Brad's COD/DOTA double standards

So I just finished listening to this week podcast, pretty fucking good as always. But I got to ask, Why is it every time COD or a Modern Military game comes out in the discussion Brad has to bash/hate on it.

I mean DOTA 2 and Starcraft 2 are basically the same game than Dota and Stacraft, the iterative changes they did with SC2 from SC, are basically no different from changes we have seen from COD4 to Black Ops 2, yeah they are the same game... and guess what, maybe a lot of people just don't get tired of playing that... and guess what!? maybe that is not a bad thing.

I'm pretty sure brad is gonna keep playing dota 2 in years to come, and it is going to be basically the same game, So why does he seem to be angry with the fact some people will keep buying and playing COD in the upcoming years? like how is that any different? Just saying unlike DOTA at least COD players are getting a new dumb campaign to play every year.

Disclaimer, I'm not bashing or hating or him.. more like curious because it does seem to me like a clear case of double standards, maybe I'm not seeing something.. or what? what's going on with this?

He's sick of military shooters, has always loved Starcraft and now loves DOTA 2 as his first MOBA.

I do not see the double standard here. Also, it's not like there has been released a DOTA or Starcraft game every year...

The double standard is that somehow it is cool for DOTA and SC to remain the same and remain popular... So why is that military shooters that need to evolve and be something else because... reasons?

DOTA and StarCraft don't ask you to play 60 dollars every year for virtually the same game unlike COD. Look at what that philosophy did to Madden.

I see your point, but I think the perception is different due to how the games are sold.

CoD bleeds people for $60 a year. Even if the sequels of Starcraft or Dota don't wildly change everything, at least they don't have the audacity to release another one every damn fall.

@donpixel: I don't remember him saying that he wanted COD to die out, more that he questioned how long Activision could keep it going. Regardless of what you think about that, that's not hating on the franchise. What he has said in the past is that he's sick of that kind of shooter, which is a matter of taste and has nothing to do with double standards.

As an aside, I still think you're comparing apples and oranges here. COD is on a yearly release schedule, there has been about ten years between Starcraft games and DOTA games.

Not everybody buys a new COD game every year.. I skipped MW3 and Blops, I played MW2 with friends for more than 2 years no problem.. Got Blops2 probably going to keep playing that for a while. There is people still playing COD4 (and in large numbers) on PC and even 360. They may release a new game every year but no one is forcing you to buy it, and it doesn't render the previous game useless... so why is this a problem?

Micro transactions and DLC? well.. Brad was braging about buying a $35 dlls item or whatever... heck I played dota for 6 months spent about a $70 on it, so again? Why is it cool to do dumb shit with DOTA ? but somehow it is outrageous if you do the same with COD?

It will keep going till people get tired of it, same as DOTA. For how long Valve will keep going with DOTA2? till people get tired of playing it and spending on vanity items, is that bad? I don't think so. Is it different with COD or Maden? I don't think so either.

Because there were only 2 main SC releases and they were more then a decade apart. There is no sequel fatigue there (the reverse in fact). It's also a very sparse genre, there simply are not that many traditional RTS games out there these days.

Dota2 is the only moba game he has played for any serious length of time. And they have been evolving the one single game, not making sequels and charging people $60 every year for the same thing.

CoD comes out every year and has several shooter clones trying to be like it at the same time. Almost no one was tired of CoD the first 1-2 times they repeated the formula either. The sequel fatigue set in later.

This isn't exactly rocket science.

I don't see it as a double standard. I don't have any interest in either franchise, but the reasons for why CoD feels like such a tired and played out franchise don't really apply to DoTA.

As an avid SC2 player and watcher, while on the surface SC2 is similar to SC (Brood War to be exact), there are huge fundamental differences in terms of multiplayer. I won't get into that.

But then again I know what you mean, Brad can be a very frustrating person sometimes. However, you also have to keep in mind that there have been many shooters that have tried to copy CoD's brand of fast pace FPS. It also does not help that a new CoD has been coming out every year. As opposed to something like SC2 and Dota2 where a sequel to them won't come every year. In terms of Dota2 or more importantly LoL considering LoL created this enviable success, there has been a huge influx of similar games, you could argue that Brad will start to bash those types of games.

