Game Of Thrones Season 5 Discussion Thread

http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/36cf62/spoilers_all_why_the_end_of_episode_6_makes_sense/

This guy is on point with his reading of the Sansa scene and says all I care to say about it. One thing I'd like to emphasis though is that if it had been fake!Arya that would have been a character cast and created PURELY to get sexually assaulted. That is so so so much worse than what happened here. Not to mention all the stuff that happens to her that did not happen to Sansa that we probably would have seen because the creators care more about Sansa.

Also Baelish = Manderly. Large force of knights heading up to Winterfell to be buddies with Roose? Uhuuuuuuuuuh.

I was thinking more on the Ramsay being insane thing: I guess that's just the case? If that's how it is, I just don't care for that part of it. I like the show I have watched so far a ton because it humanizes all manner of different characters and gives them interesting motivations. I can understand why some of the more villainous characters on the show might do what they do, even if I wouldn't myself.

Stannis has become one of my very favorite characters on the show and the one that right now I like best to be the potential king. This character started with me thinking little of him, that he was just kind of forgettable. It seemed to be about the witch most. It went from thinking he would be a kind of pawn of evil or a dark lord type of character (his scenes had a dark vibe for a while), to then a strong general, to a very smart leader who has held strong during the war so far, even after losing a major battle by a genius move by the defenders. He is constantly moving towards his goals. His own country seems to be pretty strong. He has a great love for his daughter. He has been showing concern for greater threats like Winter and the white walkers. He gave Jon Snow a full vote of support (which I really liked) even though he turned it down. He has an inspiration or passion in the Red Woman that seems to me to be quite questionable, yet outside that is one hell of a ruler I think. I find it really cool to have that strong of an arc on one character. And I do feel conflicted about him because of the Red Woman, but that only makes the character better and more interesting, to me. He is complex.

Some of that work with Stannis was done this season too, that makes me like him so much. There are still really good parts to this season but some of it is bad in a way the show hasn't been before, to me. Maybe at a couple brief moments. I really haven't liked Ramsay from the start but I thought he was a temporary character. He has been on the show so much and nothing good has come from it. Some other storylines have just been kind of silly and uneventful but that's the worst, for me.

For me it just kind of ruined Sansa's arc. I think other people put it really well in this thread, and when I learned how that was basically a storyline fused in from another character that's really disappointing. Like I say at the start, if that's what they're going for that's what it is. But I just don't like that part of the show and find it not interesting or fun to watch in any way really. There are other characters on the show that have done awful, awful things too. They just don't only do them over and over. The Hound is a terrible guy a lot of times but I really enjoy him in the show.

@defaultprophet: The problem I have is a potential one. They've been building Sansa to be a character that isn't just a victimized plot device, but after watching the preview of next episode, Sansa could easily go back to her old thing of just being sad all the time, and being a device to show the cruelty of the villains, only to be saved by asking more capable characters to help her. I'm not saying that will happen, but if it does, and it looks like it could, it'll be a complete regression of a character who was for once starting to actually become interesting in her own right.

So in and of itself, the scene isn't bad. People who are saying that Sansa letting it happen invalidates her character arc, or makes her weak, are wrong. What will be the deciding factor is what happens afterward. If all that scene exists for is to show (yet again) how messed up Ramsay is, and to do the tired old beat up on the Starks, and Sansa in particular, then it most definitely is a problem.

It also doesn't help that Sansa being in Winterfell, and Littlefinger's entire plan make no goddamn sense whatsoever, so the entire plot just feels cheaply thrown together from what I assume are scraps of different plots in the books.

This whole season is full of plans that make very little sense. Jamie and Bronn went into this rescue with zero planning, the Sand Snakes went into the kidnapping with zero planning, the Sansa/Littlefinger combo is making less and less sense as time goes on, Jorah decided to sail through the death vortex in the world's shittiest sailboat, and Dany decided to go all Mad King before coming to her senses and doing the obvious thing she should have done before this whole mess started. Only Jon and Aria seem to be consistent in their thinking, or thinking at all, for that matter.

Hell, even if Cersei's plan is going to blow up in a hilarious way, at least it's a plan.

I agree it could be terrible. Or she could cut Ramsay's throat Gone Girl style.

I want the latter.

Littlefinger's plan does make sense though. He wants more power. His plan if you piece it together from what he did, what he told Sansa, what he told Roose, and what he told Cersei is this:

Get permission to march the army of the Vale through the riverlands and into The North. Have the military power(Power is power) to influence the battle of Winterfell. I think he betrays Roose ala Manderly and allies the vale and The North under Sansa with Stannis.

