I have been suspecting that trials has skill matching since it started. I am struggling hard in trials, yet when my clan has played without me they consistently report playing against weak opponents, whereas seemingly every game I've played has been against really good teams.

I carried a 2.0 K/D in 5500 games of crucible across 3 years of Destiny 1. I went flawless dozens of times and usually 3 times a week when I was playing trials every week. I had a 2.40 KA/D in mostly solo queue Destiny 2 crucible prior to the launch of trials, yet I'm barely managing a 50% win rate in trials to this point. I have seen people on my friends list that I know for a fact are terrible at crucible with the flawless emblem. This can't be just bad matchmaking luck or my regional matchmaking pool having a lot of good players. There has to be something more going on for me to be playing against really good teams as consistently as I am.

If there is skill based matchmaking of some sort going on, all I have to say is it's pretty poor design to implement a matchmaking system designed to have every player win 50% of their games in a mode which has a goal of winning 7 games in a row.

Earlier today came up against three flawless and a plus one in quickplay me and three randoms absolutely destroyed them, two of the flawless skunked the game got called barely 4min in you can spot bad players a mile away and they were absolutely awful. Flawless how? it must be SBMM.

@zevvion:Whatever they intended to make this game very team oriented or not, it's very clear it is that now. The problem is, there are very few ways to interact with your team. Destiny is very different than other, better designed, team oriented PvP shooters. Take Overwatch for example. Each character in Overwatch has their own abilities that complement each other. Healers, tanks, DPS. But in Destiny how do you play off of each other? Well, 90% of the time your only way to interact with your teammates is to shoot down the same lane they are and team shoot 2v1, 3v1 or 4v1. If you're a Hunter, team shooting is the only way to interact with your team in an impactful manner. Destiny 2 might be a team game but it's one of the most boring and souless team games I have ever played.

If you're not tired of it yet it's probably because you haven't played the trials teams we went up against. Dozens of teams operating like well oiled team shooting machines. Going up against these guys feels like an hopeless grind as they surgically encircle you and perfectly place a grenade that wipes your whole team while you're getting shot from all sides.

In Destiny 1 trials I never felt like we went up against a team that was unbeatable. In my 2 and a half year playing it I was always able to see a way out. A way I could've used my super better or flanked more effectively or aim my gun more accurately. @hestilllives, @ll_exile_ll, @veggiesbro,@acidbrandon18 and I went up against streamers and top 100 trials players and won. In Destiny 2 we got pummeled, crushed and disintegrated dozens of times just in the first 2 weeks. This is when trials is at its easiest too. I've stopped counting the number of games that were 100% unwinnable. When you lose your 10th team shooting fight in a row it becomes very apparent why this longer time to kill and team oriented PvP is a terrible fit for Destiny.

I think I enjoy the PvP of D2 more even though I was better at D1. D1 was boring and stale for most of its time as it was just dominated by special weapons and how Titans just wrecked shit. I feel like the team I'm on actually has to work together and it is very satisfying when we do.

There are some things I don't like such as not being able to select which mode I want to play, no regular deathmatch for the folks who clearly want nothing to do with a team and make their opinion about it abundantly clear, and the stupid changes they made to the zone capture. I really don't like zone capture anymore.

The only positive time I've had in the crucible (I've only gone there three times, I think) was last night, and that was purely because of an incredibly hilarious and stupid thing. I was with two friends and we managed to finish off the Rat King's Crew with 27 seconds left on the Nightfall bit, and so we played some more strikes testing out the pistol and found it really funny and surprisingly good. You can fire that thing stupidly fast with 3 people, and the sound of it firing is kind of squeaky - well, as squeaky as firing a pistol can get.

So we dipped into two rounds of the Crucible before calling it a night, rolling around as the Rat Pack. Lost a control match (but fucking destroyed this Titan that popped Sunbreaker in a doorway, all of us lost it for the remainder of the match because of how instantly he dropped, as like 30 rounds hit him over a second) but won the next match where all you did was murder dudes. It was very dumb and incredibly hilarious, especially since all of us kept calling out "Rat Pack!" whenever we'd kill someone.

@pyrodactyl: D2 has as much interaction as Halo does where team shooting is king, holding a power position or locking down an area will be strategies you'll see more and more over time. Alot of people don't like the Halo but different still doesn't mean bad plenty will enjoy breaking a wolf pack, team shooting and fighting over power positions.

