Sam Harris: Faith vs. Reason in the Modern World

@washingmachine said:

@awe_stuck said:

@washingmachine said:

I'm an atheist and find videos like this very inspiring. regardless of their tone, I don't know how anyone can listen to the words of guys like Harris and not understand that they are speaking some very simple and obvious truths. If you're offended by it, I imagine you're religious, and I think to be offended is a great step in making people realise that the concept of faith is incredibly naive and ultimately unneeded. That doesn't mean you shouldn't have the right to believe it...but come on..

Faith is needed for people that care about it. To say you should burn all the books about God. God wouldnt disappear. To remove genes in our brains so we wouldnt believe in God. The idea of God would still be there. The fact is people have the right to believe. The difference is there are people who are spiritual who really believe in God and will kill for that right to believe in their God. Muslims just care about land. But christians care about equality - our faith is just as political as it is spiritual. We want Christian countries and Christian people as much as atheist, we just dont want Muslim countries and Muslims. Just like you wouldnt want to be stoned for sayin you believe in Christ, we too dont want the reverse, but nonetheless we would do the same. Why? Has nothing to do with the bible its what War is essentially- ideology. I am better then you and deserve more. Thats why the US was soo powerful thanks to Obamie and his illegal bills he keeps passing, soon the US will be just a caricture of Europe (though with a much bigger military)

Guns win wars, but unless you win the hearts and minds of the conquerors and thus those they conquer you are but a man holding to something he cannot hold.

No one would doubt that moderate Christians generally do well to others, but as guys like Harris always ask -- why then do you need religion to be moral?

It helps you when you study morals. A lot of laws, and thus practical philosophy come from religion. Would you erase the force that drove humanity for almost 5000 of our most productive years simply because we were wrong. Even though you cant prove it. Sure learning math that is wrong is a waste of time (hello old chemistry and advanced geometry classes that were taught simply to introduce you to real ideas and concepts). I'm just morality can be better defined by understanding religion. It shows history that resulted from the application of those types of specific philosophy. To say all religion is bad mkay because of this and this. Is like saying well all our lands are based on Zionism but none of us are Jews, who cares. Well you should cus your following their code, their bible. The smartest people in the World are religious. So, are the richest people. To say religion isnt important. Well it is. Because to the poorest of people and those who enjoy philosophizing about topics that are much more complex then simply saying theres a God, we have conversations about religion, about politics.

We knew what thunder and lightning was before we could explain them scientifically. Does that mean we were wrong? Believing the universe is a single organism may be simple, but what if its true. And, if its not who cares. We dont need religious extremist terrorists in the World, but terrorism was invented by governments. And, guess what terrorism is the one of the largest primary concerns of the CIA, because they employ spies all over the World who fund, commit, and help educate people on how to commit acts of terrorism to keep the interests of America safe.

Do I care that people dont believe in God? No. Do I care some guy has hours of video telling me rather improperly and incorrectly I'm wrong sure. I mean what if you someone who was illiterate sat there and told you everything he said was true cus he read it in a book he bought that was 50 years old. And, you told him if he bought another book for 50 dollars it would show him everything he said was false, he shot you. Thats Sam Harris explaining why religion is bad. Religion isnt bad because of the bible, its bad because people misinterpret it. Is it bad the bible history where astrocities were commited - no. Why? Because Jesus came and taught us that having a wrathful, vengeful god was wrong. You have righteousness through sacrifice. Not righteousness through murder. He cant distinguish. I'm gonna rag on Harris.

@Anund said:

@Still_I_Cry said:

@Anund: "NOTE: These lists are meant to identify possible problems in the Bible, especially problems which are inherent in a literalist or fundamentalistinterpretation. Some of the selections may be resolvable on certain interpretations--after all, almost any problem can be eliminated with suitable rationalizations--but it is the reader's obligation to test this possibility and to decide whether it really makes appropriate sense to do this. To help readers in this task, these lists are aimed at presenting examples where problems may exist given certain allowable (but not always obligatory) assumptions."

