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Sticking the Landing

Patrick's lengthy conversation with Entertainment Weekly writer Jeff Jensen on that ending, the concept of fan entitlement, and the perils of player agency.

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UPDATE: Make sure you read my story from last week, too: "When It's Over, It's Over." I consider this a compliment to that.

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[Note: This story does contain spoilers about the ending to Mass Effect 3 and TV show The Sopranos.]

The conversation about Mass Effect 3 continues, albeit one that's died down in the past week. That's unsurprising, as players wait to hear about BioWare's next move.

Will the studio change the ending? I'm betting not. Will the studio release downloadable content that provides more context and closure, and will that probably have been the plan all along? I'd say that's likely, but remains unclear.

As part of my story last week about the intense, polarizing, and government-filled reaction to the ending, I spent 30 minutes on the phone with Entertainment Weekly senior writer Jeff Jensen, himself a fellow Mass Effect fan, devotee at the shrine of Lost, and a frequent commentator on pop culture. Much of our conversation did not make it into my piece, but it felt worth sharing, especially the discussions about the concept of fan "entitlement," the precarious nature of endings, and the design struggles of player agency.

Let's contextualize this a bit, too.

This chat happened just as BioWare made its first public statement to fans, and Jensen had not finished the game, though he had read about the endings. As such, we didn't dive much into the narrative misgivings players with the final moments of Mass Effect 3 (which, believe me, I'm with you on), and focuses on the bigger picture.

Hope you enjoy it. It's a bit talky.

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Mass Effect 3 was the culmination of hundreds of hours of playing in a universe for many people.
Mass Effect 3 was the culmination of hundreds of hours of playing in a universe for many people.

Jeff Jensen: I’ll be honest with you, I only began playing Mass Effect 3 about a week and a half ago. I actually wasn’t really into it in the beginning, and I got distracted by other things, so I have to return to it, but catching up to the controversy is fascinating.

Giant Bomb: It’s interesting because, unlike other mediums, when there’s a television show, when theres’s a finale, or there’s a movie that’s a conclusion to some multi-part series, you can consume that in an hour-and-a-half, two hours. Mass Effect 3 took me 40 hours to finish. It’s not as simple as just booting it up one night so you can catch up, and find out what happened.

Jensen: You felt burned? Were you burned, personally?

GB: Not really. I was disappointed. They were going for something a little more audacious and bittersweet, and I do think a lot of the reaction has stemmed from that. A lot of people play these games to be the good guy that accomplishes everything, and video game endings, as a whole, the trope is that you’re the hero that’s unbeatable and everything turns out alright in the end. They went for something a little more mixed: things are out of your control. Bad things are going to happen no matter what you do, what choice you make. People have some real trouble processing that. Some wanted this “you saved the princess” ending that games have always have. Personally, as a player, it’s really important that they’re having this reaction. You don’t see that very often with a video game.

Jensen: A couple things about that. To prepare for this interview and other things that I’m working on, I actually went and read some sites and actually spoiled everything.

What I find interesting about what you're saying is that...it’s an interesting nuance that you’re talking about. It sounds like whatever scenario you choose, Earth blows up, right?

GB: Earth doesn’t necessarily get destroyed, but the mass relays do get destroyed. The thing that has allowed the universe to be unified, that goes away. In some sense, it’s the universe starting over. Some of them, Shepard dies, some of them, Shepard lives, but as far as I can tell, none of the endings I saw, and none of the endings I’ve read about, involve you saving the day in every capacity. There is no way, no matter what you do, that everything’s going to be alright for everybody. Bad shit happens at the end of Mass Effect 3, and there are consequences for that. I do think that’s part of the reaction--it’s an interesting reaction for BioWare to purposely provoke, but I think it’s an important one. In some way, it’s a commentary on the fact that these games are largely about player choice, and at the end, there’s a subversion of that. Part of this is out of your hands. Maybe that’s looking into it too much, but I do get a sense that there’s a purposeful subversion of the player to reflect that no matter what you do, bad things are going to happen.

Jensen: I really like what you’re saying. It sounds like what BioWare really wanted exactly the kind of dialogue that we are having here, which is, I think, they hoped we could get to the end and everyone that plays this game...it’s having exactly the kind of emotional experience that you’re having but also the kind of reflective experience that you’re having, which seems really worthwhile, and pretty quality. But instead, it gets unfortunately minimized into just the simple issue of satisfaction and catharsis and all that.

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GB: Specifically, Lost was the first analogy that came to mind. I’m sure, as someone that writes a lot about TV and movies, you witness fan entitlement, or the sense of entitlement that fans feel when they’re on this long journey. Whether it’s a series of movies over several years or a TV show over several years, fans come to expect certain things. I’m curious what you’ve perceived over the years, whether from Lost or other shows and movies, how creators in those mediums deal with that sense of entitlement from fans, given the creators themselves have a vision in mind for how they want things to play out.

Jensen: What I would say that the controversies around the finales of Lost and Mass Effect and other examples, too, that we see in pop culture, like for example last year with the television show The Killing, which also kind of flummoxed a lot of people with how they ended the first season. What we are reminded of is that in entertainment, and especially in the mediums of television and video games, they are ultimately service industries. Which is to say the customer is always right, and that’s going to be frustrating for storytellers to hear because ultimately you exist, your product exists, at the whims and desire of your consumer base. If they’re happy, if they’re unhappy, they’re right. Even if they’re wrong, they’re right. You have to deal with it, right? You have to deal with it.

You look at BioWare’s response to this, the Facebook post last [week], and they are basically out there saying “We hear you, we understand your complaints, we’re looking at some possibilities about what to do, but we want you to know that we hear you.” This just goes to show that even if, behind the scenes, the creators at BioWare are like “Damnit, they didn’t get our story! To address the complaints represent a compromise of our artistic vision.” That sucks, but they’re right. You just have to deal with it.

The similarities between Lost and Mass Effect--there’s another similarity, too. Over the past decade in television, we’ve seen a creative medium come into its own and take some bold leaps forward, but there’s still some room to grow. I think after The Sopranos--or, more specifically, after Twin Peaks--I think a lot of TV storytellers became enamored with this notion that TV writing can be an art and I can be an artist, and I can have my own show and tell my own story and it’s my story, my world, my rules, and I’m going to tell you a story and you’re going to listen to it, and you’re going to follow it, and if I bring you to a certain end that is maybe not necessarily a happy ending or the ending that you want, it’s still my story. It has to be my story if it has any artistic integrity.

The audience push back is “no.” As much as the viewer benefits in this era of artist auteur television, in which the most interesting television is being made by singular creators with singular visions that are just telling their own story, viewers who become fans and who immerse themselves and give themselves over to it and devote so much time to thinking about it and talking about it and dreaming into it, they get a sense of ownership. Their agenda becomes projected onto your agenda. If you’re a writer, if you’re a television network, you benefit from that and you can’t run away from that because they’re keeping you in business. When you get to the end, sometimes what you have is this effect, this clash between shows that the artist, the writer, was creating and the show that the viewer, the fan, thought they were watching. When there’s no sync-up, there’s profound dissatisfaction. For the creators of Lost or the creator of The Sopranos, David Chase, that kind of sticks. At the very least, what you hope for is “Well, okay, you didn’t like my ending, but can you appreciate it? Or can we talk about it?” But, instead, that hopeful conversation gets swallowed up by the vitriol that comes with a more consumer orientation that’s more “I expected one thing and instead you gave me a lemon,” if that makes sense.

When The Sopranos faded to black without absolute resolution, not everyone was happy.
When The Sopranos faded to black without absolute resolution, not everyone was happy.

