#1 Posted by golguin (3842 posts) -

In light of XCOM's victory and placement among a bunch of peoples' GOTY 2012 list are we going to see new life in this dying genre? I've been playing SRPG games for a while (Final Fantasy Tactics on the PS1 was my first), but the vast majority of them have been made by Japanese developers. The titles that come out are generally ignored by most people, but maybe Western developers can provide the hooks needed to get the XCOM crowd.

If you played XCOM and loved the game are you looking for more games in the genre or do you simply want more XCOM?

#2 Posted by Video_Game_King (35978 posts) -

Wait, does XCOM have RPG elements I'm not aware of?

#3 Posted by dungbootle (2457 posts) -

@Video_Game_King said:

Wait, does XCOM have RPG elements I'm not aware of?

Your dudes have stats that improve and persist across missions, so I suppose. Did you play it?

#4 Posted by Video_Game_King (35978 posts) -

@dungbootle said:

Did you play it?

No. That would certainly explain why I wasn't aware of them.

#5 Posted by A_Cute_Squirtle (679 posts) -

I'm confused...did Fire Emblem die at any point?

#6 Posted by dungbootle (2457 posts) -

@Video_Game_King: Well, to answer your question: yes. XCOM is a strategy RPG.

#7 Posted by Marz (5642 posts) -

I'd rather have another Final Fantasy Tactics(non handheld) than more Xcom.  

#8 Posted by Video_Game_King (35978 posts) -

@A_Cute_Squirtle said:

I'm confused...did Fire Emblem die at any point?

Yes. *sniffle*

#9 Posted by Christoffer (1756 posts) -

If Jagged Alliance made a (serious) comeback, Id' be happy. Other than that, I'd need to hear some more good examples of old tactical RPG's.

#10 Posted by believer258 (11628 posts) -

I thought X-Com was turn-based strategy and, say, Dragon Age Origins was more tactical RPG?

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#11 Posted by golguin (3842 posts) -

@believer258 said:

I thought X-Com was turn-based strategy and, say, Dragon Age Origins was more tactical RPG?

I've never played Dragon Age Origins so I don't know how the "tactical" label would apply, but I'm talking about games like Final Fantasy Tactics, Tactics Ogre, Disgaea, and Devil Survivor.

#12 Posted by Galiant (2178 posts) -

I just want more XCOM!

#13 Posted by Karkarov (2980 posts) -

These games never left, just they weren't getting really refined and had become obscenely niche. The problem with Japanese Strategy RPG's like Fire Emblem is they are catered to the Japanese on every level. Sure there are plenty of people outside Japan that may love it (I have played my fair share) but it is never going to be main stream.

XCom EU simply had more appeal for western audiences, was tons less grindy, and easier to simply sit down and play. It doesn't take a genius to figure out why people who would never play Disgaea might have picked up and enjoyed XCom.

#14 Posted by Mayu_Zane (606 posts) -

Game developers tend to try and copy successful games. I wouldn't be surprised if in a couple of years (or less) some other developer tries to make an XCOM-ish game. However, I am not sure of how successful XCOM: EU is. Have we got any sales data?

#15 Posted by Fredchuckdave (5325 posts) -

@believer258: Tactical RPG is traditionally applied to JRPGs in the mold of FFT and Tactics Ogre; XCOM is just one of those made by a western developer with bugs and streamlining. Turn Based Strategy is something like the map phase of the Total War games, Civilization, King's Bounty or Heroes of Might and Magic. Even though they're real time I'd also classify most Paradox games in a similar category.

#16 Posted by BeachThunder (11689 posts) -
#17 Edited by Fredchuckdave (5325 posts) -

There might be more XCOMs and games like them in the future but ultimately you're still going to have to deal with the fatigue in Tactical RPGs since they are pretty repetitive even if there's a lot going on (or not much going on like XCOM) and primarily the story of these games is what keeps them interesting long term. The exception is on portable consoles but Tactical RPGs are all over the damn place there and if you like Tactical RPGs then its a disservice to yourself to not have a PSP especially.

