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    StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty

    Game » consists of 10 releases. Released Jul 27, 2010

    The first chapter in the StarCraft II trilogy focuses on the struggles of the Terran race, as seen through the eyes of Commander Jim Raynor, leader of the rebel group Raynor's Raiders.

    Of Diamonds and of Zerg

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    wunder_

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    Edited By wunder_

    Well, I've scraped my way into Diamond. About 180~ games later, my Platinum placed butt has moved from the top 10 position into the top 40 in Diamond. Luckily, or sadly, I've retained a lot of my points and so I entered Diamond around 1000 points in. I've tried to play more games and stay on top of this new league, but I feel it'd getting quite tedious. 
     

    Terran vs Zerg

     I've always felt that this match-up has been the subject of most controversy, and after patch 1.1 and 1.1.2, I'm finding it more and more interesting. However, one major flaw I find with this match-up that I find extremely hard to break is the liberal use of mutalisks. It seems that mutas can make or break an entire army comp and sometimes I'm not sure why a Zerg wouldn't get Mutalisks in a game. Fighting every other Zerg unit is fine, almost easy. However, the balance between fighting a Hydra army or a Muta army is huge. I find Muta/Baneling/Ling is so tough to fight right now and has been for quite a while. Mutalisks can seemingly only be fought feasibly with either 2 or 3 reactor rax or 6 or 7 thors with 1 reactor rax. Am I wrong here? It seems that vikings will get utterly crushed, even if you stay on top of the muta count at the start. I used to open 1-1-1 with an early viking to scout the Spire timing but I find that vikings are really terrible against mutas for several reasons:
    a) It's almost impossible to keep up with the mutalisk count as the Zerg can pump out 5-6 mutalisks at a time
    b) If you decide to try and go for a 2port reactor and try to keep up with the mutalisks, you won't have a ground army to defend his baneling/ling comp. 
    c) Even if you keep up with the muta count, the fact remains that Mutas splash hits 3 targets while Vikings only shoot one volley.
     
    So I'm just wondering what a decent counter to muta/b/ling build is. I've had a bit of success with Thor/Hellion, but I find I must end up getting BioMech with Marines/Marauders/Thors/Hellions/Tanks/Medivacs and just balance between the 6 units depending on the comp of the zerg. I've tried experimenting with GhostMarine Openings or playing with Sky Terran (2Port Banshee/Raven) but they both seem difficult to figure out, at the very least. So I'm just asking any Zergs if they have any advice. The biggest problem I face in this match-up is that the longer the game goes, the easier it is to harass the Terran as my Thors are ridiculously slow and need to be in big numbers and can't be split up or else a group of mutalisks can pick them off really easily. Nydus harass becomes stronger and stronger as the game drags on whereas Mutalisk harass remains strong if not stronger, depending on the map, as I'm spread thinly across my 3rd or even my 4th base. 
     
    In closing, however, I do concede that a good way to combat heavy mutalisk play is by keeping up with your upgrades. Both Weapons and Armor are brilliant against muta/b/ling as the 3rd splash from the muta, which does 1 damage at Air+0, can be negated with +1 armor and +3 armor can negate the 2nd splash as well.  On to the next match-up!
     

    Terran vs Protoss

    This is a match-up I've been really thinking about for a long, long time now, and since the premiere of patch 1.1.2 I thought that some dynamism had finally entered the TvP stream. However, with the
    advent of TLO vs SangHo in the GSL2 Ro64
     we see that mech, specifically, Thors, still don't work against Toss. I thought that with the energy change, Mech can finally see the light against such an anti-mech race. With Immortals and Collosi, blink stalkers and chargelots, Mech is definitely not a viable route for Terran. However, at least without energy, Thors can now be effectively used and not be feedbacked to death. However, it's clear that with a Robo Toss, it's still very hard to use Mech against Toss and MMM+Ghost+Viking is still the most viable strat.
     
    I really feel that TvP is quite stale right now. In the recent MLG DC, GSL2 and Blizzcon Invitational tournaments, we've seen so many TvPs. From SeleCT against KiwiKaki, HuK and NonY, to Loner's 3 bo3s against NEXGenius, we've seen the same TvP builds come out from both Terran and Protoss. A MMM+Viking build vs 3/4GateRobo build. We've seen that neither build is 'imbalanced' and that while
     SeleCT succeeded against the American Toss, Loner got stomped hard by Genius.
    I guess what I'm trying to say is, why hasn't this match-up evolved past MMM against Colossi? Will we ever see Mech or Stargate tech become a viable strat in this match-up?
     

    Terran vs Terran

    Ugh. Save the best for last, I suppose. TvT is probably the most annoying match-up for me. Although it may seem that I've just been whining for a few minutes, these opinions have been with me through many games of practicing with my Zerg and Protoss partners. Although I don't have a Terran partner, and this probably attributes a lot to my dislike of the match-up, I really find TvT simply, frustrating. I'm not sure how to get past the Tank/Viking mentality and I always seem to end up losing the Air battle and just slowly being pushed further and further behind. I thought I was doing well in TvTs but after a few demoralizing losses, I find that I'm either overthinking this match-up or I'm not thinking it over enough. I've tried using Nukes to move the tank line, Thors to wreck viking count, or using marauder packs to take out tanks, but it just doesn't seem to work. 
     
    Bah, I'm so frustrated with this match-up that I can't even really type my actual opinion on this. I feel like TvT is almost like ZvZ except drawn out across a 25-30 minute battle instead of a 7-10 minute battle. All that build up for a 200/200 army just to lose it all to tank fire feels akin to losing all your zerglings to 3 or 4 banelings.
     
