My Kingdom Hearts Crossover Wish List

I posted a short summation of my issues with the Kingdom Hearts series earlier this week and in that post I argued that I don’t like the way that the original Square-meets-Disney conceit has been sidelined in many of the games for Square’s original KH storyline (which I don’t particularly like). Now saying what I don’t like about the series doesn’t necessarily give an idea of what I actually want the series to be. So instead of tearing down the direction Square chose, let me offer a few design ideas that epitomize the kind of crossover focused game I originally imagined when I first heard of Kingdom Hearts. This list is not in any particular order of desirability or love.

1. Add Gau to Tarzan World- In Olympus in KH1 and 2 Square demonstrated that they were willing to blend FF characters with Disney worlds in places where the two IPs made sense together. I propose we make extensive use of that conceit to allow Gau, the Tarzan-like character from FFVI, to meet the actual Tarzan. Gau and Tarzan are very similar characters, so they may seem redundant. However, some of their key differences could be played up to interesting effect, like Tarzan being raised by apes, while Gau wasn’t raised by anyone at all. Tarzan was lost by his parents in the jungle, while Gau was cast out by his father. Who knows if they would get along or if they would see each other as threats since each character barely knows how to interact with humans? This would be a good opportunity to expand Gau’s characterization, since he is one of the least developed of FFVI’s characters.

2. Add Vivi to Halloween Town- Here is another logical crossover in terms of aesthetic; Vivi, a black mage from FFIX, looks like a natural fit for Halloween Town, so he would not stick out in that world. Furthermore, Vivi’s central struggles in FFIX center on not knowing where he belongs in the world. In contrast, Jack Skellington is the living embodiment of his world, yet he isn’t satisfied with Halloween Town. You could get a lot of interesting discussions going between Jack and Vivi seeing as one of them is rejecting what the other so desperately wants. Also Vivi could bring along Quina and Freya for added fun. Quina would be really fun to hear talking to people and he/she would fit right in.

3. Add Faris to Mulan World- Ferris from FFV is one of the characters from the Final Fantasy series who could most relate to Mulan’s situation, as they both have assumed male identities to fit into a male dominated world. Mulan assumed a male identity in order to fight for her country, while Faris assumed a male identity in order to command a group of pirates. In the case of the former, a male identity was a means to assume a familial responsibility that her gender prevented her from assuming. In the later’s case, a male identity was a means to escape a royal burden. Both deal with gender issues, but in very different ways.

4. Add Sephiroth and Kefka to the Disney Villian table- In KH1 there are several cut scenes where shadowy Disney villains sit around a table and discuss how they are going to deal with Sora and his buddies and how they will take over their worlds. This shadowy meeting is full of the requisite Disney villainy and general scheming, but the Disney villains are all relatively tame compared to the people from the FF stable. Imagine Oogie Boogie trying to hold a conversation with Sephiroth-- Oogie: “With all of these here heartless I can take over Halloween Town!” Sephiroth: “With the help of the heartless I will be able to destroy Earth, harvest its life force, and become an interstellar-planet-destroying-god. I will set fire to countless worlds like my mother Jenova.” Oogie: “Ok guys I know we are supposed to be a team and all, but can we vote this guy out or something? I don’t feel safe with him. ” -- Not to mention Kefka and his insanity. The Disney villains have grand ambitions, but many of the FF villains just want destruction and chaos in a way that I think would be funny to contrast.

5. Add Pocahontas to Avalanche in FF7 World- In the world of KH almost all of the FF characters have been compressed into a single point of origin: Hollow Bastion. This removes all of the intricate back stories, settings, and motivations that come with those worlds. I think this is a huge mistake (especially since Sora would fit in the melodrama of an FF world about as well as he fits with the goofiness of a Disney world). So why don’t we take the most environmentally conscious Disney character and add her to everyone’s favorite eco-terrorist organization. Pocahontas could protest Barret’s flippant disregard for human life and Barret could hate her love of willow trees and raccoons. Ok, maybe this one is a little bit silly, but I think the room should be available to displace Disney characters into FF stuff since it has worked in the other direction (I think Donald’s nephews at least prove this is possible since they exist in Hollow Bastion and Traverse Town).

