No Optical out on the Slim, no 4k blu-ray player and no 4K upscaler... it makes the console worse than the Xbox One s. But that aside I expected them to nail it with the Pro, it doesn't matter if it's only 4tflops vs the 6 of the Xbox Scorpio next year as Sony are out a year earlier.

However...

The Pro has no 4K Blu-ray player....... it essentially makes the console from a must buy to a "I'll wait to see what the Scorpio is". Like having that ability alone makes buying the Xbox One s worth it as 4k blu-ray players are expensive. I expected the Pro to be a no brainer with that feature, but now I'm just saying to myself "I'm not going to buy one". It's also seriously just made me think, I'll skip PSVR as well as now I'm thinking about moving over to the Xbox next year, especially since you only have to buy a Microsoft game once to play on Xbox One and PC.

For me Sony have just killed the Playstation, I was so let down, I was expecting to buy a Pro and PSVR this year...

Optical out does not annoy me as modern amplifiers use HDMI for audio and video, I can see it being annoying if you have a low end or old audio system where optical out is the go to.

I don't use my PS4 or Xbox One a lot so I might sell both, the announcement of the Pro did not strike a chord. I think the 4k marketing claims could get Sony in trouble if they are not careful. Their marketing spin on it being a 4k machine is very disingenuous.

Tempted to upgrade my GTX 780 to a GTX 1080...

The first time this generation that I've been looking at Microsoft and the Xbone and thinking 'oh they're probably the smart option now' but then again you cant underestimate the power of an installed userbase.

Apparently, the Scorpio is going to be 30% more powerful than the PS4 Pro if we're talking pure teraflops. I just dont understand how the basic Xbox model has a 4k Blu Ray and the PS4 Pro doesn't, I think Sony are squandering a lot of the good will they've built up. With the Slim and Pro both looking a bit lacklustre and rushed (WAS THERE SERIOUSLY A NEED FOR A SLIM? IT LOOKS LIKE GARBAGE AS WELL?!?!?!?!) I think my first "4k consoles" is going to be a scorpio despite having a PS4 library and a PC (that'll play the xbox exclusives) purely because I have more confidence in Microsoft than Sony right now.

People still think the Xbox One requires a constant internet connection. There have been far worse blunders that apply to more people.

They hyped it up too much. When the Pro first leaked they went to their go to PR strategy of shoving their heads in the sand and pretending like nothing happened. Then instead of just taking 15-20 minutes at E3 announce it they put on their own big show two months before it launches and did a terrible job presenting it.

I remember people heavily criticizing MS for announcing two consoles at E3 but it seems like their strategy is paying off more than Sony's

Whatever they did would be terrible. You can present the unseeable. And you can't really comment on Microsoft's strategy until the Scorpio hits the road. If anything, the potential for a gulf between the Scorpio and base Xbox Ones is larger due to the extra year they're taking on it.

What we've got this generation are platform holders wanting to present affordable consoles with familiar architecture that developers can work with. Developers have gotten to grips with it real quick and are now demanding more under the hood.

I don't buy physical movies or tv shows anymore, so a lack of 4k blue-ray is not a big deal to me, but is still a baffling omission. Honestly the only way I can see myself buying this is if PSVR is amazing and this makes it run a lot better. I probably won't upgrade my tv for a while as my parents got me a new tv last Christmas, and shit looks just fine on it. If giant single player games (ala The Witcher 3) see frame rate improvement over the base PS4 maybe. But I would need $400 burning a hole in my pocket if that's the only noticeable improvement considering my situation.

@kingbonesaw: Your internet can't be that bad if you'd like disc drives gone completely. Either your internet is pretty good or you don't buy many games/stream a lot of video.

Biggest blunder?

499 USD PS3

Cell processor

No rumble

Special Sony 3D TVs.

