On the Marvel Cinematic Universe

After watching a bit of the first Avengers movie tonight, it kind of struck me: this is the most ambitious and fairly insane venture in the history of the cinematic medium. The first 10 or so movies in the MCU have been successful, especially considering the first Avengers movie, but to expect 25 or more films, most of which will have a budget of 150 million dollars or so, to all make a return on their investment...it's fairly amazingly ballsy. No one really knows if Benedict Cumberbatch is going to make a Dr. Strange movie actually work, assuming that 20 million people are actually willing to pay to see a Dr. Strange movie. Will people show up to to a Black Panther or a Captain Marvel or an Inhumans movie if they're not familiar with the characters? Can marketing overcome the knowledge shortfall here four or five times in a row? Was Guardians of the Galaxy an outlier or an indicator that Disney's marketing team really knows what they're doing and can keep it up for the next decade?

It's weird. It's totally weird. Disney's making what is maybe the biggest gamble in the history of motion pictures, and they're quite literally betting billions of dollars on something that might not play out. I pretty much love everything they've done with the Marvel Universe so far, but it's easy to see how people might get tired of event comic movies in a year or two. I'm sure there are people at Disney who are taking some nuclear-grade ulcer medicine at the moment as they have to commit the hundreds of millions of dollars to these movies years before they're actually made. Good for them. Life in the movie business is based on risks, and they're doing their best to mitigate or play those risks as they come along.

Anyway: Age of Ultron. I liked that movie. I want to see it again. It was a bit long for my tastes, but I'll pay good money to see it twice before it leaves theaters. That's what I wanted to say here. Here's an image from a Box Office Winner's League that I didn't wind up posting because I was busy.

You and I remember Budapest very differently.

I agree. Age of Ultron was pretty good! Not as good as the first Avengers, but I didn't really expect it to be.

James Spader should be more robots.

Absolutely. It's insane. They're making a cinematic TV series where every episode costs hundreds of millions of dollars.

I think the most shocking thing about the Marvel movies is something that comic books fans miss, and that is who the hell are these characters.

Prior to all of this most people didn't have a very clear idea who or what Iron man, Thor, Black Widow or Hawkeye were. Nor do I think you could have said most people would give a damn about ANY these characters as movies characters that would fill seats. Superman, sure. Batman, sure. Hulk, well okay. However, most of the Marvel universe is opaque to the general public.

So my thinking is Dr. Strange, Black Panther and Captain Marvel will do fine simply because...why they hell not. If you get great actors for those roles people will fill seats if the movies are made well. At this point Marvel movies just as a concept is hot, "Oh another one of these? Great, lets see how this connects to the other stuff!"

I'm kinda sick of the seemingly never ending influx of superhero movies/TV series honestly, and I haven't even watched that many of 'em. I wonder how long it'll take before audiences finally reach a breaking point and oversaturation sets in.

@monkeyking1969: I feel the same way. Before the movies, I thought Captain America was a crazy boring character, who I instantly skipped over any time I saw him in a video game. Now, he's my favorite one of the crew. While Thor wasn't as big a turn around, I also hated Thor before the movies, but now he's completely fine. Honestly, I've enjoyed all the heroes, which is far more than I can say for pre-MCU. I think people don't acknowledge just how impressive the whole insanity is often enough.

Im loving the whole thing, i've been reading these comics for years and to finally see them done properly on the big screen and continue to do well is incredible. There is always the risk that people will get tired of the connected universe thing but honestly, did any of the casuals watching Guardians of the Galaxy even know it was meant to take place in the same world as The Avengers? I'd bet good money they didnt, and probably dont even care, its not like we never had comic book movies before (Blade, Batman etc) and there are a LOT of movies folk dont even know used to be comics (Scott Pilgrim, Red, Wanted). I still get surprised looks from people when i remind them that the Walking Dead started out as a comic, the world cant totally take more.