These are just a few of the crossovers that I would love to see in the Kingdom Hearts series. Notice that none of these crossovers rely on the traditional “wouldn’t it be cool if these dudes fought” tropes, nor any “hey remember that guy” sequences. If you handle crossovers with care and use characters appropriately you can make the melding of universes a venue for new character development and interaction, rather than a pure nostalgia based, fan service filled, cash grab. I know that it is probably too late for Square to rewind time an refocus the KH series on the Disney-meets-Square stuff, but man I would love for this series to have a do-over. Do you have any crossovers that you would love to see in the KH universe?

Vivi's actually already in the series as a Twilight Town resident.

@hailinel: True, but the way he is used in Twilight Town is more of the cameo, "hey remember that guy" variety than as a meaningful participant. For one of the most introspective characters in the FF series he hardly speaks in KH2 and he vanishes after the opening tutorial. I would like him to give him some real time to shine and I think Halloween Town would be a great place for all of the reasons I mentioned above.

Frozen should be an easy no brainer since that movie has done absurdly well for Japan even being released later than many other regions. But which SE character to cross over in I couldn't say...

Beyond more fun settings, what I would like Square-Enix to do is embrace what Traveler's Tales has done with LEGO games. To clear a world/solve its problems you should be restricted in who you can take along and what you can do but once it is "unlocked" you should be able to take in whomever you want. The LEGO games have shown how fun it is go in a "free roam" mode with whatever characters you want. If you want to take Jack Skelington into "Under The Sea" then go for it.

@thatpinguino: I think there's something major you're overlooking in general. What would Disney allow? You might think pairing Faris and Mulan is great, but what if Disney said no to that? Or what if they didn't want Final Fantasy's feral child infringing on Tarzan's turf? Disney undoubtedly has a strong say in how their characters are represented, and no matter how good an idea may be, it's not necessarily Square Enix's fault that it couldn't be done.

@hailinel: Certainly, but I'm not privy to how those discussions work and how they manage that stuff so I figured I would base it on what the KH series has done in the past and what I would hope could be worked through. I'm almost sure the Pocahontas one wouldn't work, but I really don't know where the boundaries are so I didn't limit my wish list. I do know that they managed to find a way to do the Auron/Cloud and Hercules stuff and the young ducks in Hollow Bastion, as well as Beast in Hollow Bastion. Not to mention making Mickey a mini mouse Yoda. It seems like Square has a bit of latitude.

@extomar: I'm not sure what the plan is for the CG Disney movies and Pixar movies, but Frozen sounds good to me. Taking people from one world to another as part of your party would be fun as well.

Well, what I really would want for them to do is not just go for Disney movies, but for TV series too. Just thinking about a Rescue Rangers or Darkwing Duck world makes me happy. Never gonna happen, though.

Aside from that I agree with you on Gau. He would be perfect in the Tarzan world.

@sessh: I want them to delve into Pixar first if they could, but that might just be a case of which beloved childhood IP you care about.

My KH crossover wishlist: Tron

You could also remove all the Square Enix characters and all the original characters.

@corruptedevil: I think they make Tron games for that.

@thatpinguino: Except ya know, they don't, or Tron anything anymore. The Space Paranoids part of KH2 was the best Tron game ever made.

I'm sure that they gave more latitude to the primary Disney characters that are core to the story (i.e.: Mickey, Donald, and Goofy). But while they have included Final Fantasy characters here and there in a few Disney Worlds, and mixed some Disney characters in with Final Fantasy characters in places like Traverse Town and Hollow Bastion/Radiant Garden, their direct interactions with each other are noticeably limited. I can't help but think that isn't an accident, with Disney wanting to play it particularly safe with their franchises. Square Enix has much more direct creative freedom when it comes to both their own characters, as well as the original characters in the series. I imagine that, particularly in the worlds directly based on Disney films, Disney doesn't want the Final Fantasy characters impinging on their narratives and worlds to a key extent. Which is why we only ever see Sora, Donald and Goofy, or other original characters under the player's control in these scenarios, and why Disney characters outside of Mickey, Donald and Goofy, or characters specifically cast as series villains like Maleficent and Pete don't cross over from one world to another.