Still dumb juvenile reasons to dislike something if you ask me. I hate it because it makes to much money and everyone wants to be like him... like yeah well, people is getting they money worth, they wouldn't be buying it otherwise, dumb studios are trying to milk a popular gameplay, color me surprised! when have that happened before!?

@donpixel: I'm still not sure what your point is. What are you arguing? Brad is sick of military shooters and has said as much, his opinion. He likes DOTA 2, has liked Starcraft in the past. He questions how long Activision can keep up churning out a new COD a year. That's a valid question, history shows that most yearly franchises that aren't sports suffer from diminishing Returns at some point.

So what's the problem? He has never said that he doesn't understand why others still play COD, so where's the double standards?

I just don't think he was hating, just questing when is the tail end for these types of games considering how Activision ran guitar hero and tony hawk into the ground. It's a good question to ask.

Not really, he just got tired of the same shooter formula, people will eventually get tired of Dota clones too.

It's not juvenile to dislike something because you are tired of it doing the same thing over and over. It's a natural human reaction. Called boredom.

At this point COD is a sport, or e-sport, no different to DOTA so why would diminishing returns affect it? yeah it may have peak already, doesn't mean is going to die like tomorrow. As I said I don't even have a problem with "him" or anyone in the staff, I would have not been in this site for this long if that was the case.

Double standard refers to him applying criticism selectively based on personal preference, much of COD criticism can be applied to DOTA. Why can DOTA be a viable long term e-sport but call of duty somehow can't?

The difference is that Brad hasn't been playing DOTA for the last 10 years, seeing them release countless full price DOTA games with incremental updates. If that did happen I guarantee you'd hear the same kind of criticism.

You don't have to agree about CoD, but the reasons people feel that way about CoD just don't apply to DOTA.

Yes, but this on the same podcast where brad states his intentions to purchase a $35 cosmetic item. Granted the man has put hundreds of hours into the game but people also do the same for Call of Duty.

oh come on now, if Blizzard (or any company) could, they abso-fucking-lutely would release Starcraft (or their popular game) every year for $60.

Just so happens that they know it would be disastrous to do so in most cases.

@donpixel: First of all, COD will never be a big e-sport game because of the yearly releases, and because the devs never try to balance the game like that. But that's beside the point. No one says that COD will die tomorrow.

But what's the problem with him applying criticism based on personal taste in games? He doesn't like that kind of game anymore, loves DOTA. That's not double standards, that's just voicing a personal opinion about something. He doesn't say that he hopes COD dies tomorrow, he questions how long thet can keep a yearly release going. And him keeping on playing DOTA 2 has nothing to do with anything. If DOTA 2 was on a yearly release schedule you might've had a point, but that game will probably be out without a sequel for a decade.

Nothing about this is double standards.

I'm not sure about this man, these are games not movies. I've been playing chess for what it feels my whole life at this point, not sure if it is ever going to bore me.

So you've never been bored of any game ever? Just because they are designed to entertain does not mean everyone will inherently find every game entertaining. I love me some turn-based RPGs, but I know full well there are plenty that find them dull as hell.

And frankly neither CoD nor Dota are chess either :/

Stuff that survives and stands the test of time like chess or football is one in a million. Videogames overall haven't even existed long enough to be measurable on that sort of scale, never mind individual entries like Starcraft that's in decline, already plateaued CoD and the recently risen Dota.

(shit, personally i got bored of chess eventually too, not because i reached some sort of personal ceiling in it, i just like consuming new mechanics above all else in games, but that's me)

yeah of course I've been, hyperbole aside, I've been tired with Battlefield, I've been tired with COD... But I know that is my problem because I burn myself playing more than I should, doesn't mean the game "needs" to evolve and be "different" because It can no longer mantain my junkie-ness.

I just take a break, and it feels pretty good when I come back later on.

As I said, the problem is all about perception in the way these games are sold. It's all psychology. Maybe it shouldn't matter but it does. Valve knows this, they know we live in a world where people see a sign that says "Half Off" and they think it's better deal than "save 50%". And people misread 9.99 as nine dollars instead of basically being ten.

If you want to be where the players are and the newest things are in COD, then yeah you need to pony up that 60 bucks a year. It feels like you are forced to, even if you aren't really orced as you pointed out. But if you want to be a part of the conversation, you d need the newest title.