I feel like Ant Man is going to be the big test for them. That movie looks...I dunno, but I'm certainly not expecting anything spectacular. I just think that if they can get Ant Man to do well, then they can do anything. I suppose that's assuming Ant Man is lousy, for all I know it could be a genuinely great movie. I have my doubts, but we'll see.

That said, as "ballsy" as this stuff is from a certain point of view, it's also kind of not in another. I mean, yes, they are risking hundreds of millions of dollars on each of these movies, but these movies are also pretty formulaic in a kinda cynical way. I mean, I'm not really sure how to explain it because I don't often write about movies, but the content of these movies isn't that risky. Know what I mean? They're all just kind of the same, big fun summer blockbuster, just with different people in them. That make sense? I dunno.

I've still enjoyed most of them, and I'm definitely looking forward to Civil War next year. Though, I was kinda disappointed with Age of Ultron, and as stated, I'm leery of Ant Man. So who knows.

We should be talking about Fury Road instead! ;)

I'm getting burnt out on them, to be honest. I absolutely loved everything about them at first, but now there are so many coming out that I just can't keep up. Never saw Iron Man 3, haven't seen Age of Ultron yet, and I finally just got around to checking out Guardians of the Galaxy.

Not much of a cinema goer, so I'm behind on the movies, but my favorite part of the Marvel "Cinematic" Universe is actually Agents of SHIELD on TV. It started out pretty poorly as an aimless C-tier villain of the week show, but then towards the last third of season 1 - as it started reacting to the changes to SHIELD in The Winter Soldier - it got real good, and just kept on at full speed though season 2. I think it's currently one of the best shows on TV.

I wonder what will happen after its first financial failure. It shouldn't matter, but the media will be all over it and that might end up affecting what people think about Marvel movies.

@mooseymcman: Come over here and we can go on a date to see Ant-Man.

@karlpilkington: I don't think that's appropriate, given that you're seeing someone else! :O

Compare the Rotten Tomatoes score of Avengers to Avengers: Age of Ultron. The critical consensus is already starting to turn against these movies

I maybe sick of them now, but its hard to say as Winter Soldier is my fa orite of the bunch and Guardians is an amazing film and I kind of don't put it on the same category as the other films, and both were released last year.

While it is indeed a massive gamble in the absolute sense, it's not as big of a gamble in the relative sense. If it doesn't pan out or if superhero films crash and burn Disney won't go bankrupt. Not by a long shot.

I don't really go in for comic book movies, but I have long admired from a distance the moves Marvel is making in that space. It's really unprecedented and I'm sure cinema history books will be written about it in the future.

I think Marvel was smart with their recent license purchases. Both Star Wars and Marvel have giant universes where they can potentially make many spin-off movies without the fear of creating a new stand alone franchise and it already being tied to an established universe. In terms of the Marvel movies themselves they've been pretty hit and miss as of late but I think the movie industry as of late has been pretty bad with their blockbusters.

Can I just watch Mad Max: Fury Road 10 times in a row instead?

I enjoyed Age of Ultron but it had some issue and felt like it had too many cooks in kitchen syndrome.

Guardians of the Galaxy is still my favourite, Its one of only marvel films that could just be stand alone film.

I think Disney/Marvel are going to Activision the hell out of this. I'm already feeling MCU fatigue and it hit me hard while watching Age of Ultron. Daredevil was refreshing because it was darker than the other hero stories and GotG was fun but I'm burnt out on the rest. It sucks because I'm a big Robert Downey Jr fan but the movies just don't do it for me. They have 11 movies coming out in the next 4 years if you include Ant-Man. It makes me worried that Disney is going to do the same with Star Wars.

Maybe I'm just tired of the "safe" hero movies because I'm looking forward to Batman v Superman.