And that's just one gen back. Tech is full of weird attempts like these. Some stick some don't. No big company writes itself into a corner these days. See also Xbox DRM reversal. My feeling is that this new ps4 is more for new customers than old ones. And nobody would have bothered anyway if chip manufacturers weren't gearing up for the production of smaller chips.

This years kerfuffle is about one thing: can they get you two upgrade every one or two years?

@jasoncooke: It annoys me because I play Rocksmith and HDMI has more latency than Optical and makes it unplayable.

@alistercat: most games these days require a constant internet connection, so in a way they're not wrong.

@an_ancient: Pretty sure the PS3 was 599, not 499. And that was probably one of the better deals. It was $1000 Australian dollars, which worked out to about $800USD at the time. A THOUSAND DOLLARS.

And yeah, I almost feel like the specifics of the Pro don't really matter that much, it's more about getting people used to the idea of incremental hardware revisions more in line with what happens with phones etc.

How that pans out remains to be seen, although I don't really have a dog in that (non-master) race.

I can see why Sony left out a 4K blu Ray player, as most people nowadays either stream or download movies, tv shows etc. I know I do, so the drive is only used for the games in a lot of cases. Strange side note, I don't buy physical media anymore except games, and I don't know why games are the exception...

Honestly I don't even see why consoles are racing towards 4K so fast, when the extra power from these incremental console releases would be better spent getting a solid 1080x60fps. 4K should have been left to the next generation of consoles. I dont even own a 4K tv, and I doubt I'll get one anytime soon.

No, I see a smaller, slightly cheaper version of their existing successful console and a larger, more powerful version of their existing successful console.

I think the lack of optical out and the lack of a 4K Blu-Ray player are being fairly overstated. I'm sure most people would rather have the unit be a bit cheaper than pay for a 4K Blu Ray player that they might never use, especially on the Slim which isn't being touted as a 4K console anyway.

If the only problem Sony have coming out of this is that their newer console doesn't play a physical media format that is still years away from being commonplace then I feel like they're doing pretty well.

@yesiamaduck: Only 20% consumers use their consoles to play movies and most of them don't care about watching films in 4K. Sony needs the Pro competitively priced for a worldwide market in which tech is often far more expensive compared to the US the Xbox is only really in two countries US/UK.

PS4 40m - 16m US

XB1 20m - 14m US

The Pro £349 is the same launch price as the original PS4.

Apple raises UK prices on iPhone 7

HTC Vive price hike for UK

Blunder:

-launching the PS3 at a high price point with a processor architecture that is difficult to work with

-launching the 3DS at a high price point with no good launch games

-calling a console the Wii U, long after the Wii had lost any brand power and just causing confusion/apathy from consumers

-announcing the Xbox One with a bizarre focus on TV bullshit and Kinect, and an implication that buying physical used games wasn't going to work anymore

Not a blunder:

-having 2 PS4 SKUs, one for 4K TVs and one for normal TVs. The specifics of what the PS4 Pro is lacking are really not going to matter to the average consumer

No optical out? Sony just does weird dumb shit , i guess to save money? But it's not worse than not having dlna streaming on the ps4 or bluray movie playback(i guess they patched these in later?). I wouldn't say scorpio will be 30% better cause it has more teraflops, we should wait and see how those teraflops actually affect performance. And honestly if ps4 is upscaling and scorpio goes true 4k, chances are ps4 will perform better with less resolution. Anyway, yeah sony has a history of leaving basic features out this generation, 4k bluray should be a must have in a 4k console as well.

I'm assuming we're talking about the video game division only and not the living shitshow that is Sony Pictures Entertainment.