OTOH nobody is making Brad dump 35 bucks into DOTA on cosmetic items, that's completely optional. fwiw I've played more hours than he has (going off his dotabuff profile) and I've spent zero. To get the newest play experience in DOTA, to go where the zeitgeist is, he doesn't have to pay a dime. New Bloom Festival, Frostivus, Diretide the tournaments etc are all available to him anytime.

And keep in mind as well that Brad has only been playing MOBAs for about a year so it's still novel to him, he's probably been playing First Person Shooters on and off for close to 20. I think a little genre fatigue is certainly understandable.

How has no one posted a Rorie pick saying "You are the double standard".

People elect to buy a new Call of Duty every year. They are not scamming people or "bleeding" them. If people want to buy a new version of a game every year, that's their perogative. You are not obligated to purchase ANY game, sequel or not.

Because it's his personal taste and there has been like 2.5 million Call of Duty games.

I don't like how dismissive he was with Titanfall. I think Titanfall is trying a lot of things to evolve the traditional shooter, especially with the movement system and the introduction of some very risky gameplay mechanics, and that he should be more open minded to it.

That said, I think Brad was trying to make a point about how class shooters introduce a sort of behind-the-scenes alternative method of backing up your team without simply shooting people. In games like CoD you can do many things but all of them involve shooting other people. I don't think that makes one game more superior though, and it seemed like he was trying to take a swipe at games that Jeff likes because Jeff was dismissing PVZ:GW.

everyone's a hypocrite about something...

We're all individual with our own tastes but it would be good for Brad to be more open minded to what other people like, you either see him in the background falling asleep or asking why people like a certain game, or he's at the reigns of a Quick Look of the new EDF, half heartedly controlling the game and remarking how dull he finds it, it is possible to air your thoughts on something without being completely dismissive of it.

I enjoy watching the Dota streams because an engaged Brad is a fun Brad, lets hope he can open himself up to other genres.

Because modern military shootersyawwwwnzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

valve stamp of quality is the end of this discussion.

call of duty does not have

DOTA 2 is F2P and a whole new engine upgrade over the old that keeps getting new content, SC2 had many major changes as well as an all new -well made- campaign. I don't see the comparison to a genre that gets about 5 releases a year that cost $60 and all have a terrible campaign and basically the exact same multiplayer.

I don't think Brad's denying that some people like the current CoD formula, it's pretty clear that all the staff are aware of that, but you can't begin to take these games as equivalents. The DoTA series consists of two similar games released ten years apart with the second one being free-to-play, while the CoD series has pumped out eight games in six years, all of them sold at full price. Sure, you could not buy every single CoD that comes out, but by the same argument you could have not played the first DoTA and the second game would be an entirely new experience. Even if this wasn't the case, Brad obviously just likes one of those games more than the other, you can't argue with his subjective opinion.

@gamer_152: I would make the argument that there is obviously a lot more going on than simply left trigger/right trigger in first person shooters if you plan on winning. There is strategy involved, map knowledge, weapon proficiency, positioning, knowing where your opponents are going to be and how to best defend your capture points. CoD is certainly not completely brainless when it comes to coordinating with friends and winning a match. Just like DOTA isn't simply walking around and clicking a bunch. There is more to it than left mouse button to win.

Both have merits and you're free to play or not play either one. It's this fervent hate against CoD, that it's ruining the industry as a whole, that I never really understood. As far as I know, Call of Duty hasn't had offensively bad micro transactions yet unlike for instance Assassins Creed. As a person that enjoys a bit of AC multiplayer, the Abstergo credits model they introduced is downright gross. You win about 200 gold for playing a round moderately well, you want a cosmetic eye-patch for a character? That will be 6000 gold. You want this basic ability upgrade? You need to be 5th prestige - no worries, you can just buy it with credits though.

There isn't a double standard. Brad is tired of the standard FPS multiplayer experience. He wants to engage in a team based environment and, while that can certainly be found in shooters if you look hard enough, such experiences are readily available from the jump in other genres like MOBAs.

I don't think he dissed anyone who likes playing MP focused shooters, he just expressed his boredom as a result of the genre stagnating since CoD 4.