#18 Posted by Animasta (14648 posts) -

Devil Survivor 2 goddamnit

no one played that game apparently :/

(it's less strategic and more RPG but whatever)

#19 Posted by Viking_Funeral (1731 posts) -

XCOM is a tactics game with RPG elements.

Final Fantasy Tactics & Fire Emblem are Tactical RPGs. (Though for some reason they are abbreviated as SRPGs. Probably a convenience issue.)

Strategy RPGs are something more like Romance of the Three Kingdoms or Elemental. Strategy means broad... like moving division across entire fields of battle instead of moving individual units on one field.

I also sincerely doubt that we'll see a massive resurgence. There are already people making games like this, and they may get funded a little better in the near future, but I doubt the big guys want to gamble on something that can be so esoteric, especially with the cost of AAA game development these days.

#20 Posted by kalibr (120 posts) -

In terms of turn based strategy games there are gonna be a good amount released every year and quite a few people who enjoy them immensely. I think the real question is how many of those will integrate RPG elements that seem to be jammed into every game released nowadays. Depending on how far turn based strat games embrace their RPG-style progression systems will determine what the Strategy RPG genre will look like. Who knows maybe 2013 will be the year of SRPG influence just like how 2012 brought roguelike themes into varied games.

#21 Edited by Chop (1994 posts) -

XCOM isn't anything like a grid based rpg and thank god for that.

Grinding will never come back. I hope.

#22 Posted by Grimhild (721 posts) -

@Christoffer said:

If Jagged Alliance made a (serious) comeback, Id' be happy. Other than that, I'd need to hear some more good examples of old tactical RPG's.

@BeachThunder said:

Only if Omerta is good...

JA2.exe will never not be on my PC. Also excited to see more of Omerta. Hopefully it's a nice hybrid of the Xcom reboot and "Gangsters 1/2," sans the jankiness.

I've been hoping for the same thing (linking because there's some other good suggestions from other Duders to scratch the itch for a comparatively under-populated genre.)

#23 Edited by Sanity (1891 posts) -

Xcom really isin't the same thing but i dont think the genre ever left to be honest. Between Kings Bounty, HOMM, and the crap ton of them on handhelds id say they still get there due. Also, Fallen Enchantress came out this year and has a lot in common while also being a 4X style game.

#24 Posted by TobbRobb (4579 posts) -

I'm not sure it ever left. And I know there were a bunch out this year. So either they are already back or they never left.

#25 Posted by Jokers_Wild (208 posts) -

@Video_Game_King said:

@A_Cute_Squirtle said:

I'm confused...did Fire Emblem die at any point?

Yes. *sniffle*

Fire Emblem: Awakening is coming out in February

#26 Posted by CptBedlam (4449 posts) -

When you mention X-Com, I think you mean "turn-based strategy games" rather than "srpg". But yeah, I want turn-based strategy games to make a comeback. Until then I do what every other fan of the genre does: play JA2 over and over again.

#27 Posted by Little_Socrates (5675 posts) -

I dunno, but I don't expect to be able to beat any of them any time soon. If I see a groundswell of them returning, I guess I'll grit my teeth and bang my head on one of them until I can start to understand these games.

If you have any suggestions that are more accessible than Fire Emblem for GBA and XCOM: Enemy Unknown, that'd be greatly appreciated.

#28 Edited by Fredchuckdave (5325 posts) -

@Little_Socrates: Jeanne D'arc isn't too bad on the denseness front; no grinding and fun but not particularly challenging up until the last boss (who's a gimmicky fight much like many other Tactical RPGs)

#29 Edited by StarvingGamer (7985 posts) -

No.

Tactical RPG's peaked with FFT and have been in steady decline ever since. X-Com is an anomaly and not indicative of an overall climate change. There are likely to be a few copycat cash-grabs given the oodles of GotY recognition Firaxis is getting, but those are going to make the situation worse.

