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From #1reasonwhy to #1reasontobe, and 1,600 Comments In-Between

Some thoughts on the fiery discussion prompted at Giant Bomb and elsewhere by a Twitter hashtag meant to raise awareness of sexism in the video game industry.

As with Mirror's Edge, the upcoming Tomb Raider revival was penned by Rhianna Pratchett, and tells the story of how Lara Croft came to be.
As with Mirror's Edge, the upcoming Tomb Raider revival was penned by Rhianna Pratchett, and tells the story of how Lara Croft came to be.

A tweet alone cannot change anything, but enough tweets can become a movement, a movement can raise awareness, and awareness can lead to action. That’s the potential power behind #1reasonwhy, a hashtag from this weekend encouraging women members of the games industry to speak up with stories of their own difficulties, and raise needed awareness about industry sexism.

#1reasonwhy is, by design, full of upsetting, troubling, and negative stories about what it’s like to be a woman that’s making video games in 2012, and games writer Rhianna Pratchett (the upcoming Tomb Raider reboot, Mirror’s Edge, Heavenly Sword) figured something more positive would be of use. Thus, the creation of #1reasontobe, a hashtag with reasons why women are part of the industry at this very moment, should continue to be part of the industry, and call attention to the many stories of strong, independent women succeeding in games--or trying.

Here are a few of their stories:

#1reasonwhy is important, but I’m creating #1reasontobe because I’d like female devs to share why they're in games & what they get from it.

— Rhianna Pratchett (@rhipratchett) November 27, 2012

So our children can see women succeeding in tech and games, and not know why it would ever be any different. #1reasontobe

— strange language (@neuralwiles) November 27, 2012

#1reasontobe Because of the jobs I've had in the past ~7 years, the ones where I create game-related things make me the most happy.

— Eve Walter (@MidnightRem) November 27, 2012

Because my daughter plays video games, she loves video games, and she needs role models who have come before her to be strong. #1reasontobe

— CK Burch (@ckburch) November 27, 2012

#1reasontobe Because when you find a game company who values everyone's opinion, you can just concentrate on making phenomenal games.

— Lindz (@lindzart) November 27, 2012

#1reasontobe - After years of work & careers which left me unfulfilled and outcast from so much, I've found a welcome & passionate home.

— Donna Prior (@_Danicia_) November 27, 2012

There is a growing diverse, queer culture that needs more voice, and games can give it to them. Now let us have it #1ReasonToBe

— Mattie Brice (@xMattieBrice) November 27, 2012

#1reasontobe Despite the bullshit, I am able to work constantly with amazing men and women who care about telling great stories

— Lillian Cohen-Moore (@lilyorit) November 27, 2012

#1reasontobe Because most men in the industry are accepting/inclusive/supportive. Don't let the bad apples dissuade you from going for it.

— LM Lockhart (@missdoomcookie) November 27, 2012

And #1reasontobe is that the only way to change things is to be part of the change. #wecandobetter

— Kathleen (@ninjaharlot) November 27, 2012

#1reasontobe When you get feedback from players that your game changed their life in some way, let them be the hero for once

— Tara J. Brannigan (@kindofstrange) November 27, 2012

#1reasontobe Cuz at their best, games push new boundaries in experience, and we're like 0.5% of the way to getting good at that. Define it!

— AngelosLH (@AngelosLH) November 27, 2012

#1ReasonToBe Because my presence here is changing the industry.

— Ceri Young (@Toughlovemuse) November 27, 2012

It’s good #1reasontobe exists. A problem isn’t solved without a solution, and #1reasontobe provides the disenchanted with glimmers of hope we can work towards a better environment. The next step is creating accessible avenues for people to make connections beyond Twitter, which #1reasonmentor aspires towards.

I haven’t done the math, but yesterday’s article about #1reasonwhy probably broke a comments record on Giant Bomb. I stopped reading the thread after it passed 500 or so comments, both because it’s pretty unwieldy in our current system, and I was roundly discouraged by some of the discussion.

Much of the response felt driven by a feeling that talking about #1reasonwhy, and thereby discussing problems women having in the games industry, suddenly means there are zero problems for men. Elevating the discussion of misogyny implies there is no misandry, or so the argument goes. I don’t buy that, and have trouble reasoning with people who continue to peddle it. Bringing up one very real problem does not invalidate other very real problems, but being so dismissive of the argument suggests you aren’t taking the original argument seriously, and instead want to discredit it because you don’t believe it has any merit in the first place. At least be honest.

I do not consider myself a feminist or particularly aligned with the feminist movement. I just know bullshit when I see it, and I'm tired of bullshit that involves the vapid, shallow arguments that crawl out of the comments section of every single website whenever this subject comes out. It feels like the same 50 people are just making dupe accounts across the Internet, and making sure to drown out any real conversation. Those people deserve a chance to be heard, and that includes the larger-than-you'd-think audience of women right here on Giant Bomb.

Maybe I’m just wading into an unwinnable argument, but I wanted to paste a comment that seemed emblematic of so much of the 1,600 comment (and still growing) thread.

No Caption Provided

I actually don’t have much of a problem with this comment, except for the fact that it was made at all. Video games, like any entertainment medium, are just a hobby to a vast majority of the audience, and their daily lives are filled with concerns vastly more important than the dynamics between men and women in the games industry. That is 100% okay, as there are plenty of things that I enjoy where I’ve done little-to-no research about whether I’m comfortable with all that’s happening behind-the-scenes. Still, you took the time to scroll to the bottom of this article, long after the achievement for a first post was possible, and post a comment that amounts to little more than trolling. There is no opinion here, and we’d all be better off if the discussion, positive or negative, didn’t include pointless derailment.

This isn’t all of you, obviously, and many of you made substantive arguments, even if I disagreed. I suppose the biggest problem I have is with the tone, the dismissiveness, the idea that none of this matters, and that if people only just spoke up at their jobs, engaged with sexual harassment laws (which is hardly the most pervasive issue), changed their attitude, this would just go away. “I have a solution, just grow some fucking balls,” was one comment that stuck out on page 20-something of the comments. There is a reason why it’s not easy to just “grow some fucking balls,” and it’s because of the response these subjects generate, and the seemingly futile nature of having this debate in a public forum. Not to mention that if you’re looking at the current layoff happy climate of the games industry, speaking up about this issue and possibly risking your job if it backfires doesn’t sound like the greatest idea ever.

