The last waypoint podcast.

Something about Way-point's last podcast really bothered me. Manveer Heir was a guest and he said some things about people in a professional capacity that just really rubbed me the wrong way. One thing specifically was the when he referenced how a lot of the people that were going to be rehired at ea from the Visceral Games shutdown were people that caused a lot of the problems. The dude seems to have a lot of really good points and insight, but something about this whole situation made me really uncomfortable. Just me?

I thought it was pretty refreshing to hear someone talk so candidly about their experience inside a big studio, wish the dude luck.

@yothatlimp: I don't have a problem at all about any of the things he said about race. And the stuff he said about colonization and how upper management not hearing it is a sensitive project rung really true. I asked the question here to have a conversation, I very well could be just bothered by the fact he made me uncomfortable with being a white dude and having all the power. But, I feel like it's something else that really bothered me.

This is the Waypoint Radio podcast referenced: Episode 106: Urban White (October 20th 2017). I highly recommend it. It's an frank yet insightful conversation about being a person of colour in AAA game development, the changes at Bioware over Mass Effect Andromeda, and the state of EA (and other publishers). It also speaks about how to improve the state of games, not just dwelling in how it currently is.

I understand how you feel, but I think it's important evoke that uncomfortableness because it is an uncomfortable topic. We all obviously want the best people to be re-hired, but Manveer is almost certainly right: those that shout the loudest about problems, who actively go against the status quo (which was clearly not working) to make things better will be the first ones on the chopping block for being trouble-makers. Crew that question the captain on the poor direction will be flung overboard at the first oportunity (even if the boat was about to sink anyway).

These companies are inherently structured to push-back against positive change and to keep promoting poor managers to higher positions. Doing your job well isn't valued as much as keeping quiet and doing what your told (even if the objectively best decision for the project is to work differently and to question the poor management). Furthermore, a significant cause of failures is due to poor management, who are established developers with influence and connections within the company (so they will likely end up staying). It is definitely uncomfortable to think that those who kept their roles (or transfered to other EA studios) were likely active participants in the causes of the project's failures (or at least incompetent at stopping them), but it's incredibly likely.

Thought it was a fascinating listen. Would love for him to come back on the podcast. Seems like a great dude.

Plenty of people in middle management fail upward because it is part of the cycle. People get promoted, in large part because other people — especially, but not only, bosses — like working with them. Passion is great and all but too often puts colleagues off. Their success ultimately is not necessarily measured by the success of the overall project but rather how they handle adversity and relayed the massage from upper management. Keep in mind that in the grand scheme of things middle management makes few decisions that impact the outcome of the actual project. They are there to deal with the minutiae of day to day project management and assure that goals and deadlines are met. They are there to entrust that the vision of upper management is being implemented correctly.

@dixavd: I think my discomfort is more from the fact that he flies in the face of established cooperate norms. You typically don't attack people in a professional capacity even if they do suck. I agree he had a lot of great stuff to say. But, when you target specific people in a professional capacity as reasons for failure it just makes you look bad.

Hey, I edited my initial response because it came off as aggressive and condescending, my bad. As a fellow white dude, I get it, it's uncomfortable. Racial tensions are high, racial discourse can sometimes bring out the worst in people - but the whole point is to throw you into uncomfortable territory. I think @dixavd hit it right on the head.

I do think dragging the company/management so publicly could be a bad thing if his studio doesn't work out for him personally, but I do appreciate the honest thought and insight on some high profile failures.

@yothatlimp: No worries. white dude with chips on shoulders. God, they seem to be everywhere.

@diefast222:I understand that. The need to be co-operative is both powerful and required for a stable industry. Sometimes, though, you need to rattle people a little bit. Change is inherently antagonistic, every one should have to feel uncomfortable at some part of it. I don't doubt a lot of people who kept their jobs did their job well, but sometimes you need to stress a point to get it across. Hopefully the people listening are open and receptive, while also being critical and respectable: I don't think any one wants the take-away to be "boycott/harass those who stayed, they are traitors" or something similar - that is the sort of toxic mob-mentality that lead to UK miner's dealing with physical abuse in the 1980's when they continued to work through strikes despite needing to feed their families. It's all about "feel uncomfortable about this, and if you are in the industry, make sure you're not (even unconciously) punishing people for speaking out and trying to make things better".

I don't think it paints you poorly to find it uncomfortable, it paints you as empathetic.

Yeah, hearing that Waypoint was having Heir on definitely raised a an eyebrow. If even a tenth of Heir's reputation is earned, his objectivity surrounding his former employer and coworkers is questionable, at best.

It was a great cast with someone who was frankly and really honestly talking about whats happening in games today, and I appreciated that.

"Extreme left wing anti white figures" lmao fucking what? Sorry that openly talking about racism is bad now.

Edit: Holy shit its sad how many people are just regurgitating the "He's so toxic" line because he talks about diversity

@xdeser2: No you don't understand, he made some mocking tweets about white people so therefore he is an anti-white racist who hates all white people, somehow.

I'm not surprised that a Manveer Heir has ended up with a poor reputation: in jobs he's known for actively questioning the status quo to bring more maginalised people into development positions, and publically he's been a vocally anti-Gamergate spokesperson campaigning for greater diversity in development (especially i lead roles) years before that movement. It's a little sad how the inevitable Gamergate smear campaign against him (clasping at jokes he's made to try to get him fired from Bioware) has resulted in an aversion towards him.

Edit: I also want to add that I don't support everything he says. Just the particular narrative over him I see is heavily skewed in a way to discredit marginalised voices. I feel no ill-will towards any one who has no patience for the worse things he has said. You do you, just be critical about it.