@ll_exile_ll: I do not disagree. We don't know for a fact because we just don't have the amount of games played at this point to conclude, but from my experience it seems accurate that Trials has SBMM of some sort. My K/D is pretty bad at 0.9 last I checked. I am not the best player on the planet, but I know for a fact I am better than my stats reflect. When I grouped with clan mates who had similar or lower stats, it wasn't that rare that I obtained an Annihilation medal in the first three matches. The opponents were often not very good.

But when I play with hesti, you or my regular-flawless friend who all have 1.8 or higher K/D's, the teams we went up against as soon as the first match felt noticeably better skilled. Theoretically it could just be variance. I had two games last night with my friend where he was AFK and we crushed the opponents regardless. But most games were real sweaty.

@zevvion: I thought this as well from what I've played. Who knows though. I will say it's extreme BS if it turns out they both removed Mercy from Flawless and put in SBMM. I know lower skilled players have been clammering for SBMM in Trials for ages but it really has no place. SBMM was one of the worst things they ever implemented into Destiny 1 because it doesn't work when your networking systems can't hold up to it. When even a small % of the player base drops we will once again see streamers near every single matchup and players from 1,000+ miles away which causes horrible lag. I've already seen several such matches and there is no fun feeling like you lost a game simply because a guy took 5 clips of ammo before dying and his teammates just ran up behind you for the kill. Lost a Flawless game already in D2 like that and it was infuriating.

The win based system seemed fair, but a pure SBMM system in Trials... it just has no place at all. Connection needs to be the primary concern.

Supremacy is a joke right now. If you play the quickplay crucible. No one one picks up their own teams crests. Do people just not care or do they not realize they are leaving points around for the other team. Over the last two weeks I've noticed this. When that comes up I spend most of my time running around picking up my own teams crests. No one ever does. Its insanely annoying.

I thought this was interesting the other day. I've talked both here and to friends about almost all of the things he mentions. I agree with pretty much all of it. For reference for those that don't know, SirDimetrious is one of the top Destiny PvP players in the world. Him and the other iAM guys have won numberous Destiny Tournaments over the years. Also, skip to 3:30.

I also agree with everything he said.

@hestilllives19: that video is super rambly and I don't think he addresses any of my main issues with PvP (team shooting city, super long grenade and super cooldowns, long time to kill, etc). Maybe people are getting use to it and still play but I personally lost almost all desire to play PvP. I wonder if the Destiny community shares this impression or if they're happy with the changes. Any crucible/trials participation stats for Destiny 2 vs Taken King anywhere? I would like to see if the falloff is similar or more pronounced.

@pyrodactyl: No numbers for Week 1 that I've seen, but here are the numbers for Week 2, 1,069,307. That is 200k more than any Destiny 1 Trials week ever. More interesting, only 1,673,197 matches were played, and a 1.6 matches per player rate is horrific compared to D1. In other words, lots of people tried it, very few even played a full card.

@hestilllives19: Its because it was tied to a trophy/achievement. People did what they need to get it and will never touch trials again. Its why the numbers were so high.

Didn't really like D1 PvP, but am enjoying this a lot more. Definitely not the thing I'm putting most of my time into, but every time I've gone back to it I've both had a good time and I've done really well.
I generally prefer larger PvP scenarios in most games so when i heard they were going down to 4v4 I assumed I would like it less, but instead I think it gives the game a really nice pace. Makes every death feel impactful and makes sticking together super important. Yes, it often leads to big shootouts in hallways, but I honestly think those are way more fun than 1v1 melee fests. You can go for a flank, pop those class abilities, and sometimes those engagements can last for awhile. Never got that feeling in D1

My main beef is with the matchmaking. Queuing solo and being matched against a clan of 4 means a guaranteed loss almost every time. Either have grouped matchmaking or have the mindless carnage of everyone queuing solo, but to pit one against the other is a waste of time and completely unfair.

Weapon balance and server lag means kill-swaps are everywhere, which I also hate. And I can't find a pistol I like as much as Destiny 1, which is also pretty frustrating. Other than that.... eh. It's not terrible.

I wish I could just play the Counter-Strike mode and nothing else. It's the only game mode in D2 that I can tolerate

Playing with friends has been a good amount of fun. Definitely have to change how I played vs. destiny 1 but the added abilities have made it more interesting. It's also easier to kill supers and I'm not getting shot gunned every 5 seconds. Now that I think about it, it's way better.