If you were a woman at a game developer, would you want to speak up after reading that thread, or the countless others that sprouted up yesterday? Twitter is, at least, a place where you can do filtering and hear voices you regard.

“I’ve been watching the #1reasonwhy hashtag on Twitter with an anxious kind of understanding,” said games writer Katie Williams in a blog not long after #1reasonwhy started catching fire. “Like, part of me wants to jump right in and post a dozen of my own experiences, but I’ve also learned what happens if you say that shit publicly: you’re berated, blamed, dismissed. I’ve been there.”

She is not alone, and I don’t blame her for it.

I suspect there's an underlying fear involved in all of this, as well. "What does this mean for the games we love? What if we're okay with how games are made already? Don't ruin them!" Change, while painful, is often healthy, but I'm also realistic. I don't expect drastic change due to market realities--what sells well will continue to sell well, and that includes plenty of dudebro that, hey, I also enjoy playing! You know, even if the Entertainment Software Association does report that 47% of all game players are women. If there's better women representation in development, those people given a bigger voice, it's not going to make the video games you already enjoy go away. But maybe it means video game companies will be more willing to create games for a growing audience who play games because they love games but do not have characters that speak to them. It might not change publishers who release games with women protagonists but don't support them with marketing, but change happens slowly.

Again, it’s weird. I’m a guy, I’ve never had to deal with any of these problems. But I’m willing to admit where there’s smoke, there’s probably fire, and listening is helpful, informative. If you don’t want to listen, you don’t have to. No one is forcing you. Just stop shouting down others who want to.

As with last time, I'll leave you with my own contribution, this time for #1reasontobe.

#1reasontobe Because we need strong female role models, and more of them. It won't solve everything, but it's a start.

— Patrick Klepek (@patrickklepek) November 28, 2012
Patrick Klepek on Google+

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NathanStack

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@Zetetic_Elench: You are a crazy person and I feel sorry about whatever has fucked your life so bad.

I hope one day you find peace.

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Potts

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@AV_Gamer said:

Patrick has turned Giantbomb into website where actual news and discussions of the industry need to happen. Of course, Giantbomb is not about that. It's about being non serious and sarcastic all the time, like Jeff and Ryan. This is why a lot of the Giantbomb sheep are mad. Don't listen to them Patrick, do your job, which is to be a video game journalist. That's what Giantbomb hired you for. Clearly, many of the members didn't get the memo.

Pretty much this. Patrick really classes up the joint, and brings a different voice to GB, one that is certainly welcome.

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@GreggD: I think conversing with her has reached the point of "flag and forget."

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@Hailinel said:

@GreggD: I think conversing with her has reached the point of "flag and forget."

Yeah, seriously. Saying what I did felt good, though. Got out a little steam. And yeah, now to flag the post. Also, for good measure I deleted my own response that quoted her post. No sense keeping around that shitty redundancy.

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AV_Gamer

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@greennoodles: Great point. And more importantly, how would the Giant Bomb community accept it if they did hire an African American or even a Woman to become part of the main Giantbomb cast. I might be wrong, but my gut tells me that Ryan Davis would be strongly against it.

It's not like they can't be fun, popular, personalities about video games. This guy proves it: http://www.youtube.com/user/soldierknowsbest

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EnduranceFun

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@Potts: I'll have any respect for Patrick when and if he handles the backlash to this article. So far I've seen some tweets about 'bringing out the worst in the community,' 'systematic shaming' and a joke in bad taste on TNT about it [yes, he can joke, please no 'why so serious' responses], so no such luck as of this moment. But whatever, I think the comments section of these articles was where shit went down and the staff can't keep up. We laughed, we cried, we checked our cis privilege, no amount of snark and dismissal can take away that we actually had a decent conversation, at times. I certainly got something out of it.

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Bourbon_Warrior

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@Potts said:

@AV_Gamer said:

Patrick has turned Giantbomb into website where actual news and discussions of the industry need to happen. Of course, Giantbomb is not about that. It's about being non serious and sarcastic all the time, like Jeff and Ryan. This is why a lot of the Giantbomb sheep are mad. Don't listen to them Patrick, do your job, which is to be a video game journalist. That's what Giantbomb hired you for. Clearly, many of the members didn't get the memo.

Pretty much this. Patrick really classes up the joint, and brings a different voice to GB, one that is certainly welcome.

It's the reason Jeff and got Patrick on the staff after he was impressed with Patricks articles for the other sites he worked for,. I just don't get the hate on him pointing out this cause, it sucks how bad this community has become the more users have joined.

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MariachiMacabre

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@BoomSnapClap113

You should see the oilfield. It is BRUTAL up here for sexism. Something really does need to happen, not just in the games industry, not even just with sexism. With human behaviour in general. WHY is it we can't all just be nice to one another. Stop labelling ourselves as black, white, male, female, jewish, a bears fan, What the Fuck Ever! And just realize we are all just Human Fucking Beings. Act Like It!

#TeamPeople

You mean the Bakken field? Because as a ND resident up until 6 months ago, I can sadly say its no longer just in the oilfield. The entire state is going nuts with violence, and a big chunk of it is aimed at women.
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@MariachiMacabre said:

@BoomSnapClap113

You should see the oilfield. It is BRUTAL up here for sexism. Something really does need to happen, not just in the games industry, not even just with sexism. With human behaviour in general. WHY is it we can't all just be nice to one another. Stop labelling ourselves as black, white, male, female, jewish, a bears fan, What the Fuck Ever! And just realize we are all just Human Fucking Beings. Act Like It!

#TeamPeople



You mean the Bakken field? Because as a ND resident up until 6 months ago, I can sadly say its no longer just in the oilfield. The entire state is going nuts with violence, and a big chunk of it is aimed at women.

I'm green on this subject, can you explain why there's so much violence?

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MariachiMacabre

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@GreggD

@MariachiMacabre said:

@BoomSnapClap113

You should see the oilfield. It is BRUTAL up here for sexism. Something really does need to happen, not just in the games industry, not even just with sexism. With human behaviour in general. WHY is it we can't all just be nice to one another. Stop labelling ourselves as black, white, male, female, jewish, a bears fan, What the Fuck Ever! And just realize we are all just Human Fucking Beings. Act Like It!

