fundamental issue I had with the game - complete and total loot dependence. I might dust off my Wizard to try this out but I feel D3's problems run a lot deeper than extra stats and magic find.

@Arkasai said:

Man these comments are starting to look like WoW forums. Not saying people shouldn't complain, it's just the level of melodrama that doesn't belong here. I dunno why anyone has a problem with RMAH, so what if they take 30%, it's a fucking virtual sword you found in their game that they are allowing you to sell to some retard for hundreds of dollars! There were tons of D2 items sites back in the day (probably still some) and loads of people went to shady ones and got hacked.

To be fair, if they altered game mechanics so as to encourage RMAH use, that would be kind of fucked up. As Ryan said on today's I Love Mondays, more and more games are adding systems to games specifically designed to get you to spend money, and it can be kind of gross. Fortunately, the non-retroactive changes in equipment stats for this update shows that Blizzard isn't doing that quite yet.

@Fradada said:

@kingofpeanuts:

Ya, get back with me blizzard when the random world generator update comes out.

This. The issue isn't the length of the grind, but the repetitive quality of it. I don't see them doing this unless it were a separate mode, like some sort of "endless dungeon" mode.

Hey, Blizzard. Get back to me when your great big ocean is no longer shallow enough that I can simply wade from one side to the other.

@vhold said:

@Dark_Lord_Spam said:

I understand that from Blizzard's perspective, this sort of no-progress progression might as well be a cash-printing operation. What I can never understand is people complaining about not having enough incentive to do the same thing over and over. If fun is no longer part of the process, they might as well go do something that is fun.

I don't think these people are playing for what you probably consider fun. If they're using that word, I think what they're referring to is the pleasure they get from getting a reward while gambling. They like that feeling, and they're complaining because the game isn't providing it in the way they imagined it would. They must be hanging in there with hope that this could be a big thing to give them lots of that pleasure.

That would put the onus back on Blizzard for constructing games that rely on these systems, but I can't commit to that given people actually complained about not having enough tread to mill. I've been known to participate in mindless grind in the occasional RPG to get access to advanced content, but these players are requesting 100 additional helpings of what by all accounts is an already-grindy game with no appetizers to vary things up. Psychological tics shouldn't be determining the development focus for everybody's content.

I guess ranting isn't going to break the feedback loop, though. Better to just not participate.

I'm more interested in the patch making legendaries more awesome. My favorite part about diablo 2 was simply trying to find rare items, but diablo 3 made those items inherently worse off than the rares. So them making the unique weapons actually unique is nice.

Sounds good!

But also, generic internet comment included: whiiiine

“We understand that some players feel frustrated once they hit level 60 because they no longer feel like they’re making progress,”

Every company making RPGs needs to realize this, especially those making ones where it's impossible to get everything before hitting a level cap.

All level caps in games should be stupid pointless high. Let me grind to my heart's content!

Or they could just not be total dickheads and increase the drop rate for gear useful to your class. Wait, this is the Diablo III team we're talking about. Nevermind.

@sickVisionz said:

“We understand that some players feel frustrated once they hit level 60 because they no longer feel like they’re making progress,”

Every company making RPGs needs to realize this, especially those making ones where it's impossible to get everything before hitting a level cap.

All level caps in games should be stupid pointless high. Let me grind to my heart's content!

Hear hear!

@spazmaster666 said:

This is great but unfortunately the 200+ hours I played past level 60 on my main character is still a waste.

that is retarded, you clearly didn't try it for an hour then decide 'this is shit I better play some more' and if you are just playing is friends for that time you should maybe tell them that you are board with the game and would like to play something else

I really don't know how anyone can think this game is worse than D2, 'oh but you had to make a new char if you wanted to try a new spec' that is also very retarded, it is just making you play from scratch again which you can still do (thought blizz should probably up the char limit to 10 for the achievements at least), I'm sorry the D3 wasn't just D2 1.14 but the genre needs pushing forward for anything worth while to happen, Titan Quest has respecing at a gold cost an no one took them to task about not having to make a new char to try a new build

Also who the hell thinks D2 story is any good at all, I really wish people would start giving less of a shit about the story in games and focus on what makes them unique as an art form - the mechanics of play, I love all the Final Fantasy games because they all change their battle systems, the Uncharted games are pretty bad, same with the Gears and Halo games because the shoe horn mechanics onto a device not meant for them. Games that a pretty much universally loved are things like Mario and Tetris because they let you interact with them in an interesting way, this is way Marvel vs Capcom 2 was still played so long after being released because even though the game didn't change how people played was so varied changed constantly.