It is my opinion that the key to success will be executing the correct KIND of movies, across the genre spectrum. So far they have succeeded when they have tried, in the espionage thriller The Winter Soldier and the sci-fi epic Guardians of the Galaxy. They are willing to hand the keys to to the right people, no matter how niche they are in the scope of something as otherwise homogenous as Disney - James Gunn, namely, who even squeezed in a Lloyd Kaufman cameo. This is the former Troma guy who made ultra-violent schlock like Super and Slither, and they let him direct a blockbuster Disney movie. If they keep it up, they have the capacity to mine Marvel's back catalog for fantastic material across all genres - they just have to keep taking risks on writers and directors who can handle the material well, and let them make the KIND of movie that is appropriate for the source material.

troof.

i saw age of ultron and then mad max the next day. as you can probably imagine, the juxtaposition didn't do avengers 2 any favors. age of ultron ticked all the boxes to be a successful marvel movie- but i found it largely unremarkable. the character development felt cursory, and cg-superhero-fight-sequences don't impress like they used to.

it's a well oiled machine that functions incredibly well, given the consistent quality they've been able to maintain. but i think i'm full up- until someone does something interesting a superhero movie.

@rorie Did you read that there's apparently ~1 hour of footage left on the cutting room floor from Age of Ultron that might make it into a director's cut version once it hits home media? I'd go see it in theaters again, but that's the version I really want to hunker down and dive into. There were, uh, elements of that film that I felt did not get the room to breathe and be fully fleshed out that they deserved; too much setting up the next wave of movies, not enough this story standing on its own. An hour of extra footage could probably fix that.

Or, you know, make the movie an unbearable Wathcmen: Ultimate Cut level slog. Guess we'll see

@mellotronrules: Yeah, I think the visual elements of the movie are a trademark of the franchise. Watching all of my favorite superheroes live and in action will never be old per-say, but you hit the nail on the head: nothing interesting ever happens. Unlike the comics, there is never any loss, consequence, or tragedy that happens to any of the characters. It's like watching Saturday morning cartoons where the hero suffers a slight setback but there is never any indication that they might actually, you know, fail.

To your point about "making investments on characters that may not be as popular" (to paraphrase you): I wasn't really familiar at all with Guardians of the galaxy beyond the characters that had been in Marvel vs Capcom games, and pretty much the same for Avengers (except a few cartoon shows I had seen before- like Iron Man).

I think it really comes down to the stories they tell, and how well they tell them. I know a lot of people who don't know anything about comics, but really like the movies being made about characters from comic books (and I don't mean even just young people- middle aged and elderly as well). So there is a wide audience there- as surprising as that is. I think a big part of that is how different they can be from your average film. It also helps that so far they've (for the most part) done a good job at telling interesting stories.

I think it's a fairly decent bet they're making, and I think it could work for a very long time as long as the quality stays high (even though, at times, some of the movies aren't that good or even boring).

I didn't really like Age of Ultron, and I may be done with The Avengers, but I'm not done with comic book films (having watched many for almost 3 decades now). I still love those, and the concepts behind those when they tell interesting stories. So I am interested to see the films about characters I don't know just to see what stories they tell. Hopefully for the people producing those they are interesting films and not boring, uninteresting, trash.

I heard that a over an hour of footage from Age of Ultron was cut from the movie, also seemed to recall reading somewhere that all the cut footage would be in the blu-ray release. Also Hawkeye was great in that movie.

Ant Man will probably be the first true test. Everyone said Guardians was a risk, but they had a raccoon with a giant ass gun to lead with. Ant Man, despite all his comics history, looks like a 100% retread of Iron Man 1.

I'm a huge Marvel fan and enjoyed most of the movies, but even I can't get that excited about Ant Man.

This is what passes as risk in cinema nowadays? Depressing.

@mellotronrules: Interesting superhero movies you can think of? Would like some recommendations.
I'd say:

Darkman (pulpy goodness)
Hellboy (inventive, with a tender love story)
Unbreakable (postmodern silliness)
Hulk (people surprised when Ang Lee makes an Ang Lee film?)
The Rocketeer (lovely Art Deco designs)
Dark Knight (Wildly entertaining Joker)
Superman II (Zod!)
Batman (Prince!)
The Incredibles (better version of Watchmen than Snyder's steaming pile of turd)

I super interested in seeing what Dr. Strange, Black Panther, and Captain Marvel movies will be like. The sequels not as much. I thought AoU was fine, but coming off of Guardians which was just a fun as hell movie it felt a little lackluster.

