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    Dragon Age II

    Game » consists of 16 releases. Released Mar 08, 2011

    This sequel to Dragon Age: Origins features faster combat, a new art style, and a brand new, fully voiced main character named Hawke.

    Dragon Age 2 and arbitrary plot changes based on class. SPOILERS

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    Ulong

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    #1  Edited By Ulong

    So, I was playing the demo for Dragon Age 2, and it was pretty fun. Too easy, but the demo is forced on normal difficulty, can turn it up in the full version.
     
    There was one thing that really bothered me though, early game spoilers ahead:
     


     
    What are other peoples thoughts on this?
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    Yummylee

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    #2  Edited By Yummylee

    That's pretty common knowledge to anyone who's kept up to date with the game, but as for how it works, I think it's a pretty cool feature. It inspires replay value since not only are they both different classes, but they're naturally completely different characters to go along with it. From the outset for example, Bethany is more a friend towards you while Carver upholds the archetypal sibling rivalry shtick.
     
    It's a shame there's no way to to save both of them, but it's just one of the few set in stone happenings that can't be rectified. Like how Hawke will always be stuck as a human from Lothering.

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    alistercat

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    #3  Edited By alistercat

    It sucks but you can see why they do it for balance reasons. I guess I dont care about either of them as characters so it doesn't bother me.

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    Ulong

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    #4  Edited By Ulong

    I can't really see why they did it for balance reasons. There's going to be multiple mage characters and multiple warrior  characters, regardless of who dies. It's not going to change your options for party config drastically.

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    jorbear

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    #5  Edited By jorbear

    It makes sense to me. It encourages replaying the game, which for a game with no multiplayer, is what Bioware and EA hope for.

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    Yummylee

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    #6  Edited By Yummylee
    @Ulong said:
    " I can't really see why they did it for balance reasons. There's going to be multiple mage characters and multiple warrior  characters, regardless of who dies. It's not going to change your options for party config drastically. "
    If you were a mage with Bethany alive, you could potentially have a full party of mages. Same with if you're a warrior and Carver. 
    Weird why even the Rogue class knocks off Carver, though.
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    Ulong

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    #7  Edited By Ulong

    I don't mean to seem like this is a huge major game breaking deal to me, I just want to clarify that before anyone attacks me for being rabid about this or something, I'm not, I just think it's an interesting conversation point.
     
     
    There'd be just as much replayability if there deaths were somehow caused by a player descision indirectly. It doesn't have to be as heavy handed as in Mass Effect 1, but it can be something subtle like just the way you respond to some casual conversation peace makes one of them more reckless and likely to charge the ogre.

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    alistercat

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    #8  Edited By alistercat
    @Ulong said:
    " I can't really see why they did it for balance reasons. There's going to be multiple mage characters and multiple warrior  characters, regardless of who dies. It's not going to change your options for party config drastically. "
    Yeah, but it's about giving you options. Balancing the options not your party choice. I will almost certainly go with 2 mage, 2 warrior but you could end up with too many mages if that is the case. They are just trying to offset the one constant factor, which is your own class.
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    ArbitraryWater

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    #9  Edited By ArbitraryWater

    Considering you get like... 2 other mages in addition to Bethany, I don't think it's a huge deal if you want to ever double up your mage power. It's probably partially for early game balance reasons, and partially to create replay value. Of course, neither of your siblings seem like especially interesting characters, especially when compared to crazy possessed Anders or that Dwarf guy who tells your story so I don't consider it an especially damning design choice.

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    Quacktastic

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    #10  Edited By Quacktastic

    Sort of torn between 'I get it' and 'They could have found a better way.'
     
    Maybe the other dies a little later though, who knows?

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    DeShawn2ks

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    #11  Edited By DeShawn2ks

    I don't know I think it is pretty cool. It is going to give me a excuse to finally play a game as a mage. For some reason in these sort of games I always go with the warrior.