This combined force goes South and he gains the power he right now has only in name only over the Riverlands. That's 3 kingdoms he controls and he's allied up with The Mannis. That's a damn fine place to be.

What did you or any one expect to happen? It's pretty established at this point that Ramsey is a piece of trash. It's also been established that the wedding ceremonies literally go from get them married, and get them fucking. The marriage is literally not "official" until they fuck. That's why it was such a big deal Tywin was pressuring Tryrion last season into fucking Sansa and that Tyrion refused(Secretly). Ramsey is has a much less of a conscience then Tyrion.

Not sure if it was from the show or the book, but there was a description of one wedding tradition involving the wedding guests carrying the wife up to the bedroom(during which they literally are stripping her naked), and then after the bride and groom consummate the marriage the wedding guests parade around the bloody sheets around the banquet hall.

I am really curious how you have made it this far into the show and how you reacted to other events that happened. Really bad shit is constantly happening to people in GoT, especially people you like. What happened to Sansa doesn't negate any character development she has had, in fact it just adds another layer. Do you just think rape is bad and shouldn't be used as a plot device, or do you find that it was just used poorly?

Exactly. We know that Ramsey is a dick. We know that Theon is an absolutely broken man. We know that Sansa has been stripped of any agency she could have ever had. Why did the point need to be driven home again? Why is it a bad thing to hope for your expectations to be subverted? Why is it a bad thing to be a little annoyed that a rape scene wasn't considered to be shocking enough without a dude standing there, looking horrified, to drive the point home? Why shouldn't I expect more from the media I consume.

@ssully said:

I think it was used poorly.

That's not fair. Theon wasn't there to increase the shock value. He was also being tortured by Ramsay and they showed him to mirror the viewer's response as well as a way to not have to show Sansa being raped. Would you have less of a problem with the scene if it had focused on Ramsay and Sansa?

Or if it was fake!Arya like in the books a character that only exists to be sexually assaulted?

@defaultprophet: It wouldn't have been any better if he hadn't been there, that was just the icing on a particularly shitty cake. And all that may well be the intention of him being there, but it came across as focusing on the horror of a passive observer instead of the woman being assaulted.

And I have no thoughts about the books because I haven't read them and I couldn't give a shit less. I watched the show and thats what I took issue with. Saying "well is could have been worse" is irrelevant.

It's not when that's one of the major complaints about it, I did not know your book status but I've heard that argument that it's worse than the books because it's Sansa enough that I took a shot.

Well the way I viewed the scene is how I explained it. That's not with the benefit for a producer interview or anything else, just in the moment that's what it conveyed to me. So it may not have been effective to you, but it wasn't universally ineffective.

I think Theon was there as an audience surrogate. I don't think he added anymore shock to the scene. If anything I think he place a small seed of hope for the audience. I don't know about you, but I was REALLY hoping he would FINALLY muster up the courage and give Ramsey what he deserves. But instead he once again failed to do the right thing and the camera rested on his face that expressed the horror both himself and I felt about the whole situation.

Also it's not a bad thing for your expectations to be subverted, or to expect more from the media you consume. But you haven't really explained why this scene was bad expect for the fact that it piled more shit on these characters who have already been shit on.

I believe the Sansa-Ramsay-Theon scene will make sense by the end of the season. And that is the trouble the TV show (and other similar shows) has, individually episodes are rarely good but the whole season is far better then the individual episodes.

@jay_ray said:

This is an issue with long form storytelling in general. Take comic books; taken one issue at a time Jonathon Hickman is insufferable as a writer. Get a collected volume and burn through several arcs at once, and things click into place and you realize it's all one story.

Basically what I'm saying is that certain television shows are really designed around binge watching. Game of Thrones is one of them.

This is very true. There's very little satisfaction in this series until the last few episodes of a season when everything comes together. Everything before that is just building up dominoes in preparation for tipping one over.

Like I said at the time: It makes ZERO sense within the context of this world for Littlefinger to set up Sansa with Ramsay. Not a even a little bit. And last's night's show just drove that point home even further. Littlefinger is supposed to have a weird incestuous sexy time daughter-lust for Sansa as a surrogate for Cat. He's omnipotent so he would know that Ramsay is a crazy person. There's just no chance in hell that he'd let Ramsay go around raping her.

It has been made pretty damn clear Littlefinger lusts, desires, etc. the Iron Throne and that is all. Littlefinger loves only himself. He has gained money, political power, and influence but still lacks an army. What he has done will give him a pretty big army so he could make a legitimate attempt to conquer.

