Fallout 4 - Did I miss something?

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jazzyc

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Edited By jazzyc

A few nights ago I had a realisation, that despite seemingly being close to the end of the main story of Fallout 4, I just had no desire to finish it. And I don't mean in a good way either. I've played some games and had no desire to finish it because I didn't want it to end. This is different, this is me having no desire to play because I don't find it good. Or rather, there is something lacking and it hasn't held my attention.

The general feeling is that the game is lacking. The story is lacking too but I can hardly say 3 or New Vegas had compelling main story. It's the world that is missing something, and (I think) how you interact with that world that is the biggest failing point.

The area known as the Commonwealth is filled with masses of landmarks, as you would expect from any open-world game these days. Many of these look impressive, or at least intriguing when you come across them. But, too many times you wonder in, clear out a bunch of ghouls or raiders, then pick up some loot. If you are lucky you pick up some interesting back story to the place. Take University Point. Previously a university (duh) it was re-settled after the bombs fell and became a thriving little community. One of the community members discovered notes regarding the research that was being done at the university before the bombs fell. Looking to sell this research, news reached the Institute who wanted the research. An escalation of events led to the Institute wiping out the community.

Sounds great, but you gleam all this from notes left behind. Your only interaction in the area is clearing out the remaining enemies, looting what stuff has been left, and uncovering this past. What would have been far more engrossing is being there to witness it. Maybe even influence the outcome. As with all of Fallout 4, the life of the world is contained within the notes and logs left behind. Rarely do you see anything interesting happen.

It's hard to describe the problem. Perhaps it comes down to expectation? Fallout 3 and New Vegas created a world. I would argue New Vegas did this more so, but that is probably a point of debate for many people. Fallout 4 is just a chunk of land. It still serves as a game, it has a story, solid controls and a world you can interact with. But none of it compels you further in. None of it says this is what gaming is about. You have an illusion of freewill in what you do, but too often you hit against the sides of the straight and narrow it is forcing you down. It's like they streamlined their previous games, to make them more accessible and to enhance what they considered to be their strong attributes. Yet, in doing so, they lost what made you play the game to conclusion.

My experience with the Fallout franchise has never been the compulsion to play the main story. It has been about creating a character and seeing what they find. Our exploration of the world moulding the character I began to shape at the beginning of the game. Fallout 4 kind of misses that. Through limited dialogue choices (only 4 at a time) your conversation always seems to go roughly the same way. The only difference being how much you're going to get paid to complete the quest. Customisation of the character through skill points, perks and SPECIAL points have been reduced to a solely choosing a perk each time you level up. (Yes, I know, you can up your SPECIAL points if you wish instead.)

Within the world your ways of dealing with a situation are simple. Talk your way out of it or shoot your way out of it. No more unique dialogue based on your Science/Repair/Gun skills, etc. It reduces any desire for me to play again to see what other possibilities there are. That is, if I finish it once.

Allow me an example of where the game falls down. During the main quest you are sent to find/rescue someone from a Vault. After being left with little choice but to murder everyone I see (stealth is not a great mechanic in this game) I reach the conclusion. My rescue target is stuck behind a sealed door, being threatened by some tough guy. Listening to the conversation I realise the tough guy is getting worried by something my target says, so he leaves to find out the truth. I decide to hide and let him leave, rather than kill him. He leaves and I then free my target. We both then head out to leave. We leave that immediate area and go through a small corridor, only to find our tough guy friend just standing there. This didn't seem purposeful. He didn't appear to have reached his boss, or had some epiphany that my now companion was just scaring him. No, the game basically doesn't appear to have been built to expect me to avoid conflict. His path just ends there. The game fully expects you to kill him. Kill him or you essentially just break the game a little.

I think this is fundamentally what has lost it for me in Fallout 4. A lack of choice. Not just in story beats, but in game style too. This is no longer an RPG, this is just a shooter with RPG elements tacked on. The game fully expects you to entire each and every location and annihilate everything. Stealth isn't a means to avoid conflict and reach your objective. Stealth is just a mechanic to delay the inevitable fight until you are in a position to score some extra critical hits. I hasten to add that even with good stealth perks, and equipment, the idea of hiding in the shadows is nothing but wishful dream.