With video games, it’s interesting because I think video games are on a similar creative trajectory. Video games, the art of video games, has grown by leaps and bounds, I mean, ever since its introduction. The entire history of this medium is defined by radical innovation every other year, it seems. The exhilarating part of watching this industry is watching a medium of entertainment grow and blossom before its eyes, and there’s another aspect to it, too, which is very different from watching any other entertainment medium blossom over the past, you know, 100 years of pop culture, which is...I don’t know if people who were fans of movies or fans of rock music during the golden age of those periods said things like “it’s really cool now, but just wait 10 years from now, because we can all be where it’s going.” Video games are different. The best video games not only are really, really good, but as of right now, they capture your imagination for what they could be 10 to 15 years from now. We have this weird dilemma where we’re exulting what the medium can do, even as we’re bucking up against its limitations here and now. And that brings me to Mass Effect.

The interesting thing about Mass Effect is that it’s on the cutting edge of this whole idea of player choice. There’s a sort of choose your own adventure kind of thing. My dilemma playing Mass Effect is usually, as much as I really appreciate the idea and I understand what they go for and I understand how it affects the story, at the same time, I’m always keenly aware that it never really does what I really want it to do. There’s some kind of creative, artificial intelligence within the game that is constantly changing the game in robust, profound ways in response to your choices, instead of just shunting you to one, two or three other options that don’t feel dramatically different from each other. They’re not choose your own adventure games, it’s choose your own nuance games. It seems like Mass Effect 3 butts up against that, especially with its ending, and also butts up against something else, too, which is...hearing about the controversy about Mass Effect 3, it makes me wonder if the artist creators of the game over at BioWare, how much control over their storytelling do these artists really want to seed to the player?

At the end of the day, one of the exciting storylines that is emerging out of the past 10 years of video games are these creators who see video games as a means of artistic expression, a way of telling a story that expresses ideas that they want to challenge people with, that they want to get people talking to. And the most impactful way to do that is to limit potential interpretations and choices in a story, instead of opening it up open source like and making it everything you want it to be.

It seems to me that these possible endings that Mass Effect 3 gives us at the end of the game are like “Yeah, your choices throughout the game have affected your fate in terms of whether you live or die, they affect, to some degree, your character, but we still want a certain [set] of pre-determined endings that are designed to facilitate the certain point that we have about the world, certain ideas that we want you consider, certain conventions that we want to debunk, and pursuing an artistic agenda like that is tricky when you also want to create a game in which the player, in some ways, is being lead to believe they are the defining artistic decision maker in the game, if that makes sense.

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GB: There’s definitely that rub between the player and the creator. An unintended consequence of BioWare’s player choice model was an end where players felt like they were gonna have more agency over that conclusion. And maybe it's not so much that they had written their own ending in their mind, but they’d made all these decisions along the way. Knowing game development, a lot of this is largely just a function of they have 18 months to produce a thing, so there’s only so many outcomes they can produce in X amount of time, but my large takeaway from all of this is that it’s a positive thing, showing how much players can care about a story.

But you’re right, once you’ve handed over the keys of the kingdom to the player, they also expect certain things. You can fall back to the passive entertainment experience excuse with TV and movies because the interactive part happens on the periphery and the creators can always retreat back to saying “at the end of the day, what matters is what’s canonical in the television series--that’s a passive experience that we’re writing and presenting.” But games aren’t that way. Mass Effect is definitely totally separate from that--it’s not just you shooting from the beginning of the level to the end of the level. You’re choosing which characters live and die, which races live and die, which planets survive and don’t. Once you’ve given people that power, you’ve opened the box, the genie is out of the bottle. Players feel like they should have this unique impact on this world and how it plays out, and it’s what makes the world "entitlement" feel...it doesn’t seem to work as well for the reaction. Entitlement’s a really easy word to apply to it, but in some sense, players should feel entitled when they’ve been told they’re the ones who are entitled to make these decisions.

When they get to an end that isn’t satisfying, an end where BioWare says they want to make a statement, that goes directly contrary to the player and the agency they had during that experience. I imagine, as a developer, that’s really tough, especially as games try to embrace this whole cinematic appeal and trying to take what lessons they can from other mediums. Games are inherently interactive, and when you start to take steps further to involving player in the story, you’re going to have consequences for the player’s emotional reaction when you take that away from them.

Jensen: There’s something that you’re also touching on here that I really like, which is a really good point. Regardless of your story, whatever medium you’re experiencing a story, what do we want from endings is a really big picture topic here. Some of the themes that you talked about at the beginning of our conversation here come into play, things like the video game experience offers you the chance to be a hero, and hero stories are all about taking their fate into their own hands and are able to impose their will on a world. They may succeed, they may fail, a lot of that depends on skill, but they get to impose their will on the world for better or worse. You go into a very long journey in which you are executing this kind of heroic function--you expect the opportunity to save the day. You think that should be an option that’s available to you, and, in this case, that’s not. In that way, a traditional ending, or what we want from an ending to that kind of story, is subverted. In other ways, just in general, what we want from endings is catharsis, especially a series finale.

When BioWare opened the box with players choices, it opened itself to this kind of reaction.
When BioWare opened the box with players choices, it opened itself to this kind of reaction.

Even though my guess is we may not see the Mass Effect the franchise, it seems to me what was being presented to us was that this is the end, this is the last game at least with this character, in a really involving, immersive, creative endeavor. Here, we really do see analogs to things like Lost or The Sopranos, where a fan base that’s large and rabid and loyal and passionate and really, really invested--they’re not only getting what the final game or final episode, the end of a story, they’re getting the door slammed on a huge part of their lives, a significant thing in their lives. To that end, an ending, then, must give you something more. There’s an expectation of something more. There’s something like a massive emotional catharsis. The ending of Lost really tried to go for that, they tried to win on emotion. “This is the end for all of us, my friends, and we’re all going away, in more ways than one. It’s been a long journey--bittersweet, sad, wonderful, joyous.” And they send us out with tears and a surge fo emotion. Lost completely triumphed int hat regard, but in other areas that people were expecting, the more intellectual areas, payoffs of certain storylines that people were invested in and mysteries that they were really invested in, the storytellers never said “We’re not necessarily as interested in that.” For a lot of people, that was a huge part of that entertainment experience, and they didn’t get it. The catharsis was incomplete.

There seems to be a similarity here with Mass Effect 3, with a fan base that has gone through these games and come to the end, and they want the full meal catharsis--they want everything. They want a heroic end, or the possibility of a heroic end. They want an emotional send-off, they want resolution of certain mysteries, and they all want it to be coherent and skillfully done, and all that. It sounds like Mass Effect just didn’t nail that landing.

GB: When I watched the end of Lost, the emotional arc worked perfectly fine. Yes, I was there for the mysteries and that was the fun of the week-to-week nature of that show, but at the end, I got the emotional closure with each of the characters. It’s different from player to player, just as with each viewer of Lost or any other television show. But with Mass Effect, what they brought to the end was, yes, the mysteries were important, and, yes, the resolution of the conflict with the Reapers was important, but it was the player’s agency. People talk about it in terms of the ending, but it was really just about these very binary choices presented in front of you that didn’t seem to reflect the agency that players had brought in throughout this entire adventure. As a result, they didn’t get get closure through their own agency, which was the motivational factor for these three games, which is why they brought their saved games from one game to the next. It’s interesting to see BioWare run into that as they start to contemplate how they address the reaction.

Jensen: I’m reminded of that whole idea of the observer effect, as well as schrodinger's cat. There’s a world of possibilities inside that box, until you get to the end and you get to the action of opening that box, and looking at it, and in that moment, then, all possibilities collapse and one remains, and only that option remains. Ultimately, then, this experience that was defined by the romance of mystery and possibility suddenly now becomes only defined by this one concrete resolution.