@jay_ray: have you read the books? That is simply not true. Littlefinger is a total creepshow around Sansa and Catelyn all the time. You're telling me that he was only making out with Sansa because he thought it would win him the iron throne? Also, he was plotting on how to take over the iron throne as a little boy when he was obsessed with catelyn? How exactly do any of his creepy advancements toward the stark women have anything to do with the iron throne?

The books are irrelevant to the HBO show. George RR Martin will tell you this himself.

In the show, we know Baelish truly loves Cat. We see this in season 2, when he sees Cat face to face in her tent at Renly's camp. It's the only time Baelish loses his composure. It's an open questions as to how Baelish feels about Sansa.

Yes, Littlefinger flatters Sansa and kisses her at the Eyrie. But is it just coincidence that Lysa happened to be watching at that very moment? Viewing the show on its own merits, without any influence from the books, perhaps the most likely reading of the scene is that the kiss was mostly for show. Sansa had already told him of Lysa's jealousy, and Baelish fed those fires anyway. That's because he knew it would lead to chaos, which he could use, and and through it he was able to climb to acting Lord of the Vale.

The added effect is that now Sansa thinks she knows what Littlefinger wants. She agrees to an arranged marriage with Ramsay, because she thinks Baelish is in love with her, and ultimately has her best interests in mind. She trusts his plan, but we viewers have no reason to believe his feelings are genuine. He kissed Sansa, but only because it served an end. He whisked Sansa away from King's Landing after Joffrey was murdered, but Sansa is an important piece on the board that every power in Westeros would like to possess. Now, in this episode, we see Baelish use Sansa to disintegrate the Lannister and Bolton alliance, putting himself in charge of an army at the same time. So yes, it makes complete sense for Littlefinger to set Sansa up with Ramsay, and I'm not sure he cares what happens to her after the fact.

@bceagles128: @maedhros925 stated my response to you perfectly.

It feels like nearly all of the previous Ramsey/ Theon stuff could've been gutted out and we would've ended up with roughly the same amount plot progression. If they had just gone from Theon being caught to Sansa seeing him in the kennels you wouldn't really have to change anything else and you could imply a lot of things without producing so many superfluous scenes. The only plus side to Ramsey is the interactions between him and his father which are decent at best. I've been enjoying the Jon and Arya stuff, everything else feels sort of meh.

Man that Sand Snake scene sure was something huh. When Obara Sand starts to go into another monologue after being captured me and my friends just started cracking up. And she's just stuck in permanent grumpy cat face. And I kept picturing Tyene telling Nymeria to put away that damn whip and actually be helpful. Also RIP Bronn, being done in like that is a sad way to go.

@top8gamer:Oh shit, I didn't even think about Bronn. That blows. I was looking forward to him really butting heads with Jaime over Jaime's haughtiness.

I don't fully agree with this assessment, but I do see its merit. I don't think most of the audience would simply accept Theon as a dog-boy without seeing the severity with which he was broken. At the very least we got that great scene of a remorseful Theon while he's "escaping" with Ramsay when he comes to the realizations that his "real father lost his head at King's Landing."

@spoonman671: Should note that in the books Theon is presumed killed and returns a whole book later as Reek, and it's pretty great.

Was really bummed out the way the show handled that whole arc, taking away any suspense or surprise at his 'rebirth'.

If he disappeared and they brought him back two seasons later the vast majority of the audience wouldn't have any clue who he was. I find myself regularly explaining to people who characters are that appear in nearly every episode. Normal people watch this show. My mother watches every week and would not recognize the name Jorah Mormont.

Frankly, I don't find the notion of "hey this guy was dead, but now he's back and called Reek" to be all that compelling. I think most people that wanted that just wanted it because that's what the book did. The show is not the book.

Except you already knew how the books handled it. There is no suspense or surprise for you.

Man, the way the show is handling the Sand Snakes is extremely disappointing. They're totally badass in the books, but the show treats them like the Kombat Kids B-team. I mean, they got beat despite having a three-on-two advantage and one of the two is missing a hand. That's . . . not awesome. Plus, what exactly was their plan again? Kidnap Myrcella to do . . . what exactly? It's Underpants Gnomes level of planning: 1) Kidnap Lannister heir 2) ???? 3) Profit. It makes them come off as bumbling buffoons rather than an actual threat.

