Yasha

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@therealturk: modern star trek doesn't look that great either tbh.

God, star wars is just the most toxic subculture in EVERY WAY now. The fans are awful. The owners are awful. The products are always these big sweaty productions dripping with fat instead of allowing smaller games like dumb pod racing affairs.

To me, this was inevitable because the Souls games speak for themselves so well as a marketable property. The games have a phenomenal art style and direction, and look great in motion, while also looking very different from everything else out there. Ever since they switched engines (I think around Bloodborne) the fluidity of movement in their games has become pretty striking. Elden Ring blew up because it wasn't a sequel (DS3), it wasn't a console exclusive (Bloodborne) and its open world combined with different class options made it way more accessible than prior entries.

What puts Elden Ring above contemporaries like Nioh or other open world games is that AAA gaming is in a rut at the moment where enough games all function similarly that you need someone to explain to you why THIS open world is interesting, or why THAT combat system is cool. You see 5 seconds of ER and there's just a bunch of buck-wild shit everywhere that immediately makes you curious. There's no baggage of the game being a sequel so there isn't a feeling of past games acting as a barrier between you and this enticing world.

The gameplay also doesn't look that complicated in what you need to consider moment-to-moment - the UI is pretty minimal and you can intuit how it might control based on over big games.

It just shows REALLY REALLY well.

@theonewhoplays:I don't actually mind the epilogue too much, but it comes at the end of such a fucking long game. The first game was already far too long for what you could do with its gameplay, and the second is twice as long. I love the combat in TLOU2 but they just stretched that shit out sooo much.

IMO most big budget single-player games have horrible pacing and completely tank my enjoyment of them by always running far longer than they need to. It's always been a problem in games but it's really reared its head in the last few years.

Naughty Dog's last 2 games committed the cardinal sin of having an entire other 50% of a game at the point where they likely should've wrapped up. While TLOU2's gameplay carried it a bit further, I came out the end of both games really frustrated with how self-indulgently long both games were.

God of War 2019's main campaign could've been half the length it was and it would've been a much MUCH tighter experience and we wouldn't have lost anything.

Dying Light 1 holds off showing you a second map where the gameplay really shines 80% into the game and it's mind-boggling, because the map is great! But it's so far into an already bloated game that by the time you get there, you're so fucking done with the game and just want it to end.

Heck, Elden Ring is a big proponent of this issue for me right now - by the time you've decided you'd like to finish the game, you're staring at up to 40 hours of game to finish. I went from adoring this game to finding it seriously flawed because the critical path is so drawn out.

I know these complaints all seem unrelated to the question but I just can't get over how many games I've played which start off as great experiences but go on waaay too long to no real benefit.

@thatpinguino: I'm glad we're on the same page. Part of the difficulty of discussing these games' shortcomings is that sometimes those same flaws can contribute to providing an experience a lot of people miss, albeit often unintentionally. The blatant unfairness and complete jank of some Souls games does often contribute to this feeling of absolute dread and danger, especially in Demon's Souls. The game will make you walk entire levels to reach a boss on a retry and it's absolutely nightmarish in some cases, especially with Maneater. You'll need to play the game for up to 40 minutes just to retry the dude before getting blasted and I remember being overwhelmed with this stomach-churning anxiety at the thought of needing to make that entire journey again. I think I legitimately became depressed from not being able to beat the Maneater level. It was fucking awful, but also kinda exhilarating. I'm so fucking glad that I never have to do it again, but I absolutely screamed when I beat it. I would NEVER wish that experience on anyone else, but at the same time, I love that the rest of the games still give you micro-sampled versions of it.

But it's hard for me to advocate for that kind of thing because the experience requires you to fight bad design and waste a lot of time in order to chase this endorphin rush. Requiring players to waste so much time doing repetitive activities like grinding or repeating sections is just bad. You should never REALLY be forced to grind in any game and whenever I do it, it's because I can't think of any other option. If you're pushed into doing that I'd agree the design has failed somewhat. Elden Ring seems to get away from this problem moreso than any other FromSoft game just by letting you go somewhere else if you get stuck, which is a WORLD of difference.

Buuuuut, having the occasional bullshit enemy, or badly designed encounter does make the challenge a bit more exciting to me on some sick twisted level. Real life isn't a sloped difficulty curve and I love that these games occasionally evoke that reality, but in a safe contained experience. I loved when I first entered Caelid and everything there was just way overpowered and awful. That area was fucking terrifying because I was suddenly so comically dis-empowered. I could still do all these rad attacks and ninja shit but those awful, awful dog-things would still roll me. It felt so real, in a funny emotional way. Suddenly I was in Bloodborne again, I loved it.

But it's so difficult to design this kind of feeling - this borderline neglectful attitude of having the game feel like it's not at all designed and instead this world you just get plonked into. The occasional unfun bossfight or just completely FUCKED encounter is in no way defensible, but its kept me on my toes in a way few other games have. I know it's a completely insane defense and I might just be broken, but I'm hoping that future games can harness whatever Neglectful Kindergarten Teacher energy these games evoke and dole it out in more reasonable doses because there's something there that gets weirdo Souls fans like me really excited about future installments.

Also @ll_exile_ll I'm having the EXACT SAME issue with quests right now and if I was less broken as an abused souls fan I'd find the issue infuriating instead of hilarious. There's just something so funny and real about an NPC giving you these opaque directions to some place past some windmills you've never seen and the game remaining completely impassive about you gaining that knowledge. It's still shit though!