#30 Posted by Video_Game_King (35978 posts) -

@Jokers_Wild said:

@Video_Game_King said:

@A_Cute_Squirtle said:

I'm confused...did Fire Emblem die at any point?

Yes. *sniffle*

Fire Emblem: Awakening is coming out in February

I know. That makes Fire Emblem Jesus, and this makes it Double Jesus.

#31 Posted by golguin (3842 posts) -

@StarvingGamer said:

No.

Tactical RPG's peaked with FFT and have been in steady decline ever since. X-Com is an anomaly and not indicative of an overall climate change. There are likely to be a few copycat cash-grabs given the oodles of GotY recognition Firaxis is getting, but those are going to make the situation worse.

I'm not sure how playstation plus works, but I know that the PSP version of Final Fantasy Tactics was up there at one point for free. I don't know how long games stay free or if you have to keep your membership active to access free games, but it's crazy to think people didn't just grab that up when they had the chance.

#32 Posted by TopSteer (636 posts) -

@Little_Socrates said:

I dunno, but I don't expect to be able to beat any of them any time soon. If I see a groundswell of them returning, I guess I'll grit my teeth and bang my head on one of them until I can start to understand these games.

If you have any suggestions that are more accessible than Fire Emblem for GBA and XCOM: Enemy Unknown, that'd be greatly appreciated.

If you're willing to play older games the Shining Force series is pretty accessible. The first game is pretty hard but the GBA remake is easier if you're worried about difficulty. I consider Shining Force II to be the best SRPG ever and it's probably the most accessible in the series. The Game Gear and Sega CD versions while good, took out the exploration so you just fought battle after battle, separated by a camp screen, which is how most of these games are actually. I prefer the mix of standard RPG exploration and SRPG battles so most of my recommendations would be of that nature.

#33 Posted by Little_Socrates (5675 posts) -

@TopSteer: Very much willing to play older games. But I don't have a Game Gear or Sega CD, so I'd have to find a way to port/emulate those versions to play them. Are the Genesis versions of those first two games all right? I have that Genesis Collection for the 360 that has those on there.

@Fredchuckdave: That actually looks pretty neat! PSP is a pretty weak platform for me, though. I'll consider that one, for sure, when I get some funds.

#34 Posted by Clonedzero (4091 posts) -

people gotta stop calling anything with "rpg elements" RPGs. because RPG as a genre is so vague and loose at this point, people could make arguments that call of duty is a damn RPG.

plus, almost everything has RPG elements these days, and thats a great thing. meshing together genres to improve them is a great thing for the industry. i mean hell i can't think of a shooter where you don't rank up and get unlocks, the last one i played with no real unlocks was gears 3, and even that had ranks and weaponskin unlocks.

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#35 Posted by Hailinel (23856 posts) -

@StarvingGamer said:

No.

Tactical RPG's peaked with FFT and have been in steady decline ever since.

You're crazy.

The genre has had its ups and downs, for sure, but there have always been games that explore different facets of the genre. There are the Disgaea-style grind-happy games that focus on ludicrous stat growth (with an equally ludicrous sense of humor to back it up), the Fire Emblem series, which remains as hardcore as they come despite certain additions to recent games designed to make them more accessible, games that, as Animasta said, focus less on strategy and more on the RPG side like Devil Survivor 2, and games that focus more heavily on the strategy side like the new XCOM.

The genre is hardly in decline.

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#36 Posted by AlexW00d (6180 posts) -

Men of War is tactical as fuck, more so than Xcom tbh.

#37 Posted by TopSteer (636 posts) -

@Little_Socrates: Yeah, I have that Genesis collection as well and they're great on there. They're on Steam too and on sale for $1.50 a piece.

It's a shame it's not easier to get a hold of the Shining games on the Game Gear and Sega CD but they're pretty easy to emulate.

#38 Posted by Little_Socrates (5675 posts) -

@AlexW00d said:

Men of War is tactical as fuck, more so than Xcom tbh.

Do not trust this person. I have seen hours of the newest Men of War, being Men of War: Condemned Heroes. That game is drop-dead atrocious. There might be good Men of War games, but having lived with someone tasked with reviewing the game, it is not good.

