Regarding Russia

There was a thread today that got locked supporting Putin that was frankly flame bait. I'm making this post to create civil discussion.

As an American, the annexation of Crimea is not what concerns me about Putin. Crimea was Russian land until the 60's. Khrushchev added the land to Ukraine without considering that the USSR may one day be dissolved. Majority of the people living there are ethnically Russian.

What concerns me about contemporary Russia is its extreme sense of nationalism. Leaders have always used nationalism to manipulate their people. The country's become extremely conservative and hostile towards minorities, homosexuals, and women.

During the Olympics, Pussy Riot was protesting in public, performing a song called "Putin Will Make You Love The Motherland". A conservative Russian group started whipping the women in the street while the police just stood there and watched.

Voltaire once said "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." Men and women, heterosexuals and homosexuals, westerners and Russians, all deserve to have the right of self expression. It is apparent that Mr. Putin does not believe so.

I hope that thread produces meaningful debate rather than a flame war. Let's be civil.

From what I notice, the level of Nationalism in Russia is not that different from that expressed by the USA. Obviously the Russians have a far larger inferiority complex and general insecurity which makes this nationalism far more dangerous.

I would agree that the levels of free speech, personal freedom and expression in Russia are dangerously low and it must be a scary place to live if you are anything other than white and straight and Putin-supporting.

Regarding the whole Ukraine thing however, I do think that the West could be a little more sensitive and try to see things more from the Russians point of view. As they see it, a country with a democratically elected (no matter how courrpt) leader has been overthrown by and group with some very unsavoury right wing elements and the country split in two in a dangerous and unstable way with encouragement and overtures from the EU/NATO. I think the Russians have the right to be alarmed, although they are abusing the situation in just as self-interested a way as the west.

Imagine for a moment that Ukraine was Mexico or Canada and the government had just been brought down by a violent group who wanted to fall in with a new Russian/Eastern aligned bloc, or were just planning being a bit Socialist. Sometimes I think the Russians have some legitimacy in their claims of always being prodded and humiliated by the west. Again, I don't think they are victims by any means, but the West doesn't always act in an appropriate fashion either.

The rampant nationalism in countries like Russia and America is absolutely a serious concern.

Racism and homophobia is a pretty big problem around the world, singling out Russia isn't really fair.

I have to say though, I'm a bit surprised this Russia Ukraine thing seems to escalate to new levels each week. While I'd like to believe the pro-Russian supporters in Ukraine aren't backed by Putin, I have no doubt that they are. I do think that is a much larger issue than something like Pussy Riot. Until Obama, the US leaders seemed rather homophobic themselves.

This is how the Terminator started. Aslo, Russia sucks. Lets face it. They are like a bigger version of North Korea. So full of WTF moments and are responsible for many a "you serious bro?" faces.

At least Americans are full of war weariness and their nationalism won't matter unless someone attacks the USA - which won't happen.

I doubt Russians want to see imperialism again either. I think Moscow saw lots of protests against the occupation of Crimea

@wolverine: To be quite honest, I don't quite know what you hope to discuss. I was in that thread last night, and as you said, it was a real crapshoot. It's so tiring to hear and try to reasonably discuss the many ways in which people try to justify the actions of men like Putin.

What is there to discuss? How much we dislike or like Putin? Whether we think bad things are bad?

I'm really not sure what the point of this topic is either. The original post seems more like a collection of bullet points from presentation or a wikipedia article than anything else.

@wolverine I'll leave this open for now I guess, but if you want to start "civil discussion" then you need to do more than just list a few generalities without taking a position or asking any clearly defined questions. Especially in topics such as this.

why do we need to discuss russia at all? This is a game site we should be talking about how to ask out girls or the new animes that are out and how much they suck and aren't the golden days of dbz and shit like that.

Having studied Russian history from the mid-1800's to now, pretty heavily. I can say with confidence that Russia is going to become a major concern to the world within the next 10 years. If something isn't done soon. History is repeating itself with this hyper-nationalistic, hyper-imperialistic nation. The idea that they are invading different areas "to protect ethnic Russians" is a really horrible argument. Though, the world isn't dumb enough to think that this is the truth Plus, (obviously) the uprisings in the Ukraine are the work of the GRU. (Russian Foreign Intelligence, like the CIA)

Don't hate the Russia. Hate da Putin.