The lack of choice doesn't end there. New Vegas had groups a plenty to side with. Just take the opening couple of areas. From almost the get go you decide the fate of Goodsprings, either rising up to defend it, or taking it over and killing everyone. Then in Primm, when they're looking for a new Sheriff you can either enlist the help of the NCR, use your science skill to reprogram a robot to be sheriff, or use either your wits/caps or goodwill (depending on who you sided with in Goodsprings) to infiltrate the now overrun prison and recruit an ex-sheriff to run the town. In Fallout 4 the best I've been able to do is decide whether or not to kill someone, and ultimately which of the 3 (arguably 4) main factions I want to side with.

Ultimately what happens in Goodsprings and Primm does little in the grand scheme of the plot and how the rest of the game plays out. But, it crafts the world. Your world. You were involved and now that world is that much more personal to you. You yourself decided their immediate fates and helped craft how the world will look when you leave it. Fallout 4 is lacking in this area. Your actions don't seem to shape anything. You might kill a few extra people and get another companion to add to your list, but nothing seems to have any impact. The game comes close, but never really makes it stick. Take Vault 81. At some point in there you can decide the fate of a child.

In conclusion perhaps the game is a victim of it's own success? With Fallout 3 (and I guess Oblivion), Bethesda defined what an open-world RPG should be considered as. Perhaps it shouldn't be considered an RPG any more? Changing tack and calling it a shooter would go some way to manage expectation, that is if they continue on this path of limited customisation. That part of the game is solid, but as I've probably eluded to, that isn't the reason I go into these games. But, by classing it as a shooter I perhaps wouldn't have considered the rest of the game as lacking. The genre RPG brings weight with it. When RPG is mentioned I expect customisation, I expect choice. For me those go hand in hand with what RPG means. I'm that character, I decide what to do. The game shouldn't be penning me in, making it so obvious that I'm following this path. I like to go off the beaten path, see what happens if I do something potentially unexpected. Kill Mr. House? Well, he hasn't really done anything wrong to me, but ok. Kill those Ghouls that want to get into Tenpenny Towers? You did try and get me to blow up MegaTon and your residents all seem a bit prickish, but what the heck. Fallout 4? This strange cult at the amphitheatre are a strange lot, lets go along with it and see if I can't get something interesting out of it. Oh, you can't? I can sign up then basically realise it is a scam and either threaten them or resort to violence. No feigning ignorance or joining up?

Maybe I've just hit the nail on the head? I don't like this game because it doesn't allow me to act out what I want. Instead Fallout 4 has this predetermined idea of what you will do. You may think you want to do x and y, but we know better and you want to do z. I'm going to keep hitting walls and breaking immersion whenever I try to play this as my character, rather than the character the game has already cooked up for me.

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OurSin_360

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I stopped playing like 40hours in and no where close to done having lost full interest. Only thing kept me going that long were mods and tweaking performance.

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Drekly

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I dunno man, you say it didn't hold your attention but you're almost finished with the story. Either you went fast through the story and dodged the side-quests (bad idea) or you did them and clocked up quite a few hours in a game you claim you don't like. I don't play games that I do not like, or attempt to finish them in the first place.

I completely agree with you that this game is lacking, but my main complaint when finishing the game was that it didn't give me the same feeling that Fallout 3 gave me. I thought the dialogue choices were terrible, and having chance based persuasion options, along with the ability to save during conversations made it way too easy to exploit. Don't get me wrong, normally I wouldn't do that, but the temptation for Fallout 4 is too strong when some of those choices can have such a massive effect on the game going forward.

And the ending? I actually turned to my wife and asked if that was the end cut-scene and she nodded. My ending seemed so utterly generic that all of my choices seemed pointless. I just quit and didn't want to go back in anytime soon.

There are definitely things to love about Fallout 4 though. Presentation is exactly what I wanted from Fallout 3. I used to get home from work, put some headphones on and just get lost in the music and visuals. Companions like Nick and Curie were awesome, like really awesome. I'd play an entire DLC revolving around Nick Valentine. I loved his storyline and wished it went on for way longer.

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peacebrother

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#3  Edited By peacebrother

I played 20 something hours, barely touched the story, and mostly spent time exploring. I played a lot of every Bethesda game since Morrowind, and I think I'm hitting a wall now. Unless there's drastic changes to the formula, I'm done.

Fallout 4 felt like it was telling me my only choice was "Use Violence" or "Don't do this quest". It got real tiring once I realized there's actually no player independence in this game.