The PS3 was literally 1000 kangaroo dollars on release. The PS3's launch was so far their biggest blunder (okay maybe handhelds as well, but the PSP actually had a good library), and their image turnaround during that gen is kind of crazy. What Sony is doing now is the experimentation that can be expected of a company that is winning. Whether that's good or bad experimentation is debatable, especially when the end-consumer gets treated like a sucker. Sony is also poised to win the VR market, so I imagine that they feel that they make mistakes. They already have 2 things going for them that neither Vive or Oculus have; they have the accessibility (only $400), and they have the audience (literally anyone that owns a PS4, which if I recall correctly is a number past 40 million now). If RE7 (or similar PSVR game) ends up being a quality title, they will also have the killer app. The average consumer just does not care about the minutiae of different specs between the different VR devices, and the only way I can see the PSVR failing is if the device itself is actually garbage, or if maybe we just aren't there yet with VR overall. I think it's really easy to forget in these hobbyist forums that the average consumer does not care for about 90% of the things we talk about when they make a choice as to what console or game to get.

House keeps on saying how the PC is the biggest competitor for them right now, but I don't see how the PS4 Pro is an answer to that. I like playing on PC for the 60fps more than I do for the fancy graphics or crazy resolutions, though that may just be me. Everything about the marketing for the Pro so far has been hammering this 4k and graphical eye candy point home, which is honestly not really what I am into all that much. The fact that Sony also shot down modding as an option for Bethesda games is also confusing, if Sony really does want to take on the PC crowd.

I think the lack of a drive is clearly a mistake and would not have increased cost much. Beyond that, the more info that gets out there, the more it seems a lot of games won't even be improving much with the Pro. And it's not even 4K even though they are trying their best to say 4K and mislead on that. Meanwhile HDR is coming to the XB1 S and other regular PS4's and seems like a better addition.

The whole thing seems like a mess to me. If you are going to upgrade your console, actually upgrade it like Microsoft is doing. Even that isn't great to me but at least it isn't this weak half step. Being out there saying "hey this is for your 4K TVs guys!" and it's not even putting out a 4K image is pretty much a joke.

This should push more people to PC. These consoles are weak and they are trying to bullshit you way too much. People can do whatever they want, but I hope that happens more because I just think it's a way better gaming experience and I would love PC gaming to continue to thrive. If you actually care about performance and having a 4K imagine that is where you want to go.

EDIT: As far as streaming, people going on about how no one uses physical are just speaking to their own experience and also I'm not sure they understand what 4K streaming actually entails. Not that it's impossible for everyone but it's not a simple thing.

I think the leaked specs are very legit and it's actually 70% more powerful. These things have to go into production way in advance. All the leaked stuff about PS4 ended up being right and the Scorpio stuff will too.

As far as the drive cost, that seems to be about $15 or so plus costs associated with using the tech. It seems like a really stupid move not to have it.

No, I think they did they right thing. They improved things without going above $399. That was the one and only key to selling this thing - price it right.

I honestly don't really get this 4K Blu Ray thing? Was anyone asking for that? Yes, it would be an upgrade, but there are very few people who are going to start buying 4K Blu ray when they were not even buying old Blu Ray at all. Heck, I'm thinking there are folks at Sony's movie division that are PISSED. But, updating the player and paying the licensing fees, would have added to the expense (Yeah, even Sony has to pay for that licensing fee). The system needed to be $399 (or less) and it is.

Only time will tell of course, but I think Sony putting this out a year ahead of Scorpio is a HUGE finger in Microsoft's eye. And I'm guess that Nintendo isn't happy either, they like Microsoft likely expected Neo(Pro) to appear NEXT YEAR. Sony putting this out now is not fantastic news for Microsoft or Nintendo. Are they shaking in their boots? No, but it is yet another move Sony made that wasn't in anyone else's playbook.

@artisanbreads: I think you misunderstand for most people 1080p is good enough for movies and don't care about both 4K physical/streaming, its why Sony are using games to sell 4K. Pro does support native 4K not that many games will use it but how many people will be able to tell the difference between Pro 4k upscaled from 1440p and native 4K on Scorpio? how many developers will run games natvie 4K on Scorpio?