#TeamPeople



You mean the Bakken field? Because as a ND resident up until 6 months ago, I can sadly say its no longer just in the oilfield. The entire state is going nuts with violence, and a big chunk of it is aimed at women.

I'm green on this subject, can you explain why there's so much violence?

It's one of the largest oilfield to ever be found so the oil companies are paying loads to people willing to work in the fields. And now scumbags from all over are moving into the state, making tons of money and getting fucking hammered. In a state as safe as ND, this caused crime rates statewide to skyrocket.
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Come on, guys, we're almost there. This shambling beast can get to 1600 comments, too. I believe in you, duders!

And judging by this lively response, Patrick should have a weekly blog series on this topic as part of an ongoing investigation into a more substantive piece which could benefit all involved.

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FierceDeity

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@biosfear said:

while I am very grateful you're keeping up the discussion on this and calling out some comments for what they are - ignorant. I take issue with the fact that you make sure to distance yourself from the term "feminist". Like someone else said, all it means is you're for equality for women which is what most people should be. If you care about human rights, surprise! You're a feminist!

I ****ing hate the attempt by some to turn "feminist" into a blanket term for anyone who isn't scum. I don't identify myself as an anti-racist, a feminist, or a humanist. But that doesn't mean I'm a racist, a misogynist, or a misanthrope. "Feminist", whether people like it or not, is a very politically charged term. As an apolitical person, I refuse to associate myself with such a thing.

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@MariachiMacabre said:

@GreggD

@MariachiMacabre said:

@BoomSnapClap113

You should see the oilfield. It is BRUTAL up here for sexism. Something really does need to happen, not just in the games industry, not even just with sexism. With human behaviour in general. WHY is it we can't all just be nice to one another. Stop labelling ourselves as black, white, male, female, jewish, a bears fan, What the Fuck Ever! And just realize we are all just Human Fucking Beings. Act Like It!

#TeamPeople



You mean the Bakken field? Because as a ND resident up until 6 months ago, I can sadly say its no longer just in the oilfield. The entire state is going nuts with violence, and a big chunk of it is aimed at women.

I'm green on this subject, can you explain why there's so much violence?



It's one of the largest oilfield to ever be found so the oil companies are paying loads to people willing to work in the fields. And now scumbags from all over are moving into the state, making tons of money and getting fucking hammered. In a state as safe as ND, this caused crime rates statewide to skyrocket.

Man, that sounds like a bad scene. I'm sorry your state is suffering from it.

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@BigDaddy81: I'm sorry, I didn't realize that female game developers were being physically abused in the workplace. In that case, yes, we should make a big deal out of it. The problem is that we're talking about individual experiences in the workplace. There are gonna be shitty people no matter where you work, and no matter what sex or race you are. I'm telling you that female gamers told me that it's not the big deal that these people are making it out to be and your response is that they're wrong. So you're gonna save these poor defenseless little women, who can't take care of themselves, whether they want you to or not, and I'm the one that uses ignorant logic? Things do "magically get better", do you honestly think that there are more women making and playing games now, versus ten years ago, because you defended the women on a gaming website? Or because someone like Patrick wrote an article about it.

The sad thing is that all of the female gamers that I know and game with only want one thing: to be treated as an equal, not a girl gamer, but just a gamer, or someone who enjoys games. But that will never happen because people like you and Patrick are determined to show them and everyone else how miserable they should be as women in the gaming industry.

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#reasonwhythisisridiculous

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@ZedsDeadBaby said:

@Bob_Loblaw said:

Yeah Patrick why don't you do something about it? Like writing a front page article on your website promoting the cause despite knowing that most major gaming websites will just pretend it isn't a story in case it upset their shouty manbaby contingent.

And then doubling down and writing another in the face of such a response because just because something is unpopular with a subset of a community doesn't mean it's not important to still discuss it rather than just not rocking the boat.

Yeah Patrick why haven't you solved sexism already you lazy fuck?

:)

Because quoting some twitter messages is really high quality journalism.

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@JasonR86 Why does the original article need an even more nuanced tone? How do you even put a nuance on sexism? By putting it in a larger societal framework? They tried that earlier in the year when the whole FGC story was discussed on the Bombcast and people have already accused them of excusing that kind of behaviour.
Why didn't you read the article as a story about men, how they sometimes engage in despicable behaviour and highlighting that? Why can't Patrick close his article with his statement that men in general could try a bit harder to understand what other people are going through (an excellent rule to live life by, regardless of gender)?

I don't doubt your good intentions but asking someone to pull punches when it comes to men or diverting the attention away from the offenders comes dangerously close to a place no one wants to be.
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@LikeaSsur said:

@NyxFe: Thank you for assuming what I am or am not doing with my time. Also, for all your time and energies spent toward convincing everyone that they're feminist, the word egalitarian has slipped your radar completely.

Feminist is a subset of egalitarian, and if you are egalitarian you are feminist by definition. Since the discussion was on sexism and feminism that subset is what I was discussing. If you want to get into race, sexuality, class, and religion as well I'm sure we can get news stories with well over 2000 comments. 
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@FierceDeity said:

@ZedsDeadBaby said:

@Bob_Loblaw said:

Yeah Patrick why don't you do something about it? Like writing a front page article on your website promoting the cause despite knowing that most major gaming websites will just pretend it isn't a story in case it upset their shouty manbaby contingent.

And then doubling down and writing another in the face of such a response because just because something is unpopular with a subset of a community doesn't mean it's not important to still discuss it rather than just not rocking the boat.

Yeah Patrick why haven't you solved sexism already you lazy fuck?

:)

Because quoting some twitter messages is really high quality journalism.

Seems like a good way to report on something involving Twitter to me.

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@Gaff said:

@JasonR86 Why does the original article need an even more nuanced tone? How do you even put a nuance on sexism? By putting it in a larger societal framework? They tried that earlier in the year when the whole FGC story was discussed on the Bombcast and people have already accused them of excusing that kind of behaviour. Why didn't you read the article as a story about men, how they sometimes engage in despicable behaviour and highlighting that? Why can't Patrick close his article with his statement that men in general could try a bit harder to understand what other people are going through (an excellent rule to live life by, regardless of gender)? I don't doubt your good intentions but asking someone to pull punches when it comes to men or diverting the attention away from the offenders comes dangerously close to a place no one wants to be.