Disney is actually going to try and pull this off twice because they plan to do a completely integrated universe with Star Wars; all movies, comics, novels, TV shows and games are supposed to fit in the canon of the franchise.

The real question is, will anybody look back on any of the Marvel movies fondly in 20-30 years? I can't help but compare the whole thing to the popularity of disaster epics of the 70s, which was as much of a cinematic craze as superheroes are today. Those movies were enormous blockbuster smashes in their day: Poseidon Adventure, Towering Inferno, Airport, Earthquake, Hindenburg, King Kong '76, etc. Every one of them was an enormous cultural phenomenon in their time. But does anyone remember them fondly today? Only the Poseidon Adventure really, and even that is questionable.

That's the way it goes with these big cultural phenomena: in the end, only a single standout tends to survive to be remembered after it's all over. In 30 years when we look back on the comic book boom, what will be the one movie we remember? Honestly, I don't think it'll be a Marvel movie. It'll probably be The Dark Knight.

I think if it weren't for Guardians of the Galaxy, I'd say my excitement for Marvel movies has waned significantly. Phase 2 hasn't been that stellar: Iron Man 3 was just as mediocre, if not worse than Iron Man 2, the same with Thor: The Dark World. The Winter Soldier had a game-changing plot twist but other than it didn't blow my socks off. Age of Ultron is just basically more Avengers, which is fine but I expected more. Trailers aren't doing Ant-Man any favours but I hope I'm wrong.

Did Rorie ghost-bump this thread? Collusion!?

Avengers 2 was alright, definitely not a see twice in the theater kind of movie though; maybe a put on TV randomly and hopefully be at one of the good parts movie in the vein of Iron Man 2.

Someone's still going to have to explain to me how "incredibly-skilled archer" and "super-spy with pistol" fit into a team fighting a giant army of droids, especially when one of those teammates is the literal Norse God of Thunder. Also, it would have been super convenient if Pietro and Wanda happened to have a dad who could manipulate all kinds of metal.

Easy jokes aside, I enjoyed Avengers AoU if only for the Danny Elfman soundtrack and James Spader chewing up the scenery as he does these days (seriously, he made The Blacklist watchable!), but I guess I'm getting tired of the MCU being the main focus of everything Marvel to the point that The Mouse is almost literally airbrushing the X-Men and Fantastic Four out of Marvel history because their movie rights belong to someone else.

I also had the experience of watching Age of Ultron one weekend and Mad Max the next, and I definitely felt like I was seeing two diverging visions of the future of action movies unfolding in front of my eyes: one where success is achieved through painstaking craft, big risks, and a seemingly fanatical passion for the medium that makes you excited for everything film still has the potential to be, and one where success is achieved through making movies that are good enough to get by on cultural momentum and the appeal of stories that people already know, presented in a slightly remixed though fastidiously inoffensive way. (Star Trek has also gone down this path now, which leaves me anxiously wondering which way Star Wars is going to lean.)

Which isn't to say that Age of Ultron was bad, but I definitely feel like the Marvel movies have fallen into a formula which is getting harder to ignore.

It's not even necessarily a plot formula so much as a formula of tone - snarky humor, breaking up mild peril, amid a racing doomsday plot, ignoring the fact that no character big enough to have their own movies is ever in any danger of being killed, and then in the "secret" bonus scene at the end my friend who likes comics gets all excited because they showed some other dude who is going to be in yet another one of these movies. Also Stan Lee is there.

I guess what I'm saying is that I would characterize the billions of dollars Disney is putting into the Marvel Universe less as a "risk" and more as "aggressive investment in a bull market." The question is whether the bubble is ever going to burst, and what will be left when it does.

@kevin_cogneto, I feel like you make a really good point in this regard.