I think this is one of the few instances where cutting a major character out of the books and folding/simplifying the plot into other characters arcs really hurt the show. I get that the show runners probably didn't want to get into a whole other complicated plot with yet more characters. That said, by cutting Arianne out entirely (or at least, not folding a lot of that plot into Ellaria's character), they're missing out on pretty much everything important about Dorne. To wit:

a. It explains why they want to kidnap Myrcella rather than just kill her. Since she's older than Tommen, under Dornish law, she'd have a better claim to the Iron Throne. By kidnapping her and raising her as a rival, Dorne gets revenge on the Lannisters by forcing them to choose between their own children.

b. The fact that the plot is much bigger in the books makes it clear Ellaria/Sand Snakes aren't the only ones unhappy about how Prince Doran is sitting around and doing nothing. They have the backing of several major Dornish houses in the books.

c. By the same token, it adds more to Prince Doran's character as it makes it clear there's a difference between sitting and doing nothing and sitting and doing nothing. The books demonstrate that he's playing the long "revenge-is-a-dish-best-served-cold" game rather than the instant-gratification revenge the Sand Snakes want. On the show, he's just chilling in his chair looking mopey while in the books it's pretty clear he can plot with the best of them.

Seems like Littlefinger's plan is to swoop in with the knights of the Vale to liberate the north, become warden, marry Sansa, rule the world. But it's Littlefinger, so trying to figure his shit out is a fool's errand. Also it's Game of Thrones, so thinking A will always go to C by way of B is also a silly thing to do.

I still remember when I thought Arya was actually gonna go to the Wall.

All of this. And yeah, the whole bedding ceremony thing was brought up multiple times in the show. They foist away what's-his-name and the Frey girl at the Red Wedding, Tyrion threatens Joffrey when he insists upon it, and I think Catelyn mentions Ned Stark threatening anyone who would try it on their wedding night.

In the book you didn't know who he was then either - that was the whole point, it was slowly revealed this "Reek" person was actually Theon and he had been alive and being fucked up by Ramsay all this time. The audience not recognising his character at that point would have played into the whole arc.

Also saying you don't like the notion without actually reading how it was executed isn't a good justification for removing it.

I was originally kind of surprised at the reaction to the episode, but after thinking about it for a while, I can kind of see where complaints may be coming from. I think the one thing you can definitely critique is the focus on Theon versus the horror that is happening to Sansa. I didn’t view him as an audience surrogate at the end of that episode. I viewed him as Theon being tortured again by a sadistic turd sandwich. That’s a problem, to me, if you aren’t thinking of Sansa and what she is going through at that moment. Now, perhaps they intended him to be an audience surrogate, and that is a way to convey what is happening without explicitly showing it, but that doesn’t mean that it was successful. Again, personally as a viewer I was taken out of my fear and horror at Sansa’s plight and instead taken back to Theon, and I don’t think that that is what a scene of that magnitude should be doing necessarily.

Still, I think that the show runners were in a no win situation and did the best they could with what they had. They want to show a horrible event that is similar to what happened to another character in the books, and they did so by trimming and streamlining the story to work with a main character that people really are beginning to love. Sansa has been a character that people have followed since the first episode, and while we may have hated her in the beginning for being a kind of shitty sister, her various tortures and abuses throughout her journey have created a situation where we really want to see her triumph. This is another heaping helping of abuse, and it just feels like she can’t catch a break. Every promise of salvation is left soured and rotting. We know that she deserves better, and it hurts that she is constantly getting some of the worst that this world has to offer.

On the other hand, it was bound to happen. Again, she was painted into this corner and married to one of the most horrible men in Westeros. What was supposed to happen? We knew he was still going to torture both her and Theon after that uncomfortable dinner scene an episode ago, so why did anyone think that he was going to put on a façade once the vows were completed? He has the power and he loves to abuse it. We know this. So I fully expected this scene and was not at all surprised with how it played out.

After talking about it with my husband, I began to wonder if the writers/director/who ever staged the scene the way that they did, tried to do it as tastefully as they could, which sounds preposterous, but hear me out. So people complained about other rapes and abuses in the show, and they’re not going to full stop torture, abuse and rape because it’s really an intrinsic part of the narrative. It would be like taking drinking, smoking and adultery out of Mad Men, it’s just not going to happen considering the timeframe and the characters as we know them. However, they can try to make it less horrific, and maybe they thought having Sansa defiled off-screen was a better option or a more artistic option. Instead of reading it as that, people are now upset that the focus is on Theon watching the horror, instead of the horror itself. Again, no win situation. I think if they show a scene similar to Dany’s wedding night or the Cersei/Jamie scene from last season, we get complaints, but we allude to it off-screen and we get different but just as vociferous complaints.