Yes @patrickklepek should a least add a little something about the other dev blogs, as this is far from the whole story of 1.04

I'll prob try it out. Why not I all ready own the thing after all. I just wonder what happened to PVP????

The changes coming in the patch will definitely get me to dust the game off and play a bit more.

What would really be impressive is if they just nuked everyone's gold and start fresh again.

@iAmJohn said:

Too little too late.

I feel like too little is the more important part here. I mean, this just feels like really lazy game design.

People still play this? Go figure.

And yet, the endgame to Starcraft 2 single player is to wait 3 years for an expansion pack.

@Example1013 said:

Or they could just not be total dickheads and increase the drop rate for gear useful to your class. Wait, this is the Diablo III team we're talking about. Nevermind.

Elites are being made less powerful (and having their enrage timers and ability to fully heal removed), magic drop rates on regular enemies are being multiplied by four, legendary gear is being considerably improved, unpopular skills are being made more useful, and this new system allows you to make some kind of progress even when you're not getting the drops you want, actually helps you get better drops the more you play, and lets you ditch that magic find gear for more practical combat gear. Your specific wish isn't there, but it all seems to be in service of making the game more fun. Pretty non-dickhead move, if you ask me.

Nice, but doesn't solve the essential Loot feedback loop problem created by the Auction House.

Despite liking the previous Diablo, I'm just not interested in this one.

I think it's crazy to complain about a non-MMO not having an endgame. That's the point of a game - to get to the end you psychos. You get to the level cap, and you're DONE, you did it - move onto another game. Blizzard fanboys are the worst. They shouldn't have marathoned through this game so fast. They should just wait for "Expansion Packs" or DLC episodes or whatever they call'em these days.

hmm, this doesn't seem like a very thought through idea. It's too darn simple and could make the game just... simple.

Really blizzard? this is your answer? I guess leveling up will make inferno less annoying but still... without even loot to care about what's the point.

@Gilsham said:

that is retarded, you clearly didn't try it for an hour then decide 'this is shit I better play some more' and if you are just playing is friends for that time you should maybe tell them that you are board with the game and would like to play something else

I really don't know how anyone can think this game is worse than D2, 'oh but you had to make a new char if you wanted to try a new spec' that is also very retarded, it is just making you play from scratch again which you can still do (thought blizz should probably up the char limit to 10 for the achievements at least), I'm sorry the D3 wasn't just D2 1.14 but the genre needs pushing forward for anything worth while to happen, Titan Quest has respecing at a gold cost an no one took them to task about not having to make a new char to try a new build

But it is a waste. Diablo III is not shit, but Blizzard has clearly planned poorly. If Blizzard had decided to implement these 100 levels earlier and not three months after release when many people have already played many hours with a level 60 character, then that time I spent playing past level 60 would have more meaning aside from just grinding for loots. I mean the fact that Blizzard has felt the need to change something as fundamental as Elite affixes (after years and years of dev time mind you) shows how much insight they had.

Really blizzard? this is your answer? I guess leveling up will make inferno less annoying but still... without even loot to care about what's the point.

I'm more interested in the patch making legendaries more awesome. My favorite part about diablo 2 was simply trying to find rare items, but diablo 3 made those items inherently worse off than the rares. So them making the unique weapons actually unique is nice.

@AndrewB said:

And yet, the endgame to Starcraft 2 single player is to wait 3 years for an expansion pack.

what?

what kind of boots?

yay videogames

@Turambar said:

@Lazyaza said:

Really blizzard? this is your answer? I guess leveling up will make inferno less annoying but still... without even loot to care about what's the point.

Read the other 6 1.0.4 dev blogs on the blizzard site. The ones that specifically talk about changes to loot, and character skills.

You mean the blogs where they basically said "hey, we had this game in development for years on end...and all these skills we made suck fat dick...you guys were right, we should've listened, but instead we were too busy counting our money and acting like dicks to others because they had criticisms...but now that you all left, we figure we'll do something with these so let's just increase the overall damage output on half of them and see what that does"?