These crossovers are much easier to do when most or all of the characters involved are under the direct control of a single party. The Subspace Emissary Mode in Super Smash Bros. Brawl is a thin, goofy narrative, but it works because it's almost exclusively built on a cast of Nintendo characters (with Snake and Sonic as guests). There's no dialogue, and it doesn't take itself seriously, but it still manages to depict all of the characters that appear in a light that accurately reflects them. But again, that's because Nintendo had essentially total control over what occurred in that mode. Any creative decision that Nomura makes for the Kingdom Hearts series that specifically involves Disney characters (and even some that don't) needs to be run by Disney. He and the rest of the teams involved in these games have more freedom and leeway to work with the characters that they have more control over.

@hailinel: I think you could still do most of the stuff I proposed in the proper series if you let Sora act as the connection between the characters like they do in Olympus. I know how the politics of IP works though so I wouldn't be surprised if the developers are more hamstrung than I imagine. Regardless, I would love to see more crossover as subject than crossover as setting.

I like the Pocahontas one.

Maybe Red Xiii could be in an Aristocats world.

The "story" for Kingdom Hearts should be stripped down and setup like this:

• Multiple worlds exist. Travel between them is special but not impossible.
• The Bad Guys want to "win" by doing something harmful to these worlds for their immediate power gain or furthering "the end game" (ie. beat Mickey Mouse or Magic Kingdom or whatever). This should involve something extraordinary that even the most powerful natives of that world couldn't handle themselves.
• The Good Guys clearly don't want The Bad Guys to "win" sets about stopping them correcting whatever it is. Sora, Goofy, and Donald come in and fix whatever it was that was broken/wrong whatever.
• The Good Guys vs The Bad Guys show down in the end.

Doing the other crazy stuff stuff with the story is where Kingdom Hearts 2 lost its way and lead to so many sequels that never amounted to much.

You are forgetting the rules. Square has rules (from Disney) about what they can and cannot do which is why there is very little change up of characters and worlds so much. I don't remember what they all are, but they have to do with the worlds not being able to break the spirit of their original films, so they can't really add new characters to those worlds so much as basically invade them. You won't see Vivi in Halloween Town, for example. It's against the rules as far as I know. It's why Donald, Goofy, and Sora basically have to wear a different costume in each world.

I would guess this is actually why they sideline the Disney stuff so much in KH after the first. Square is pretty arrogant so staying within rules like these I'm sure is very difficult for them. If they shift the focus it means they don't have to follow the difficult rules when dealing with Disney crossovers. I am completely speculating, though.

Edit: I also noticed you guys discussing these rules a bit above and questioning Mickey, Donald and Goofy. Well, Within the Disney universe Mickey, Donald and Goofy have always been used to "cross over" into other universes (as well as villains, and characters from Mickey, Donald and Goofy cartoons). Therefore it is allowable by those rules for those characters to interact and go between those worlds (as it has happened in film before so it is already canon that they can do that).

This is why you see all the villains interact with each other, why you see Pete as an Antagonist for so much of KH 2, and why Mickey can be the guardian of a door between reality and the nothing people. It's acceptable in Disney "lore".

I believe Disney does this so their films will always dictate canon and the games will not create new rules. I think it's important that Disney stick to their guns on their rules as well (for the record).

Hopefully that makes sense.

Have Sora team up Nicholas Cage in the live action Sorcerer's Apprentice and later with John Travolta and Robin Williams in Old Dogs!

..., but in all seriousness, it would be neat for movies like Princess and the Frog and Wreck it Ralph to be in the new Kingdom Hearts, even though I don't really follow the series.

How did they not amount to much? Birth by Sleep is one of my favorite games in the series (and probably my favorite PSP game), while 358/2 Days, while lacking in various ways, includes one of my favorite characters in the series in Xion. I understand that it's easy to be dismissive of these games if you're not a fan of the series in general, but it's incorrect to assume that KH2 and the games that followed brought nothing worthwhile to the table.

@cornbredx: First of all I totally understand that Disney is going to have veto power over how their characters are used. This is a list of things that would be nice if they were possible, though I know many of them push the boundaries of what Disney would allow. However, several of my examples could fit within the current boundaries that the games have already shown. Olympus already showed an ability for Disney and Square characters to interact if they both match aesthetically and thematically. Vivi and Quina totally match Halloween Town from a visual perspective. Maybe you would have to darken Quina's color palette, but otherwise both of those characters totally look like they could be citizens of Halloween Town. Gau's look and behavior totally match Tarzan. I mean Gau is pretty much an off-brand Tarzan. Faris could easily be dressed like a Chinese warrior since she is from FFV, the originator of the job system. Any of the characters from FFV could blend into almost any world thanks to their job switching. I know that taking characters from Disney worlds and putting them in Square worlds would probably be a no go, but that is why this is a wish list.

Still, it's important to acknowledge that these wishes could never happen, and the answer isn't simply that Square Enix dropped the ball as so many people like to portray when it comes to these debates. People look at Organization XIII and Roxas and assume that the series has gone "up its own ass", but don't realize that the rules set by Disney don't present many viable alternatives.

I think there were interesting parts in those games but I couldn't tell you what happened in Birth By Sleep or 358/2 Days (I keep wanting to call it '365/2') or another game I can't remember the title for. What happened in those games is actually going to be relevant for KH3? I can't think of one important thing that needs to be carried forward where I am not even sure I understand half of it so I say abandon it.

This is a problem with a lot of "franchise games" where scattering lore all over the place doesn't enhance or enrich the game but dilutes it.

@hailinel said:

I don't know that these wishes could not happen. I agree that Pocahontas blowing up reactors in Midgar is impossible, but I think my first four wishes are totally doable with some work on Square's part. Again, Olympus has shown us that Square and Disney characters can interact so long as they mostly interact with Sora and they fit thematically. My first three examples fit thematically and visually so I don't see why they are impossible. Adding Square villains to the villain discussions is probably a little late since Maleficent's troupe has pretty much been phased out in favor of Organization XIII. But sephiroth was always the villain of Hollow Bastion so I don't see why he could not fit in with the Disney villains.

The thing is, Disney made it part of the contract between them and Square that the Disney worlds' narratives have to follow very very closely to that of the movie's original story. I could not find my source for this, but this is why it makes it hard to integrate Final Fantasy characters into most worlds, and why a lot of the game really feels like untapped potential in terms of what they do within the Disney worlds.

Also, 358/2 days is sort of an explanation game, and BBS is very important in terms of it being the origin story.

But again, even in Olympus, that's the Final Fantasy characters being kept separate and distinct from the Disney characters. It's as unlikely to ever see Pocahontas blowing up Midgar reactors as it is to see Tifa punching Gaston in the dick. And while Final Fantasy characters may be allowed in at least some Disney worlds, they'll only ever be allowed as guests that don't interfere with whatever the main scenario of the world is.

Sephiroth and Hollow Bastion are different because Hollow Bastion itself is not a Disney world. Like Traverse Town and Twilight Town, it's an original setting populated mostly by Final Fantasy characters and/or original cast members, with some Disney characters included, like Donald's nephews, that don't interact with the Final Fantasy characters in any meaningful way. And the same holds true for Hollow Bastion in its uncorrupted Radiant Garden form.