Brad is tired of playing those games but from my perspective his overall disdain for them has exceeded personal disinterest and turned conspicuous. I don't think it's about Brad not wanting to play those, he's capable of not wanting to play those games all on his own; it's about everyone else knowing that he's above playing those games. After all, they're just left-trigger right-trigger, that's all they are. If anyone said that Dota was was click-click-click he would get emotionally invested and start arguing and stop making sense pretty quickly. But it's okay because no one is going to defend a modern military FPS. Just like no one defended WW2 FPS games a decade ago.

@brodehouse:

Dota is just a dumbed down RTS with no base building, in which you only control one (hero) unit.

:D

I would still argue that you can reach a reduction point in COD as a left/right trigger game much more quickly than you can reduce Dota to a clicking around game. And I don't necessarily see why that's in some way a knock against COD. COD is a much simpler game as far as mechanics to keep track of go, and that's totally ok. And that's probably why COD is so approachable and popular in the first place.

@humanity said:

Well I'd be inclined to say that there's more depth to DoTA than CoD, but I didn't suggest for a second that CoD was brainless, lacks skill, or anything like that. I don't think CoD is "ruining the industry", and the effect it's having on the industry is really a different issue from double standards in regards to competitive games or how enjoyable those games are in comparable to others, but I do understand a lot of the strong criticism along these lines. The leading example of the industry is a franchise that has been based on dropping a moderate tweak of the previous game every sixth months and asking for another £40/$60 from the customer for it every time. Regardless of whatever crap other companies are pulling, CoD is both representative of and feeding into some very unhealthy practises in the industry and is being hugely rewarded for it. On a more personal level I feel a little uncomfortable about one of gaming's largest cultural icons in the last decade being a shallow glamorisation of the war on terror.

Honestly, I think the whole conversation was a way to lash out at Jeff who made him feel like shit for liking a game. I mean he choose Titanfall in that conversation for a reason. A game Jeff is really digging. I kinda wish they cut that conversation from the podcast, mainly because it made both of them sound like assholes.

I get where he's coming from. The average game of cod is running around shooting dudes, and the only real variety comes from which gun you use to shoot dudes with. Class/hero based games, especially in dota where there's lots of different types and playstyles, mean an huge amount of variation depending on the composition of your team. As oppose to 10 guys running around with the same machine guns. The same is true, to an extent, for starcraft - after a while having only 3 races to pick from can get tiresome - but expansions and patch updates address this to keep things interesting.

At the end of the day it's personal preference. Like Brad and Drew, i've spent a lot of time shooting virtual guns and I'm now looking for something more innovative and experimental.

Why the fuck is everyone arguing about this double standard bullshit? It's getting seriously annoying. Why can't you all just accept that some people don't like military shooters, and then some people don't like strategy games? Do you really care that much about what other people play, and pay for?

I don't think the same line of reasoning should be applied to a franchise that has a new installment every 10 years in a genre (rts) that's almost abandoned compared to a franchise with annual releases in genre that completely saturated.

The one thing i absolutely hate about how Brad talks and thinks about Dota 2 all the time is that it has seemingly become his only point of reference for EVERYTHING and that is so stupid. It really seems like he is incapable of thinking about game mechanics in any other terms than how he could somehow boil it down to something that also happens in Dota.

Because COD doesn't stay the same, they release a "new" game every year and expect you to pay full price for it every year. DOTA 3 hasn't been (and probably won't be) announced, and Starcraft II got an expansion that was not full price after 3 years.

This game is really eating his soul isn't it? Like how he mentions he's 8/10 excited about dark souls 2 and the only thing that's 10/10 on his most enticipated list is his next game of DOTA. Followed up by ''I wish I was kinding''.

I think it's more that his argument consisted of "all you do is kill people". When that's the entire objective of Dota and Starcraft. When you boil any game down to it's base objective, of course it seems boring.

Remember when Patrick got all the hate on the site? Now that role has shifted to Brad. Lay off him man. This community is going in the gutter I swear.

Well PVZ:GW is pretty garbage.

[quote]This game is really eating his soul isn't it? Like how he mentions he's 8/10 excited about dark souls 2 and the only thing that's 10/10 on his most enticipated list is his next game of DOTA. Followed up by ''I wish I was kinding''.[/quote]

Don't get into DOTA. That's what it does to people D: