Sweet Jesus I need some Help - Ornstein and Smough

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#51 Posted by golguin (3972 posts) -

@mb said:

@golguin: I'm currently at about SL 55 or so...I've got a few points into str/dex/end/att for the basics and then am concentrating on faith for the miracles. As far as miracles go, I am using Heal, Lightning Spear, and have pyromancy flame +5 and fire orb attuned. For a shield I am using the Caduceus Kite Shield +10.

Up until this point I have generally been using the Shadow armor, sometimes equipping heavier armor if I need to. I've been trying either the Silver Knight set or the Crimson set for the resists against these bosses but it seems like I'm either slow and get pummeled because I can't get out of the way fast enough, or I'm fast and take way more damage and just die faster. I have been using the poise ring and the phys def ring together.

I don't think the problem is my gear or my build, it's just that I'm not great at the game yet and am especially poor at dodging. Up until this point I've mostly been using block then strike techniques or sometimes parrying, but hardly ever dodging.

I'll try your suggestion about getting more Estus flasks, I didn't even know that was possible!

Once you go down into the catacombs (entrance is at the graveyard area at Firelink with those skeletons) and kill Pinwheel for the Rite of Kindling you'll want to go fight Havel for his ring. If you already have it switch out the phys def ring for Havel's Ring so you could get a boost to your equip load limit. It will allow you to equip heavier pieces of armor with higher Poise. The Wolf Ring with its +40 Poise and Havel's Ring form one of the best ring combos in the game. Make sure to stay under 50% of your weight if you plan to dodge. 25% is ideal. If you still can't dodge just go full Havel armor.

Pyromancy is extremely powerful once you max out your flame. I don't know if your +5 is ascended or if you still need to get it to +15 and then to plus 5, but make sure it's maxed out. You'll want to attune Fire Orb and Great Fireball (take off Heal and keep Lightning Spear) so you can toss out some ranged fire attacks. You can kill them with Pyromancy alone (Great Combustion would replace Lightning Spear, but it's tricky to safely hit them with it by yourself and without Dexterity at 45) if you have your fire glove maxed out.

The last tip is to get your Endurance to 40. If you're not concerned about your level just get Endurance to 40 as fast as you can. If you want to beat them around your current soul level then 25 Endurance is enough for now.

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#52 Posted by MB (12741 posts) -

@golguin:

Thank you! That is all super helpful. After I've recovered enough from last night's failure session I'm going to look over your advice again and give it another go. My pyromancy isn't ascended yet, I've barely even used it thus far. I just got it because it was there.

That being said, I am very disappointed in myself that I didn't try out the Claymore move set before using all of my upgrade materials on it. After using the Drake Sword for so long, I can't stand this thing...it feels way too slow and cumbersome. I wish I would have went for a halberd or a spear of some kind, or even a different 1h straight sword that wasn't so damn big. Oh well.

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#53 Posted by golguin (3972 posts) -

@mb said:

@golguin:

Thank you! That is all super helpful. After I've recovered enough from last night's failure session I'm going to look over your advice again and give it another go. My pyromancy isn't ascended yet, I've barely even used it thus far. I just got it because it was there.

That being said, I am very disappointed in myself that I didn't try out the Claymore move set before using all of my upgrade materials on it. After using the Drake Sword for so long, I can't stand this thing...it feels way too slow and cumbersome. I wish I would have went for a halberd or a spear of some kind, or even a different 1h straight sword that wasn't so damn big. Oh well.

Upgrade material is essentially limitless and can be farmed. The only exception would be the slabs that max out a weapon, but you never need a maxed out weapon for PVE. If you want a weapon faster than a Claymore you can pretty much check out the majority of the other weapons in the game.

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#54 Edited by JackSukeru (5922 posts) -

@mb: The Claymore is a bit slow, but there ain't nothin wrong with it's moveset dawg. The R2 attack has great range, sticking your sword out in front of you, for one, and the two handed R1 is fast and goes straight.

Anyhow, if you really haven't put many points into Dex or Str but have focused on Faith then switching out to a faster weapon might still be doable, even though grinding for new materials will be annoying. For a faster weapon I would either recommend a Katana or the Balder Side Sword. Both usually scale good with Dex but will lose any effective Dex scaling in favor of Faith scaling if you make it a Divine weapon, which is what you'd want anyway. I don't know how good these weapons are when used as Faith weapons, but their ease of use should remain the same.

Balder Side Sword drops from the knights in Undead Parish, specifically those that don't use rapiers, but its rare and would require grinding them. Upgrading a regular longsword might work about as well if you don't want to bother with something like that. There's also Astora's Straight Sword, that already has Faith scaling, but it requires Twinkling Titanite which is still sparse where you are at in the game.