I mean, seriously, the stupidest...STUPIDEST...fucking idea they ever had was attaching overall damage to skills through your overall damage...and then placing all that damage and all those stats on your fucking gear. When I look at something like Path of Exile, where the gear is just a mild enhancer to the badassness of your basic character, I say "they are doing this shit SOOOO correctly". Meanwhile, I look at Diablo 3 and say "when I take my clothes off, I'm a thoroughbred fucking weakling".

Therefore, they don't know how to handle it all, so all this "rework" shit is what they have planned for the classes. However, they are having to rework it because they broke the characters post-launch in the first place. I would say that I'm curious just how much internal playtesting actually went on with this game, but I have a pretty good idea...because as I've said multiple times on these forums before, I have friends who work at Blizzard and a friend who is an ex-employee...and that person quit BECAUSE OF THE WAY THAT BLIZZARD WAS TREATING THEIR CUSTOMERS AND EMPLOYEES! Hint: they treat them like shit and don't give a fuck.

This Paragon 100 shit is Blizzard trying to offer up a quick fix to a bigger problem: characters themselves are pitiful piles of mush without the gear. That's never how it should be in an ARPG. The gear is a modifier for you, an enhancement...but the power is in your character's personal stats, the abilities you use, the way you set up a skill tree, etc. I will say that I still like the idea of the runes system instead of a skill tree, as it allows for on-the-fly respecs to play around with crazy shit. At the same time, the game has disallowed the idea of playing with crazy shit since virtually launch...and they just kept taking the crazy shit out more and more because they said "oh, it's overpowered".

There's a reason and agenda to it all though. Why do you think all the stats are on gear? Well, how the hell would the RMAH have been any kind of success if that wasn't the case? At some point, I think they were genuinely making a killer Diablo 3. I saw some of that in the beta, and it got me giddy. My dick was hard for some fucking Diablo!!! After release, I was loving it. Even when I hit the massive brick wall of Act 2 Inferno, I was still stoked. After a while, though, you realize that the loot rolls are shit 90% of the time...and that you are doing more gold farming than loot hunting and exploration...and hey, this dungeon looks exactly the same as it did last time...and this one is kind of different, but they just moved this 30 square block from the north to the south side...and this isn't honestly that much fun anymore because I'm just a Chinese gold farmer now trying to get a fucking item on the AH.

So...that's my rant...but the long and short of it is that Diablo 3 needs way more work to be saved. 1.0.4 won't save it. I might load it up just to say I got a level on Paragon and then log out. I MIGHT. With Guild Wars 2 staring me down for the headstart this weekend...and Path of Exile being a genuinely superior game in every way, shape, and form...IN A BETA FORM AT THAT, I just can't justify taking the time to bust out my authenticator and give it another go.

A lover scorned and whatnot...

Sounds cool.

But, I still wont come back. Doesn't change the fact that the game is a bore to play.

It's a little late for this. I already uninstalled.

@jakob187 said:

After release, I was loving it. Even when I hit the massive brick wall of Act 2 Inferno, I was still stoked.

This jumped out at me. It takes a long time to get to Inferno. I'd say you made a pretty good investment.

@Turambar said:

@Arkasai said:

Man these comments are starting to look like WoW forums. Not saying people shouldn't complain, it's just the level of melodrama that doesn't belong here. I dunno why anyone has a problem with RMAH, so what if they take 30%, it's a fucking virtual sword you found in their game that they are allowing you to sell to some retard for hundreds of dollars! There were tons of D2 items sites back in the day (probably still some) and loads of people went to shady ones and got hacked.

To be fair, if they altered game mechanics so as to encourage RMAH use, that would be kind of fucked up. As Ryan said on today's I Love Mondays, more and more games are adding systems to games specifically designed to get you to spend money, and it can be kind of gross. Fortunately, the non-retroactive changes in equipment stats for this update shows that Blizzard isn't doing that quite yet.

I'd have to find the image someone took of a staff member saying this in the Blizzard forums, but it had been stated that originally drop rates were being altered to encourage more use of the RMAH. Basically it meant that they tried to ensure the rarity and value of certain items were intact, but that people who cared nothing about the auction houses were unfortunately penalized with lower drop rates. Of course this was a while ago and now they are fixing the game with the everyday player in mind now, but they did tread questionable territory before even though it wasn't to something as visible as gear stats.