In the end, I don’t want this to be an event that is more important to the character arc of Theon when it should be Sansa. This happened to her and she should be the focus. I hope that the way they shot it was as an artistic choice, which I actually found quite haunting and effective. I hope it wasn’t filmed in that way to have us focus on the pain of the male character instead of the female character that is actually the victim of the rape. It’s hard to tell without seeing where this goes and what will happen in upcoming episodes. So I am remaining firmly in the camp that sees what happened as an inevitability and am totally cool with it, but depending on how the rest of the season plays out, I may change my mind on it's effectiveness.

Check, check, and check. God damnit.

Hooray for more Ramsay sadism. What an intriguing and not-at-all one-note character he's turned out to be. How about giving him some more screen time? I'm just not sure I've figured out if he's a good guy or bad guy yet. Maybe ten more hours of him doing horrible things would clear things up.

RIP, Darth Sansa. You showed some real promise there for a second as a jaded, sharp-tongued badass who was done taking shit from anyone. Except then the show made you revert to helpless little girl status, and even cemented it symbolically with the return to the red hair. Facepalm.

The Sand Snakes are somehow even worse than I thought they'd be. A whip? Are you shitting me? Yeah, let's make her broke-ass Indiana Jones. That'll be awesome. We're going to lose Bronn because of these piece of shit characters? To poison, no less? At least let the man go down swinging with some dignity to capable opposition.

They're trying really hard to lose me. This season has been awful so far. I'm going to give it a chance to redeem some of this bullshit, but I'm not hopeful. Ellaria and the Sand Snakes are the worst thing to happen to this show. The Dorne king needs to lop their heads off for insolence and make the Lannister/Dorne alliance happen. The sooner, the better. I don't know how they can save the Ramsay storyline at this point. They had a chance, as they could have had Theon semi-redeem himself by killing Ramsay to spare Sansa, but passed on that, so now whatever they do is going to be unsatisfying. I guess Sansa's going to go all damsel-in-distress and light the tower candle, which is a complete disservice to the interesting direction they once appeared to be taking her character. Littlefinger's ploy seems pretty weak overall. His character has always done what it takes to get ahead, but they sure made it seem like he had a soft spot for Cat Stark, and by extension, Sansa, so him throwing her to the wolves doesn't make a whole lot of sense and makes him seem less cunning than he's supposed to be. I sure hope there's more going on there that it appears on the surface. The Arya bits continue to drag and focus on boring "become no one" shit instead of cool assassin training. Tyrian quick-witting his way out of trouble and Jorah seemingly headed for the fighting pits was about the only good scene. Based on how everything else is turning out, though, Jorah will become all grayscale stoneman before he gets there and will just get unceremoniously dumped in Valyria, and they'll cut off Tyrian's junk, because these promising bits of course should be a huge letdown and/or disturbing for shock value. I'd love to be wrong.

I can't believe people are complaining about Sansa getting raped... I barely heard any voices when Theon's penis was chopped off. We see decapitations routinely... but no a woman being raped is absolute worst thing to be done on the show? Christ... this double standard is getting on my nerves. Not to mention that people are complaining that it didn't need to happen when this was done at the very end of the episode: NEWS FLASH PEOPLE, to find out if it makes sense as part of the plot we need to see what happens AFTER IT.

Is nobody going on about how awesome that "cock merchant" line was?

@notnert427: The Dornish will become allies with the Lannisters as soon as the Targaryens, which is never. Their fundamental motivator is bringing down the Lannisters. If you have enjoyed the show up to this point but hate the direction it's going you should read the books. None of the dumb shit they have developed this season even takes place in the books. Funny how everybody started complaining as soon as they started heavily deviating from the original text.

@giantlizardking: Do you think the change in direction is intended to spice things up for the book readers(or not ruin the books for them) or is there something more sinister at work? AKA I like to imagine i'm watching a "designed show" not one of those things that never ends.

@gamefreak9: I don't know which talk backs or reviews you were reading, but I remember many vocal complaints about Theon's continued, horrific abuse. Just because you somehow missed them doesn't mean they didn't happen.

Just in case you are actually interested-

Game of Thrones' Worst Scene Yet? - The Atlantic

Let's begin with the obvious: the titillation and (presumed) mutilation of Theon Greyjoy. Last week, Ross, you noted that all too often when Benioff and Weiss insert their own material it tends toward exploitation, and they could hardly have proven your point more emphatically than they did with this scene. Nameless female extras show up and immediately disrobe, arouse Theon with a combination of anatomical flattery and straightforward friction, and then—toooot!—in a twist sure to surprise no one (least of all Theon), Mad Mr. "Have You Guessed My Name Yet?" shows up with a silly horn and a wicked blade, like the infernal offspring of Harpo Marx and Jack the Ripper.

We Really Feel Bad for 'Game of Thrones' Theon Greyjoy...