As for Katana there's either the Uchigatana or the Iaito. The Iaito is hidden around the start of Blighttown on a ledge you have to jump to, while the Uchigatana can be most easily aquired by killing the Undead Merchant in Undead Burg. Alternatively, you will have to join the Forest Hunters, meet Shiva in Blighttown and purchase it from him (you could also get the Washing Pole from him which, for your purposes, would just be a longer version of the Uchigatana).

If all this sounds too involved feel free to ignore it. Like Golguin said there are a lot of other weapons you can go for. You can make just about anything work if you upgrade it.

#55 Posted by crithon (3340 posts) -

man, keep hearing about this. I'm like about 15 hours in, and these guys sound frightening.

#57 Edited by TobbRobb (4754 posts) -

@mb: Honestly, I think you are better off getting a weapon you are more comfortable with, like a longsword or a halberd and then upgrading it to lightning/fire. Divine as an upgrade tree is one of the weaker ones damagewise, and will almost always be outdamaged by other elements even with a lot of faith. Fire/lightning are good choices since they are stat-agnostic and you can use them effectively in any build. I think just getting a higher damage weapon and making the fight less of an endurance race will do wonders for you. It's also noteworthy that neither O or S are weak to divine damage, rather they might even be resistant to it.

That said, you might want to keep the divine Claymore around, it's a pretty useful utility element in some areas.

#58 Posted by xaLieNxGrEyx (2605 posts) -

Your stat spread is terrible

#59 Posted by Karkarov (3189 posts) -

@crithon said:

man, keep hearing about this. I'm like about 15 hours in, and these guys sound frightening.

It isn't that bad. Just need a decent weapon (I used the Quellag (sp) sword and a lightning iaito) and be able to dodge around the pillars and time your attacks. Yes you will probably die a number of times, but as you practice and learn their moves and such you can start to predict how to counter them.

#60 Posted by MB (12741 posts) -

@jacksukeru: Well I do already have the Uchigatana upgraded to +5 I think, I was using it early on. I didn't realize that the scaling changed when upgraded to Divine, I thought it was always based on dexterity.

I'm learning as I go along, I didn't really read a whole lot into the game before I started playing so I've definitely made some mistakes, but I think part of the fun of Dark Souls is figuring things out as you go.

Your stat spread is terrible

Not a very helpful comment, dude. If you're going to participate in a topic like this, why not tell us why you think the stats are terrible and what you would suggest to make it better? Don't forget the Golden Rule of Giant Bomb - don't be a jerk.

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#61 Posted by Gatehouse (664 posts) -
@mb said:

Thank you! That is all super helpful. After I've recovered enough from last night's failure session I'm going to look over your advice again and give it another go. My pyromancy isn't ascended yet, I've barely even used it thus far. I just got it because it was there.

That being said, I am very disappointed in myself that I didn't try out the Claymore move set before using all of my upgrade materials on it. After using the Drake Sword for so long, I can't stand this thing...it feels way too slow and cumbersome. I wish I would have went for a halberd or a spear of some kind, or even a different 1h straight sword that wasn't so damn big. Oh well.

Sounds like a great weapon for you would be the Dragonslayer Spear. The trouble is, it's what Ornstein uses and you have to kill him to get it. If you can get that, that might suit you really well. It has good Faith scaling and also does lightning damage and comes with a nifty ranged attack to boot.

#62 Posted by MB (12741 posts) -

@tobbrobb said:

@mb: Honestly, I think you are better off getting a weapon you are more comfortable with, like a longsword or a halberd and then upgrading it to lightning/fire. Divine as an upgrade tree is one of the weaker ones damagewise, and will almost always be outdamaged by other elements even with a lot of faith. Fire/lightning are good choices since they are stat-agnostic and you can use them effectively in any build. I think just getting a higher damage weapon and making the fight less of an endurance race will do wonders for you. It's also noteworthy that neither O or S are weak to divine damage, rather they might even be resistant to it.

That said, you might want to keep the divine Claymore around, it's a pretty useful utility element in some areas.

Thanks, I may do just that. I just mentioned in a previous reply that I already have an Uchigatana +5 and I'm comfortable with it, so upgrading that to fire or lightning may not be a bad idea. I do have quite a few other weapons in my inventory as well, I just need to take a look at them.

I don't think I can stick with the claymore, using it is just not very fun to me.

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#63 Posted by TobbRobb (4754 posts) -

@mb: Nah you should definitely not stick with it. I just mean keep it in your inventory for the "very" rare occasion where having some divine damage is a real load off your mind.

Good luuuuuuck.