Whenever I saw the current situation on TV, regarding the Ukrainian protests, the anti-Russia side appears to be very similar to a Nazi group. Ironically, Russia's attitudes to minorities is similar to the Nazis, however I don't think they are going to gas their people (or maybe they will). So basically what I am saying is both sides seem quite hateful and present themselves in a tough-convervative manner.

Admittedly I stopped following this spectacle and forgot some details, but that is due to realising their were no 'good' sides. But I see Russia as the better of the two. If I were to explore this event further I may change my mind though as I really don't know what's best for Ukraine. What's worrying is the people that should know may not.

Russia is a big place. "Hating Russia" is kind of nonsense.

With that said, Eastern Europe for better or worse has been shaped by Imperial Russia and then by the Soviet Union. Poland has done a good job getting out of under the shadow and thumb of Russia but doing so has made conservatives and hardliners in Russia uneasy. Having Ukraine do the same thing would probably freak even more of them out. This would be like if Canada wanted to have nothing to do with the US and actively sought alliances with China and succeed then Mexico starts making rumblings about getting becoming very friendly with China.

I think it is inevitable that Russia's influence wanes because the only real influence they have is energy which is a fickle way to build relationships (hint: Look at how the US treats Mid-East Asia). It isn't that far fetch to see that these actions by Putin are a way to distract from internal problems. So far taking over Crimea is popular in Russia because it literally cost the Russian people nothing. It might not be so popular if people start dying or people start boycotting Russian energy or they gain a lot of debt or baggage. Also Putin should be wary if even China, which has classically taken a non-interventionist stance, is suspicious about how interventionist Russia policy has suddenly become.

@dudeglove: I may share your skepticism regarding the potential for discussing this here, but uh... there really is no reason to be kind of a dick to him. You make some effort to give him better information, but it's wrapped up in a boatload of know-it-all assholery.

He doesn't seem to be someone trying to suggest that he knows everything, as he actually expressed an interest in discussing this and getting different perspectives. He seems to want to learn more in a civil discussion on a topic that actually matters. Just because he may not initially appear as informed as you doesn't mean you or anyone else has to talk to him like he's trash. I know you are well-versed in talking about this and the larger history involved, but that doesn't entitle you to bully or mock other members.

You've shown in other threads that you can give info and news without treating others like shit. Instead of all this, maybe you can help him and others actually better understand the situation. I'm sure they'd gain from your perspective.

@dudeglove: I think that's decent advice. I wish you could have offered that initially instead(when you aren't being abusive toward people, you're pretty cool! heh), but yeah, we're still on the same page regarding questioning the purpose and quality of this thread. As MB said, maybe something can still come out of it. We'll see.

Agreed, and can pretty much be used to describe the majority of countries leaders/governments, Putin and his government seem to be a bunch of assholes, but I'm sure there are plenty of nice Russian citizens.
Rinse and repeat for the rest of the world.

Remember when this was a video game website?

A Russian war in Crimea is the setting of Lock On: Modern Air Combat. Is that videogame enough?

(also, having one small, currently unpopular thread about something going on in the world today isn't preventing a dozen other Dark Souls II threads from getting replies)

The point was more that blind nationalism, unquestioning patriotism is a danger to free people wherever it happens. It's an ideology which focuses on what divides people instead of uniting them, which is fine for shitty governments looking for an existential threat but for the actual interests of ordinary people? It's a distraction at best.

I find these Eastern European countries to be scary. That is all.

I work in a museum with guests and groups from all over the world. Groups of Russian teenagers scare me, the other guests don't. They do NOTHING wrong, but they make me afraid inside.

Thank you.

@singingmenstrual: I just hope for that museum's sake that you are nothing more than a janitor.

"They do NOTHING wrong, but they make me afraid inside."

Sounds like you are a pretty pathetic individual. Why would you get a job at a museum if you are so close minded?

