Did Kojima go too far? (Chico's Tape spoilers)

I’ve not played Ground Zeros, but holy cow that’s intense and all sorts of rough. It seems like a really out of place and extreme tonal shift, especially if all it’s there to do is make Skull Face even more evil than you’d expect from a man willing to be known as Skull Face. Goodness I’m uncomfortable right now…..

You haven't even played the game, and yet Kojima has accomplished what he wanted to with that stuff!

Exactly. I maybe wouldn't mind games exploring those themes if done in a respectable way. But putting those themes side by side in a game franchise where you throw nude magazines to distract guards, and "comically" throw up if you roll in a fucking barrel- not so much.

I don't thing those Japanese quirky-social-queues-and-silly-gags motif will ever mix well with those serious issues and themes for me or the majority of the western audience. (I'm not saying the game won't be successful tho)
And don't get me started on the portrayal of women in general in that franchise. I loved the first MGS, but some of the shit in that game is toootally unnecessary and cringe worthy. In later games even more so.

It looks to me this is used more as a poor story device to make you care about certain characters and hate others. (I haven't played the game tho)

But that's how it usually goes. Most of the time, the devs think most players are male, so they show us some close up shot of the girls tits and ass and expect we're suppose to care what happens to her now because we got a nice tickle in our pants out of it... Which I was perfectly fine with when I was 12. Now? Not so much...

@humanity: 24

I've not played the game yet, but it's safe to say i've been spoiled on a large portion of the ending. The cynic in me can't help but think that making players hate the villain to this extent was part of Konami's marketing ploy to get people to buy the next game. Kojima made players want to really kill a video-game bad-guy like no other video-game bad-guy before. Hell, I've not even played the game and I really want to kill this guy. So to have him get away (I'm assuming he got away, right?) will naturally make you want to play Phantom Pain and get the opportunity to have your revenge and some kind of resolution.

I have never been a fan of Kojima and I'll never understand the obsession some have for the egomaniac like he's the second coming of Christ. I also already have no intention of playing any of his Metal Gear games whatsoever, but I have to say that's extremely fucked up!

My assumption is It was probably done to get people talking. If true, then I guess it's working. Between unnecessary half-naked silent sniper lady and this torture-grenade-rape nonsense causing an uproar of sorts on the internet is probably keeping the game from flying under the radar. Any form of publicity, good or bad, is still publicity. The ethics of it are kind of irrelevant. It exists and people are talking about it.

That said, some will be into the deranged content in the game that the OP describes and others won't. Different strokes for different folks.

@humanity said:

Can I have a link to that recording? I can't seem to find one on Youtube. All my Googles were showing up results on how to find them as in-game collectibles.

Also, I don't really get your 2nd paragraph about the song. Is there some historical significance to the song that I'm missing?

Is there documentation describing who is Skull Face in Ground Zeroes? People speculating it being Coldman or some other person isn't concrete enough.

@white: I found an audio tape in which Skull Face goes over his origin, and I don't see any way he could be a returning character from Peace Walker, or MGS3. Not even Portable Ops. Unless he was lying, which is possible, but it seemed legit.

And if he was really Coldman, I'd think they would have gotten the same voice actor, because Hayter was the only one replaced. All the other returning characters have the same voice actors. So far as I know, Skull Face's voice actor (James Horan) hasn't been in any previous MGS games.

Source? Seems like a completely uncalled for jab at comic books, as if video game were anything better (or worse, for that matter).

@mooseymcman said:

I suspect the reason why Hayter was replaced is cause Kojima has plans for him to voice David (heh, David voicing David), which would plausible considering the presence of Eli (who is/was believed to be Liquid). But that's just me speculating off a speculation.

@white: I've long thought there was going to be a Young Snake cameo in Phantom Pain. And, honestly, I think Big Boss is a different character that should have his own voice. He has before, and other Snakes have their own voices.

Also, if Eli isn't Liquid Snake then I don't know what to believe any more.

@white: Here's that Chico tape

Not surprised you couldn't find it since the uploader got the character's name wrong.

It felt incredibly self indulgent and unnecessary. And a bit out of step considering I don't recall him ever having anything that hardcore in Metal Gear before. Not offended or anything, but it's quite literally of the definition of torture porn.