I’m reminded that with Lost--this is a show, week after week, captured your imagination and allowed you to dream into it an infinite number of possibilities and they were really good and clever about it. “What is going on? What is going on?” The interesting thing that happened about the end of Lost is that I honestly think the ending of Lost was an attempt by the show runners to actually communicate a specific point that they had, but while retaining, for the viewer, the quality that they identified as the defining characteristic of Lost, which was mystery, which was should the legacy of this show be one in which we’re still debating and still wondering and theorizing and still speculating years afterwards. I think they thought that by not being clear and concrete and definitive on many of the mysteries that people wanted resolved, they felt they were remaining thematically and artistically true to their creative enterprise and the entertainment experience that we had, which was the conversation about it, the debating about it, the comparison of theories about it, the arguing over it. They tried to thread that needle right at the end with an ending about, “how can we give closure and how can we end the story on our terms that is also satisfying to the audience but is true to the greater whole of this show?” Tricky, tricky. Because it makes you aware that you fundamentally usually watch something and endings usually come to us.

When we get an ending to a story or a final chapter of a story or a final shot, you realize that they’re fundamnetally different animals than the entertainment experience that preceeded it as a whole. The entertainment experience that preceeds an ending is all about sustained tension and sustained mystery, and that final thing is just resolution.

Colored endings may have seemed clever on paper, but players did not respond very well.
Colored endings may have seemed clever on paper, but players did not respond very well.

Endings often just can’t win. Most screenwriters will tell you the hardest part of any movie, any story to tell, is just the end. It’s the thing that changes the most, it’s the endings that are the most fought over among collaborators, they’re the things that are just the hardest to land. Some people get it really, really right, some people get it really, really wrong, and some people land anywhere in-between and our attitudes about them can change. The thing about controversial endings, though, is this: five years from now, my friend, we will all say that the ending of Mass Effect 3 was genius! We’ll catch up to it.

I’m not going to say that people feel that way about Lost, but I would say that people feel that way about The Sopranos. Many, many years after the ending of The Sopranos, The Sopranos just ignited a storm of “oh, that was genius! Genius!” “Genius? Are you kidding me? They wimped out! They didn’t have the guts to tell us what they wanted!” Which is the final fate of Tony Soprano. Defenders of that finale said “Yes, they did. Don’t you get it?” and the people who hate it go “Wait, you’re saying that I’m stupid?” And you go into that downward spiral. Years later, the truth of the matter is, the people who hated it then are probably no greater fans of it now, but in the cooling of it all, the cooling of the vitriol, there is some appreciation. There is grudging appreciation in that camp of “I get what he was saying. I get what he was going for.” And, ultimately, what you remember is that “I defined my enjoyment of that series not by that final moment, but by seven, eight seasons of the greatest television show even written.” That’s how we remember The Sopranos. I think that’s how that’s the fans of Lost are going to remember that show. I think that, for better or worse, the final season of that show will be remembered as something of a cautionary tale. I happen to love it. Do I love it as much as the five seasons before? No, but I really respect and like and was moved by what they did. I think, the further we get away from Lost, it will get more defined by the things that it did right and revolutionary versus the issue of audience satisfaction.

I think Mass Effect as a franchise, these three games taken together, I just can’t see how it’s not regarded as anything less than a landmark. There’s so many things to enjoy about these games and this world and the creative accomplishment of this series than just those final moments. When I played those first two games, the narrative arc of it is maybe one of the things I like the least. I love the way it looks, I love the character design, I love these worlds--there’s so much to really enjoy and love about it. Given some time, people will remember all of what they loved about this thing and now the resolution of it all.

Patrick Klepek on Google+

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heat

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@strangematter said:

I find it somewhat ironic that Patrick praised the ending to Lost because of its focus on the characters, when the ending of Mass Effect 3 eschews basically all of the character development you had done over the past five years in favor of a wedged in artistic statement. ME2 got it right-- while the ending was the culmination of that game's story, the device used to conclude that story was firmly centered on your crew. It balanced plot with character in a way that resonated with most of their fanbase. And by its very nature it could be either triumphant or tragic. You can clear the mission with your entire team intact, returning to the Normandy like McArthur to the Philipines, or you can suffer losses, and finish your mission at the expense of the characters you've grown close to for the preceeding 40 hours. And all of that is based on your choices. It works.

There's nothing like that in ME3. All of the character development, all of your emotional attachment to the cast is suddenly superceded by this whole new conflict that you have to make a snap judgment on. It betrays not only a lack of concern for player agency, but a failure on the part of the writer to understand what his game is even about.

Everyone should read this post.

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rockinkemosabe

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Patrick, just admit that all these articles are an excuse to talk about Lost on a video game website!

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BitterAlmond

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@MrKlorox said:

Holy crap, there are WAY too many people in Lost.

After the third season or so, they were really just introducing new characters to have someone to kill off six episodes later. Lost was neat and all, but it jumped the shark.

As for the ending, I thought it was fine. Like Patrick, I only started playing in earnest once everyone was already complaining, and I was playing to see what the fuss was about. I was expecting something as ridiculous and stupid as the ending to Indigo Prophecy (that game was great until the last hour or so). When it just turned out to be "you can't save everyone," I thought that was totally okay.

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solidlife

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This seems like a good article but I cant read as Im into season 5 of the sopranos :( thanks for the spoiler alert!

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tourgen

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Respectfully, I think you both missed the point.

The ending is poorly constructed and executed and that is what most people have a problem with. It's sloppy. The false choice it offers isn't even really a choice because the consequences are not evident or consistent with the universe or story - it feels meaningless. It is meaningless. As a result it has no emotional impact. The starchild's dialog is mostly just random babble that's logically inconsistent with itself and the story.

It's not dark and emotional, it's just dumb.

The ending would have been better with a fade to black - credits as soon as you hit the white platform on Earth. Maybe show a shot of reapers harvesting earth after the credits. The galaxy tried and failed. How's that for dark?

EDIT: just to be clear I don't want or need a new ending. I don't feel entitled to a new ending. I just feel embarrassed for the creative team that created this ending.

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Death_Unicorn

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@pyrodactyl: Exactly this. Most people aren't mad because we didn't feel like knights in shining armor. That's not it at all. The ending is plain bad, which is why, it it needs that DLC context pack for it to be any type of good.

As Roger Ebert said, "If you have to ask what something symbolized, it didn't."

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TheHumanDove

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@tourgen said:

Respectfully, I think you both missed the point.

The ending is poorly constructed and executed and that is what most people have a problem with. It's sloppy. The false choice it offers isn't even really a choice because the consequences are not evident or consistent with the universe or story - it feels meaningless. It is meaningless. As a result it has no emotional impact. The starchild's dialog is mostly just random babble that's logically inconsistent with itself and the story.

It's not dark and emotional, it's just dumb.

The ending would have been better with a fade to black - credits as soon as you hit the white platform on Earth. Maybe show a shot of reapers harvesting earth after the credits. The galaxy tried and failed. How's that for dark?

Boom goes the dynamite. This

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Shaanyboi

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Patrick, not that I'm one to defend this stupid petition or anything, but I think you're completely missing the point of why people are complaining. Well, not COMPLETELY. You do point out there was a lack of player choice to decide these endings.

But there are just so many goddamn inconsistencies.

-It ends on the very definition of a deus ex machina. Some completely random entity shows up and offers a solution. Nothing prior really mattered at all other than how much of your meter you filled, because that defines whether or not you get access to two of the three solutions presented. Why? Fuck if I know.