The Last of Us Remastered Will Run Native 4K on PS4 Pro

Elder Scrolls Online on PS4 Pro will have "native 4K" from day one

@monkeyking1969: The 4K Blu-ray drive only costs Microsoft $15 extra....

I think it's crazy to just say "hey most people say it's good enough". It's the same as others saying "no one wants physical media" and thinking they speak for everyone.

Of course, I will not know either until down the road when conclusions can be drawn. But I am taking that stance with my posts on these topics.

But the one thing we can say for sure is Sony is misleading on the 4K point and if other people think that's cool... go for it. I think it's bullshit. Yes there's Last of Us sure but that game is a PS3 game. In the PC space there is way more powerful hardware that is just starting to be capable of actual 4K with new games.

Beyond that, I think HDR is a more substantial add for people. It's very noticeable and it'll be coming to the less powerful versions of both consoles.

As far as Scorpio, it is substantially more powerful which makes it hands down better IMO because it can actually get at the things the Pro tries to claim it does. However, that could just as easily be a dumb product depending on how games come out for it and utilize it. I think all of this is bad for consumers.

The biggest blunder was probably Napoleon's invasion of Russia.

I don't really care about 4k or even HDR that much. HDR is a great plus but what I really care about is performance. If every PS4 game now runs at 4k30 (or worse) I don't see a point in buying one. If single-player games can now run at 1080p60 instead of 1080p30, I think it would be a great reason to upgrade.

The launch of the PS3 was probably their biggest blunder.

The PS1 and PS2 remain the two best selling consoles to this day, yet the PS3 was 3rd behind the Wii and 360 for most of the last generation, only catching up on the 360 near the end. They threw away an absolutely massive market lead with their arrogance.

Of course, Microsoft did the same thing this gen with their always-online connectivity blunder, giving Sony any easy lead this gen. The fact that both companies did this is ample proof that competition is necessaey to keep them honest. Anyway, digression.

I don't think these new console versions even make the top 3 blunders of the Sony game division, and wouldn't even come close to the top 10 of Sony as a whole.

I'm not saying it the market has BluRay is much better quality compared to streaming but digital is expanding faster than any previous format including 4K.

Sony's in a 'bag of hurt' because of Blu-ray 2014

Blu-ray was officially introduced in 2006, backed by Sony and other manufacturers, and briefly battled against competing "next-generation" format HD-DVD. Buoyed by widespread adoption thanks to integration with the PlayStation 3, the popularity of Sony's format of choice saw HD-DVDs die without trace.

Winning this battle required heavy investment from Sony, an investment that it expected to recoup with years of strong sales. Instead of the market moving from DVD to Blu-ray, consumers began to embrace downloads from Apple's iTunes service and streaming from sites like Netflix and Hulu.

From a personal point of view, my thoughts on the PS4 Pro are somewhat mixed. I maybe old fashioned here but I preferred it when buying a games console was a long term investment, by which I mean you were confident that the company would continue to support it for a least a good few years. I'm sure both Sony and Microsoft are keen to reassure people that the older systems would still be supported despite working on upgraded units but personally I don't really buy it. On the other hand I do like my games to look as best as they can (as long as it doesn't affect the gameplay experience (looking at you framerates)) and the PS4 Pro looks to be a sorta significant step forward but only if you have a 4K TV which I currently don't.

The whole 4K Blu Ray thing really isn't a major issue for me at the moment due to not owning a 4K television but it is a little strange that it can handle 4K gaming but not 4K Blu Ray movies but I'm not really technically minded and I'm unclear as to whether Sony could fix the issue through firmware.

To me both Sony and Microsoft are making blunders in making these 0.5 upgrades. The concept just seems like a clever way of making you buy the same thing twice only it's slightly enhanced, a business model that they wholeheartedly adopted from Nintendo and it's many handheld iterations. Part of me doesn't want to be left behind with the old model but the rest of me feels it's too big of a personal investment to justify playing games that look slightly prettier.