-I never really said that the original article needed a more nuanced tone. The tone comment was made by another user in that quote train. I think the original article comes off a little pretentious but that's just the way Patrick writes and it doesn't bother me that much.

-I'm not sure if I would put nuance on the problem of sexism. I think it's more grey then people might like to say. I think being on extremes on any issue is bad because, to me, both sides are just as bad for different reasons. The reality is that somewhere in the middle between those that are against this campaign and those that are for it is where a viable solution will be found.

-I didn't say that we should not focus on offenders or assholes in these forums. Many people have posed other inequalities and used them to steer the conversation away from sexism involving female victims in the gaming and technology industries. I was stating that those people should stop bringing up those inequalities and rather focus on the actual topic at hand.

-I think pointing out offenders and damning them is unnecessary but that wasn't what was being brought up in the post you were replying to. I've said this earlier in the thread but, if the point of this thread and of the twitter campaign is to raise awareness then the people who need their awareness check are those that are being called out as assholes by the staff and community. If we want these people, who in many ways are acting like jerks don't get me wrong, to take to heart what is being done here we need them to stay long enough and to engage long enough in this conversation to get something out of it. Yelling at them, calling them out, and calling them names does nothing. By doing this this campaign, as it is being represented in this thread and by this staff, is simply preaching to the choir and shunning the 'others'. It's those 'others' who are the exact people who need to be involved in this discussion.

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I want to be that 1,600th comment really badly.

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@Zetetic_Elench said:

#killallmen is about patriarchy, you idiots. You know, the kind that lets MRAs fucking thrive. If you feeling threatened by that hashtag, you're part of the fucking problem. Which has been pretty thoroughly established at this point though so it's kind of a null point to test the waters with it.

You have to be fucking kidding...right?

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@NyxFe said:

@LikeaSsur said:

@NyxFe: Thank you for assuming what I am or am not doing with my time. Also, for all your time and energies spent toward convincing everyone that they're feminist, the word egalitarian has slipped your radar completely.

Feminist is a subset of egalitarian, and if you are egalitarian you are feminist by definition.

By that logic, wouldn't you also have to be a masculinist?

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Perhaps the best reporting ever on this site. While I love the crew on videos and podcasts, this story reminds me why patrickklepek is a crucial part of the staff.

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SirGregoryEdmunson

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@Paul_Tillich: Are you sure it's this one, and not one of his dozen other identical articles on the subject?

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@NyxFe: Look....I'm....sincerely sorry that I think differently than you do, really. It's a real shame that we have different definitions of a word (and don't give me the bullshark about "The dictionary definition says this!" Because hey English language, what are you doing here with multiple meanings?), really, but I am not a feminist. Never have been, never will be. Sorry. I'm an egalitarian, not a feminist. Deal with it.

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I think we can all agree that sexism is bad.  Now lets move on and talk about what we can do about it in our own personal lives/the gaming community.  Im pretty sure this is the kind of conversation that Patrick has been aiming for in these articles.  Not endless bickering about nonsense.  

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@Vampir:

I just think that we live in a place now where you can speak up.

If somebody mentioned something about there being a "vagina in the room" you can tell them that something like that offended you, and if that doesn't work you can always take it higher up. I suppose the problem is that some women think that because it's a male dominated industry they can't speak up. If anything, these women need to know that they have the power to stop it, just like you said, a lot of men don't realize they're saying sexist things, but if these women would tell them that I'm sure those people would re-examine what they said. I don't think there needs to be a special "woman" rule, that'd be terrible, and incredibly sexist. I just think that any woman who hears something that offends them should actually tell the person who said those things, and if they get lippy or sexist you can just take it higher up. Holding onto it and posting it on twitter does nothing to solve the problem, again, another good twitter movement would be revealing to women in the work place that they do have the power to stop any sexism pointed their way by simply speaking up. Being surrounded by males may seem oppressive on the surface, but we don't all think the same, and I'm sure the majority of us will hear you out.

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@Frain said:

@Vampir:

I just think that we live in a place now where you can speak up.

If somebody mentioned something about there being a "vagina in the room" you can tell them that something like that offended you, and if that doesn't work you can always take it higher up. I suppose the problem is that some women think that because it's a male dominated industry they can't speak up. If anything, these women need to know that they have the power to stop it, just like you said, a lot of men don't realize they're saying sexist things, but if these women would tell them that I'm sure those people would re-examine what they said. I don't think there needs to be a special "woman" rule, that'd be terrible, and incredibly sexist. I just think that any woman who hears something that offends them should actually tell the person who said those things, and if they get lippy or sexist you can just take it higher up. Holding onto it and posting it on twitter does nothing to solve the problem, again, another good twitter movement would be revealing to women in the work place that they do have the power to stop any sexism pointed their way by simply speaking up. Being surrounded by males may seem oppressive on the surface, but we don't all think the same, and I'm sure the majority of us will hear you out.

It should be true that we live in a place where you can speak up, but it's not always the case. There have already been some reports of people involved in the hash-tag having backlash at work for what they posted. The "you can always take it higher up" argument assumes a sympathetic higher up. In the tweet I referenced, "vagina in the room" was something yelled in front of other coworkers, boss included. When something like that seems to be the accepted culture of the office, speaking up can seem risky. It might resolve the issue, but it also might stir up trouble and put your job in danger. I agree that people should feel more free to speak up about these things, but I think sharing these stories and getting more and more voices in support works toward that goal. I also don't think victims should be the only ones who should have to speak up. Silence is complicity.

There definitely shouldn't be a special "woman" rule, but I don't think anyone is suggesting that.

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It's a real shame we even have to have this discussion. Men and women should be treated equally, end of story. There really doesn't need to be much more said on the topic.

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@Subjugation said:

It's a real shame we even have to have this discussion. Men and women should be treated equally, end of story. There really doesn't need to be much more said on the topic.

They don't really care they are just trolling their way to 1600 comments, there I helped.