“People who get brought down to earth tend to get humbled, so maybe for us to see more evidence of that would be great.”

Does that mean there might be hope for Reek yet? Seriously? We can’t believe we’re saying this but: please, Game of Thrones. Please. Give this man a little bit of sanctuary, if only for a moment. I mean you chopped his damn dick off, jeez!

Watching the Throne: The Best and Worst of 'Game of Thrones' Season 3

With no sense of place or reason, though, Theon's ongoing destruction quickly became a distraction from the show's other, far more compelling storylines. Whenever episodes would switch into his segments, Game of Thrones lost its way, feeling like the reels had switched into glossily shot footage from some medieval snuff film. Or, as HitFix television blogger extraordinaire Alan Sepinwall once put it, The Passion of the Greyjoy.

Game of Thrones - The Bear and the Maiden Fair AV Club Review

Theon’s torturer comes up with a new and even more diabolical way to torture Theon, then he does it. (This week, he would seem to cut off Theon’s testicles and penis, but the camera blurred out before we could see it.) We get it, show: The world is nasty and brutish and harsh, and not even a turncoat like Theon Greyjoy deserves what he gets. The after-effects of this, as portrayed in the books (and I’m not spoiling anything, I promise), are fairly interesting, but there’s a reason Martin summarized or elided much of this on the page: Endless torture sequences don’t make for terribly exciting fiction, and that’s more or less bearing out here.

I remember various talk backs on Reddit too, but I don't have the time or inclination to find everything I read 2 seasons ago. Suffice it to say, Theon's torture was talked about and a lot of people didn't like it and didn't want to see it continued.

I think the main issue isn't that it's a man versus a woman, though that may be a factor with some people, but that it was a very hated character who we viewed as a villain versus a relative innocent. It would be having similar actions happening to Gaston in Beauty and the Beast versus Belle, or something bad happening to a baby versus an adult. Different situations illicit different emotional reactions. For better or worse, people hated Theon Greyjoy, so his torture was seen as a comeuppance, not as a crime. We began to feel for him when we knew that he was truly and deeply sorry for what he did to the Starks. Sansa was a snooty girl obsessed with being wed to a future king. She wasn't a criminal, a murderer or bad person. She may have had a poor attitude, but she was a teenage girl that was trying, for the most part, to survive one bad situation after another. Her plight, though less outlandishly horrific obviously, may be viewed as worse by some, considering who she is and what she has done in the story to this point. Is that fair? No, I don't think so, but I think it is a part of human nature - to want to protect the weak and to hate harm being brought against the weak, and to also crave vengeance for the wronged, and Theon had wronged a great many people up to that point in the story.

Well, it seemed like he was pro-hooking up the Dorne prince and the Lannister girl. To what end, I don't know. FWIW, I don't really care if the Dornish do or do not ally with the Lannisters; I was just hoping whatever play the Dorne king is making involves needing the Lannister girl for more than petty revenge, ultimately resulting in him killing off Ellaria and her shitty Sand Snakes. They need to go. NOW.

That's interesting to hear about the books. Did GRRM kill off Oberyn? Regardless, whatever he did with the Dorne storyline pretty much HAS to be better than the show. If it's as you say, and all this Ramsay and Sand Snake bullshit is purely the show, then I'll change my tune and say they need to go on hiatus until the next book drops. I'm rapidly losing confidence in the show of late, and the closing episodes need to really step it up to salvage what has thus far been a craptastic season.

@gamefreak9: I think it was so they can speed things up and get to the same destination that GRRM is heading for without having to cover all the material in Feast For Crows and Dance of Dragons that some considered to be dull. But it sounds like people like the replacement material even less. I don't see why they didn't just cover the same story beats just at an accelerated pace. I get the need to consolidate some characters, but man they sure have removed a lot of the coolest elements, characters and points of intrigue from the books.

Also it seems like they thought the books didn't have enough rape, so they needed to add more of that?

@jadegl: I don't quite think the narrative is the same. I've read a bunch of posts(not GB) by people saying they will quit watching because rape was used as a plot device.

Personally I hate Sansa way more than Theon. While Theon may be a dickhead sometimes, in Fiction, that is a far lesser crime than being boring. Sansa is the most boring character in GOT, her death would only be a positive to the entertainment value of the show. In contrast, Jeoffrey was a big loss, his cruelty was something interesting to watch.

@gamefreak9 said:

Theon murdered little boys, desecrated their corpses and lied about their parentage. That's not just a dickhead move. Just because he was tortured doesn't suddenly absolve him of all of his sins. it's because of those sins that his redemptive arc matters. If he was just a jerk, this wouldn't mean anything and the torture would be even more objectionable.