@white: I don't mean the song itself being significant, but rather the content of the tapes. There was an early E3 trailer that was basically Skullface riding in a jeep, in the rain, to see Chico, he hands him a casette and then leaves the base on a helicopter. At the time, apart from the trailer looking really cool I didn't really get what was happening, who was the boy, why he gave him a cassette? After you finish Ground Zeros, you know exactly why Skullface is there, why he is giving him the cassette, whats on it, and the significance of the song playing. To a lesser degree you also begin to kind of understand that Phantom Pain trailer where those those two patients are making their way through a hospital under siege.

I'll PM you a link to the tapes.

In Identity Crisis, DC did a similar thing with Dr. Light. They wanted to make him seem like a real threat, and not the joke he'd been for years. So they made him a rapist. Reactions were mixed. I don't think it was a jab at comics, so much as a jab at a writing trope.

These things have a tendency to have a life of their own and it's important to reserve judgement until the finished product is out, but I feel comfortable saying that mainstream video games do not have a strong track record for handling "mature" subjects, and that we are years if not an eternity away from a time where depictions of sexual violence belong in any mainstream game.

@humanity said:

That was my question. What WAS the significance of the song, "Here's to you"?

From what I gathered, the song was about Nicola and Bart, two anarchist that were, supposedly, wrongfully charged for murder because of prejudice against anarchist (praise Helix). So I guess about Cipher's intolerance to anything that is a perceived threat to his world order?

Btw, thanks for the tapes.

He totally has the right to tell whatever story he wants. But at the same time tonal shifts can be really jarring if not handled right. The subject matter isn't the problem. It's the fact that it's just dropped right in the middle of this story with zero tonal gradation, and is really long and drawn out. It's not the story, it's the way the story is presented that just feels out of place and a poorly handled.

I'm not convinced Kojima's that savvy or self-aware. But one can hope.

i cant speak to the scene just yet, my copy got delayed from amazon, so i have no full context of what happens (but i do have an idea of how raw it gets based on the trailer)

Every Metal Gear Solid game since 2 has been punishing the player for thinking they should take the series seriously. The same conversation has been coming up since Metal Gear Solid 2, "You have this great story and then (X happens)." Despite all of the trailers making this look like this is the one that's going to take it seriously, it's like that every game. Kojima's still fucking with us. At least, I'd like to think it's on purpose.

Just as something to think about, Solid Snake appears in video games alongside the following:

A) Pikachu

B) The Monkeys from Ape Escape

C) Horrific torture rape

D) Optimus Prime

@toug: Untrue! Solid Snake is not in Ground Zeroes! You're confusing him with Big Boss.

They talk about this on a recent 8-4 podcast, because they talked to a guy involved in the localization of Metal Gear. The code names were created by Japanese people, and the words chosen are basically meant to be exotic-sounding English code names, chosen more for how cool they sound to Japanese ears than how appropriate they are. MGS1 was probably the last chance they had to just localize all the character names into something totally different for the English language version (with code names more in line with Splinter Cell or other Tom Clancy kinda spy fiction), but they didn't, and MGS1 was so memorable because of its larger than life villains that the campy names are now a core part of the series (at least in the English-speaking world where they are perceived as campy).

And honestly, had they cleaned up the names for the English localization, it probably would've been pointless anyways because less silly names wouldn't really have fit with Kojima's increasingly fantastical villains and plotlines.

If this happened in a movie, we probably wouldn't be talking about it.

Not going to play this unless I magically receive a ps4 but I'd say no, he hasn't gone too far. It's almost "brave" to release this in a high profile video-game considering the rampart idiocy of today's media focus so, you know, power to Kojima. I guess.

@dudeglove said:

That is hilarious.

@lukeweizer: If it had suddenly happened in a film series known for ridiculous camp and melodrama, critics would be talking about it.

Yup. If it happened in something like Iron Man to the extent, graphic depiction and length, that it happens in this game, it would make the news.