358/2 Days may not play much of a role in KH3, but it gave Roxas and the Organization as characters more definition and history. Birth by Sleep on the other hand introduced three protagonists that all play an important role in the story in one way or the other: Terra (the man Xehanort possessed), Ventus (basically on life support inside Sora at this point), and Aqua (who's been left to wander in darkness since the end of the game). Kingdom Hearts III will probably give resolution to all three characters in one way or another. They're all important characters in the game and link to the events of Kingdom Hearts 1 & 2i n various ways, so it wouldn't do to just abandon their arc.

Hades and Cloud interact as well as Auron and Hades. Also I believe Hercules fights both Cloud and Auron at one point. But regardless, I don't think the FF characters would have to part of the main story of a Disney world. They could be NPCs you could talk to as a side quest or something. Just putting FF characters with relevant perspectives into a Disney context would give you a means to compare and contrast the Disney and Square characters. I don't think you need a sequence where Jack and Vivi hang out before fighting Oogie Boogie, but maybe you can have him talk to Jack while Jack is rejecting Halloween Town. I think you can make room for these FF characters in a way that does not infringe on Disney, but makes for a more interesting narrative than a retelling of a Disney movie.

I recently had the "pleasure" of watching some modern day Disney kids cartoons with my girlfriend and her little sister and I was pretty astounded to see how many casual crossovers Disney allows now. Princess Sophia is basically Kingdom Hearts level crossover except Disney Princesses invade the main cartoon world instead of Sora's world invading the Disney stuff. On top of that there is a live-action Disney crossover show on ABC that mixes and mashes even more. Not to mention Disney Infinity. It looks like Disney is much less protective of the boundaries between each of its properties than it was 15 years ago when KH started.

I hope that this new mash-up crazed Disney allows Square some more leeway with how they mix Disney and Square properties in KH3. Maybe some of my wishes can come true.

After just finishing KH2 yesterday, anything that isn't them skimming the movie/sequel plots and losing all of the charm sounds like the best thing ever. The FF characters also have really shallow, fan-fiction-esque writing so if they insist on including them they should at least have better stuff going for them.

That whole evil council of Disney villains they had going in the first one was pretty great, I wouldn't mind something like that returning. They at least need something better to tie the Disney part to everything else, as opposed to using them as a backdrop. I think BBS was better about that, but I don't really remember.

(Also side note, they put a bunch of crossover stuff in the Lilo and Stitch cartoon later in its life, so it's not a new thing for Disney or anything)

@teddie: I have no idea why they replaced the Disney villain cabal with Organization XIII. They went from a group of recognizable misfits plotting to rule stuff to a group of characters with unpronounceable names and shadowy goals. Its like Square just couldn't resist JRPGing everything to hell and back. To be fair the urge to over-complicate narratives seems to be an Anime and JRPG staple at this point so it might be a larger cultural difference rather than a strict mistake. Maybe Japanese audiences love this stuff.

@thatpinguino: As an outsider who has largely only heard about the series from friends trying to explain it to me or briefly watching them play it, it honestly feels like the KH dev team resented the Disney deal after the first game, and just wanted to tell another overly convoluted JRPG story but they were contractually bound to include Disney properties. The vast majority of Disney characters are kind of hapless citizens just being terrorized by the villains, while the active participants in the actual conflict are primarily humans with Keyblades or something acting against Organization XIII. Am I getting this somewhat correct?

That Disney villain council from the first game actually sounds like the sort of rad thing this kind of crossover game should have, instead of having all of these original protagonist characters fighting these original antagonist characters, oh and sometimes Cloud and Mickey show up. Again, correct me if I'm way off the mark, because I have, at best, a passing familiarity with the series.

But yes, it seems after the angsty JRPGs of the late 90s came into favour, this sort of storyline must be something that Japanese devs feel obligated to make to appease their Japanese fans. Or something. Hell, I don't know.