I don't like Sansa or Theon, really. I don't have any skin in the game when it comes to these characters. But one was painted as a villain before his torture and one has been painted as a constant victim. If you can't see the narrative difference and why people may react more poorly to Sansa being hurt than Theon being hurt 2 seasons ago, I don't know what to say.

As an added point, I don't "enjoy" scenes of extreme torture, abuse or harm. I don't watch the show to see that stuff. I watch it because the show transcends those moments, for the most part, and strings together a very interesting and "real" feeling fantasy story, relatively free from elves and magic stuff. I also want to see the villains get what is coming to them, but also I don't mind that the show subverts those baser desires and makes me feel bad for wanting that once I get it, such as what they did with Theon.

I really like a few characters completely, and even those have their faults - Arya, Jorah, Tyrion, Melisandre, Davos and Stannis.

@notnert427: Yeah there is the aspect of the betrothal to the young Dorne prince I forgot about. I don't want to say anything else because I don't know what the show has revealed beyond that. But yes, Obyrn died at the end of Storm Of Swords.

Ok, I'm diving into this thread now as I'm caught up. It's a lot of set-up in this season so far. Let's churn every last piece of malignant plot that could ever happen to everyone you care about... then reap the hatred? I haven't read the books so I don't really know. Maybe it gets even darker.

Tyrion and Jorah saves the season for me. And to some extent, Arya.

I won't say much about the Sansa rape scene as it's been discussed at length in the thread, but I didn't find it necessary. More evil character building for Ramsay isn't required, and more torture for Sansa or Theon certainly isn't either. The only way it could be interesting is what they do with it. Does Sansa use this to maneuver into power over the North by appealing to her Stark heritage with the old clans? If so, it better happen damn quick, because if the season ends with Sansa damseled in Winterfell I'd be pretty annoyed. I'm expecting Stannis to come bust up the Bolton party, but they've been giving him so much interesting character depth lately that I half expect Ramsay to blow his head off with a shotgun and Roose to eat his wife and daughter, while Davos is forced to watch. Maybe I shouldn't give them ideas.

I agree that Dorne has been God-awful. It's the first time I've ever felt that the show is slipping into just terrible quality. Most of the past inconsequential storylines (remember when we all thought Beric Dondarrion and the BWB was going to amount to something? Yeah...) have at least been well acted and written, but holy shit. Jaime and Bronn, two of the most King's Landing motherfuckers this side of Cersei herself, are going to waltz into the royal gardens of Dorne and chat up the fucking prince and a Lannister princess? That's insane. The goddamn Kingslayer is going to walk around unnoticed in a city that reviles him and his family, the family responsible for the murder of two members of their royal family? That is truly ridiculous. Jaime's quip about improvising a plan to get Myrcella out of Dorne wasn't funny, it seemed like it belonged in a fucking buddy cop movie. Completely out of step with GoT's tone, and the storyline is making Jaime look like a bumbling idiot. Why, exactly, is Bronn playing straight man in this duo?

The Sand Snakes suck and are going to suck forever it seems, which is a HUGE bummer because I wanted vindication for Oberyn and instead we get a five person fight that was extremely poorly choreographed and directed. And then out of FUCKING NOWHERE seemingly the entire Dornish royal guard convenes on their ballet recital. Where the hell were these dopes when Jaime and Bronn were playing hide and seek with the royalty they were supposed to be guarding?! Do they really station absolutely no guards in the Royal Garden, or at any entrance to it? Prince Doran and the Captain of the Guard are staring at the prince and Myrcella a scene prior! If Jaime and Bronn snuck around the city cleverly, show us that!

Arya and Jaqen was more padding. Great, now she's ready to be trained. Let's start that.

It's really getting grim. They have to stick an amazing landing on this season. I'm unsure if they can pull it off. Not even sure how I'd like these storylines to end.

Now that I've trashed on the episode a fair amount, here's what I liked: Sparrows and Cersei! Man is King's Landing refreshing this season. What a great job they've done making the Sparrows super threatening in a believable way. This is the GoT I expect. It really feels like Loras and Margaery are in real peril, and Tommen acted completely in character, being frightened to do anything. The return of Olenna was predictably fantastic, and I'm interested to see how she's going to get the Tyrell kids out of this one. Even if they escape execution, however, I feel like they can't come out of this the same. How could Margaery return to being Queen after this sort of dragging through the mud? The characters are in actual peril! There is certain to be real consequences from this storyline! D&D need to focus on putting more characters into this sort of situation. Also, I love how Cersei can't see the Sparrow-driven train barreling five hundred mph at her, and I relish when she has to deal with what happens when you're a known incestuous individual who put religious zealots into power over the King.