-The Mass Relays get destroyed, but in the Arrival DLC, it was explained that destroying a Mass Relay would COMPLETELY FUCK UP A SYSTEM. In essence, no matter what you choose, Shephard probably killed a LOT more people by blowing up the relays than the Reapers would've by just harvesting the advanced species.

-With all the relays destroyed... aren't the Krogans, Turians, Quarians, and all these other races completely stuck on Earth?

-How the fuck did Joker start getting chased by this massive explosion? Wasn't he fighting the Reapers in orbit? Or even just ON Earth? So did every other ship get completely fucked and Joker was the only one to fly away? And why are your squad members getting off the Normandy when they were with you in that final assault? Some of whom probably got blown up by Harbinger?

As much as I feel that it's probably people grasping for straws in some way, this whole Indoctrination Theory going around KINDA starting to make sense. But even then, the ending is still kinda fucked, because if Shephard wakes up at the end, then isn't the invasion still happening?

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I'm seriously torn about whether or not Bioware should redo the ending of ME3 because I'm on the whole a believer that you create a piece of art, and then it's done. George Lucas is instantly taking his beloved classics and tweaking them, and that's a real bad thing. Good or bad, a work should probably just remain what it is when it's done. That being said, ranting and raving about your $60 purchase being a disappointment is completely justified. At least in the movie industry, movies that are bad get panned. Games journalism is much less critical, and fans are therefore bringing their grievances to the creators themselves. If people are unhappy, they should be able to complain, regardless of whether others find these people to be "whiny" or "entitled." If you bought the game, you've also got an unlimited liscense to complain. Whether anyone listens is up to them.

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CrossTheAtlantic

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@IBurningStar said:

@2HeadedNinja said:
A lot of people play these games to be the good guy that accomplishes everything, and video game endings, as a whole, the trope is that you’re the hero that’s unbeatable and everything turns out alright in the end. They went for something a little more mixed: things are out of your control. Bad things are going to happen no matter what you do, what choice you make. People have some real trouble processing that. Some wanted this “you saved the princess” ending that games have always have. Personally, as a player, it’s really important that they’re having this reaction. You don’t see that very often with a video game.

I'm sorry, but I stopped reading there ... with all due respect Patrick, that is not at all the point ... that the ending is not unicorns and ice cream is NOT why people are upset. If, after all the controversy, you did not understand that you should probably stay away from writing about the subject.

I nearly stopped reading there too. Why do people keep on insisting that the lack of a happy ending is the reason people are unsatisfied? We are totally cool with having a bitter sweet or downer ending. I know A LOT of people that love the piss out of the ending to Metal Gear Solid 3. It is actually my favorite game ending of all time. That ending is depressing as hell and people love it! This article had some good parts, but there was a lot of stuff that seemed way off base. I'm also starting to understand why some people aren't very fond of Patrick.

God that ending was so good. Felt so gutted when Big Boss had to do that bullshit photo op and handshake with all the guys who fucked over the Boss. I know that series is batshit crazy, but man do I love it so.

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@tourgen said:

Respectfully, I think you both missed the point.

The ending is poorly constructed and executed and that is what most people have a problem with. It's sloppy. The false choice it offers isn't even really a choice because the consequences are not evident or consistent with the universe or story - it feels meaningless. It is meaningless. As a result it has no emotional impact. The starchild's dialog is mostly just random babble that's logically inconsistent with itself and the story.

It's not dark and emotional, it's just dumb.

The ending would have been better with a fade to black - credits as soon as you hit the white platform on Earth. Maybe show a shot of reapers harvesting earth after the credits. The galaxy tried and failed. How's that for dark?

EDIT: just to be clear I don't want or need a new ending. I don't feel entitled to a new ending. I just feel embarrassed for the creative team that created this ending.

@strangematter said:

I find it somewhat ironic that Patrick praised the ending to Lost because of its focus on the characters, when the ending of Mass Effect 3 eschews basically all of the character development you had done over the past five years in favor of a wedged in artistic statement. ME2 got it right-- while the ending was the culmination of that game's story, the device used to conclude that story was firmly centered on your crew. It balanced plot with character in a way that resonated with most of their fanbase. And by its very nature it could be either triumphant or tragic. You can clear the mission with your entire team intact, returning to the Normandy like McArthur to the Philipines, or you can suffer losses, and finish your mission at the expense of the characters you've grown close to for the preceeding 40 hours. And all of that is based on your choices. It works.

There's nothing like that in ME3. All of the character development, all of your emotional attachment to the cast is suddenly superceded by this whole new conflict that you have to make a snap judgment on. It betrays not only a lack of concern for player agency, but a failure on the part of the writer to understand what his game is even about.

Boom. I have nothing else to add.

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Arker101

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There are so many posts explaining why the ending's poorly written and poorly handled, please read them if you think the real problem is not having a happy ending or gaming entitlement.

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@mutha3 said:

@WrenchNinja:

I'll never understand the weird obsession a certain portion of the ME fanbase has with the reapers.

Like....they're not that interesting, guys. They're pretty generic villains, oversized cuddlefish. Spooky. No one played Mass Effect for the reapers.

Maybe, but leading into this game the Reapers were effective antagonists in that they had been established as an insurmountable obstacle. There is no better way at stacking the deck than presenting the enemy as infallible. The Reapers as an entity didn't really need fleshing out further, they were perfectly established through Sovereigns brilliant cameo in the first game. That brief conversation set in motion their utter otherness against the rest of the universe, they didn't care about anything else. Up until that point everything seemed to have a rationale behind it, they didn't have one beyond destroying everything. It instilled a great sense of creeping dread behind everything that followed, something which I haven't experienced in a game since the first half of Final Fantasy X with Sin.

But Saren is still the best ME villain without question.

And on the issue of entitlement. I'm fine if the ending stays as it is, but regardless, it'll be a testamaent to just how badly they fumbled the story at the final hurdle. Whether or not its altered doesn't really come into the equation with a lot of people, they are (understandably) irritated about the fact that the tone veered so drastically for that closing 10 minutes of the finale. I was under the assumption when I was playing the game that it would end on a sombre note, but it do that through the use of a deus-ex machina just robbed it of a fitting pay-off. I'm not so much annoyed at the implications of the ending (although I don't agree with all of them), its more how the ending suddenly invokes them.

I do think the comparisons to similar endings is interesting, although they just highlight how undeserved ME3's was. I never liked The Soprano's end, but I at least respected it.

Sorry for probably reaffirming what many across the internet have said before me, but you know, entitlement!

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@CrossTheAtlantic said:

@IBurningStar said:

@2HeadedNinja said:
A lot of people play these games to be the good guy that accomplishes everything, and video game endings, as a whole, the trope is that you’re the hero that’s unbeatable and everything turns out alright in the end. They went for something a little more mixed: things are out of your control. Bad things are going to happen no matter what you do, what choice you make. People have some real trouble processing that. Some wanted this “you saved the princess” ending that games have always have. Personally, as a player, it’s really important that they’re having this reaction. You don’t see that very often with a video game.

I'm sorry, but I stopped reading there ... with all due respect Patrick, that is not at all the point ... that the ending is not unicorns and ice cream is NOT why people are upset. If, after all the controversy, you did not understand that you should probably stay away from writing about the subject.

I nearly stopped reading there too. Why do people keep on insisting that the lack of a happy ending is the reason people are unsatisfied? We are totally cool with having a bitter sweet or downer ending. I know A LOT of people that love the piss out of the ending to Metal Gear Solid 3. It is actually my favorite game ending of all time. That ending is depressing as hell and people love it! This article had some good parts, but there was a lot of stuff that seemed way off base. I'm also starting to understand why some people aren't very fond of Patrick.