So, this is taken straight from the wiki on this site for Paz in peace walker

Once chapter 4 is completed, Extra Ops 67: Date with Paz is unlocked. Unlike other missions, the only goal is to seduce Paz by using Co-ops Communication to compliment her. Depending on the phrase, a red love heart will appear over her head indicating that her affinity for Snake has risen, or a blue broken heart will appear indicating that her affinity has dropped. Using CQC on Paz will result in Snake groping her chest, resulting in a swift slap to the face and a huge drop in affinity. To complete the mission a cardboard box must be equipped. Paz will ask if there's room for her too and will climb inside, the box will then bounce around for a while with the sound of giggling and grunting. By S-ranking Date with Paz all unique female staff members in mother base will appear in their underwear in the model viewer.

You think this MIGHT have been a massive tonal shift from what is above to gang rape, child sex, and bombs implanted? Fuck that and fuck this

Yeah. Fuck Kojima forever.

It isn't over any sort of line, if such lines exist, but I don't think that it adds anything except shock value.

I think it is great for someone to go/attempt to go that far in games.

In the world of movies and books and t.v. shows you have the schlock movies that use sexuality as a selling point (hot girls in slasher movies, girls gone wild, romance books that are written just for the sake of the couple getting together and fucking.)

Thus far, as far as society is concerned, video games have only reached that level, and as far as sexuality goes it's not that far off, the interactive sex scene in Indigo Prophecy was just plain silly, Heavy Rain was cheesy as hell, Duke Nukems naked ladies were presented with the same equivalency of the big breasted 'teens' that Freddy, Jason and Micheal murder on a regular basis.

But people can look past that in movies/books/shows due to the 'higher end' forms of those entertainment that use sexuality to make a message or point or just make a nice scene out of it.

Now obviously we aren't talking about sex here, we are talking about horrific rape scenarios, however, if someone can pull off subject matter as sensitive as that in video game form and pull it off well then maybe that can elevate video games one more notch beyond 'silly slasher stuff' to people in general.

Because in movies where you can have Piranha 3DD and people go "ah that's just silly" but then have movies like Irreversible that are taken seriously, so to would it be great to have games like Duke Nukem that are just silly along side maybe this new Metal Gear Solid game.
Or it'll be terrible silly shit, but at the very least I appreciated someone trying.

Sounds like a solid way to torture someone alright.

This kind of subject matter isn't new to the series. Meryl implies that Ocelot sexually assaulted her in MGS1. Otacon recounts his experience of statutory rape at the hands of his stepmother in MGS2. Volgin makes a more than overt reference to raping Tatyana/EVA in MGS3. He also gropes her while simultaneously electrocuting her. And in MGS4 Drebin implies that soldiers raped Laughing Octopus.

If it goes too far in Ground Zeroes and not in the previous games, it's because here the actual crime takes place on an audio recording. It's a lengthy, uncomfortable scene instead of an off-handed reference.

I don't know exactly what "going too far" means, to be honest. I don't know where the uncrossable lines are or where they should be on this kind of issue. But I don't think the scenes in question add anything of value to the story. There are better ways to make a villain hateable.

I don't know how I feel about this. I don't know how I feel about the changes made to MGS's formula either (in ground zeros/phantom pain)...

I'm gonna go cry in a corner while holding onto my copies of mgs 2-4 for a little while. BRB ;'(

@lab392:

Like you said, he could be doing it to characterize skullface (similar to what he did to characterize Volgin, which worked super well to paint him as a monster, IMO). Cant be sure until I play it, I guess.. Maybe there are less brutal ways to characterize a villain, but it all depends on how he wants to characterize skullface AS a villain.

If it makes you feel so uncomfortable, maybe that's the point.

It's the intended effect - to make you hate the villain. These are terrible things you're describing.

Some of the best moments in games and movies (and books really) are times the hero gets to smash the villain's face in after he commits atrocities. It's not unusual, and it's made more effective if it makes you feel worse.

Yeah, no. There's been far worse in other games, and as long as they don't get AO out of it by rating companies, they didn't go to far.

I haven't played the game or heard the audio file in question, but I don't think it'd be any different than a rape scene in an R rated movie. Obviously the situation with the bombs is an entirely different thing, but hearing part of an audio clip from said atrocities isn't any worse than some stuff I've seen in R-rated films. Hell, "Girl With the Dragon Tattoo" has both rape and objects being forced into unpleasant places and it's still one of my favorite movies. I usually skip over those scenes when I watch it, but it doesn't take away the impact of those plot points having seen those scenes the first time.