"may exist" "given certain assumptions". These words are not generally used when discussing objective truths.

Also, not all Christians follow the King James model of the Bible.

And I don't feel like going through all those and explaining the historical context and wading through the semantics of the time in order to explain what was actually going on.

If you want to present me with one or two strikingly brutal and merciless examples I'll look into them.

LE 26:29, DT 28:53, JE 19:9, EZ 5:8-10 As a punishment, the Lord will cause people to eat the flesh of their own sons and daughters and fathers and friends.

NU 21:6 Fiery serpents, sent by the Lord, kill many Israelites.

God punishes those who disobey him. If a God told you do this and I will give you this and he gave it to you and you disobeyed him. What would that God do?

No one cares god is wrathful. Just like no one cares about Iraq.

Whatever that link leads to, it remains that a set of morals are the types of behaviours acceptable in that particular society/population and varies from culture to culture. Just because you have a certain moral code, it doesn't mean the rest of the world will have the same one and accept it as fact. 

@awe_stuck said:

@washingmachine said:

@awe_stuck said:

@washingmachine said:

I'm an atheist and find videos like this very inspiring. regardless of their tone, I don't know how anyone can listen to the words of guys like Harris and not understand that they are speaking some very simple and obvious truths. If you're offended by it, I imagine you're religious, and I think to be offended is a great step in making people realise that the concept of faith is incredibly naive and ultimately unneeded. That doesn't mean you shouldn't have the right to believe it...but come on..

Faith is needed for people that care about it. To say you should burn all the books about God. God wouldnt disappear. To remove genes in our brains so we wouldnt believe in God. The idea of God would still be there. The fact is people have the right to believe. The difference is there are people who are spiritual who really believe in God and will kill for that right to believe in their God. Muslims just care about land. But christians care about equality - our faith is just as political as it is spiritual. We want Christian countries and Christian people as much as atheist, we just dont want Muslim countries and Muslims. Just like you wouldnt want to be stoned for sayin you believe in Christ, we too dont want the reverse, but nonetheless we would do the same. Why? Has nothing to do with the bible its what War is essentially- ideology. I am better then you and deserve more. Thats why the US was soo powerful thanks to Obamie and his illegal bills he keeps passing, soon the US will be just a caricture of Europe (though with a much bigger military)

Guns win wars, but unless you win the hearts and minds of the conquerors and thus those they conquer you are but a man holding to something he cannot hold.

No one would doubt that moderate Christians generally do well to others, but as guys like Harris always ask -- why then do you need religion to be moral?

It helps you when you study morals. A lot of laws, and thus practical philosophy come from religion. Would you erase the force that drove humanity for almost 5000 of our most productive years simply because we were wrong. Even though you cant prove it. Sure learning math that is wrong is a waste of time (hello old chemistry and advanced geometry classes that were taught simply to introduce you to real ideas and concepts). I'm just morality can be better defined by understanding religion. It shows history that resulted from the application of those types of specific philosophy. To say all religion is bad mkay because of this and this. Is like saying well all our lands are based on Zionism but none of us are Jews, who cares. Well you should cus your following their code, their bible. The smartest people in the World are religious. So, are the richest people. To say religion isnt important. Well it is. Because to the poorest of people and those who enjoy philosophizing about topics that are much more complex then simply saying theres a God, we have conversations about religion, about politics.

We knew what thunder and lightning was before we could explain them scientifically. Does that mean we were wrong? Believing the universe is a single organism may be simple, but what if its true. And, if its not who cares. We dont need religious extremist terrorists in the World, but terrorism was invented by governments. And, guess what terrorism is the one of the largest primary concerns of the CIA, because they employ spies all over the World who fund, commit, and help educate people on how to commit acts of terrorism to keep the interests of America safe.