God that ending was so good. Felt so gutted when Big Boss had to do that bullshit photo op and handshake with all the guys who fucked over the Boss. I know that series is batshit crazy, but man do I love it so.

Yes, exactly. That is the shining example of how to do a downer ending. It's A: Well execute and hits the emotional notes they were going for and B: thematically in place with the rest of the game. Two things I wish I could say about ME3's ending.

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pyrodactyl

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I really hope someone at GB will look at the comments here

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Speaking as someone who hasn't played ME3 yet, this article seems pretty on-point. BioWare should have anticipated the player's need to see their impact on the ending, and from what I've heard about the arbitrary choice it sounds like they didn't provide the breadth that was necessary.

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@XNaphryz said:

@PJ said:

If you could have just pushed a Reaper self-destruct button at the end and everyone comes out alive and well would belittle a lot of the games story.

This isn't the sort of ending a lot of people are clamoring for at all. Again, its not about people surviving or getting a happier ending. Most of the comments in the thread are aligned with that.

That's not really the point I'm trying to make. What I'm saying is that the end is pretty much the best outcome you could have had in the situation your in. And yes, that's the type of ending a lot of the people are clamoring for who don't like the ending. Not all, but most. Most feel that their choices didn't affect the ending, that no mater what they did, the end will be pretty much the same. That's the biggest complaint I heard and seen.

You can't give players more choice and different endings ranging from complete destruction to everything's fine again. They had to make an ending that would solve the situation in a way that doesn't conflict with the state of the universe or the story.

Your not supposed to have complete closure after the ending, that almost never works. In ME3, you abolish the threat by pretty much resetting the galaxy to a state before the Mass Relays. What happens after that is not important to Shepards story or the story the games are telling. And with an ending like that you can't go back and explain what happened to the other characters for complete closure on them.

Since the story is what I cared for the most in the games here's what I took away from a couple of points people are complaining about.

The Reapers.

The Reapers were created to stop races from growing to strong and inevetably completely destroying the galaxy. It's a common thing in apocalyptic stories that Humans grow to much and too advanced and end up destroyed the planet. The Reapers are made to prevent that from happening to the galaxy.

People saying that the explination for the Reapers is stupid. Synthetics created to destroy organics to save them from synthetics. The Reapers are created to prevent organics from creating synthetics that can destroy the galaxy. That's why there's a 50.000 year cycle, that's their calculated time for organics to become that advanced. And the game also puts forth the notion that it's false logic used by the creators of the Reapers since the Geth have proven to be a peaceful race of synthetics.

The AI at the end and why it gives those choices.

Since Shepard had pretty much defeated the Reapers plan at the end of the game, the AI running the Reapers felt that it had to come up with some solutions to prevent the total destruction of the galaxy since the war is spiraling out of control. Sarens way(Green), The Ilusive Mans way(Blue) or the destruction of the Reapers and AI(Red).

People are complaining that the red choice should have only destroyed the reapers and not all AI since it should just send out a signal that just for the Reapers since it's been established that the Reapers and other AI use different types of signals. This I explained previously that it's just a Reaper self-destruct button that would belittle the story. It has to be a choice with pros and cons.

That the AI at the end is represented as a kid doesn't bother me. It's just the AI choosing a form familiar to Shepard to make it easier on him. That's what I took away from it.

I haven't been reading all the complaints out there but if you have some other big points then bring them up and we can discuss. I'm not saying the ending is flawless, I'm just saying that I don't have a problem with the ending and felt that it gave me the closure I needed for Shepards story.

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@BrockNRolla said:

I'm seriously torn about whether or not Bioware should redo the ending of ME3 because I'm on the whole a believer that you create a piece of art, and then it's done. George Lucas is instantly taking his beloved classics and tweaking them, and that's a real bad thing.

On the other hand, if George Lucas decided to call a mulligan on the prequels and have actual competent writers and directors make them, I'd be pretty pleased. If failed art-- especially failed commercial art that millions of people have an emotional and financial investment in-- can be repaired, then it should be. The problem is that for most mediums there's no practical way to do that. It's one of the unique advantages that video games as a medium have.

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Lord_Punch

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@PJ: "Since Shepard had pretty much defeated the Reapers plan at the end of the game..."

Explain this.

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The Reaper's ultimate motive was that because Organic lifeforms, once sufficiently advanced, would always build Synthetics who would then rebel and kill all Organics, the Reapers came to the galaxy every 50,000 years to destroy all Organic life, possibly with the aid of the Synthetics in the galaxy.

The Reapers are a race of sentient machines who destroy all organics in order to save them from being destroyed by sentient machines.

The Illusive Man was convinced that he could use the Catalyst to control the Reapers, and use them to make humanity more powerful. Everyone else in the galaxy believed that the only way to stop the Reapers was to destroy them. Eventually it is revealed that The Illusive Man was himself indoctrinated by the Reapers, and so was unwittingly working for them. But when Shepard reaches the Cataclyst, he finds out that it is possible to use the Catalyst to control the Reapers.

The Reapers took control of one of their greatest enemies in the Galaxy and manipulated him into defeating them.

I don't care if there isn't a happy ending, or that Shepard dies. I love that they tried to go for a crazy twist ending, but they left it too late and threw everything at you in literally the last minute of the game, and none of the motivations behind it or the choices presented make any sense. The whole ending is paper thin and that's why it's bad.

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@Xeteh said:

Most people aren't pissed about the fact that Shepard doesn't ride off in to the sunset, most are pissed (as mentioned) about the lack of closure. The story of Mass Effect has you interacting and caring about so many different characters and the game ends without touching on any of them. You don't know what happened and you don't really understand what did. For instance the Arrival DLC has you destroying a mass relay which results in an entire system being destroyed... why is it that when the relays are destroyed at the end the same thing doesn't happen?

For all we know the Mass Relays didn't explode or were destroyed in the way it was destroyed in The Arrival. They could have self-destruct in a way that made them useless and unable to be salvaged.

As Shepard, should we know what happened? If he/she doesn't know what happened? If he/she wasn't there to experience it? In ME2, we don't know what happened to former crew members or acquaintances until Shepard finds them again himself/herself. It's the same deal with the gap between ME2 and ME3. We don't know what happens, because Shepard isn't there to experience it. We find out when see them again. The most closure we get, is speaking with all the living current and former crew members before the final attack.

So it kind of makes sense to show very vague details of what happened after using the Catalyst and not tell what happens to everyone.

@WrenchNinja said:

Shepard's cycle is different. The Reapers could not immediately control the citadel and thus gave the races a chance to prepare. We are shown that they are quite fallible, not indestructible or unbeatable, with Sovereign being destroyed by only a portion of the alliance fleet, a destroyer being defeated by a thresher maw and an orbital strike. Uniting the races would have been a clear possibility for victory as this has never happened and it should have been option to tackle the reaper threat. Of course instead we have space magic.

They did tackle the Reaper threat. Shepard gathered and united as many races he could muster and it still wouldn't be enough. Throughout the game and the series it shows that even through combined effort, it will take a miracle to beat the Reapers. What makes Shepard's cycle different is that they are able to unite whereas the Protheans dominated and subjugated other races that did not submit to their rule. The races working together is a clear sign that the Reaper solution is no longer a viable solution. The reason Reapers destroyed organics is because organics eventually dominate and destroy other organics (Prothean cycle) or they are destroyed by their own synthetics (could be disproven or proven by uniting or destroying either the Geth and the Quarians).

The solution then becomes one of three options with the Catalyst almost wanting Shepard to pick synthesis. Control gives Shepard too much power, becoming a Reaper himself. Absolute power can corrupt anyone. The cycle could eventually continue. Destruction makes Shepard no better than the Reapers themselves. Choosing to wipeout synthetic life just to preserve organic life which could lead to a new cycle starting.