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    mordukai

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    #12  Edited By mordukai
    @Abyssfull said:
    " That's pretty common knowledge to anyone who's kept up to date with the game, but as for how it works, I think it's a pretty cool feature. It inspires replay value since not only are they both different classes, but they're naturally completely different characters to go along with it. From the outset for example, Bethany is more a friend towards you while Carver upholds the archetypal sibling rivalry shtick. It's a shame there's no way to to save both of them, but it's just one of the few set in stone happenings that can't be rectified. Like how Hawke will always be stuck as a human from Lothering. "
    True but why tie it to class. Why not tie it to your decisions. Seems odd like how they tied weapon augmentation according to class in ME2 which made zero sense to me. 
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    Yummylee

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    #13  Edited By Yummylee
    @Mordukai said:
    " @Abyssfull said:
    " That's pretty common knowledge to anyone who's kept up to date with the game, but as for how it works, I think it's a pretty cool feature. It inspires replay value since not only are they both different classes, but they're naturally completely different characters to go along with it. From the outset for example, Bethany is more a friend towards you while Carver upholds the archetypal sibling rivalry shtick. It's a shame there's no way to to save both of them, but it's just one of the few set in stone happenings that can't be rectified. Like how Hawke will always be stuck as a human from Lothering. "
    True but why tie it to class. Why not tie it to your decisions. Seems odd like how they tied weapon augmentation according to class in ME2 which made zero sense to me.  "
    Like I said earlier, if you're a Mage and somehow managed to save Bethany, that could potentially give you a party of four mages. It's the same should you choose a warrior with Carver surviving; though four warriors naturally isn't as over-powered as a full squad of Mages. 
     
    The Rogue thing still confused me, though. I would of liked that upon picking a Rogue, it's determined at random which one dies.
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    Ulong

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    #14  Edited By Ulong

    is 4 mages still over powered when you're playing on a difficulty with aoe damage?

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    Yummylee

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    #15  Edited By Yummylee
    @Ulong said:

    " is 4 mages still over powered when you're playing on a difficulty with aoe damage? "

    Good point. Then again, you can no doubt spec your Mages in a variety of ways with some more suited to singular damage. Also has the Arcane Warrior Specialisation returned anyone know?
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    Ulong

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    #16  Edited By Ulong

    I had another thought, no where near worth it's own thread so I figured I'd just post it here.
     
    Did anyone else notice that there were several skill tree's you couldn't access in the demo, but instead of just setting them to locked or something, they set them to "requires level 99". It's functionally the exact same thing ofcourse, but it seemed really odd to me.

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    LlamaLlama

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    #17  Edited By LlamaLlama

    Official reasoning from the Bioware devs is that the death comes so early in the game that you can't really make a decision like that yet. It would be the Ash/Kaiden decision from Mass Effect but during Eden Prime. You haven't developed a relationship with the character other than the one you have been told you have, so it makes no sense to in the first half hour force into a decision like that. Thus it was made class based.
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    Ulong

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    #18  Edited By Ulong
    @LlamaLlama: 
     
    That still kind of falls back to what I was saying earlier. It could be an idirect descision. Something you say makes one of them want to proove themselves, whoever you make want to proove  themselves get's more reckless, charges the ogre etc.
     
    There's ways for player choices to effect things without the player knowing they're making the descision, that don't involve arbitrarilly tying it to class, you know?
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    LlamaLlama

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    #19  Edited By LlamaLlama
    @Ulong said:
    " @LlamaLlama:   That still kind of falls back to what I was saying earlier. It could be an idirect descision. Something you say makes one of them want to proove themselves, whoever you make want to proove  themselves get's more reckless, charges the ogre etc.  There's ways for player choices to effect things without the player knowing they're making the descision, that don't involve arbitrarilly tying it to class, you know? "

    True, but I also hold onto the idea that while the player should the at the center of the good, not everything needs to be a consequence of their actions. DA2 ( in that moment) doesn't have that, rather it is about how do you make choices afterwards. How is your relationship with your other sibling and mother affected by the choice. Mama Hawke after all cursed me for not stopping Carver from getting slaughtered, so I assume that there will be some conflict about that. 
     