@SpunkyHePanda said:

@jakob187 said:

After release, I was loving it. Even when I hit the massive brick wall of Act 2 Inferno, I was still stoked.

This jumped out at me. It takes a long time to get to Inferno. I'd say you made a pretty good investment.

It took a couple of days. That's barely a long time. Most of my time was spent after getting into Inferno.

@Turambar said:

@jakob187: Thanks for your input. I prefer people reading said dev blogs and coming to whatever conclusion they wish instead of thinking the changes stated in them don't exist.

I read every one of the posts for 1.0.4. Every single one of them was "these skills don't get used because they suck ass, so we're buffing them up", followed by "yeah, we boned monks and demon hunters pretty hard on their overall resource gen, so we're fixing that finally...aaaaand we didn't really know what to do with witch doctors because they needed a fuckload of work so we THINK this stuff is going to work..." Hell, they even admit IN THE POST ON WITCH DOCTORS that they aren't sure, particularly on Vision Quest. And I quote:

"While we can't accommodate every skill and build combination out there, the goal for Vision Quest is that a player who has chosen the right passives and gear will still be able to summon waves of stampeding bears for at least a few seconds."

They are talking a lot about build diversity in all the blog posts...and then they say "a player who has chosen the right passives and gear..." Moreover, HOW THE FUCK CAN THEY NOT ACCOMMODATE EVERY SKILL AND BUILD COMBINATION OUT THERE?! THEY DEVELOPED THE FUCKING GAME FOR HOW MANY YEARS?! Please. It's a load of bullshit.

O______________________________O How the fuck is "chosen the right passives and gear" promoting build diversity?

There was nothing in any of the blog posts (particularly in the Barbarian one, which is what I played) that told me there was build diversity. Every one of them started by saying "hey, these skills are the ones people use most often", following it up with "so we're going to buff these other skills in the hopes that you think it offers build diversity when the skills you were already using is still going to be the one that offers the best farming and critical pathing capability".

Nothing about it is changing. They are just throwing out some random shit, saying "we're internally testing it" (which, btw, their internal testing is a fucking joke...), and then release it to what will surely be people saying "hey, shit's fucked up" or "hey, you turned this into WoW: WotLK and made it stupid easy". I mean, the bleed damage on Skorn...THAT'S FUCKING RIDICULOUS!

It wasn't me jumping to my own conclusions. It was me reading those dev blogs over the course of the day and seeing through the bullshit. Moreover, they are going to buff a bunch of shit...and I'm going to throw this prediction out there right now...so quote me on it: half of the shit is going to be broken when it hits tomorrow, and they are going to start issuing nerfs to things such as Fire Walkers' Molten buff and the angel/demon companions much the same way they offered them to Tyrael and other NPCs in the game.

Honestly, Brevik was right with his interview in every way, and all of those dev blogs are them doing EXACTLY what he said were things that needed to be done...then they go out and shit on him because he said all that in an interview about the game?! LAWL

Out of curiosity, how far have you gotten in the game? I'm not saying this as a slight towards you. I'm asking because I'm always curious how far people have gotten in it. Blizzard kept stating that only 3% or 5% or whatever were in Inferno, and I always just felt like that was...wrong. I mean, all of my friends and myself were able to blaze through to Inferno in a couple of days. I personally got there in three days (virtually non-stop play along with jumping into games with my lowbie buddies to show off some badass crazy damage and get them more stoked about getting higher up in their levels). The longest it took one of us was five days.

Anyways, my point is that I've read over the blogs very well, and all it tells me is they are now caving to people who are bitching too hard about Inferno mode being tough, so they say "we're going to make everything you wear and all your skills super strong and make the enemies weaker", followed by trying to save face with the customers that Bashiok and other community managers were shitting all over in the forums after the release of 1.0.3.

Hell, he also called Kripparian a fucking idiot after Krip criticized Blizzard's approach to handling stats and gear in the game. Now look at what they are doing: Paragon 100 - giving the character itself power. KRIP'S SUCH AN IDIOT, SO THEY DO WHAT HE SUGGESTED?! OH LAWL!

If anything, the one thing they are finally doing right is giving the chance for the CHARACTER ITSELF to be stronger without the gear. Unfortunately, it's too late. Why the fuck do I care about another 100 levels? I went through 60 of them already. You couldn't have done that shit BEFORE releasing the game?