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I really think that this article represents the tone that all sides of this debate should be striving to emulate. Well done, Patrick.

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@GeneralGrey: The tone, but not the content.

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Clonedzero

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lol patrick had this whole thing done when he doesnt even understand why people are angry over it.

jesus christ, what do they pay him for?

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@mrpandaman said:

For all we know the Mass Relays didn't explode or were destroyed in the way it was destroyed in The Arrival. They could have self-destruct in a way that made them useless and unable to be salvaged.

As Shepard, should we know what happened? If he/she doesn't know what happened? If he/she wasn't there to experience it? In ME2, we don't know what happened to former crew members or acquaintances until Shepard finds them again himself/herself. It's the same deal with the gap between ME2 and ME3. We don't know what happens, because Shepard isn't there to experience it. We find out when see them again. The most closure we get, is speaking with all the living current and former crew members before the final attack.

So it kind of makes sense to show very vague details of what happened after using the Catalyst and not tell what happens to everyone.

It seems weird that the Citadel (or Crucible, and if its the Crucible then why did the Reapers allow such plans to exist) would have some type of mechanism to just destroy the relays at a push of a button... especially after for the how much the events of Arrival are referenced.

The difference is that there was going to be a follow-up to the first game whereas this one is supposed to be the end of the story, there isn't supposed to be anything after it so you'd assume we'd get some closure. Nor do I see the fact that Shepard isn't there to experience it as relevant, if it was then why do we see the Normandy crash or the Stargazer? That is assuming those scenes aren't real, I suppose.

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Distrato

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I'm going to repost this video someone else posted because YES!

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The essence of our displeasure with the ending isn't that it wasn't all rainbows and lolipops. The Mass Effect series has always felt like a epic and grand symphony, each movement building to a beautiful crescendo that, in the end, didn't happen. The end of ME3 was the conductor cutting the symphony off 5 minutes before the end, shitting himself, and the lights go out.

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Very interesting read. I didn't agree with everything said but I found a lot of the points to be interesting.

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not that this helps but on the subject of why the reapers destroyed all organic life.

didn't the "starchild" at the end of ME3 say the reapers only killed all organic life of a certain level of tech so that they wouldn't control other ORGANIC life? like how we now pretty much control the world population of cows and chickens and other live stock for our own end? think of that on a galactic scale. we would in a sense be altering forever other ceatures evolutionary possibilities.

i dunno i've only finishes the game once and probably wont try to get the other 2 endings since i already know what happens because of all the hoopla.

p.s. i didn't mind the ending other then the screen at the end telling me to look out for further adventures in DLC

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Is Patrick really assuming everyone wants a happy ending? I thought that was just the hardest of hardcore Bioware fans -- the ones who wish they could marry Garrus in real life and goofy stuff like that.

I want a quality ending. The Illusive Man's dialogue on Thessia and in the Crucible was atrocious; nay, so was Shepard's and Anderson's. Cringe-worthy lines, that I did indeed cringe at and wish I could have paused just to shake my head in embarrassment. Nevertheless, Martin Sheen always shines with his delivery.

And don't get me started on the god child. He is a storytelling nightmare -- a literal AND figurative deus ex machina designed to explain everything at the last possible minute, taking the entire Reaper threat and completely dispelling the enigma while attempting to drop that threat into a body, a character that's onscreen only so long as the player is still confused as hell. It's the work of a novice. Then POOF, gone, and suddenly even more plot holes appear left and right as Shepard chooses his favorite color.

It wasn't a good ending. By "good," I'm referring to contemporary standards of narrative quality in media, and standards of narrative quality among Bioware's own works.

Should they fix it? Hell no. They live with their mistakes, and they learn that people demand better of the studio responsible for Baldur's Gate and those first two Mass Effect games. Screwing up an ending is nowhere near as bad as apologizing for somebody else's mistakes.

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Is the media this stupid to continually say that BioWare is going to cave into pressure from the fans? Really. Open your fucking eyes and look at the proof, Shepard is INDOCTRINATED AFTER BEING SHOT BY HARBINGER.

  • Firstly, turn around during the slow crawl to the conduit. The trees that you see in his/her dreams are behind you now.
  • Secondly look at the eyes during the Control and Synthesis endings. There's an outer and inner circle with the outer circle having 3 circles at the 12, 4, and 8 o'clock locations. These are the eyes of an indoctrinated servant. Saren had them. The husks have them. The Illusive Man has them. Destroy doesn't have the eyes though because the "Paragon" choice is actually deceptive and the Renegade choice is really the Paragon choice.
  • Thirdly the area of the Citadel that you're on has elements from other areas in Shepard's memory, including the Shadow Broker's ship. Reapers use memories to influence their victims.
  • Fourthly when Shepard shoots Anderson he shoots him in the stomach. Shepard was shot ONCE on his way to the conduit by a Marauder in the shoulder. Not the stomach. When Anderson dies Shepard has a bullet hole in his stomach, exactly where Anderson was shot. Anderson in the last bit of the game symbolizes Shepard's will fighting against the indoctrination, the Illusive Man symbolizes the Reaper's trying to take control by using false hope and lies.

The entire thing was planned from the start, just like Javik was held back from the main game. It's EA and their DLC policy, "Squeeze every cent out of the consumer and fuck them over in the process." How people can be so blind baffles me. If they change the ending with DLC it won't be because fans bitched, it'll be because they don't give a fuck about their fans in the first place. End of story and case fucking closed. I'm done even reading things about this.

Enjoy the real ending when you play it, because all you are is part of the problem. We're going to get to the point where they'll sell a game at retail but make you pay for the individual levels already on the disc to unlock them, and the only one's to blame are ourselves. Again, give these pricks and inch and they try take the whole fucking universe.

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The other issue that needs addressed is the idea that organics and synthetics absolutely cannot coexist, and must either merge their forms or destroy each other. In Mass Effect 1, the Geth were the most dangerous force in the galaxy and AI's were outlawed. In ME2, you gain both an AI and a Geth companion, who's stories both explore the idea that organics and synthetics can coexist and cooperate. In Mass Effect 3, you can not only broker peace between the Geth and the Quarians, and have the Geth assist you in defeating the Reapers and defending all existence in the galaxy, but you can straight up encourage your friend to screw a robot lady. Until that final moment in Mass Effect 3, things between organics and synthetics were looking pretty swell. But then suddenly the Starchild was telling me that organics and synthetics could never tolerate each other, and that the only solution was to either destroy, dominate or synthesize. All those themes and recurring meanings that Bioware had (in hindsight, probably completely by accident) created throughout the trilogy were contradicted in, again, literally the last minute of the game.

Again, I don't care that we didn't get a happily ever after or Animal House ending where everyone lived and had a big party on Endor with all the Ewoks and ghosts of dead Jedi. I like that they tried to make a more meaningful and permanent ending to the universe, but none of this shit made sense.

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@mrpandaman:

If we're only taking what we literally see in the game into account, then we HAVE to think that destroying the Mass Relays will destroy whatever solar system they're in, because the only time we have ever seen them blow-up, that's what happened. Hell, Shepard was the one who blew it up, and yet she doesn't stop to ask that question of the space kid.

In addition to being thematically inconsistent, it is also badly written. It's broken in fundamental ways that should be addressed, not praised.

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@nERVEcenter: i find it disgusting that patrick has written tons of articles about people being pissed at the endings and he's done NO research on WHY people are pissed about it. i mean holy shit, i thought he was a journalist. he could spend 5 minutes on a forum and have all the MASSIVE plotholes and inconsistencies pointed out to him. but nope, he'd rather talk about LOST and shit.

god dammit.