#64 Posted by skelington_ (292 posts) -

Might be quicker to restart the game as a sorcerer, waltz through to Anor Londo, and trample O & S like they don't exist at this point.

#65 Posted by Ravenlight (8040 posts) -

If you were thorough in exploring Sen's Fortress, you might already have a Lightning Spear. It's moveset and ability to attack from behind your shield might suit your playstyle.

#66 Posted by MB (12741 posts) -

@ravenlight: Yep, I have a Lightning Spear also but I haven't used it very much. I'll see how it feels before spending any more upgrade materials though, thanks for the suggestion!

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#67 Posted by TheManWithNoPlan (5808 posts) -

Taking out Ornstien first makes the fight much easier, because Smough is extremely predictable and easy to take out by himself.

#68 Posted by seveword (177 posts) -

On my first run I had a summoned Solaire and some other random dude and Ornstein was obliterated, and Smough was quick to fall afterwards. On NG+ though, I couldn't get anybody to help me and even though Smough fell fast enough, super Ornstein was hell. I wasn't fast enough to get close and wail on him, so I had to spam arrows from behind a couple broken columns. His lightning attack took out half my health every hit, but my fully upgraded bow did about a hundred damage a pop, so I just had to whittle down his life until I won. Tanking is an option, but I'm always more comfortable with dodging in almost every situation.

On another note, the Four Kings are damn near impossible on NG+. I tried for at least 4 hours, barely getting in enough damage to take one down, much less enough to win. The witch that you can summon does decent damage but goes down quick, and every other time I tried going down there as a human I was either invaded and killed or couldn't find anybody to summon and wasted a humanity. I had about 40 stored up humanity before I started the attempts, and had about 20 when I finally managed to beat those bastards. In comparison, Nito and Seath were pathetically easy, and I doubt the other remaining bosses are gonna give me as much trouble as those damn kings.

#69 Posted by MB (12741 posts) -

@tobbrobb: @golguin: @gatehouse:

Thanks for the help yesterday. I spent some time earlier this afternoon and got the Rite of Kindling, then farmed up some humanity and summoned Astaire and a player Sorcerer and we made short work of Ornstein and Smough. Instead of spending the time farming to upgrade another weapon, I just used the Divine Claymore +5. Tonight I ended up making it all the way through the Tomb of Giants and killed Nito. So, things are going much better. The additional flasks and some co-op help put me over the top.

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#70 Edited by Gatehouse (664 posts) -

@mb: Congrats duder, now you've also cleared my most hated area of the game too. Lovely work. Who did you kill first our of S&O by the way?

#71 Posted by Gatehouse (664 posts) -

@seveword: I had real issues on my NG+ run with the Four Kings too. My dex class wasn't able to deal enough damage quickly enough to them, unless I threw caution to the wind and didn't block. This usually ended up in nice, spicy death. In the end, I threw on Havel’s set and tanked through it, two handing my scythe, with victory soon coming my way.

#72 Edited by MB (12741 posts) -

@gatehouse: We killed O first. It just so happened that both Solaire and my other partner got on him first, so we focused fired him down and then easily took out S.

I also managed to find the White Titanite Chunk in there and just upgraded the claymore to Divine 10.

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#73 Posted by Gatehouse (664 posts) -

@mb: Shame, think you really would have dug O's spear. How are you finding the Claymore now?

#74 Posted by MB (12741 posts) -

@gatehouse: I'm getting a lot more used to it. I think it was just a matter of adapting my playstyle to a slower weapon. Also, having the Wolf Ring and Havel's ring combo has been a huge help to my dodging ability and general survivability, not to mention the 20 flasks I usually carry around now.

My claymore can 2-hit those skeleton dog beast things in the Tombs, so I feel like I'm doing plenty of damage. Also saved Rhea when I was down there and just bought Wrath of The Gods from her, so I'm really getting into the game now. After about 8-10 hours of banging my head against Ornstein and Smough yesterday, I was ready to throw my controller out the window. Glad I'm through that!

What's exciting is that I really have no idea what is coming up next. I mean, I have been around for Load our Last Souls, but most of the time I'm concentrating on the chat so I remember very little of what I've seen Vinny do in the game.

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#75 Edited by Gatehouse (664 posts) -

@mb: Wolf and Havel is a brilliant combo, I'm doing the exact same thing right now in my current playthrough. I've not really messed around with Miracles that much though, have you been having fun with them? Slower weapons take a little getting used to, but the claymore's a great mix of speed, power and reach.

Have you got the DLC by the way, as that area's got a couple of brilliant battles in it.

This really is a fantastic game to explore in, as it comes up with new things at every turn. When you feel like you can handle yourself, then it's even better.