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edgaras1103

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#4  Edited By edgaras1103

I played for 50 hours or so, stopped somewhere after brotherhood of Steel showed up in the sky and just uninstalled the game. I have been spoiled by another open world rpg last year. The full fallout 4 experience was very underwhelming.

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jazzyc

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I stopped playing like 40hours in and no where close to done having lost full interest. Only thing kept me going that long were mods and tweaking performance.

Yes, the mods kept me going a little longer than I would have.

@drekly said:

I dunno man, you say it didn't hold your attention but you're almost finished with the story. Either you went fast through the story and dodged the side-quests (bad idea) or you did them and clocked up quite a few hours in a game you claim you don't like. I don't play games that I do not like, or attempt to finish them in the first place.

There are definitely things to love about Fallout 4 though. Presentation is exactly what I wanted from Fallout 3. I used to get home from work, put some headphones on and just get lost in the music and visuals. Companions like Nick and Curie were awesome, like really awesome. I'd play an entire DLC revolving around Nick Valentine. I loved his storyline and wished it went on for way longer.

In hindsight I would say I should have stopped earlier. But, I kept going in the hopes that there was something on the horizon, be it some location I haven't found or a story point. I usually enjoy uncovering the other Vaults, but even here I found them lacking.
That being said, maybe you are right. Maybe there was something in there that kept me going. Taking into account times I left it on, Steam has me clocking around 75hrs. But I can't think what it was that kept me going. Maybe it was that I had no other games that compelled me into starting them, and I had a little extra free time than usual? Hard to say, but it's probably a mix of that and it was when "everyone" was talking about it and I felt that something good must be in there and I will find it.
I decided to go with Piper, as my main companion. Given she eludes to being this pariah due to being a "real" journalist, I thought there would be more there. There wasn't.

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bybeach

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I'm a bit different. I loved the game, except towards the end you could see Make-a-Choice was coming up. I didn't want to do that. One choice seemed intelligent, but another was where my loyalty lied. Except I didn't even want to get tied down with it either. Three times I did a mission, got told that now I was doing more for that faction, and I just wanted more time for others and for free roam especially.

Eventually I will do something, and get ready for the dlc.

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mathj

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#8  Edited By mathj

listen. fallout 4's story is nothing to admire or relish. fallout is much more to me than the main story. its lackluster. but i can always pick it up and discover new locations, new offbeat side missions, and characters that are oddballs. it is awesome in terms of discovery.

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Substance_D

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#9  Edited By Substance_D

Nope, you didn't. Fallout 4 is overhyped. As much as I love the immersion and story in some Bethesda games, I think pretty much all their games are overhyped because they're designed to appeal to as wide of an audience as possible, so you get a rabid fandom surrounding any of their games due to the size of the community.

I'd recommend something like Pillars of Eternity or Divinity: Original Sin if you care about storytelling in RPGs. Dark Souls if you care more about immersion and gameplay. Also, pretty much any game Bioware has made is better than Bethesda games, in my opinion. Sure, they've made a few bad ones, but I can still remember lines and scenes from Mass Effect 2 despite playing it years ago. I'd be hard pressed to remember any important story detail from a Bethesda game.

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The_Nubster

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Your complaints about being unable to interact with the world are exactly why I can't stand FO3's story, and even Skyrim. People like to tout how immersive and well-realized their worlds are, but it all boils down to skeletons huddled together near a gun and a note on a computer somewhere nearby. You kill everyone in the building, loot the "story" from the skeletons, and go on your way. That isn't environmental storytelling; hell, it isn't even storytelling. It's lazy. All of the most interesting stuff in that game is just jotted down by some long-dead scavenger and it's a mind-numbing way to interact with that world. Shoot raiders, loot corpses, read terminal. Shoot raiders, loot corpses, read note. Shoot raiders, loot corpses, take key from corpse you looted to go into basement area, shoot raiders, loot corpses, read terminal.

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mike

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I got about 3 hours in and quit and didn't look back and probably never will. I have come to realize that I simply don't like Fallout games anymore.

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thomasnash

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Not to just pile on again, but I think the moment that really made me abandon the main story was that quest where you have to follow kellogg. Just walking between 4 different points to get a new arrow on the compass, without feeling like anything had been placed along the route to keep it interesting. Just walking for 5 minutes between locations so I can look at a piece of red fabric on a fence.