@thepanzini: I certainly agree streaming has grown a lot. I don't mean to call bullshit on you with that point. No question that is the case. It has been the case for myself.

However, when moving into 4K it becomes a big leap in bandwidth. A lot of 4K streaming sucks in quality from what I hear. So I think it is complicated beyond that basic trend. And even still, some stick to their physical media. If this is really aimed at people that want their picture quality, not giving them the best method to reach that quality right now seems to be a clear mistake. Especially because the cost is not high to do so.

Once streaming services include director's commentaries and making-of docs in their output, I'll begin to consider not buying discs for movies I like.

Can't see this happening any time soon - Apparently Netflix tried a commentary track for the first House Of Cards season (a show I was super into but never knew such a thing existed, and the amount of devices in my house with a Netflix app are probably in the double figures) and nothing else since.

When I eventually move to 4k I'll want a physical media player because of the combination of the above and my rural fibre being right on the bubble of what Netflix recommends for streaming speeds.

The PS3 was my BD player since 07 (I bought the media remote before I even bought a game for it) and I've only recently reluctantly replaced it with a PS4.

Tbh the very notion of higher end versions of each console just makes me wish I built a gaming PC so I wasn't beholden to these companies anymore. That said, hearing that the PS4 pro has more to do with 4k than processing power has made assuredly less interested in EVER buying one. The Scorpio definitely sounds more interesting, but all of this has confirmed what the GB crew has repeatedly said about consoles. They're really struggling to stay relevant.

People are torqued up about that lack of UHD support, but I haven't purchased a physical movie disc in 4 years. I just purchase digital or stream everything. I don't cherish physical media anymore.

@claybrez: I dunno. I like the convenience and form of a console and, to be honest, would your budget really change for the better if you commit to upgrading a PC?

@damodar: i think you meant a thousand dollary-doos.

I still don't get the point of targeting the Pro for 4K TV's if it can't do 4K blurays, since that's the only native 4K stuff it could feasibly do. We'll sure as hell not get any games that render in that resolution on this generation's consoles.

@fisk0: True, but I guess I mean that the Pro will be there for people who recently splurged on a newer TV that does HDR and whatever, while literally anyone else can just stick with their current PS4 or get a PS4 Slim.

Like, it's a pity that it's not the Second Coming of Christ, but in an effort to not split the user base too much or charge exorbitant prices, I never really expected anything other than a DSi/New 3DS sort of half-step.

@fisk0: Its HD Ready / 1080pr all over again the vast majority of people use their consoles to play games and true of not PS4 Pro with 4k on the box will be enough for most, its gonna be very hard for MS to educate and sell native 4k over Pro 1440p upscaled 4k with it being so hard to spot the difference.

I don't think physical media like blu-rays are anywhere near popular anymore. I used to buy movies all the time, and when I didn't buy them I would use Redbox. I haven't used a Redbox is the last 2 years, and I buy maybe 2 Blurays a year now. I can't think of a single person I know who still invests in physical movies much at all anymore. Of course this is anecdotal, but I don't think many people would disagree with me. When every video game console can stream movies, and in a world where you can get a Chromecast or FireTV for under 50 bucks, it seems insane to buy movies.

With that said, I think it's way too early for video game consoles to target 4k. PC's with a single 1080 can't even hit 4k at full settings/60FPS.

The lack of the 4k blu-ray drive will only be a considerable talking point if sales of those discs take off, which I really doubt. Yes, it is an easy marketing layup for Microsoft to point to that feature as something they have, and Sony does not, but it is something that the casual shopper will give a damn about. It is not a blunder, it is a fart in the wind.

The hard sell is trying to convince the mass market that the uptick in visuals is substantial enough for an upgrade. They are not going after a new market with this system, as seen with their slim update, but think there is some value at taking a shot at group of people that value graphics above all else.