Edit: I really liked how Pathologic 2 did it's difficulty modes where you could take "the deal" and you'd get a worse ending, but the game would be easier. It felt like a much more organic way to let people experience some of the game without being constantly dogged by survival meters, and also have it feel like you're not being pandered to because you've made a huge sacrifice in the process. I fucking haaaaaate True Endings in games, but I'll settle for it in that game because you're meant to feel like shit by the end even when you get better endings. The developers actually went a step further and added in difficulty sliders but that felt like a reaction to some reviewers taking aforementioned deal and then forgetting about it and being upset that they didn't get the ending they wanted. YOU WEREN'T SUPPOSED TO TAKE THE DEAL, BRENDEN.

@thatpinguino: Ok no you misunderstood, sorry if I came across as an asshole - I'm not saying any criticisms are invalid, just that the nature of criticisms that gaming journalists have for souls games are often about things which would completely go against the vibe of these games. Things like better UI, better camera controls, better controls in general, and some kind of vague Soulsy quest log would all improve the game without fundamentally changing the experience. I honestly had to pause on the Quest Log part because I bet there's a way Fromsoft could include one without it feeling like a list of chores - you could do something like the Outer Wilds and have a mind map of gathered info in the hub area.

These games have always felt like B-games punching WAY above their weight because other games of similar scale and popularity figured this shit out years ago; meanwhile in the opening 10 hours of Elden Ring I constantly had to look up basic shit like how to set the "Quick Item" menu, how to dismount faster, and where all the tutorial hints are hidden. That stuff is bad, has always been bad, and could always be improved. It gets in between you and the experience and while I enjoyed the chaotic nature of Demon's Souls not giving you any fucking info, it's something that's only fun if you have the time/patience for it.

The problem I'm trying to address with the discourse surrounding every Souls game is that people are complaining about things that these games (mostly) already give you the tools for overcoming. The thing is that you need to engage with the game more to access the tools; there's no difficulty sliders or menu options. Enemy too hard? Try a different weapon/build, try a different area, summon a friend/npc, or grind for a bit in an easier area. Getting one-shot by overly powered enemy ambushes or traps? Use the telescope to look ahead, move slower and more cautiously, read the messages and warnings and watch the bloodstains when more appear. That or travel with a different load so you can tank surprise hits easier or dodge roll faster. Don't have enough health - almost every game has a ring or accessory which gives you more health, or slowly regenerates it. Elden Ring gives you tonnes of different accessories which raise/lower stats, give you more health or make you stronger.

I guess my frustration is that when I hear people demanding difficulty modes or to change the damage variables, it sounds like people who want something the game already gives you but don't want to do the work to get these things. Sekiro and Bloodborne are far more unyielding in letting you customize your experience and I think that's the biggest criticisms you could hold against them. But for the rest of these games, you can't escape the fact that they will make you work for them, and engage with them, in a way that's a bit much for a lot of people. It was too much for me in DS2 and I honestly really dislike that game, but that's fine - it wasn't for me.

You could totally surface these options and just have difficulty modes on the main menu, but you're still gonna get lost and not know what to do next. You're still gonna have trouble understanding the story or wtf any of these characters are talking about. There's so many other boundaries on top of the game's combat difficulty which would still remain.

Hope that's not too gatekeepy or weird!

Every time there's a discussion on difficulty, or gatekeeping communities, it's always gaming media having these discussions and it's like they're having an argument with a invisible strawman. Sure, there's assholes on the internet who get upset at the "Easy mode" discussion but the attitude has always been completely in-congruent with the Souls series' vibe and these people don't stick around for long in these spaces. Everywhere I've had discussions with other fans of the series, it's like meeting friends at the gym and who are all super supportive and offer advice to each other - it's a lot like the fitness club from Mob Psycho 100 (if you've seen that).

Honestly the only games where there's even room for a more toxic tryhard community are Sekiro and Bloodborne, as these two games force you to play in a specific way which you can't reeeeeally sidestep. In other souls games, you always have options for alternate builds and playstyles which validates a wider audience's preferences but Sekiro in particular (despite being my favourite) demands you perfect a specific dance - and weirdly I've not encountered anyone who's a gatekeeping asshole about that game.

The whole discourse has always been baffling to me because you don't get critics in other art mediums demanding the artists change their art to make it more accessible. They'll respond to it and say "I wish this Merzbow noise album was shorter and hurt my ears less" but it'd be ludicrous of them to say "Merzbow needs to make his music sound less like tv static so that a wider audience can enjoy it." I can't stand Merzbow and I don't demand that he change his music FOR ME. Who do you think you are that you need art to be specifically changed for you? Sure, menus should be readable and UI should be clearer - these games have always sucked ass at these things and you won't get someone slipping into your DMs to brag about knowing what the status effect icons mean XD

I mean there's a difference between having critiques and insisting that these critiques should be listened to and applied, and I've always kinda felt that gaming media are a bit precious with thinking that their words are more prescient and should be listened to. I might be presuming a bit too much but it's always felt a bit that way to me.

Anyway Elden Ring fucking rules and despite (maybe) being a motherfucker of a game, it's the most accessible and I'm glad more people are trying it out!

@justin258:Yeah John Wick bums me out too. It's easy to forget how solid of a film the original is, EVEN with its story, which is hysterical and witty and sharp. I love that it does a lot of weight-pulling not through Keanu's acting or presence, but through everyone reacting to "Oh fuck, the baba yaga", and how that buildup and dread is confirmed by Keanu's outstanding stuntwork more than any monologue or utterance he gives. It's really using the medium as the message and I love it.

To the sequels credit, none of them are bad. The third film has some fucking outstanding fight sequences, and the acting is fine all around. I just wish that instead of these films existing, we got more original projects like Nobody. Nobody is a cliche potpourri and basically 'John Wick but Dad', but it had none of the baggage of previous IPs and could do whatever the hell it wanted. I hope we get more films like Nobody, more original films disconnected from brands, which are ostensibly slight modifications of other films but with more freedom, instead of Man-Man and the Boy 27.