All I can hope is, regardless of your issues with his past, you're willing to listen to the podcast and tackle the topic intellectually. I don't mind if you come away feeling like he's too militant or agressive, but I hope people are at least willing to hear him out (though be aware, an historic tactic to fight progressive change historically has always been to describe those looking for improvements to be aggressive).

I was disappointed that they even had him on. Pretty toxic person, with a lot of really questionable statements over the years.

@dixavd: Yea, I am sure part of the reason waypoint had him on was to start conversations like this. It certainly gave me some things to think on.

Fifty-seven. I predict this thread will be locked by comment #57.

I'll check this podcast out. I suspect it will be, at the very least, interesting.

i thought it was an interesting listen for sure- it's essential to get creators to speak from an unapologetically personal perspective, no matter how hard it is to hear or understand.

i do wonder though how that guy's eventual new project will do. it sounds like he wants to do something big, with as large/mainstream an audience as possible. if he brings his signature style to the tone of the game itself...that might be a tough row to hoe with mainstream tastes such as they are.

Man this thread has brought out the "rational centrists" in full force. Not surprising but pretty gross to see this community sullied by people who use terms like "anti-white" unironically.

Haven't heard the podcast yet but looking forward to listening to it for sure.

@mellotronrules: I'm certainly interested in seeing him try. He sure seems to have a vision and the skills to execute on it. No idea if it will be a huge seller, but I'd love to see someone with his level of experience try to make the "Do the Right Thing" of video games (which is how he and Austin talk about the project).

I think he had some good points. Part of the issues with Mass Effect Andromeda though is how the game was designed. At some point, they wanted a No Man's Sky-esque procedurally generated galaxy. A lot of tech and resources was built around stuff that was scrapped, aside from the various reboots that game went through in development. It's hard to design and write for a game that didn't take form for such a long period of time.

Conversations like they had are important to have, even if you don't agree with every point they made. (That said, even as someone who doesn't follow Waypoint that much, it is getting very samey, and it feels like there is only so much mileage they have) At the end of the day, it seems like EA is having some unique issues studios like Ubisoft, Activision, and Square Enix are not having, and I don't think it's because of most of the people making the games.

I at first thought I wouldn't like Manveer due to the tweets his haters keep circulating, but I found him pretty insightful. I will agree it is gross that people in this community are jumping on that hater bandwagon in this thread. I liked hearing his "let loose" insights on the game industry.

News flash; there are useless people in every workplace.

Yeah, I would have to agree with you here. The cause for diversity in games development is definitely a noble one, and his discussion on the podcast was surprisingly frank. It was just surprising to hear they brought Manveer on in the wake of the closure of Visceral specifically, since he had left Bioware Montreal just ahead of their collapse and prior to Andromeda's poor reception. People should definitely hear what he has to say.

It sounds a bit rough, but read through the Glassdoor reviews of any major corporation and you'll find similar sentiments. The idea of "failing upwards" is not new. Every company claims to make raises and promotions based purely on merit but rarely is that true. It's even more rare that a company gives consideration to diversity when choosing who to promote.

@darlingdixie: Nah, what he said was totally fine.

Thanks for the heads up on the episode, dude! Sounds really good and I've got it downloading now.

@darlingdixie: Yeah, my stance of dismissing it to make myself feel better. I assume you already did.

All told I thought it was a pretty interesting discussion about development happenings. I get where you're coming from about being uncomfortable about calling out people professionally but he also didn't actually call anyone out specifically and the things he alluded to are likely already well-known to many people in the industry so to me it was a fascinating peek behind the curtain.

@boonsong: There was nothing for me to dismiss but I would say continuing to argue for no reason is a fast way to get in trouble (with staff).

It was a good, extremely frank conversation. The only way in which I was made uncomfortable was the many times he nearly cut himself walking the razor's edge of a variety of NDAs.

@duluoz: What is the ideology he holds that is so poisonous?

I think that it's really important to examine not only the problems with AAA games from a consumer prospective, but also what the root cause of those problems might be. To do that we need developers like Manveer talk about what the culture at some of these studios are actually like and the systemic problems that lead to bad games being released and potentially good ones getting canceled. I really appreciated how frank the discussion was and thought the insights he gave as an experienced developer were extremely valuable.

@duluoz: As a Canadian man of South Asian descent, how fucking dare you presume on our experiences. Oh, so we’re prosperous so we can’t call it out when our white bosses tell us how well spoken we are for not having an accent, or when store employees follow us around while shopping, or when we’re held up for extra questioning by police. But we’re the “model minority”, so obviously Heir is “toxic” for sharing his lived experiences.

Sometimes I can’t even with this forum. It seems wypipo have truly taken over.

Well, I thought Austin was great in it.

This other fella'? Well, he makes some good points, but he also seems quite one-note. There's a real bad joke in here about how he makes diversity seem like the least diverse answer, but I get that he's eager to make a case for himself. Overall, a "meh" out of 10.

I guess the fundamental question is whether or not any of the big 3 publishers (Activision, EA and Ubi) care about releasing a critically acclaimed product? Based on what has been published lately they mostly care about releasing a financially successful product. The critical acclaim is great but it does not help sell games all on its own, case in point see Dishonored 2 or Titanfall 2 last year.

@duluoz: Just imagine how happy they would be if they also didn't have to deal with systematic racism. I think one of you or Manveer have a hateful outlook on life, and I'm not leaning towards Manveer.

Sorry. This discussion is over. We're not going to tolerate the sort of thinly-veiled bigotry and coded language that a lot of you are throwing around. There may be some legitimate criticisms of some of Manveer Heir's opinions, but most of what we're getting here is absolutely not that.