If it's a part of the story Kojima felt needed to be in he has every right, it still doesn't mean I will listen to it as I have the general idea of how bad it is. It may be unpleasant, but most games shy away from those situations that probably happen more often than not to imprisioned people. Is it something we need to hear? Maybe not, but at least they're not shying away from the fact that it's likely to happen in those situations.

@foxmulder: My favorite moment in Dragon Tattoo is the part where Lisbeth starts blasting Vanilla Ice to cover up the sounds of Blomkvist's burrito induced diarrhea.

That was a bit too much, and easily the most morbid MGS game I've ever experienced.

also, considering Chico is 13-14, it is completely traumatazing for him not to just experience this, but have this happen to a girl he cared for.

also, prepare for the torrent of fan alternate stories about what would happen if they found the second bomb in time.

QFT

I forgot about all that. Why? because it made me uncomfortable more so with Eva in Mgs3 and then laughing octopus. Ground zeros I was pretty off with watching the trailers after seeing the gut opening stuff. So I shyed away, then some folks referenced stuff ripped from a preload or somthing saying. The paz tapes and linking the files, following talk about Chico forced to rape Paz. It all disturbed me, now its more detailed it makes my gut hurt even more.

I am not a gorehound or a scary movie lover so I aint the most resilient. So the thought of going in blind and finding this would make me sick on the spot, I can handle a few things but all of this together. More so if it was interactive of sorts. Nope I couldnt handle it.

I am the same dude that shirks the torture seen in GTA, if I had to perform the same torture on Paz or worse the torture and rape that is going to too far.

I think this is as far as he can push once its interactive it will probably be illegal. Watching its thats another boundary for another time. If this keeps getting pushed much more. Like horror films I choose to not partake.

I want to play Metal Gear solid Ground Zero's, I plan to avoid most of this. If I cant or it becomes worse in MGS5 then I cannot play the game cos of the story. This is the point I am saying game first story later. I am in deep on the MGS story side so for me to say that?

@akyho: The rape stuff is all in audio tapes that are hidden collectibles in the game. If you just play the missions, and don't go looking for the secret tapes, you can avoid that stuff. You can't play it without seeing the cut-scene where Paz is opened up and the bomb is removed.

That said, unless you really have to play this for the game play right now, I'd say just wait for Phantom Pain. Of course, there's nothing saying there won't be similar stuff there too.

@lab392: I feel like saying there are 'better' ways to make a villain hatable is heading down a weird path. There are definitely less disturbing ways of doing it, less gross and brutal and less likely to freak people out. That said, Skull Face is clearly supposed to be the kind of character who's extraordinarily sadistic, cruel, and just plain gross. In-universe and out you're supposed to be absolutely revolted at the things he does, doubly so because most of his actions are totally unnecessary. Saying that there are 'better' ways to make the character hated is ignoring whether or not those ways would be accurate to the character. The character in this case is intended to be a particularly disgusting and horrible person.

I think there's a weird misconception here that because this event took place in the story and these tapes were included in the game that it means this whole thing is for someone, that there's some audience out there who finds out about this and is somehow into it. Just because it was put into the game doesn't mean that it's there to please someone or anyone. It's a dark and really disturbing turn in the story, and unfortunately it's more realistic than Metal Gear's usual look at what bad people in positions of power do to those who have no recourse, and that's coming from someone who really doesn't like this particular event.

Also I feel absurd saying that anything in Metal Gear is realistic, and I have a feeling that line is gonna get jumped on, but let's all be honest about the fact that some human beings are really fucked up and horrible. Skull Face is horrible for a video game character and only scratches the surface of shit that real people have done to other real people. Maybe that's why I have a hard time believing that an audio tape of his torture session, while super fucked up and disturbing, is going 'too far' for a video game, especially one that kids aren't gonna be playing unless they have terrible parents.

I just listened to the tapes and despite how atrocious the acts being committed are, you really barely hear any of it. It's not like the tape is 5 minutes of the rape happening and you're made to listen to the whole act. They lead up to the acts, but you only hear a few seconds at most before the tape cuts to later audio. I really don't think it's as big a deal as people are making it out to be.

Again I think what happens to the characters is awful, but the way it's played in the audio tapes it doesn't take it too far. If anyone wants to listen for themselves and decide they can be found by googling 'Chico Sound Tapes'.