Do I care that people dont believe in God? No. Do I care some guy has hours of video telling me rather improperly and incorrectly I'm wrong sure. I mean what if you someone who was illiterate sat there and told you everything he said was true cus he read it in a book he bought that was 50 years old. And, you told him if he bought another book for 50 dollars it would show him everything he said was false, he shot you. Thats Sam Harris explaining why religion is bad. Religion isnt bad because of the bible, its bad because people misinterpret it. Is it bad the bible history where astrocities were commited - no. Why? Because Jesus came and taught us that having a wrathful, vengeful god was wrong. You have righteousness through sacrifice. Not righteousness through murder. He cant distinguish. I'm gonna rag on Harris.

You say morality can be better defined by understanding religion, but I think it's really the other way round. If I want to know why a mammal mothers for her child by way of natural instinct, or that a lion feels no remorse in killing a zebra in aid of pure survival, I don't want to look at some ancient scriptures that were written when, quite simply, people didn't know any better. The same is true for humans and not just other animals: there is strong evidence for a moral fibre in all the evolutionary family tree, and that's something you can properly analyse in a way that is tangible and real--no matter what you think, the same CANNOT be said for religion. To me, this is not only more important, but it's also far more elegant than anything in any holy book. I won't argue that understanding religion through history is incredibly important--you wouldn't be able to understand the vast majority of wars and conflicts without knowing about it.

I find the first few seconds of the second paragraph very scary. How can you NOT care about the space in which our world floats around in? It's a basic contention, but if I concocted my own theory of how the universe came to be, people would think I was crazy. Just because so many people believe in one thing, it doesn't make it true. Far from it. The truth itself is far more complex and therefore far more brilliant--more brilliant than anything in the Bible. I'm pretty sure you believe that gravity exists, otherwise you wouldn't jump off a roof. If someone told you otherwise and you jumped off, I think you'd care then. It's a crude thing to say, I admit, but it's the same ideal. Science makes an effort to explain why things are the way they are, and the religious are fine with this until the opposition questions the facile constructs of their faith. It is being wilfully ignorant, and that attitude is dangerous regardless of extremism.

And it's easy to say that people "don't get it" or whatever -- but maybe they do get it and you just don't like the reality of what your beloved book tells you? If you've some revelation to share with the world then please get on with it. Until then, guys like Harris will continue to deny the existence of a preternatural deity as long as the only available evidence entails a big compilation of fairy-tales comprised by ignorant scribes from thousands of years ago.

@Anund said:

@Still_I_Cry said:

@Anund: "NOTE: These lists are meant to identify possible problems in the Bible, especially problems which are inherent in a literalist or fundamentalistinterpretation. Some of the selections may be resolvable on certain interpretations--after all, almost any problem can be eliminated with suitable rationalizations--but it is the reader's obligation to test this possibility and to decide whether it really makes appropriate sense to do this. To help readers in this task, these lists are aimed at presenting examples where problems may exist given certain allowable (but not always obligatory) assumptions."

"may exist" "given certain assumptions". These words are not generally used when discussing objective truths.

Also, not all Christians follow the King James model of the Bible.

And I don't feel like going through all those and explaining the historical context and wading through the semantics of the time in order to explain what was actually going on.

If you want to present me with one or two strikingly brutal and merciless examples I'll look into them.

LE 26:29, DT 28:53, JE 19:9, EZ 5:8-10 As a punishment, the Lord will cause people to eat the flesh of their own sons and daughters and fathers and friends.

NU 21:6 Fiery serpents, sent by the Lord, kill many Israelites.

Ah, the good old tactic of taking excerpts without reading what came before them. He is stating this in regard to obeying his ten commandments. In addition consider this:

"14 But if you will not hear me, nor do all my commandments,

If you despise my laws, and contemn my judgments so as not to do those things which are appointed by me, and to make void my covenant"

The precursor to the excerpt you posted. Essentially it states that if you actively persecute and condemn God's laws these things will happen. I also feel it is necessary to clarify that He is NOT condemning Gentiles non-christians. Only those who believed and turned away, then blasphemed and so attempted to spread their distaste of his laws to others in an attempt to nullify his Commandments.