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@JasonR86 said:

@Gamer_152:

I get where you're coming from dude and in many ways I agree with you. I've already said before the problems I have with this specific campaign but I'll see it's benefits. I guess the issue I have now has to do with this article linking directly to this community and the conversations that have been had about sexism as a whole. This article has perpetuated, intentionally or not, a black and white response to the issue of sexism. The community has responded with a black or white response in kind. This 'us versus them' mentality helps no one. Jeff's comment earlier didn't help at all. Moderating and calling out people who are directly opposed to the campaign (rightfully so in a lot of cases) or even who have questioned the tactics behind the campaign while leaving the extremist on the other side of the issue who have been just as rabid doesn't help either. The basic conversation that the article posits and the community has had isn't helpful.

I am happy to hear about the #1reasonmentors thing you mentioned. That sounds really cool. That is the sort of campaign I would like to hear about. I mentioned this earlier but I asked Patrick to forgo another article of this caliber and look to cover sexism in a new way. Interview the people behind this campaign. Do a month long series on women in the game industry. Just something else because the conversation that has come out of this article just isn't helpful. I can't really explain why. It's too easy to say 'lol itz the internet' or 'white men being all sexist' or any of the other immediate responses we have seen to the negative responses to this article. But whatever it is almost doesn't matter that much. It should have been clear after the first article but sexism certainly does need to continue to be covered but it looks like it needs to be covered differently.

Before anything else, I'd like to say that we have not been moderating people who have been questioning the tactics behind the campaign or anything close to it, and that the same forum rules apply for both sides of this argument. If we really had been moderating anyone who said the slightest thing negative about this campaign, most of the comments in here just wouldn't exist. I still don't understand why people shouldn't be challenged on their opinions though. I think it often feels like there's an unnecessary divide between the staff of websites and the audiences, and I think talking to them directly and responding to the general comments that have been made, both acts as a way for the staff to connect with the community, and for it to be seen if the arguments on both sides really stand up to scrutiny. I mean the staff's expertise and presence is a large part of the reason why we visit this site in the first place.

Where I think things have really fallen down along these lines is that the community has not responded with the same empathy, civility, and level of reason that Patrick originally wrote these articles with. You could be presenting the best argument in the world, but if the majority of the people assessing it aren't willing to discuss it in a sensible manner, there's not much you can do, then it only makes sense to me to talk to them directly, to try and open up a direct dialogue to see if both sides of the argument can better be understood or opinions can be swayed. And as much as I like your idea of Patrick doing interviews with the prominent contributors to the hashtag, I don't see how the situation we're experiencing would be too much different from what it is now.

How does further bringing the voice of these developers to the community really change things, when doing so to begin with proved there are still huge swathes of it that are aware of the problem and either think that the discrimination and mistreatment of women in the industry isn't something to worry about, or are unable to discuss it without hampering the entire discussion via flinging insults and acting like kids? I can agree with you up to a point that this conversation isn't helpful, but with all due respect Jason if you can't explain why it's not helpful, there's not much of an argument to be had there. I think this conversation is at least somewhat helpful, just greatly restricted by the way people are losing their minds. Even regardless of the conversation though I think these articles in themselves do good.

I'm a little hesitant to discuss the idea of Patrick and the community presenting things in black and white because I don't feel like I have a full picture of what you're talking about, but as I said before I thought Patrick presented his arguments very fairly, and I think one side of these argument is being far, far more unreasonable than the other. I'm not seeing a ton of points from the other side of the argument that really bare any merit, and the bad points seem to be coming overwhelmingly from one side, but perhaps I'm not looking hard enough. At any rate I'm worried about the ability of someone in Patrick's position to talk about any deeper moral ambiguities, when we have a huge number of people who we can't even get to agree on the idea that the way women are treated in the industry is something to care about in the first place.

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I think everything about this article is the dumbest thing ever, and that's barely even hyperbolic. Everything from making a second article that distinguishes itself with an arbitrary and pointless response to a one off internet comment, to the quoting of tweets as journalism, and everything in between is just embarrassing.

I'm hoping with all my heart that Patrick doesn't run his mouth off for an hour on the Bombcast about this shit with the usual, "This is what I think so you have to agree otherwise you're scum," kind of arguments that plague the close minded.

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I don't know about you guys, but I haven't prevented any women from enjoying a video game today and I haven't stopped any women from joining the gaming industry, today. Or ever, as far as I know.

Yay! Girl power and stuff! So. Uh. Yeah, working conditions sometimes suck and people are sometimes assholes. I don't know what to tell you about it. Either be a gamer/developer or don't, I guess. I mean, I don't run any tech companies. If I did, I wouldn't discriminate in my hiring and I'd set an example for treating people based on merit.

In the meantime, it just continues to seem to be a whole lot of blah blah blah-ing and "journalists" pointing the finger at evil video game players who are put into the position of automatically feeling a bit defensive, when they haven't contributed to anything negatively as far as this goes (well, with the few exceptions, of course).

Ladies -- if you want to make games, go do it. Make good ones and I'll buy them. I don't really give a shit if you're a girl or if protagonists are girls or not. If you want to go bake cakes or work retail or be in advertising, go do that, too. Again, I don't care. If you're the victim of harassment or something else, visit your HR department. The rest of us can't really do anything about your circumstances, except maybe (I guess?) send big mean twitter messages to game publishers and developers that say something like "hey #treatwomenright and stuff".

In the mean time. Holy fucking shit am I tired of this discussion. And Patrick, feel free to pick this statement and include it in another post as an example of evil apathetic gamers. I'm in my mid-thirties; it's not like women's issues just came out of nowhere in 2012 or something. It's old, it's tired, and I can't do much more about it today than I did ten years ago (except maybe write my own articles).

Also, a thought: Where are the articles and movements about racism, homophobia, and xenophobia in games? Hell, even ageism! (I can't believe you can get harassed in video games now because you're "so fucking old and shouldn't be playing video games"). If we're going to keep beating people over the heads with the wet-baguette of social-issues-in-gaming-and-technology, can we at least switch it up with a little variety?

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@Jeff said:

Wow, Kotaku must be thrilled to see their name mentioned so much here. I mean, if genuine articles about actual, serious issues make people think of them then they must be doing something right, huh? It's certainly a step up from the typical complaint they get about... video game cakes and Japanese panty shots or whatever it is.

It's sad to see some of you people get so furious over the basic idea of equality, as if that's something that should be argued about instead of just being implicitly understood. I mean, did you grow up with mothers that were constantly putting cigarettes out on your arms or something?