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@WrenchNinja said:

@PJ said:

The Reapers have been written up as such a huge force that for hundreds of thousends of years not a single being has ever defeated them. Their force is so overpowering that you soon realize that you have to make a huge sacrifice to beat them. If it were any easier then the Reapers would have died a long time ago.

The Reapers have only ever achieved anything during the Reaper cycle because they surprised every species till Shepard's cycle. The Keepers signal the Reapers and then the Reapers wipe everyone out in the citadel. They now have control of every mass relay in the galaxy and can turn them off and on at any time. They now have population and census data on the entire galaxy. They can now systematically wipe out organic races system by system without them having to face any kind of real counter attack.

Shepard's cycle is different. The Reapers could not immediately control the citadel and thus gave the races a chance to prepare. We are shown that they are quite fallible, not indestructible or unbeatable, with Sovereign being destroyed by only a portion of the alliance fleet, a destroyer being defeated by a thresher maw and an orbital strike. Uniting the races would have been a clear possibility for victory as this has never happened and it should have been option to tackle the reaper threat. Of course instead we have space magic.

The Prothean knew about the Reaper threat long before they came. That's why they enslaved other species to build up a strong force able to fight them. They lasted 100 years.

And the races during Shepards cycle didn't prepare. No one belived Shepard that the Reapers were coming. After the first game the Council just said that Saren was behind the attack on the citadel and didn't listen to Shepard that the Reapers are coming. And the events of the second game are focused on the Collectors who only attack human colonies so the other Races aren't all that bothered. Not until the third game when the Reapers actually attack do they start taking the threat seriously.

And the fleet at the end of Mass Effect that defeated Soveraign was a huge fleet composed of many races and the flagships of the humans, turian and Asari. That was one Reaper with no attackships for support. In the third game, there are millions spread around the galaxy.

Thresher maw was several times bigger then a Reaper and could attack it from below. Again, that was ONE Reaper.

The orbital strike that defeated the Reaper was comprised of the Quarian fleet and the Normandy. It took four direct hits to it's weak point. One Reaper.

And Garrus said during the game that the Reapers are using their own(turian) tactics against them, overwhelming force.

And it's clearly shown in the game that force to force, the Reapers are clearly superior. Their only option for victory is shutting them down/destroying them with the Crucible. And space magic is a HUGE part of Mass Effect. The relays, biotics, engines, guns, element zero, well everything is based on space magic. If you thought Mass Effect is some kind of realistic sci-fi then you have been playing a completely different game from me.

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wsowen02

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Edited By wsowen02

I don't feel entitled to a new ending, if BioWare is so committed to this ending, let them have it.

But Mass Effect will forever go down as that series that was on its way to being one of gaming's greatest, until they shit the bed in the last 10 minutes.

And you can't blame that on the fans.

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pyrodactyl

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@Distrato: I think you meant to do that

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EndrzGame

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The "analysis" that an ambiguous ending leaves more room for player speculation, while sounding very pretty, completely refutes the "artistic integrity" argument that is made in the same breath. Ambiguity is not art. It is the absence of art.

Art is defined as anything which conveys a message from the artist to the audience through some medium. Ambiguity is the lack of a message. It is a formless copout. The literary equivalent of the antichrist. Would you buy a blank, white canvas that someone told you was "a painting from Picasso's 'Ambiguous' Period"? No. Because that is stupid at best and incredibly lazy at worst. You can't have your cake and eat it too.Pick an argument and use your thinky thing to support that argument.

Also, it's unbelievable that all these gaming journalists keep on telling me how great the ending is, when I just don't see it.

It is a weak ending. It simply is. It doesn't stand up to logic, reason, it goes against the flow of the narrative...

Still they argue as if it is such a creative and intelligent ending... cut the crap, you so called journalists.

If you think Bioware should stick to it's ending and give their fans the finger, because you don't ever want fans to be able to influence the ending of any game (even though corporations, focus groups and the like already influence it), just stick to that.

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Clonedzero

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@PJ: well sci-fi series in general have to have suspension of disbelief. theres a HUGE difference between something that is explained in context with the universe the game takes place in, and random mystical unexplained nonsense.

the brilliance of the mass effect universe is pretty much everything revolved around you simply accepting how element zero worked. how you could artificially alter somethings mass by running an electric current through element zero. HENCE THE NAME OF THE FRANCHISE. biotics, mass relays, FTL travel, even how the guns work. all revolve around this single core concept. hell alot of it even makes sense, if there WAS an element that could artificially alter mass alot of that could be possible.

when you have magical devices that can do all this random crap with absolutely no explanation or reason behind it in an existing universe and franchise that has done its hardest to provide detailed reasons why everything works (the excellent codex?) it is terrible.

i mean, its widely considered extremely bad writing for there to be a deus ex machina. ME3 did it LITERALLY. "deus ex machina" means "god out of the machine" in latin. there literally a random machine god who pops up out of NO WHERE 5 minutes before the ending. how can ANYONE defend that?

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pingolobo

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Edited By pingolobo

@Clonedzero:

Amen. brother. Shit. The whole interview kept dealing with the entitlement of the artist vs the entitlement of the consumer. That has nothing to do with the controversy. ARTIST VS CONSUMER IS NOT THE PROBLEM.

Is David Jaffe an asshole because there is an online pass to Twisted Metal? HELL NO!

He is the artist but he was against the online pass. The artist and the consumer are notenemies here.

I won't waste more forum spaces. go to any forum or youtube and look at what is really the problem.

here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MlatxLP-xs&feature=my_liked_videos&list=LLE9JnC-BjPZ4yPgkVm8Xpkw

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freewilly5

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Edited By freewilly5

The reason the ending was bad is that there was only one. After all the choices I made there were virtually no differences in the three endings I could have gotten.

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senor_delicious

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Edited By senor_delicious

there's no "winning" up in this Mass Effect action : )

Space Opera has always come off contrived and over-dramatic (and often strait up dumb in spots),

but that's part of what makes it so much fun. There are definitely some shitty bits of game mechanics

in ME3 like the new mining, multiplayer and quest systems, that much is for certain, though i haven't heard that

topic come up much.

Is it really that surprising that the ending didn't satisfy? I remember fighting a T-1000 made of human slurry at the end of ME2

and granted, it was bitchin... but it was also dumb as shit.

The real issue here is; Why do i hate child-space-gods, but love Star Trek ??
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BoOzak

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Edited By BoOzak

My biggest problem with the ending isnt the lack of choice or closure it's the big gaping plot-holes!

Yes a resolution that incorporated everything i've done up to that point would've been nice, but I would've settled for anything that didnt rape the canon and make absolutely no sense.

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fishinwithguns

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I read this spoiler-filled conversation, so my comment could potentially also contain spoilers, but I have no idea because I'm not a Mass Effect fan. Just a friendly warning.

Although I hate the Mass Effect series (believe me, I've tried, hard, to get into it), and I hate the fact that I have to hear about other people complaining about this shit constantly, even outside my circle of gaming friends, I did enjoy reading that. I mean I didn't read it all, but now that I know why fans are bitching, it makes me respect BioWare more. Even from the small amount of time I spent playing Mass Effect 3, and the rest of the series, I got the feeling that they are trying to tell me something with this story. I mean, me, from the very fucking start...of a series I know almost nothing about, knew that they were trying to show me that bad shit is going to happen no matter what. At a certain point, it's out of your hands. Even if that flies directly in the face of what the fans expect, that's pretty cool, I have to admit, and even cooler that with the ending they seem to have stuck with that theme or overall message. Maybe me viewing this from the perspective of an outsider who has really no emotional investment in the story was beneficial to actually seeing what they were trying to say (before the title card even shows up), but this is before any real gameplay and I knew that I wasn't somehow being "punished" for my dialogue choices.