Baelish in King's Landing! Contrary to some opinions in the thread, I think his plan is stellar. He holds the Eyrie and is making a play for the entire North. He's trying to install Sansa and get the North to revolt, wherein he will marry her and hold the North. After that, he maneuvers for the throne by inciting the North to rebel, pinning the marrying of Sansa to Ramsay on the Lannisters. No one but Sansa, Roose, and Cersei know that Baelish arranged Sansa's marriage, and I'm betting he's expecting at least Roose to kick the bucket after Stannis attacks. If Ramsay dies as well, than Sansa is de facto warden by marriage, as Ramsay would have inherited the title from Roose upon his death. I think that Baelish telling Cersei that he's going to kill Roose and ask for the Warden title is either a backup plan or simply misdirection to his real plans involving Sansa.

Tyrion and Jorah were great this episode as well. Glad to see some character development for Jorah when he learnt of his father's passing, and I'm also glad to see the two getting fast-tracked to Slaver's Bay so we can ditch the long walk. I would have appreciated if this happened last episode instead, but maybe the stoneskin will pay off for Jorah in an interesting way. Great writing for Tyrion in this part too, as he single-handedly saves both their hides in a way Jorah never could have. Good demonstration of Tyrion's power and cunning after two seasons of him being a prisoner.

Boy, that was a lot! Maybe I should start making this a weekly blog post.

@quid_pro_bono said:

If Ramsay dies as well, than Sansa is de facto warden by marriage, as Ramsay would have inherited the title from Roose upon his death. I think that Baelish telling Cersei that he's going to kill Roose and ask for the Warden title is either a backup plan or simply misdirection to his real plans involving Sansa.

Wouldn't it pass to Fat Walda before Sansa?

Oh I completely forgot about her! Jeez.

...Stannis kills her too. Let's just, for the sake of argument about Baelish's hypothetical plan, say that Baelish is hoping Stannis kills all the Boltons and their crew.

I don't think you're thinking this through. How would you have had them introduce the Reek character? Would you want them to hire a new actor? Or maybe have Alfie Allen wear a bunch of prosthetics to disguise himself from the audience? Or just put a hood over him and shoot him from behind all the time? Half of your audience is going to recognize this character before you want them to, and the other half will have completely forgotten him after two seasons, requiring some lame flashback to the second season to remind them of why it matters who he is. There is no revelation to be had here.

All you need to do in a book is call a character by a different name and they are perfectly disguised. That's why it works in a book. It does not work in a TV show.

Instead the show-runners opted to provide book readers further insight into the different ways that Theon is broken, physically, mentally, and emotionally. At the same time they kept the most casual fans familiar with a character that would later become more important again. This is meaningful content for the entire audience. I certainly don't think they needed to return to this situation in every single episode of that season though. And they replaced the Reek reveal with the "mystery" of who Ramsay is. It's pretty obvious is you're paying close attention, but I would bet most of the audience weren't sure of this until pretty late in the season. I'm not even sure Roose Bolton had been named when he volunteered to send his bastard to reclaim Winterfell, and most people aren't keeping track of what's on whose banners.

Sam got his. Cercei got hers. Saw awesome boobs.

5/5

Best use of the Sand Snakes yet.

@corporalgregg: @alkusanagi: Could not agree more with these first couple posts about the new episode. Glad I could get in a post before people start another round of writing their essays about why they continue to be disappointed with this season.

How did Cercei not see this coming from day one? Her father was right about her. Girl is dumb.

Hah, been waiting for this religious nonsense to bite Cersei back in the ass. I was worried we'd have to wait another week for Tyrion and Jorah's story to get anywhere, but it's nice to see their meeting happened this week.

This season's had some weird direction I've found. Moments where the camera seems to hang a little too long, or a shot looks awkward, or the sound effects and ambience don't seem to mesh together well. I dunno, it just doesn't feel as well put together in spots.

That is basically a short summation of my feelings.

My heart was pounding during Sams scene, he was such a bad ass even if he was getting beat, his getting back up and the wolf buddy coming to back him up was bad fucking ass and I've been wanting him to 'get' with Gilly for a while, fuck yeah Sam.

I love the mind games with the old sparrow dude this season, and this episode had him mess with two of the top people in the series, fantastic.

And when the short haired cute Sand Snake girl first appeared I absolutely thought she was the hottest girl on the show annnnnnnnd boobs, sexy boobs.

So, yeah, fucking awesome episode, plus got to see Jorah bust a head or two, fucking ay.