Or are you just currently growing up as an outsider and feel the need to lash out whenever anyone claims that there are groups of people out there that somehow have it even worse than you do? I was like you once. I was angry all the time. As I grew up I cooled down and gained a little perspective on the world. I hope, for your sakes, that you have a similar experience and get out of your weird, little bubble, at least for a little while. It gets oppressively ignorant in there.

As Jonathan Blow has said, don't assume you actually understand anything anyone else on the internet is trying to say. This is how communication theory works. Messages cannot be sent to receivers even in person, let alone on the internet through text on a comments section.

It's sad to see such a shoddy excuse for journalism on the site, followed up by a pointless, assuming, accusing, and purposefully inflammatory quip from someone who's been at this for such a long time. I consider Giant Bomb to be leading the way for what game coverage will be, and stuff like this just shows me how far it has yet to come.

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@Vampir said:

@Frain said:

@Vampir:

I just think that we live in a place now where you can speak up.

If somebody mentioned something about there being a "vagina in the room" you can tell them that something like that offended you, and if that doesn't work you can always take it higher up. I suppose the problem is that some women think that because it's a male dominated industry they can't speak up. If anything, these women need to know that they have the power to stop it, just like you said, a lot of men don't realize they're saying sexist things, but if these women would tell them that I'm sure those people would re-examine what they said. I don't think there needs to be a special "woman" rule, that'd be terrible, and incredibly sexist. I just think that any woman who hears something that offends them should actually tell the person who said those things, and if they get lippy or sexist you can just take it higher up. Holding onto it and posting it on twitter does nothing to solve the problem, again, another good twitter movement would be revealing to women in the work place that they do have the power to stop any sexism pointed their way by simply speaking up. Being surrounded by males may seem oppressive on the surface, but we don't all think the same, and I'm sure the majority of us will hear you out.

It should be true that we live in a place where you can speak up, but it's not always the case. There have already been some reports of people involved in the hash-tag having backlash at work for what they posted. The "you can always take it higher up" argument assumes a sympathetic higher up. In the tweet I referenced, "vagina in the room" was something yelled in front of other coworkers, boss included. When something like that seems to be the accepted culture of the office, speaking up can seem risky. It might resolve the issue, but it also might stir up trouble and put your job in danger. I agree that people should feel more free to speak up about these things, but I think sharing these stories and getting more and more voices in support works toward that goal. I also don't think victims should be the only ones who should have to speak up. Silence is complicity.

There definitely shouldn't be a special "woman" rule, but I don't think anyone is suggesting that.

If the higher up isn't sympathetic then would you really want to be working there? Also I know it seemed the accepted culture of the office, but these days if something is offending you it's your duty to speak up. What are they going to do? Fire you? That's suicide for them, something like that would spread over the internet so fast it would be ridiculous. You accomplish nothing by staying silent. I believe women are independent enough to let people know when they're offended, and if they aren't, they should be encouraged to be. It might even be more effective for women to post about overcoming sexism in the workplace. I want to know what did that woman do after that guy talked about there being a "Vagina in the room"? Was she offended? but she said nothing because a group of her coworkers and her boss was there? What if they aren't sexist, what if they weren't trying to be? By being silent you're allowing this person to go on and make more sexist comments to more women because you decided to keep it inside and he might not even mean to be offending. Again, I grew up in the south and knew tons of people who were racist without meaning to be. I definitely told them whenever they would do it if it offended me and every time it turned out they weren't trying to offend me. The "woman" rule thing was from another comment a little ways back, I don't think he was serious, at least I hope not.

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@Gamer_152 said:

@JasonR86 said:

@Gamer_152:

I get where you're coming from dude and in many ways I agree with you. I've already said before the problems I have with this specific campaign but I'll see it's benefits. I guess the issue I have now has to do with this article linking directly to this community and the conversations that have been had about sexism as a whole. This article has perpetuated, intentionally or not, a black and white response to the issue of sexism. The community has responded with a black or white response in kind. This 'us versus them' mentality helps no one. Jeff's comment earlier didn't help at all. Moderating and calling out people who are directly opposed to the campaign (rightfully so in a lot of cases) or even who have questioned the tactics behind the campaign while leaving the extremist on the other side of the issue who have been just as rabid doesn't help either. The basic conversation that the article posits and the community has had isn't helpful.

I am happy to hear about the #1reasonmentors thing you mentioned. That sounds really cool. That is the sort of campaign I would like to hear about. I mentioned this earlier but I asked Patrick to forgo another article of this caliber and look to cover sexism in a new way. Interview the people behind this campaign. Do a month long series on women in the game industry. Just something else because the conversation that has come out of this article just isn't helpful. I can't really explain why. It's too easy to say 'lol itz the internet' or 'white men being all sexist' or any of the other immediate responses we have seen to the negative responses to this article. But whatever it is almost doesn't matter that much. It should have been clear after the first article but sexism certainly does need to continue to be covered but it looks like it needs to be covered differently.

Before anything else, I'd like to say that we have not been moderating people who have been questioning the tactics behind the campaign or anything close to it, and that the same forum rules apply for both sides of this argument. If we really had been moderating anyone who said the slightest thing negative about this campaign, most of the comments in here just wouldn't exist. I still don't understand why people shouldn't be challenged on their opinions though. I think it often feels like there's an unnecessary divide between the staff of websites and the audiences, and I think talking to them directly and responding to the general comments that have been made, both acts as a way for the staff to connect with the community, and for it to be seen if the arguments on both sides really stand up to scrutiny. I mean the staff's expertise and presence is a large part of the reason why we visit this site in the first place.

Where I think things have really fallen down along these lines is that the community has not responded with the same empathy, civility, and level of reason that Patrick originally wrote these articles with. You could be presenting the best argument in the world, but if the majority of the people assessing it aren't willing to discuss it in a sensible manner, there's not much you can do, then it only makes sense to me to talk to them directly, to try and open up a direct dialogue to see if both sides of the argument can better be understood or opinions can be swayed. And as much as I like your idea of Patrick doing interviews with the prominent contributors to the hashtag, I don't see how the situation we're experiencing would be too much different from what it is now.