#76 Edited by MB (12741 posts) -

@gatehouse: Miracles have been pretty fun, although I don't really have any other types of characters to compare them to. I usually play Paladin types in RPG's whenever it is an option, so thats how I am playing this character.

I'm trying to get every miracle I can find, but I only have 4 attunement slots right now. I always have Heal slotted. It's a great way to save Estus flasks and my Heal spell actually heals more than my Estus +2 does. I also have the Lightning Spear miracle I got from the Sunlight covenant. It is pretty bad ass and is my go-to ranged attack. Another one I am using all the time now is Emit Force, which shoots a ball of magic out that explodes and does damage and pushes enemies outward. Very useful for pushing people off of ledges. There are a bunch of other miracles that don't seem that useful and some I am not even going to bother buying. I did join the Gravelord Covenant temporarily and got the Gravelord Sword Dance miracle, which is similar to the ranged attack that Nito does with a red sword coming out of the ground. I usually don't even bother attuning it, though. I also just got Replenish which is a heal over time miracle that I haven't used very much yet.

Overall the Cleric/Paladin class is great fun to play. Lots of utility and a good variety of offensive and defensive miracles depending on which covenant you join. I've also built up my endurance enough (combined with Havel) to wear medium armor like a paladin should

I don't have the DLC yet.

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#77 Posted by Xeiphyer (5606 posts) -

Definitely go human and summon 2 other players. It'll help immensely.

#78 Posted by Gatehouse (664 posts) -

@mb: I hate to break your heart, but there is actually a rather snazzy Paladin set you could have gotten in the Tomb Of The Giants, but it requires you being human and facing an NPC phantom before the Nito fight. What kit are you wearing now (I'm just being super nosey now about you playthough)?

#79 Posted by MB (12741 posts) -

@gatehouse: I got the Paladin set by chance. I made sure I was human all the way to Nito just in case, and I faced the Paladin phantom in the hallway just before the boss and took him out.

My armor is sort of a mix of different pieces right now, but I change it up a lot because I haven't upgraded anything yet. I am using a few Silver Knight pieces and Havel's gauntlets, basically I equip as much as I can while staying under 50% encumbrance. I haven't upgraded any armor yet because I keep finding new and better stuff.

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#80 Edited by Gatehouse (664 posts) -

@mb: Smashing work sir, the Paladin set when upgraded is actually rather brilliant, according to the stats. It's only got 2 points less defence than Havel's but is much, much lighter, so that might be useful for the end of the game when you're positively swimming in twinkling titanite.

#81 Posted by seveword (177 posts) -

@gatehouse: It's one of the weirdest boss fights in Dark Souls, because up until that point the game has been teaching you to go slow, block or dodge, and attack only when necessary. The best strategy for the Four Kings is just to abandon caution, attack like mad and heal constantly, which is completely the opposite of most every other boss. It took me a long time to figure it out, but now that I have, I feel pretty good about it.

#82 Posted by dudeglove (8022 posts) -
#83 Posted by MB (12741 posts) -

@dudeglove: Nah, I joined the Darkmoon Blade covenant. I want to gank some gankers.

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#84 Posted by L2_Mythic (1 posts) -

Personally I'd recommend ditching the Giants Armor for the Silver Knight Set or Havels Set , Havel's Set may be slower but the Lightning Damage and Strike Protection is better than that of the Giants , and the Silver Knight Set is less resistant to lightning than Giants but also keeps your mobility up higher. Weapon wise I recommend getting a +10 Ricard's Rapier , 20-30 Dex and buying Gold Pine Resins and Charcoal Pine Resins , as Smough is Weak to Lightning and Orenstien is weaker to fire. Make sure you also have a 100% Physical Block Shield and a decent amount of stamina so you can tank a few hits here and there mainly Orenstien's Spear slash , Be on your guard when you enter the arena as Orenstien will either open up with a dash attack or a homing lightning burst and Smough will run to the outer edge of the arena , keep them both on screen when possible because if Orenstien manages to blindside you , you will take massive damage as he has a long range spear that deals massive thrust damage. Smough has four main moves , a Overhead slam , that is easy to dodge with a side roll, a Halberd like slash style swing easy also to dodge , a hard to dodge charge move where he kinda bulldozes at you then does a weird slash and a butt slam , easy to dodge with a simple backwards roll and it leaves him vulnerable to 2-4 hits. Orenstien is much easier as he has mainly thrusts and slashes , gaining the butt slam with a small Electric AOE if he is left alive and Smough dies first. Summon Solaire as either help or a Distraction as he can kite them around and hits pretty hard.

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