Even if the fans are always right, you know what, screw 'em. I like that he brought up Twin Peaks, because that was only a two-season run, but a lot of people were so emotionally invested that by the second half of the season they were appalled by many of the creative choices. Even though I loved the series even after it "jumped the shark," it ended up being killed probably by its poor time slot which it earned probably because one of its co-creators decided that they "owed it to the fans" to reveal a key piece of information which David Lynch never intended to reveal, and again this was revealed halfway during only its second season. Even though I remained loyal to the series throughout, and I liked where it was headed, it would be cooler probably if we ended up with at least a third season. Because its cancellation led to a few things which just frustrate me to no end even today: one being that, among tons of unanswered questions from the second season, the series ended with one of the coolest, darkest, least expected cliffhangers I've ever seen, and it will NEVER BE RESOLVED. Part of the fun of anything David Lynch-related is not knowing anything for certain. But the fact remains that this ending was meant to be resolved at some point, it wasn't a series finale (intentionally at least).

I wanted more. So much more. At this point, I was insatiable, though. And you know what, I did get more...in the form of a movie that was supposed to resolve a lot of the unanswered questions from the series, yet remains today probably the only David Lynch movie I can't stand. I had multiple complaints, like everyone else: first, it just didn't feel like the series. It wasn't on TV, so they had more artistic license, which is fine, but not many of the series' best characters returned. And when they did, it was very brief and they seemed completely different from their TV counterparts, not displaying any characteristics which made fans grow to love them. I mean, most of this was due probably more to the fact that most of the actors themselves hated the direction the series took, and others didn't want to be typecast. Also, it just made no fucking sense...and I'm speaking as someone who often likes movies because they make no fucking sense. I like being mystified, and having just a vague picture of the puzzle. Most people want all the pieces and want to know where they go. I guess the movie was lacking in my eyes due to my own sense of fan entitlement, which I usually make fun of people for displaying. It was the fact that I had those two seasons of awesomeness which caused me to form expectations. Almost every other David Lynch movie, going in, you can really only expect one thing...it's going to be fucking weird, creepy, and sometimes maybe even funny but most likely in a very disturbing way. But, screw what I think. Yeah, even for the conclusion of a series most beloved by me, I'm not one to say "this is how it should have ended." It's fine, and really involuntary, for fans to build expectations, but I like two things about the Twin Peaks movie: it didn't seem to feel beholden to the fans and didn't make compromises based on them and their expectations (the compromises were made more because of the actors' wants and expectations, actually, but still, they were instrumental in creating the series at least), and two...it's a David Lynch movie. I hate it, but it's at least another glimpse into this man's fucked-up head. I also like the fact that it torments over-analyzing viewers by explaining things in great detail only up to a certain point, so they feel like "yeah, I'm finally understanding everything" and then it just puts in something without explanation that totally throws them off (the "blue flower" for example)

Moreso than any other medium, it feels like fans of videogame series seem to know exactly how their favorite franchises should play out. Actually, just last night, a GameStop employee was explaining to me in great detail how he wanted Assassin's Creed III. He had details like how he wanted it to be in Victorian England, what historical characters he wanted to see, and even details like the characters name. He wanted him to be named "Jack," and I gotta admit, his reasoning for even this minor detail made a lot of sense. His whole "pitch" was actually pretty good to the point where I half-jokingly said "can I use that?" He had obviously put a lot of thought into it, and the idea even sounded cool...like a game I'd want to play. But he didn't create this scenario because he dislikes the current one, and he admitted he's excited to play AC3 when it comes out, because honestly, there's no way Ubisoft could have read his mind and put all those ideas into play, and even so, where would he be then? Suing them for stealing his ideas? Or would he be so glad that they hit every plot point exactly how he wanted?

In conclusion, on a sort of related note, I love Nolan's Batman films. I can't wait to see the next one. But I'm telling you now, Bruce Wayne will die. How do I know? Well, I don't. I just think it's the only thing that makes sense to end this trilogy. Will fans be upset? Yes. Will I be upset if Nolan doesn't end up killing off Bruce Wayne? Probably not. I have theories on what will happen in the movie, and how Bane and Selena Kyle gets involved, what happened to the Joker, etc. But, y'know, it's not my story. I'm not as creative as Nolan and his team. I don't care if I'm wrong about everything. If I hate the next movie, it won't be because my "predictions" and "expectations" were wrong, it will be for some other reason...something that would make the movie totally suck, and for that I have no predictions thus far.

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pyrodactyl

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@senor_delicious: you would think that since the rest of the story in ME3 is amazing and everyone said T-1000 was shit they would have learned to not fuck up the part that people remember the most.

But no...

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strangematter

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Edited By strangematter

@senor_delicious said:

Is it really that surprising that the ending didn't satisfy? I remember fighting a T-1000 made of human slurry at the end of ME2

While the execution was janky, the ending still satisfied. The suicide mission was wonderfully executed and at the end I got to blow up the Reaper Base as advertised, AND I got the reward of seeing the Collector General get hung out to dry. The point is that since the rest of the ending was well conceived, I was able to forgive a somewhat silly (Hudson would say "too video-gamey") endboss, because a.) it fit into the atmosphere of the game, b.) expanded the narrative in a sensible way and c.) served as an acceptable climax to the last mission. Added to that, Bioware added enough of a denouement afterwards that I felt suitably rewarded for completing the game.

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csl316

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Edited By csl316

Wow, lengthy read. I'll have to schedule this in tomorrow!

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Snowsprite

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Edited By Snowsprite

I'm concerned with the media's trend of reporting the reaction to the ending as a matter of audience entitlement or a dispute with a specific creative direction. Portraying it as such overlooks the importance of the real issue at hand and trivializes a very justifiable, understandable reaction to work that is objectively poor, and staggeringly thoughtless.

Artistic integrity doesn't exist in the Mass 3 ending, and to suggest that its faults are attributable to some auteur's immutable vision is to be ignorant of the facts. It's evident through casual observation that the (ostensibly) professional writers involved were too thick or too indifferent to put together an ending sequence featuring, at bare minimum, a basic level of coherence.

Writers who don't think about what they are doing for literally five seconds before committing it to paper can't be too concerned with this "artistic integrity". The final scenes of Mass Effect 3 are a complete mess, to where it's difficult to believe they weren't written by a child. Bioware has the right to whatever creative direction pleases them, and if it were just a matter of deliberate creative choices not going over well with the fans, there would be no issue as far as I'm concerned.

As an interactive multimedia art medium, games are in a unique position where fifth-grade caliber writing can end up being disproportionately rewarded with consumer support because other components of the product are good - namely the gameplay. This sends a dangerous message to developers and publishers: that writing of this quality is acceptable in an entertainment property for which one of the primary selling points is narrative. It's not.

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Curufinwe

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Edited By Curufinwe

It's amazing the lengths Patrick has gone to to avoid addressing the actual issues with the ending while also misrepresenting why people are upset about it.

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kfizz

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@needforswede: There was a twin peaks references in the shadow broker DLC. The backwards dream hotel part from twin peaks. I really just think the whole end twist was just handled some what poorly In mass effect 3. I still like that if it had happened that way, but they limited them self by making the endding CG rather then in engin. They could not have as many moving parts as say 2. Plus with any good developer all the ideas people are thinking of they did think of, its just implementing them that is the issue. They may have come to this conclusion for the people who never played a mass effect game. I find as trying to get that bigger splash in the pool. But they knew it would hurt them, so unless they can really prove that the ending they might change was the idea from the start. I just hope they did this endding because of not being able to do it justice the time table they had.