Seriously, I recommend to everyone (including you) to pay the $10 to get into the closed beta for Path of Exile. Play that game for 10 hours. You will see what the difference between a GOOD ARPG and a bad one is. Hell, throw down the same amount and pick up Titan Quest Gold. That game STILL holds up and does ARPG correctly.

@Sparky_Buzzsaw: If you go to Blizzard's site there's like 10 other developer blogs with things being addressed in 1.0.4 and you can decide for yourself if it's a band-aid or a comprehensive set of changes.

@jakob187 said:

@SpunkyHePanda said:

@jakob187 said:

After release, I was loving it. Even when I hit the massive brick wall of Act 2 Inferno, I was still stoked.

This jumped out at me. It takes a long time to get to Inferno. I'd say you made a pretty good investment.

It took a couple of days. That's barely a long time. Most of my time was spent after getting into Inferno.

However long you chose to play after you stopped enjoying it, that's besides the point. I know I played at least 50 hours at a moderate pace before reaching Inferno. Maybe if you blazed through it, you could do it in... 20? Seems a little crazy to me, but let's go with it. Even then, 20 hours of enjoyment for $60 isn't bad. I know you probably had higher hopes for this game because it's Diablo III and everything, but it might be worth taking a step back.

4 areas, 5 different pallets, seriously hurts thev replay value. especially since i played a demo build where i was in a forest, and then in a temple are i fought a giant monster that picked me up, i dont think that monsters even in the game.

@Draxyle: Yes. This is exactly how I feel.

Awesome.

@SpunkyHePanda said:

@jakob187 said:

@SpunkyHePanda said:

@jakob187 said:

After release, I was loving it. Even when I hit the massive brick wall of Act 2 Inferno, I was still stoked.

This jumped out at me. It takes a long time to get to Inferno. I'd say you made a pretty good investment.

It took a couple of days. That's barely a long time. Most of my time was spent after getting into Inferno.

However long you chose to play after you stopped enjoying it, that's besides the point. I know I played at least 50 hours at a moderate pace before reaching Inferno. Maybe if you blazed through it, you could do it in... 20? Seems a little crazy to me, but let's go with it. Even then, 20 hours of enjoyment for $60 isn't bad. I know you probably had higher hopes for this game because it's Diablo III and everything, but it might be worth taking a step back.

Twenty hours of enjoyment from an ARPG franchise that has put out installments which literally lasted a solid ten years...is NOT worth it to me. In the modern gaming world where God of War takes eight hours to beat? Yeah, if that's how you wanna justify the $60, go for it. That's not me nor is it a lot of others. I'm glad that you were able to get your enjoyment within the 50 hours. I had already dumped close to 200 into the game, and I was ready for the next 20,000. I played Diablo II off and on from the time of its release in large chunks (one year at first, then another two years after the release of LoD, then picked it back up sometime in 2007, then again in 2009, and then again when D3 allowed RMAH money to go to Battle.net which allowed me to end up buying D2 and LoD, so hey...guess I got something worthwhile from D3!). I do not see me doing the same with D3 in nearly the same way.

Blizzard just overall disappoints me. They used to be about quality first, but it seems like that mentality left whenever Activision came in.

@Turambar: Yeah, I took it all in the wrong context. Sorry for being a dick on that.

@Sparky_Buzzsaw: The thing is, if they say no will people believe them?

It's better to avoid the fire than to fuel it.

hell yes

Sounds great!

Sad that they'll still get mass hate mail and death threats over it. No wonder Jay Wilson lost his cool on Facebook... the Blizzard community is quite impossible to placate.

proof of jay Wilson the creator of wow and diablow 3 insulting the orginal creator of Diablo , deff a good reason to throw the game in the trash can

Funny how a game that was 5/5 on release needs so much changed and added to it in order to keep a rapidly falling playerbase/revenue stream. I'd really like to see Brads' low-standards "But I had da funzez! And for 60 hours guyz!" review be revisited, or maybe re-reviewed post 1.1 PVP (somehow that huge feature wasnt necessary for a PERFECT score either). Yes, I am a "butthurt" ex-fan of the diablo series, I admit that. Its just so disappointing to see what little critical intelligent analysis goes in to a revew around here post-CBS failure-sale.

Might pull me back in. They need to add more content to that game, seriously. I know it has a lot, but people can burn through it pretty quickly.

@Korolev: arent u ppl even reading?