How does further bringing the voice of these developers to the community really change things, when doing so to begin with proved there are still huge swathes of it that are aware of the problem and either think that the discrimination and mistreatment of women in the industry isn't something to worry about, or are unable to discuss it without hampering the entire discussion via flinging insults and acting like kids? I can agree with you up to a point that this conversation isn't helpful, but with all due respect Jason if you can't explain why it's not helpful, there's not much of an argument to be had there. I think this conversation is at least somewhat helpful, just greatly restricted by the way people are losing their minds. Even regardless of the conversation though I think these articles in themselves do good.

I'm a little hesitant to discuss the idea of Patrick and the community presenting things in black and white because I don't feel like I have a full picture of what you're talking about, but as I said before I thought Patrick presented his arguments very fairly, and I think one side of these argument is being far, far more unreasonable than the other. I'm not seeing a ton of points from the other side of the argument that really bare any merit, and the bad points seem to be coming overwhelmingly from one side, but perhaps I'm not looking hard enough. At any rate I'm worried about the ability of someone in Patrick's position to talk about any deeper moral ambiguities, when we have a huge number of people who we can't even get to agree on the idea that the way women are treated in the industry is something to care about in the first place.

-There's one member in particular who has been actively attacking people in here, reasonable and unreasonable, who said negative things about the article. This member has said some pretty bad things and, at least from the outside looking in, nothing has been done. But, and I can't stress this enough, you are 100% right in saying the vast majority of people who are acting poorly in this thread and the other thread are clearly on one side of the issue and part of me wishes they never had a voice in this matter as trolling serves no one. And one person acting poorly on one side certainly doesn't tip the scale as there have been countless number of members acting poorly on the other.

-This almost seems like an issue that can't be had with community involvement on the internet. I hate to say that but at some point I guess we need to come to the conclusion that anonymity is too large a burden to handle. If Patrick wishes to continue to write these articles, I would almost suggest locking the threads so that the community can't be involved. I know that goes against what Giantbomb is about but these two threads are embarrassing.

-I wish I could explain what the conversation needs to look like in order for these threads to really feel productive. I still hold that simply chastising people who pick on the article and the campaign, no matter how shitty their behavior, is counter-productive to the cause of the article and campaign. Those people are the ones that need their awareness raised most of all. But they won't stick around and take to heart anything being said if they are attacked even if they deserve it. They'll just stick around to troll. Challenging an opinion is one thing. Attacking is quite another and I believe putting a member's quote in an article, Jeff's comment along with a myriad of member comments have been attacking (albeit no where near the severity of some of the terrible things that were said on the other side). There's an old saying I heard from a professor about doing psychotherapy. 'Sometimes you have to soak yourself in pickle juice'. In my case he was stating that a therapist occasionally has to be attacked, hated, have their views challenged, have their personality challenged, and so on before they can really help a client. That part of the job is a given and one that the therapist has to come to terms with. In this case, people on the pro side of the article and the campaign need to be open to all the shit that will come from rattling cages, deal with all the hate, and work to settle it so that those who spewed the hate can learn from what the campaigners are trying to say. It seems to me that a lot of people weren't prepared for the backlash that came from this topic and so the first response was to bite back. What does that solve?

-I'm absolutely fine with Patrick discussing moral ambiguities personally though I can't speak for the rest of the members. But I'm also concerned about how he is going to present these articles. I know Giantbomb is about personality and editorializing is par for the course. But the very nature of a morally ambiguous topic is that there is a lot of grey and it is hard to suss out proper sides of the argument let alone which side is worth propelling. In this topic in particular it is very clear where Patrick stands. Which is fine. But that's the only side the article really gives any weight to. The other side, specifically the side full of members acting poorly, was not. The articles need to be fully rounded to have an intellectual impact. Otherwise it sounds like preaching.

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I'm really fascinated by the people who have been holding an internet conversation/discussion/argument on a forum for 80 pages and a span of days. I mean, god damn, where do you get the time, the patience and the energy to type long ass posts and read longer ass ones, let alone the interest?

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So... I just want to say I agree with the sentiment of this campaign and support it, but I don't think this is a very good article at all.

I mean, I'm all for equality and if women are treated poorly in this industry (I'm a guy, so I don't get exposed that much to it) then this is a worthwhile cause and awareness should be raised. I wholeheartedly support this.

However, this article just comes across as if it's written by someone who's butthurt because people were dicks to him (or dicks in general). Also, as a journalist myself, I feel like it's just kinda lazy. It's a blog post, really, and I feel like Patrick - as a member of the staff - should be above this. And as much as raising awareness is fine, just quoting a bunch of tweets doesn't necessarily make a great article.

I'm kind of a fan of Patrick's work here on the site, I think he's a good journalist and writer in general and I have no problem with him tackling social issues in these pieces. I thought the articles he did about the fighting game scene and the misoginy there were quite good. This one, however, is not.

He did say he's planning on doing interviews and other more investigative articles about this subject, so I'll just say I'm really looking forward to those.

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All the white-knights.

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I'm going to start this by saying, I read this and decided not the comment initially due to it's subject matter and the inevitably shitty comments. I've decided against that now. I commend you Patrick for making a political stance and using your job as a platform for writing about that stance. Politics are a fact of life, and to ignore them is to ignore a piece of yourself. That said, I'm going to run through my problems with this and the prior piece on women in this industry.

The problem with the prior piece and this one to a lesser extent in my opinion is that it victimizes women, and while I'm no expert by any means, playing the victim role in male dominated industry doesn't seem like the way to get ahead. Furthermore, as these comments indicate, you attract resentment over the victim stance. When one side has an advantage, you can never get ahead or equal for that matter by playing the victim. The dominate party will do what it can to ensure it's survival.

When one dude does something inappropriate to another dude, you say, "Dude lay the fuck off." If women are going to get ahead, this language seems more advantageous than the latter because our culture is the dominate. That's not to say that women aren't the victim, but it's just not a persuasive argument to people on the fence. With anything political, if you want to be successful it's targeting the center, the core undecided person that is the most successful.

This piece or the prior doesn't do much for that person. You can read a litany of comments, as I did before posting, saying "I agree with the sentiment but I don't think this is the place for that." If Patrick had done a better job presenting the 'Journal of best practices' instead of the 'hey look at all these victims on twitter, let's talk about them' then it would have been more advantageous to the cause.

It's a fucking travesty that so few Mass Effect users play as Fem Shepard. She's the better voice acted of the two far in away in a game that's entire point is the dialog as far as I'm concerned.

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Nice, 8 more comments to go. Who knew the community at hand would be able to drag this out for so long?