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McHampton

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#13  Edited By McHampton

I never cared much for the main story in these games but I was disappointed by the settlements that fill the world. They are all just build-your-own with no interesting places so far. Anyone remember the Republic of Dave? Or Oasis? Or that weird place with the super hero and super villain fighting each other?

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Humanity

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When I was installing Superhot recently I looked over my Fallout 4 install and to my amazement saw Steam tally up my total playtime at about 30hrs. I barely remember anything I did in those 30hrs apart from wonder around and maybe do a few Vault questlines.

I too feel absolutely no urge to continue or find out what happens next from the limited amount of main storyline I saw up to this point. Especially since much like previous Bethesda games, there is very little spectacle to any of it and most scripted events feel like something you'd find cobbled together in a mod by some fans rather than a triple A high budget game ostensibly years in the making.

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Ungodly

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I only played about four hours of Metal Gear Solid 5, and then just lost all interest. Not gonna go back either. Just stopped playing, and found my fun elsewhere. Do I feel the need to describe to everyone about what it was I didn't dig in MGS5? No.

I like Fallout 4, and I think it's rad. Sorry you didn't enjoy it.

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jazzyc

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Based on that last post I think I should clarify that this was intended as a blog post. I appreciate all the replies (especially to my first post on the site). But, I feel I should apologise to those who found it to wordy and elaborate for a forum post.

I wasn't really paying attention when I made my first blog post and didn't realise I was also posting it to the forum.

I want to reply to all the posts so far, and I will. And for all those who have added to the thread constructively, whether you agree with my points or not, thank-you.

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Tennmuerti

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I've postulated in the past that I have stopped considering Bethesda games as RPGs at Skyrim.

The choice in their open world games has been on a downward spiral for a long time now, becoming less and less significant with each game both from a narrative perspective and gameplay wise. That said I still liked Skyrim a lot because of it's other draws, actually i think that me stopping to think of it as an RPG helped immensely with that and I enjoyed it more as I stopped criticizing it's rpg elements as much. However no such luck with Fallout 4 still, there was just too much other stuff to drag it down, not just the lack of choice, it's list of sins in my mental notepad is phenomenal. So yea like others have said you didn't miss anything.

PS: don't worry about the blog thing, that's kind of it's intended purpose to be surfaced on the forum, and big wordy posts are only a plus if there is a substance in them

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korwin

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I'm with you, I spent a large amount of time with it but I have zero desire to finish the main story quest. You just get railroaded down some very narrow shooty bang bang quest paths, it felt like a complete loss of agency in a series that is established on the very idea of it.

It's the worst Fallout game with the exception of Brotherhood of Steel.

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NeverGameOver

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I loved FO3, NV, and Skyrim but Fallout 4 has some MAJOR problems, and while some of them were there in previous games, many were not. The writing in Fallout 4 is abysmal and the player agency just feels nonexistent at times. I forced myself to slog through the story before GOTY time, and by the end, I was so mad at the writers that I just decided to kill everyone.

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Anonymous_Jesse

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I felt the same.

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Hotspray

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The writing is objectively poor, and most of the RPG mechanics and options were gutted. It plays like a middle of the road FPS with a clunky health recovery and inventory management system. There's the looting and base building, but both are well below par in terms of design and execution.

The worldbuilding and worldstate in particular are so hilariously mismanaged by Bethesda's writing staff that I feel like the IP is in need of a reboot. Nothing in the game makes sense. No places, characters, plotlines, motivations, timelines, etc. Nothing makes any sense at all.

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paulmako

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The game has some problems. But I am still enjoying the hell out of it.

I am on by second playthrough and I've been spending my time differently. Although it sucks that there aren't as many ways to resolve quests and dialogue, there is still the basic freedom of walking around, exploring and deciding what you are going to do next. That's enough for me.

I am also really hyped for the DLC. I see myself playing this game for a long time. And this is on PS4, so I'm not even getting the graphically superior version.

I agree with most of the criticism but I still love it.

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sparky_buzzsaw

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#24  Edited By sparky_buzzsaw

I think the OP nailed it with University Point as being emblematic of 4's problems as a whole. Too little of actual note happens to the player character, and instead, you're stuck hearing about far more interesting conflicts in the past - and even those interesting tidbits are fewer and less interesting than in 3 or NV. I don't mind dredging up old stories from the unvierse's past - in fact, that stuff's neat - but a better story for the player as a whole is a necessity for any future game in the series.