If you condemn this teaching, which is essentially stating that if you do not obey the law you will be punished or if you attempt to undermine and negate the law you will be punished, then how would you suggest one uphold peace and uniformity amongst a civilization or group of peoples?

In your next excerpt it is again it is an issue of context:

"5 And speaking against God and Moses, they said: Why didst thou bring us out of Egypt, to die in the wilderness? There is no bread, nor have we any waters: our soul now loatheth this very light food.

Upon which they came to Moses, and said: We have sinned, because we have spoken against the Lord and thee: pray that he may take away these serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.

And the Lord said to him: Make brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: whosoever being struck shall look on it, shall live."

So he's actually forgiving the people for blaspheming because they repented. I would call that merciful.

@H2Oyea: Oh boy..I confused the definition of a word with the definition of another word and that doesn't happen at all to anyone else in existence I'm sure..my point still stands.

Yes, I should have looked it up. My bad on the confusion.

I have an idea

How about we just agree that the things we can prove exist exist

and we'll leave the debate about whether the things we can't prove exist don't exist

for after we're all totally dead

I've never found Sam Harris very compelling. He's popular, but I think much of the popularity stems from his arguments being rather simple (so he can appeal to the masses, I assume). Granted, I'm a pretty religious man, but I've heard far better (and far more philosophical) arguments against faith than those I've heard from Harris. That said, I didn't watch this particular video and don't currently have the time. Maybe I'll come back and give you my thoughts at a later date.

@Still_I_Cry: I thought you were quoting the plagues of egypt. But you also say 5. I'm confused. Either way god did punish people. So, ya. Sorry, I misintrepreted the quote. In Jewish times god would actually talk to them. So, its kinda hard to say theres no god when a giant cloud says do this do that blahblah blah

Religion is the philosophical equivalent of 'I know you are but what am I' because it defies all logic that any normal person lives their life by but can't really be critiqued because they believe/have faith and so will never look at any kind of rational thought through a rational lens.

@HandsomeDead said:

Religion is the philosophical equivalent of 'I know you are but what am I' because it defies all logic that any normal person lives their life by but can't really be critiqued because they believe/have faith and so will never look at any kind of rational thought through a rational lens.

Umm. Not really true. I guess Einstein and like almost every significant scientist was irrational. Intelligence and mental disorders are not related to if you believe in God.

God is an idea. You either believe in it or you dont. Who cares. I really dont. I'm just saying thinking about it can constructively help you, obviously hurting people. And, taking god literally is negative. But so is also criticizing people who are dead and cant defend themselves by trying to embarass them in front of people who believe what they have said.

The Iron Age was about nature and taking what was yours. You wanna talk about real medieval mythology lets face this if you have a rich country and no soldiers people normal or crazy will kill you for your wealth. Iron Age was a historical period that was ruled by the Vikings. Guess what defeated the Vikings? Christianity. You think religion is insignificant. Tell that to the people in South Sudan, or the Israelis, or the muslim in Iraq. Christianity is a philosophy that changes how you think, how you act, who you are its just not an irrational religion. Its much more then that. To say its insignificant is humourous. When you imagine the fact Socialism is based on Christianity. Churches, monks, and pretty much every war since the Romans has been due to religion. Religion will never go away. Its important.

Regardless of religion, it is still important. Having morality and values is more important then religion itself, its just an easy way to teach yourself and other people about them. Its been around for thousands of years. Watching someone kill for another reason and blaming god is sick. Nonetheless murder and god dont exist. God killed those people. If people killed someone and said it was for God and it was wasnt, they sinned, and didnt go to heaven. You dont have to believe, to learn something from it. Its fine to talk about God. Its when you criticisize people and call them dumb, and show examples why their retarded - Sam Harris you the man brother. Telling religious people they are retarded. At least Dawkins does this constructively. He uses the high minded method of calling you dumb.

Ex. Those are nice socks. *smile (The socks are ugly) I like them cus red goes with brown pants (it really doesnt, example is why they are ugly).