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@AhmadMetallic said:

I'm really fascinated by the people who have been holding an internet conversation/discussion/argument on a forum for 80 pages and a span of days. I mean, god damn, where do you get the time, the patience and the energy to type long ass posts and read longer ass ones, let alone the interest?

I'm with you.

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@DoctorWelch said:

@Jeff said:

Wow, Kotaku must be thrilled to see their name mentioned so much here. I mean, if genuine articles about actual, serious issues make people think of them then they must be doing something right, huh? It's certainly a step up from the typical complaint they get about... video game cakes and Japanese panty shots or whatever it is.

It's sad to see some of you people get so furious over the basic idea of equality, as if that's something that should be argued about instead of just being implicitly understood. I mean, did you grow up with mothers that were constantly putting cigarettes out on your arms or something?

Or are you just currently growing up as an outsider and feel the need to lash out whenever anyone claims that there are groups of people out there that somehow have it even worse than you do? I was like you once. I was angry all the time. As I grew up I cooled down and gained a little perspective on the world. I hope, for your sakes, that you have a similar experience and get out of your weird, little bubble, at least for a little while. It gets oppressively ignorant in there.

As Jonathan Blow has said, don't assume you actually understand anything anyone else on the internet is trying to say. This is how communication theory works. Messages cannot be sent to receivers even in person, let alone on the internet through text on a comments section.

It's sad to see such a shoddy excuse for journalism on the site, followed up by a pointless, assuming, accusing, and purposefully inflammatory quip from someone who's been at this for such a long time. I consider Giant Bomb to be leading the way for what game coverage will be, and stuff like this just shows me how far it has yet to come.

In hindsight Jeff's comment was pretty bad. Though he did point out, quite rudely, that he had prefixed his second paragraph with 'some of you people,' it's clear to anyone who has paid any amount of attention, that is an extreme minority. The first paragraph comes off as a huge assumption that they are not. By ignoring the actual relevant conversation, he sends the message that the staff doesn't care and only sees these comments, a very long list of complaints more than anything else, as a lot of trolls.... when that isn't the case at all. I find it disappointing as someone who has been involved in this discussion since the beginning, that despite these articles having the most comments ever, the content of these comments is still dismissed. I have seen no signs to suggest otherwise.

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bigdaddy81

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@EnduranceFun said:

@DoctorWelch said:

@Jeff said:

Wow, Kotaku must be thrilled to see their name mentioned so much here. I mean, if genuine articles about actual, serious issues make people think of them then they must be doing something right, huh? It's certainly a step up from the typical complaint they get about... video game cakes and Japanese panty shots or whatever it is.

It's sad to see some of you people get so furious over the basic idea of equality, as if that's something that should be argued about instead of just being implicitly understood. I mean, did you grow up with mothers that were constantly putting cigarettes out on your arms or something?

Or are you just currently growing up as an outsider and feel the need to lash out whenever anyone claims that there are groups of people out there that somehow have it even worse than you do? I was like you once. I was angry all the time. As I grew up I cooled down and gained a little perspective on the world. I hope, for your sakes, that you have a similar experience and get out of your weird, little bubble, at least for a little while. It gets oppressively ignorant in there.

As Jonathan Blow has said, don't assume you actually understand anything anyone else on the internet is trying to say. This is how communication theory works. Messages cannot be sent to receivers even in person, let alone on the internet through text on a comments section.

It's sad to see such a shoddy excuse for journalism on the site, followed up by a pointless, assuming, accusing, and purposefully inflammatory quip from someone who's been at this for such a long time. I consider Giant Bomb to be leading the way for what game coverage will be, and stuff like this just shows me how far it has yet to come.

In hindsight Jeff's comment was pretty bad. Though he pointed, quite rudely, that he had prefixed his post with 'some of you people,' it's clear to anyone who has paid any amount of attention that is an extreme minority. By ignoring the actual relevant conversation, he sends the message that the staff doesn't care and only sees these comments, a very long list of complaints more than anything else, as a lot of trolls.... when that isn't the case at all. I find it disappointing as someone who has been involved in this discussion since the beginning, that despite these articles having the most comments ever, the content of these comments is still dismissed. I have seen no signs to suggest otherwise.

I feel Jeff's comment was correct and justified. He made it quite clear that he was only calling out "some" of the community. As I said in a previous post, because of the community's regard for Jeff, his word carries a lot of weight and his post probably shut down a lot of the people who were posting the most vitriolic nonsense. It didn't shut down the conversation and people who care deeply one way or the other are still articulating their points in this thread.

I don't think he was being dismissive as he usually doesn't detail his opinions too extensively in the forums. He has other avenues to express his opinion if he chooses to engage the issue.

His post was just an attempt to shut down the idiots who were making the most noise and drowning out the more civilized conversations that are still going on. If he wanted to dismiss the whole thing entirely, he probably would have just locked the thread.

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Carousel

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@BigDaddy81 said:

I feel Jeff's comment was correct and justified. He made it quite clear that he was only calling out "some" of the community.

And that's the problem.

Focusing on the fire starters instead of the actual discussion/ideas.

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EnduranceFun

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@CaptStickybeard said:

@BigDaddy81 said:

I feel Jeff's comment was correct and justified. He made it quite clear that he was only calling out "some" of the community.

And that's the problem.

Focusing on the fire starters instead of the actual discussion/ideas.

This. Like I said in my comment, the amount 'some' pertains to - and I made it very clear in my comment that he highlighted the word 'some,' so I don't know why you felt the need to re-highlight it as if I didn't - is a very tiny amount of commenters. And they were so intermittent and posting such small posts, I doubt they were even reading the rest of the comment section first; trying to 'stop them' with a forum post obviously would not work.

It honestly only threw fuel on the fire as Jeff did not acknowledge that this was a small amount of the commenters, only 'some,' allowing the implication to follow that 'hey, he may mean everyone who disagreed with the article!' That may not be what Jeff meant, but he hardly went out of his way to accurately portray the comments. That's irresponsible when he also acknowledged there are 'antagonizing posts.'

The best way to handle a tense situation is not to pop in with a vaguely defined insult directed at 'some people,' then leave immediately after, ensuring that no one can ask you to clarify what you just said.

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Porkellain

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Well, time to reach 1600 even on this thread.

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There.