    I'm not against indirect decisions, I thought that the indirect consequences were the best moments in the Witcher, but I just feel that the player shouldn't always decide the fate of all the other characters. Sometimes we should merely be reacting.
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    Ulong

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    #20  Edited By Ulong
    @LlamaLlama: 
     
    I actually agree with you on that, the player not allways being in control is good. I wanted to post a major spoiler from infamous one here, anyone who played through infamous twice probably knows the moment I'm talking about, but I actually thought that was a pretty good moment on my second playthrough.
     
    The thing is, in this case the player is actually in full control over who lives or dies, but they're in control in a really silly way.
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    Lukeweizer

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    #21  Edited By Lukeweizer

    You can double mage it up when you team up with another mage. I can see why they'd even out the classes you have early on in the game.

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    Mr_Skeleton

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    #22  Edited By Mr_Skeleton

    It isn't really arbitrary and I think it's pretty cool. 

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    LlamaLlama

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    #23  Edited By LlamaLlama
    @Ulong said:
    "@LlamaLlama:   I actually agree with you on that, the player not allways being in control is good. I wanted to post a major spoiler from infamous one here, anyone who played through infamous twice probably knows the moment I'm talking about, but I actually thought that was a pretty good moment on my second playthrough. The thing is, in this case the player is actually in full control over who lives or dies, but they're in control in a really silly way. "

    Only through metagaming however. If you play through on one and never learn the factors, playing the game the next time/seeing/hearing about the survival of the other sibling will come as a shock. In some ways, I think they should have saved that part for the game rather than the demo, but the rumors and theories of the factors (lots of people thought Carver could survive if Aveline was killed) probably ensured its awareness for those searching.
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    Ulong

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    #24  Edited By Ulong

    I think one of the reasons I don't like it being tied to class is that it can actually take away from replayability depending on how someone wanted to play.
    Say you're only going to do two play throughs, one as a warrior and one as a rogue, either way you get stuck with Bethany when maybe if the player could control it in some way, you'd have switched it up for variety.
     
    There's also going to be people who only really like playing as mages, but they're going to do two very different styles of mage, and they want to make completly different story descisions to experience the variety in terms of story telling, while they might not be interested in the class variety.

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    Daveyo520

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    #25  Edited By Daveyo520

    They just want to make sure you have a mage if you are not one and have a warrior if you aren't one. I don't mind it, it just means I will replay it and I like the thought that I will actually do that for once.

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    Ulong

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    #26  Edited By Ulong

    You actually have a warrior either way. I forget her name but you get some orange haired warrior woman before the moment where someone dies even happens.
     
     
    Edit: also did anyone notice there was no auto level up in the demo? I never use auto level up in the full version, but since it was just the demo i kindof wanted to just quick level my party members and move on and there didn't seem to be a button to do that.

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    Yummylee

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    #27  Edited By Yummylee
    @Daveyo520 said:
    " They just want to make sure you have a mage if you are not one and have a warrior if you aren't one. I don't mind it, it just means I will replay it and I like the thought that I will actually do that for once. "
    Even without Bethany, there's another two Mages (Anders and Merril) you'll encounter. Same with Carver and the Warriors (Aveline and Fenris).
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    Enigma777

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    #28  Edited By Enigma777

    I thought it was great! An awesome little twist that inspires multiple playthroughs.

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    Daveyo520

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    #29  Edited By Daveyo520
    @Abyssfull: But not right away to start your party (except Aveline) it is to make sure at the onset you are ok. 
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    Yummylee

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    #30  Edited By Yummylee
    @Daveyo520 said:
    " @Abyssfull: But not right away to start your party (except Aveline) it is to make sure at the onset you are ok.  "
    Not really. If Bethany dies it's because you're a Mage yourself of course, which still leaves you with Aveline like you said. Should Carver die, you'll still have Bethany for your Mage slot, and even if you chose Rogue, Aveline is still there to fill up your warrior spot.

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