@mrfalcon: I'm kidding

Why is anyone (by anyone I mean the American press and the majority of UN mouthpieces) surprised that a man who was high ranking KGB during the Cold War is a fan of nationalism and collusion? This should have been expected and frankly it's surprising to me that it took this long for him to annex a sovereign country. Also, you know what Russia is historically terrible at doing? Managing fucking land. Ask anyone in Uzbekistan.

And the term "ethnically Russian" is a designation that was created for this type of situation only. People in Crimea might be culturally Russian - but they are ethnically Slavic, as are both Ukrainians and Russians.

@detectivespecial: I think there also some Tatars in the mix, but no one asked them what they wanted. I don't know, the whole thing is a mess. I've been to Crimea once a long time ago and I can see why the Russians are keen to grab it, the place was quite lovely (at least the part where I was).

I'm Ukrainian myself and I feel I should point out (merely from my experience of being both born and bred there until around 10) that countries like Ukraine and Russia know no other way than the way they have followed for many centuries. What seems cold, corrupt and medieval in other parts of the world is not at all seen that was in these countries. Everything is run by the church, everyone is religious. If you even bring up the concept of disbelief in a God, you are seen as an outcast - a lost person. Maybe even insane, maybe into witchcraft. Now this is obviously completely ridiculous, but a lot of other things therefore stem from this kind of viewpoint. For example the utter disgust and intolerance for homosexuals found in these places (which I am not in agreement with at all, but I know that if it weren't for me spending most of my teen/adult life in the UK, I would still be programmed to hate them). Or the blind following of Putin, who is heavily involved in pretty much any church ceremony taken place around the country.

I agree with the OP about Crimea though, the fact that Russia took it back was pretty much something Ukraine had coming. I'm not sure that any of the stuff that is happening however is seen correctly. Despite all that is happening, Russia and Ukraine are practically the same nation. They are very, very close. So close in fact that the pro-Russian/pro-Ukrainian nationalists that everyone seems to think roam the cities killing are in fact literally seen as another entity altogether - random pro-EU/American fascists. Obviously it's hard to tell what is actually happening there right now, and since I still reside in the UK I have no way of knowing myself, but singling out Russia for being too nationalistic seems slightly unfair - even if correct. America gives off the same vibe, even if promoting 'freedom'.

@mrfalcon: Thanks for that - I didn't know there were Crimean Tartars. Turns out they have a fairly rich history on that land. I had no idea.

@singingmenstrual: If that's true, then I sincerely apologize. The humor was clearly lost on me.

As a Russian myself I can say that the main concern for me is how the government is cracking down on independent media. In the last month an alarming amount of resources were shut down as well as some prominent people being forced out from their jobs. Tv at became completely unreliable as a news source and proclaims that Ukraine is essentially taken over by nazis (not that directly but that is the main point). Our respect of war heroes is being used to get some really shaky laws and political moves.

I wouldn't say that people are overwhelmingly nationalistic about it. There is a good number of people against the war with Ukraine and the propaganda in our media. There are still a lot of people who have family members and friends in Ukraine so this message of hate seems really confusing.

It's been a really weird time these couple of months here and I just hope it doesn't get much worse.

No kidding. Giantbomb should make an off topic forum where people can discuss... Oh... Wait a minute.

It is "Off Topic". In theory people can talk about Game of Thrones. Does that make Putin a Lannister? :)

Back to the topic, there is something to the idea that "Ukraine and Russia are practically the same" but this is along the lines of "Canada and US are practically the same". There are a lot of strong ties culturally that have existed for centuries, even before both were countries, but I'm not entirely sure it is proper or even tolerable to suggest either country start annexing parts of the other because of internal political problems. I get the feeling most don't want to make "Putin out to be the bad guy" but want to maintain a status quo even if it is a bit rotten for some parts of some country. It isn't about taking sides as just getting the roller coaster to stop.

Stepping back for a moment I do wonder what changed internally in Russia. It feels like something beyond "losing their man" in Ukraine happened.

@dars: Oh yeah, that's pretty common. I feel it's pretty passive though. Even myself I am wearing a cross even though I am more agnostic than anything. It's kind of a family memento or something.