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dancinginfernal

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University Point was so disappointing, I actually stopped playing immediately after I ran through the area. It felt like it was telling a more interesting story than the one written for the main plot. By the end I wanted to meet the characters, talk to them, help them, or even just find their corpses or something, but nope, they don't even give you that much. Just a stupid laser pistol that seemed unique until relatively soon after I started finding guns with the same gimmick drop from legendary enemies which made the whole damn thing feel fucking pointless.

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Justin258

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I recently restarted Fallout 4 after giving up fifteen hours in the first time around. A combination of everything you've mentioned and open world fatigue just caused me to put it down. A week or so ago, I restarted it with some mods, some time away from open worlds, and tempered expectations, and I am enjoying it a lot more now.

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thomasnash

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Your complaints about being unable to interact with the world are exactly why I can't stand FO3's story, and even Skyrim. People like to tout how immersive and well-realized their worlds are, but it all boils down to skeletons huddled together near a gun and a note on a computer somewhere nearby. You kill everyone in the building, loot the "story" from the skeletons, and go on your way. That isn't environmental storytelling; hell, it isn't even storytelling. It's lazy. All of the most interesting stuff in that game is just jotted down by some long-dead scavenger and it's a mind-numbing way to interact with that world. Shoot raiders, loot corpses, read terminal. Shoot raiders, loot corpses, read note. Shoot raiders, loot corpses, take key from corpse you looted to go into basement area, shoot raiders, loot corpses, read terminal.

The worst thing about their whole "environmental" stories is that they are still doing the same stuff long past the point where it makes sense. They seem so wedded to this ideal of trying to make us see and feel the tragedy of the nuclear war, but never stop to ask whether it's feasible that two pre-war skeletons would still be untouched 100 years after the bombs dropped, when society is already fairly rebuilt. To say nothing of the amount of food left in a supermarket 20 feet away from a raider base.

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Hotspray

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@thomasnash: Exactly. For all the credit fans give Bethesda with regard to ambient stories, the truth is that almost every one of them is contrived and nonsensical. The writing is not good. Across the board. It's almost childlike.

"I MADE THIS SKELETON LAY NEXT TO ANOTHER SKELETON AND PUT RAT POISON NEXT TO THE BED BECAUSE THEY USED RAT POISON TO KILL THEMSELVES. I'M SAYING DEEP SHIT ABOUT THE HUMAN EXPERIENCE."

Meanwhile it's been 200 years and there is no reason for anything in that scene to remain. It's just there because somebody on team Bethesda thought "Wow that would really be heavy if we did that."

The fiction is god awful, and anybody who thinks otherwise simply isn't paying attention.

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paulmako

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#29  Edited By paulmako

@hotspray: I don't think the people who place skeletons in Bethesda games are constantly aiming for it to be 'deep and meaningful'.

I certainly don't see it as them trying to make grand statements about the human experience. More an opportunity to add an extra detail here and there.

It's far from perfect, but I also think it's unfair to accuse people who don't think it's awful of 'not paying attention'. I wish they had done some things differently with the writing but I still find things to enjoy in it.

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thomasnash

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@paulmako said:

@hotspray: I don't think the people who place skeletons in Bethesda games are constantly aiming for it to be'deep and meaningful'.

I certainly don't see it as them trying to make grand statements about the human experience. More an opportunity to add an extra detail here and there.

It's far from perfect, but I also think it's unfair to accuse people who don't think it's awful of 'not paying attention'. I wish they had done some things differently with the writing but I still find things to enjoy in it.

They definitely are reaching for emotional heft, though, although I won't make any claims as to whether or not that works. That (some of) these moments don't make sense within the wider narrative context doesn't mean they fail to do that automatically.

I found things like that were kind of effective for me in FO3, but like any narrative trick it loses its impact the second time around. In a weird way, FO3 felt like a much more drab and disconnected sort of place so it didn't stick out to me much then. Maybe I just didn't think of it, or maybe I was less disposed to be critical.

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Trilogy

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#31  Edited By Trilogy

These threads always devolve into people who generally hate bethesda games venting their frustrations.

"FUCK THESE GAMES THEYRE BAD OK? IF YOU LIKE THEM YOU'RE WRONG AND NOT PAYING ATTENTION!!!"