It's looking like Destiny 2 is down quite a bit on its predecessor Destiny 2 UK physical sales down by half from Destiny 1 with Japan showing similar numbers Destiny 2 Tops Japanese sale charts we'll get info from the US soon but given Activision weak PR its probably the same story.

After all the casuals try trails once I would start expecting big drops and probably across the board given how easy it is to get everything and see all the content. I also don't think Bungie will be surprised by any of this people felt they got stung on D1, the smaller player counts in crucible with fewer play list seem designed to facilitate smaller overall player base especially so with every level up pushing you in front of a microtransaction shop window.

All of points raised in the video regarding competitive are legit concerns that should be in the game but wouldn't do anything to help the game popularity wise or the bottom line. Bungie have never done anything to foster a competitive community and consistently did the opposite with Halo.

However the hit registration is purely a peer 2 peer issue that can't be fixed without dedi's its no wonder D2 feels better than Y3 D1 there's just more people. Also asking for more auto aim to help boost the skill cap is crazy if anything less aim assist for AR and increasing the drop off range would give HC a role without any buff needed, flinch stops hard scoping and promoting mobility its why hip fire got a big buff I don't understand the complaint its either that or de-scoping.

Destiny 2 seems built for smaller number asking for 6v6 and more playlists would only create more lag an issue that would only compound over time.

The multiplayer is the best in the biz. I'd say typically the people who don't like it are the same people with negative KDs.

@kgkris: Heck ya!

@warreng: obvious trolling is obvious. I would agree with you if you were referencing specific moments in Destiny 1 crucible history. This Destiny 2 PvP? Complete garbage. It's so tactically limiting and boring compared to the best of Destiny 1 crucible. I hope people drop it like a rock and force Bungie to make fun PvP again.

@thepanzini: True, not only that but Destiny was Bungie's and Activision's spoiled new born that came in at the first year of this generation. So, if you think about it a little, you will realize that a portion of these numbers are players who didn't even know what they are getting.

If we would want to give Destiny 2 a fare comparison then it is best to compare it to The Taken King sales.

@thepanzini: @giant_gamer:

1- I don't see how Destiny 2 sales have anything to do with anything.

2-Like Jeff said on the bombcast, you would expect Destiny 2 to do very well on digital storefronts. I know I, and all members of my clan, bought Destiny 2 digitally. So yeah, you really can't draw any conclusions from the U.K. retail sales charts. My personal impression is that Destiny interest around the internet is higher than ever so I'm very confident the game did pretty well. Now how well exactly? I guess we'll have to wait for some activision conference call or something.

@pyrodactyl: How many players engaged in crucible wouldn't be a good indicator if less people bought the game, also the UK has been a very good barometer for the rest of the world its been spot on everytime this gen.

@thepanzini: I think Destiny 2 might be doing ok. DestinyTracker has had 4.9 million unique users searched for at least once on it's site. That number for Destiny 1 only got up to around 10 million after 3 years. So halfway back there in month one isn't too bad.

The Bungie not doing anything for the competitive community just isn't true at all. See Private Matches in Y3, Bungie sponsored PvP tournaments, and all of the other things they were pushing at that time. I mean, this entire Crucible, while I don't like everything about it right now, was a way to cater towards that Hardcore PvP community of Destiny 1. Know where the idea for 4v4 came from... Sweats (ie guys like SirDimetrious above). They starting doing 4v4 as the primary group size for competitive matches and tournaments after Private Matches were introduced. Personally, I wish they would listened to these guys more often. There is no getting around it, these guys know and understand Destiny better than Bungie themselves seem to (maybe because they literally just play PvP all day long every day).

As far as the hit registration issues, it sounds like you might have misunderstood what he was saying. Destiny 1 both had worse connections than Destiny 2 has had so far, but also had better hit registration (after Hand Cannon Initial Shot Accuracy patch, basically Bungie made HC's artificially not hit where shot as a nerf, albeit the dumbest of nerfs, but one that lasted about 18 months), more base Aim Assist (like a lot more) across the board, and just all around felt better to play. The problem he's talking about is that Destiny 2 feels drastically worse because of the less Aim Assist and seemingly worse Initial Shot Accuracy across the board again (feels eerily similar to broken HC's during Taken King and early Rise of Iron, and considering how Bungie has in the past thought bullets not going exactly where shot is a proper balancing mechanic, it's is very likely this is exactly what is going on). Aim Assist in Destiny isn't really Auto Aim either. In Destiny, there are two different ways Aim Assist works. On Snipers, high Aim Assist only effects the speed at which a Sniper slows down as it passes a Crit (no doubt it's extremely helpful, but it's far from an Auto Aim as all it does is slow the reticle). For other weapons, Aim Assist slightly increases the size of the Crit as it has more Aim Assist. It doesn't pull bullets towards targets, just makes hitting them slightly easier. The more important two terms to understand when it comes to Destiny's shooting mechanics are Bloom and Initial Shot Accuracy. Every gun has Bloom, which is basically just the size of the Accuracy Cone, and the term to indicate that the Cone grows larger each and every time a bullet is fired. Single shot guns are impacted much more drastically by Bloom increases on multiple shots (this is most noticeable on Hand Cannons due to both their low range mixed with a high Bloom value). Initial Shot Accuracy is how small that Bloom Accuracy circle is upon it's first shot. To compound this issue, the range stats also effect both the Bloom and ISA.

Basically all of this is to say Bungie has really complicated mechanics to dictate Accuracy in Destiny. In Destiny 2 it feels a lot like Bloom and ISA are at the widest they've been in a very long time, which means guns just don't feel like they hit where you shoot them 100% of the time. Auto Rifles really aren't the issue right now. They are in a good place. Hand Cannons just really aren't reliable because they don't hit where they are shot consistently right now again. Same thing with certain Scout Rifles. The Flinch he was talking about in that video is also a huge thing. IMO primary guns shouldn't flinch other Primary guns much at all, but right now it's extremely hard to engage an opponent who has already shot you. This is a very bad thing. One of the things that he was talking about with Skill Ceilings is how 1 person just doesn't feel very impactful anymore in any fight. This is due to a lot of factors, most notably the fact that Grenades are pretty terrible across the board. So 1 player can't really hope to engage 2, especially with the compounding Flinch issues SirD mentions. All of these issues lowers the Skill Ceiling, which isn't a good thing, especially when a high Skill Ceiling was one of the selling points for D1 PvP. Skilled players could actually make impacts in matches, and all of the changes to D2 have drastically removed those impacts (obviously good players are still good players, but it makes the game a lot more boring on the high end of PvP).

These are some of the reasons a lot of us who played a lot of D1 PvP are kind of annoyed now. The game just doesn't feel as crisp, it's less fun, and it requires your team to be as on point as you are at all times. At least in my opinion, that isn't a fun place. I just hope they roll back some of these changes because all of my issues are design decisions on Bungie's part, and ones they can and have in the past changed their minds about, and I hope they do over the coming months.

@hestilllives19: The guy in the video calls it AA throught also in reference to 30 fps its nonsense and talks hit registration regarding melee, but if your talking bloom then yeah rip it out I hate it but the skill ceiling isn't lower its just been moved.

@hestilllives19: I believe that Bungie is trying to sell the PvP in Destiny 2 as a team based competitive shooter and I believe that they did a pretty good job with it. Because in Destiny 2, if you stray away from your team you are most likely dead and causing your team to lose a couple of points.

I agree with all criticisms made about any other weapon type besides the auto rifle, because I found myself using the other weapon types just to change my play style every now and then, but not because they are better than the auto rifle.

@giant_gamer: competitive Destiny as always been reliant on comunication and team work. If you wanted team play you could always play with friends and use communication to get an advantage.

Now, unless your game is entirely built around team work you shouldn't require players to always play as a unit. Destiny isn't built around teamwork. It's designed to make you, personally, feel like a badass. The ways you can play off your teammates is quite limited compared with other team oriented PvP shooters.

That is why the amount of teamwork required in Destiny 1 was well balanced and why Destiny 2 is worse in that regard. It is extremely limiting and boring to have to play off your team all the time when play off of means "shoot the same guy at the same time, I guess".

So yeah, status update: crucible is still bad. Trials is worse somehow even though I like this week's map better. Gonna keep an eye on the trials participation numbers and praying they dive off a cliff. That's the only way they end up making PvP I want to play again in a year or something.

@pyrodactyl: 871,641 as of right now, with more than a full day left to play, so that is not looking likely. If anything a new map looks to have bolstered those numbers a bit...

I know I personally have trailed off a bit. Yesterday was the first day since launch that I didn't play Destiny. I've only played like 4 matches of trials this week and have little desire to play more.

More generally, not just PvP, I'm not really feeling the pull to play much at all right now. The Faction Rally re-ignited my interest a bit, but only briefly. If they have any events or secret quests planned for the next few weeks I'll definitely jump on for those, and I'm quite looking forward to the prestige raid, but beyond that I'm just looking towards the first expansion in December. The lack of anything to really chase or strive for on a long term level really kills the desire to play.

I know I'm in the super hardcore % in terms of how much I've played (just over 150 hours over the past 4 weeks), but it really is a bummer to essentially have everything and be (pretty much) max level on all three characters. Destiny 1 was way too far in the other direction in terms of the grind it demanded from players, but 150 hours into that game at it felt like you always had something to strive for and there were plenty of things you could be doing to make some kind of progress (even if that meant running around on the moon listening to a podcast while you farmed helium filaments).

@ll_exile_ll: Oh, I'm right there with you honestly. Outside of Trials each weekend for it's own sake and a Raid for the same, I don't really have any actual reason to play right now either other than obtaining that stupid Nergal from the douchebag Gunsmith who just straight refuses do give it to me (it's not like I'm 64 Gunsmith Rank up's into it or anything...).

I think as a whole numbers will fall across the board there's nothing to do beyond a few hours work every Tuesday but even then at max light most of thats mute. Destiny 2 still hasn't fixed any of its core issues for me the content more of it for sure is all one and done leaving me with no desire repeating any of it and Bungie still hasn't found its thing to grind in Destiny its just artificial light creep. Even the raid and trails have lost their shine none of the gear is really special anymore and can be have from clan rewards too without any participation, its an odd predicament considering D1 was sold on your character being defined by their activities the pendulum has swung about face completely the opposite way. Destiny 2 is a game I like alot but I wish it found its nightmare, rift or true hunter mode I feel its gonna wait until D3.

@hestilllives19: I don't know how many Agenda 5 he gave me already, like 3, 4?

"Here this gun that looks like nergal."

@hestilllives19: @galerian: is that gun suppose to be any good? I got like 3-4.

@pyrodactyl: It's usable but I think people like Nergal more cause of the full auto perk.

I played 5 games of Crucible in Quick Match yesterday because there was a Reputation Reward available for it.

I have to say, compared to my memories of Destiny 1 PvP and to other competitive shooters (Titanfall 2) I've played since then, this isn't holding me.

I did 5 solo games, got 3 TDM, 1 Kill Confirmed and 1 Control. Things I noticed and disliked include the 4v4 format. I'm sure that's great for teaming up with buddies and going as Clan vs Clan, but as a solo player it felt like too few people. The maps are small though, so maybe it's required. It felt like everything revolved around who had more players at the time and because of the lower player count, if you ever go down to 4v2 you'll have a hard time coming back.

The games always went to time too. It feels like they should lower the amount of kills/points required to win. No game ever ended with more than about 30/40 kills.

Going forward I think I'll just ignore the Crucible. The gameplay isn't what I want out of a competitive team shooter anymore and unless they bring in some great/meaningful rewards it doesn't seem like something I want to do.

I liked Destiny 2 a lot more than Destiny 1, which I hated beyond all reason and played less than 20 hours of, but after 80+ hours I don't have much desire to continue D2 until new content drops, but I honestly can't complain I got a shit ton of playtime out of it and will still hop in to play with friends getting it new and do the milestones on Tuesday for alts.

There was enough at launch to keep me interested for almost 3 weeks of non stop play that is fantastic compared to 3 days of Destiny 1.

@pyrodactyl: It's probably the best Pulse in the game right now, though the new high RoF ones from New Monarchy are suppose to be pretty good too. But Scouts (Mida especially) just seem to be in a great place over Pulses due to the extra range. But within that 10m sweet spot, Pulses tear through Scouts. The only problem is it's real easy to close that gap with an Auto, and Auto's shred Pulses just slightly closer, so Pulses in general are just in a weird place right now. I like using a loadout like Nightshade/Prosecutor or Better Devils/The End, but the Mida/Uriel's Gift is probably easily the best loadout for any map right now. It gives you a boost to speed when running, basically unlimited range with quick lateral movement while ADS, and then one of the fastest Medium to Close TTK with stupid flinch on Uriel's. I just find it really boring to just use the "Meta" loadout. If you add to that a 2 shot Rocket Launcher then you are running the Meta (no words can describe how much I hate Rocket Launchers in PvP just like I knew I would, they are Power Weapons for actual babies who can't use a real weapon). I do want a Main Ingredient Fusion Rifle though, I would never take it off. Shock and Awe is decent, but that Main Ingredient just maps people.