The thing that gnaws at me is the timing of release. Sony has practically nothing this holiday season outside of the PSVR. They are entering yet another holiday season with a slim first party selection, and is banking on their third party partnerships to carry the game catalog during the busiest time of the year. Depending on on the graphical fidelity of third party titles to sell a new powerhouse system is pretty risky.

It is amazing to see people surprised or complaining that a console isn't doing "real" 4K and says company is lying to the public.

$2000 PC rigs can barely do 4K. And it's up to the consumer to educate themselves prior to a purchase.

Sounds like a lot of people are frustrated they don't have one of these newer TVs.

So, when Persona 4 and FFXV I will have the best possible performance with them on the Playstaion Pro. Mass Effect: Andromeda will come out on PC, but for the majority of purchasers who buy on console it will perform better on the Pro.

Anything I'm even remotely excited about on the Xbox side will be coming out on Windows as well. That was Microsoft's real blunder. I'm having a hard time even craigslisting my Xbox One (which has dropped CONSIDERABLY in grey market value (145 on craigslist and 100 at Gamestop) compared to the PS4 (210 on craigslist and 145 at Gamestop).

If I invest in a 4K TV with HDR, I'm going to need a UHD player. Streaming quality still doesn't match UHD, and UHD generally includes a digital copy. The Xbox Slim is the cheapest player, so I'll get one of those before upgrading to a PS4 Pro.

4k bluray player doesn't matter. I work in tv in New York and NO ONE I know in the business gives a shit about bluray, it's only streaming. I love physical games, but physical copies of movies and shows are more niche than ever before and it'll only get worse. The slim is standard, and again how many people plug optical directly into the box? I bet 90% of ps4 users use the tvs built in speakers through hdmi. The pro so far just seems unappealing which is never a good move, the news coming out about paying for patches sounds bad, but it is no where near the actively antagonistic and aggrogant campaign microsoft was on before xbone or sony before ps3.

Personally, I think that Sony made a mistake not including a UHD Blu-Ray player; not because I feel like there's going to be this big rush to the format or anything, but because it gives Microsoft a marketing bulletpoint to hold over Sony's head.

You need to look at the average consumer, the one who doesn't go to Giant Bomb or NeoGAF or even IGN or Gamespot, the one who doesn't really get the difference between 4k and 1080p and HDR and all that shit. They'll understand that 4K looks better, but may have no clue about frame rates or checkerboard rendering or which console can really do what beyond what the commercials tell them. If you are uninformed, both consoles can do "that 4k thing" and it really comes down to price.

I predict it's going to look like the same shit that Sega pulled back in the day; the SNES was technically superior in almost every way over the Genesis (as a console released later should be), but the Genesis had a processor with a faster clock speed, and that became "Blast Processing" which is all you heard about. I mean, they still lost, but that's an example of great marketing. They'll pound people with this capability stuff, even if 99% of the specs go against them.

Plus, it's hard to show off how much better the Pro can look. We ran into this issue at the reveal, where Alex and Vinny said how great it looked, and Jeff shrugged his shoulders from home. 4k? Most people don't have it. HDR? Most people don't have it. Unless you come up with some good side by side shots in a 30 second TV ad package, you may find people confused as to the actual benefits of a system like the Pro.

I honestly don't care about the resolution of the movies I watch. I mean, I don't watch them for technical achievement. Is Citizen Kane more Citizen Kane at 4K? I watched my dad watch Ghostbusters at 60Hz the other day and it just looked like Bill Murray was in a rush to get everywhere.

@mirado: I mostly agree but the term 'Blast Processing' was only a thing in the US even then the SNES was comfortably the best selling console, advertising was very different in the UK & Europe the Mega Drive (Genesis) was the better selling console without 'Blast Processing'.

@thepanzini: Oh sure, I agree that marketing didn't help Sega out in the US much. I will say that, as a Nintendo fan back in the day, it was all I heard about for months and months. Those commercials were fantastic.