#39 Posted by DeF (4799 posts) -

@A_Cute_Squirtle said:

I'm confused...did Fire Emblem die at any point?

Games on Nintendo handhelds don't exist according to the internet :-)

#40 Edited by StarvingGamer (7985 posts) -

@Hailinel said:

@StarvingGamer said:

No.

Tactical RPG's peaked with FFT and have been in steady decline ever since.

You're crazy.

The genre has had its ups and downs, for sure, but there have always been games that explore different facets of the genre. There are the Disgaea-style grind-happy games that focus on ludicrous stat growth (with an equally ludicrous sense of humor to back it up), the Fire Emblem series, which remains as hardcore as they come despite certain additions to recent games designed to make them more accessible, games that, as Animasta said, focus less on strategy and more on the RPG side like Devil Survivor 2, and games that focus more heavily on the strategy side like the new XCOM.

The genre is hardly in decline.

Not in creativity or (arguably) quality but in popularity. It's a matter of scale, I suppose. While the audience for Tactical RPG's hasn't necessarily shrunk, the size of the industry has grown by magnitudes since the release of FFT. Because of this, they are becoming more and more niche meaning smaller and smaller budgets, relatively speaking. At the time FFT was not just a quality TRPG but a quality game standing toe-to-toe with the most popular games at the time. Nowadays TRPG's have been relegated to the corners of the enthusiast community, squeaking by on handhelds where significantly lower production-values are the norm. The last attempt at a full-scale modern TRPG was Valkyria Chronicles and that was brutally rebuffed by the community based on its poor sales.

#41 Posted by Slag (3989 posts) -

I certainly they come back more to the primetime

I'd love to see more Western takes on this awesome genre

#42 Posted by AlexW00d (6180 posts) -

@Little_Socrates said:

@AlexW00d said:

Men of War is tactical as fuck, more so than Xcom tbh.

Do not trust this person. I have seen hours of the newest Men of War, being Men of War: Condemned Heroes. That game is drop-dead atrocious. There might be good Men of War games, but having lived with someone tasked with reviewing the game, it is not good.

Try playing one instead of going on some dude's opinion instead. Or read about them from people who you may 'trust' more than me. Or, don't be a cunt, whichever you prefer.

#43 Posted by Little_Socrates (5675 posts) -

@AlexW00d said:

@Little_Socrates said:

@AlexW00d said:

Men of War is tactical as fuck, more so than Xcom tbh.

Do not trust this person. I have seen hours of the newest Men of War, being Men of War: Condemned Heroes. That game is drop-dead atrocious. There might be good Men of War games, but having lived with someone tasked with reviewing the game, it is not good.

Try playing one instead of going on some dude's opinion instead. Or read about them from people who you may 'trust' more than me. Or, don't be a cunt, whichever you prefer.

I definitely trust this review because I was present for about 8 hours of its playthrough and lived with the reviewer throughout the process. That game is practically broken, with numerous technical issues, the worst soundtrack I've ever heard in a shipping functional game, and extremely awful scenario design.

I was being a bit hyperbolic and sarcastic on the "do not trust this person," but, you know, I'm not the one throwing cuss words around at the drop of a hat, either.

#44 Posted by granderojo (1778 posts) -

To put it frankly, sure XCOM won the award this year, but there were way more high quality Strategy games with RPG mechanics in 2011 and 2010. There's a pretty steady trend in Strategy games to add more RPG in the strategy, whether it's Civ 5 or Shogun 2, or any other number of strategy games.

We may not call them SRPGs, but that's what they are. It's why XCOM works so well because Firaxis has finally learned that formula of how to properly meld the genre's together. The biggest obstacle was the interface for a lot of people, the civilization revolution techniques they adapted in XCOM is why it resonated with the bomb crew I think.

I could be wrong there but that's what I gather as a fan of strategy games of all ilk.

#45 Posted by Breadfan (6589 posts) -

ADVANCE WARS