@hestilllives19: Mida/Uriel's/rocket launcher is exactly the load out I use for Crucible right now and I had no idea it was the "meta" load out lol. The scout/ar/launcher setup just makes sense. Until I had Mida I was rolling with Nameless Midnight and Hard Light, but Mida's always on radar perk makes it more useful so I switched, then I couldn't use Hard Light, so I picked the next best thing. I think the fact that I stumbled into the meta load out with out giving it much thought beyond "these guns in particular do murder way better than anything else I've used" might say something about the state of PvP atm.

@hestilllives19: it's a shame how the game basically forces you to use a scout rifle since nothing can compete in long lane engagements, the most common engagements of team shooting city

@hestilllives19: We had the luck to go up against two top 100 players in Trials this past weekend. One guy had a 5.1 and the other a 4.6. They were using Vigilance Wing + Last Hope, which is the combo I am using. It made me feel pretty good that the best players on the planet like the same guns I do. And then I felt terrible after they wrecked us so hard, I probably shouldn't be allowed to even play this game.

I mean, it’s fine as an add-on to what’s there (raids, nightfall’s, etc.) but compared to actually good competitive shooters, it’s a joke IMO. Whenever I’m forced to play it for a milestone and even when I’m doing very well, I still wish I was just playing another shooter, not a good sign.

I don't play a lot of multiplayer shooters, and I think the Crucible is fine. I'm rarely at the bottom, my win/lose ratio is about even, and I would say that I've experienced an even split of slaughters. Again though I'm not well versed in multiplayer shooters, but I have enjoyed my time.

@zevvion: The top 1,000 players are really in a weird flux right now for Trials. If you are judging it by ELO, it has more to do with who has done more carries and who has just plain played more often so far. I have a friend who is number 301 right now with a 5.92 KDA (which if you ask me is a BS stat in Destiny 2, basically it only counts half your assists so his KA/D, which IMO is way more important is actually 6.85). He makes me feel like a complete scrub with a 2.27 Trials KA/D. By the same token if you look at WishULuck (probably the best Destiny player out there, even if he is also the biggest tool as well), he has a 7.35 KA/D and isn't even in the top 200. Same deal with a couple other players who are easily top 100 players (all of which I played in D1 and they are stupid good) like Ramblinnn (4.78), nKuch (4.58), xDarkharXD (5.84), Grimm_vvas (4.82), and FBungie_ (5.86) who are barely holding in the top 1,000 even with above 4.5+ KA/D's. I saw at least 5 of my actual friends who are top 1,000 right now who definitely don't deserve to be there, they just play a lot, and on stacked teams so they haven't been losing much. It will probably take awhile but ELO generally evens out after a few months and will be a better indicator of skill by December, especially when the numbers start to drop and the cut throats have to start playing each other more often. I really hope Bungie addresses their Matchmaking settings for Trials though soon. I preferred Card Based to the current seemingly SBMM setup. There was a ramp up in difficulty rather than just extremely hard from the get go. I almost feel like I have to go in stacked to go Flawless, especially now that there is no mercy. I also have a few friends I just can't play with because they can't handle the L's when they happen (nobody at GB, a few Trials friends). I've done mostly 3 good players with 1 average to below average on a lot of cards, but those rarely go well now that my SBMM settings are starting to jump up seemingly. I think part of it is that it's using the same settings from Competitive and I went into Trials only playing like 6-8 Competitive matches, so it took a bit to dial my setting in with Trials so I was getting pretty easy cards early on, but that doesn't seem to be the case as much anymore. I just wish Bungie would openly talk about this stuff, though I doubt they ever will, or not for a long time.

@zevvion: I think that is what kinda felt so wrong with crucible right now. Your sense of helplessness when the game is not going your way. In D1, when I get wrecked(not by fusion nade, eff that), it left me feeling bad, but not angry as I felt when it happens in D2.

@hestilllives19: the idea that people will still be playing this garbage PvP in December really pains me. I guess I'm weird for thinking they completely destroyed the only PvP shooter I liked. People seem ok with this creatively dead mode and the boring ass playstyle it forces on you. At least I like PvE still. Hopefully they don't fuck that up somehow

@pyrodactyl: You know, not everyone agrees with you when you keep saying the PvP is garbage for weeks now (and even before the game was released). I think almost everything about the PvP is superior to D1. Ability spam was dumb, the increasingly Call of Duty damage numbers were not fun and the lack of tactical approaches to combat was something I missed. It certainly is a differently playing game now in PvP, but calling it garbage feels like an exaggeration to me that you make just because you don't like the direction it took.