@bisonhero: Your story synopsis is pretty spot on. Like KH2 begins with a tutorial section that lasts hours, features 0 characters from KH1, and only has a few FF characters in it. At the end of the tutorial you find out that the whole tutorial section was an alternate virtual reality that was created to restore Sora's memories that were lost in KH: Chain of Memoris and that the character you were using was the Nobody that was created when Sora lost his heart in KH1. So yeah the degree of JRPG nonsense increased 100 fold from KH1 to KH2. Also after KH1 Square used up a bunch of the main Disney movies and stories so they didn't have much to go off of when it came to building the Disney worlds. It looks like their answer was to blow out their own stuff.

As far as I'm concerned, the two best crossover moments in KH history are the two levels set in Olympus Coliseum. In there you get a mercenary Cloud working for Hades to try to win Aerith's soul (I think) and you get to see Auron from FF10 brought back from the dead to fight Hercules (only for him to turn on Hades). Those are the two moments that I cling to when I hope for better moments in KH. Actually there is also a cool FF crossover moment in KH2 where you fight though an endless army of monsters alongside Squall, Cloud, Tifa, Aerith, and Yuffie. You progress though the level by beating a few swarms of enemies alongside each FF hero before a new hero tags in. That sequence was pretty dope too.

@bisonhero: You've pretty much nailed it. I think the Organization spawned more from the fact that they weren't expecting to make a sequel, so they made some bigger conflict they could juice for more sequels/spinoffs. Even worse is that they've had to make like 3 more spinoff games just to set up a 3rd "mainline" sequel since they, again, didn't have a conflict after you defeated the Organization in KH2.

Basically, they just keep adding and adding to the story without having planned ahead, so you end up with this increasingly convoluted, drawn out story that's mired with plot holes etc. KH1 had a charming simplicity to it, but because they wanted to link the 2nd game to that story while still adding in a new conflict, they added like 10 more levels of complexity to the lore to justify all the links they wanted to make between the two games.

And then they made a spinoff prequel game that added even more layers of complexity.

@thatpinguino: The Olympus worlds seem to be consistent in the FF/Disney crossover stuff. BBS had Zack from Crisis Core (although I couldn't tell you what he did other than squats).

Also, that tutorial in KH2 pretty much contains an example of every wrong decision that series took after the first one. The major thing for me being the huge influx of computers/machines/data. At the end of that game where Ansem is taking his revenge on the Organization, his plan is to turn the heart of hearts into fucking data. I guess that's more a problem for me than other people, but I really dislike the sci-fi tinge everything has in the later games. To the point where we now have motorbike keyblades.

I agree. The fun part of the "original concept" was that Disney Villains were teaming up with (at the time) Square/Final Fantasy Villains where going with Organization XIII is just a bunch of guys with X in their name. I would love for them to go back and embrace those characters where what is the point of spending the money and using the IP if they just crank out a bunch of new characters?!

As for new Disney characters, Frozen and Big Hero 6 are easy adds.

@extomar: A Frozen/ FF5 crossover would be awesome for KH3. You could have Ferris and Lenna reconnecting and Anna and Elsa too. I know I'm dreaming too big by asking for pre-PS1 FF characters and for a real Disney/ Square crossover, but after a billion sequels it would be nice to be pleasantly surprised.

@extomar said:

Yeah, they are easy adds, but also how much lead time does Square need to incorporate stuff into a console Kingdom Hearts game? I know the game is still a ways off, but Big Hero 6 came out quite recently, and I wonder if they already have a skeleton plan on what Disney and FF properties they're going to put in the game.

@bisonhero: KH2 had a Pirates of the Carribean level in it, and that came out ~1.5 years before KH2 did. Also based on how long the last Nomura directed game has taken (nearly a decade at this point), I honestly wouldn't be surprised if there's a world for a Disney movie that doesn't even exist yet in KH3

@bisonhero: I bet that Disney has at least a 3 year plan on what their movie schedule is going to look like. Now I have no idea whether they share that info with Square or if they don't really care about the KH games since they don't own the whole property.

And that's assuming that KH3 is even coming out any time soon. I remember when FF15 was Versus-13 almost a decade ago. It sure looks like Square's Japanese pipelines are all kinds of messed up