    Anyway, that's basically all for now, thanks for taking the time to read this!
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    wunder_

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    #1  Edited By wunder_

    Well, I've scraped my way into Diamond. About 180~ games later, my Platinum placed butt has moved from the top 10 position into the top 40 in Diamond. Luckily, or sadly, I've retained a lot of my points and so I entered Diamond around 1000 points in. I've tried to play more games and stay on top of this new league, but I feel it'd getting quite tedious. 
     

    Terran vs Zerg

     I've always felt that this match-up has been the subject of most controversy, and after patch 1.1 and 1.1.2, I'm finding it more and more interesting. However, one major flaw I find with this match-up that I find extremely hard to break is the liberal use of mutalisks. It seems that mutas can make or break an entire army comp and sometimes I'm not sure why a Zerg wouldn't get Mutalisks in a game. Fighting every other Zerg unit is fine, almost easy. However, the balance between fighting a Hydra army or a Muta army is huge. I find Muta/Baneling/Ling is so tough to fight right now and has been for quite a while. Mutalisks can seemingly only be fought feasibly with either 2 or 3 reactor rax or 6 or 7 thors with 1 reactor rax. Am I wrong here? It seems that vikings will get utterly crushed, even if you stay on top of the muta count at the start. I used to open 1-1-1 with an early viking to scout the Spire timing but I find that vikings are really terrible against mutas for several reasons:
    a) It's almost impossible to keep up with the mutalisk count as the Zerg can pump out 5-6 mutalisks at a time
    b) If you decide to try and go for a 2port reactor and try to keep up with the mutalisks, you won't have a ground army to defend his baneling/ling comp. 
    c) Even if you keep up with the muta count, the fact remains that Mutas splash hits 3 targets while Vikings only shoot one volley.
     
    So I'm just wondering what a decent counter to muta/b/ling build is. I've had a bit of success with Thor/Hellion, but I find I must end up getting BioMech with Marines/Marauders/Thors/Hellions/Tanks/Medivacs and just balance between the 6 units depending on the comp of the zerg. I've tried experimenting with GhostMarine Openings or playing with Sky Terran (2Port Banshee/Raven) but they both seem difficult to figure out, at the very least. So I'm just asking any Zergs if they have any advice. The biggest problem I face in this match-up is that the longer the game goes, the easier it is to harass the Terran as my Thors are ridiculously slow and need to be in big numbers and can't be split up or else a group of mutalisks can pick them off really easily. Nydus harass becomes stronger and stronger as the game drags on whereas Mutalisk harass remains strong if not stronger, depending on the map, as I'm spread thinly across my 3rd or even my 4th base. 
     
    In closing, however, I do concede that a good way to combat heavy mutalisk play is by keeping up with your upgrades. Both Weapons and Armor are brilliant against muta/b/ling as the 3rd splash from the muta, which does 1 damage at Air+0, can be negated with +1 armor and +3 armor can negate the 2nd splash as well.  On to the next match-up!
     

    Terran vs Protoss

    This is a match-up I've been really thinking about for a long, long time now, and since the premiere of patch 1.1.2 I thought that some dynamism had finally entered the TvP stream. However, with the
     we see that mech, specifically, Thors, still don't work against Toss. I thought that with the energy change, Mech can finally see the light against such an anti-mech race. With Immortals and Collosi, blink stalkers and chargelots, Mech is definitely not a viable route for Terran. However, at least without energy, Thors can now be effectively used and not be feedbacked to death. However, it's clear that with a Robo Toss, it's still very hard to use Mech against Toss and MMM+Ghost+Viking is still the most viable strat.
     
    I really feel that TvP is quite stale right now. In the recent MLG DC, GSL2 and Blizzcon Invitational tournaments, we've seen so many TvPs. From SeleCT against KiwiKaki, HuK and NonY, to Loner's 3 bo3s against NEXGenius, we've seen the same TvP builds come out from both Terran and Protoss. A MMM+Viking build vs 3/4GateRobo build. We've seen that neither build is 'imbalanced' and that while
    I guess what I'm trying to say is, why hasn't this match-up evolved past MMM against Colossi? Will we ever see Mech or Stargate tech become a viable strat in this match-up?
     

    Terran vs Terran

    Ugh. Save the best for last, I suppose. TvT is probably the most annoying match-up for me. Although it may seem that I've just been whining for a few minutes, these opinions have been with me through many games of practicing with my Zerg and Protoss partners. Although I don't have a Terran partner, and this probably attributes a lot to my dislike of the match-up, I really find TvT simply, frustrating. I'm not sure how to get past the Tank/Viking mentality and I always seem to end up losing the Air battle and just slowly being pushed further and further behind. I thought I was doing well in TvTs but after a few demoralizing losses, I find that I'm either overthinking this match-up or I'm not thinking it over enough. I've tried using Nukes to move the tank line, Thors to wreck viking count, or using marauder packs to take out tanks, but it just doesn't seem to work. 
     
    Bah, I'm so frustrated with this match-up that I can't even really type my actual opinion on this. I feel like TvT is almost like ZvZ except drawn out across a 25-30 minute battle instead of a 7-10 minute battle. All that build up for a 200/200 army just to lose it all to tank fire feels akin to losing all your zerglings to 3 or 4 banelings.
     
    Anyway, that's basically all for now, thanks for taking the time to read this!
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    Donos

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    #2  Edited By Donos

    Your conclusions sound pretty logical to me. Now, my advice may not be the best if you want to stay in Diamond, but here I go:
     
    Against Zerg, I'd encourage you to try some more Ghosts. What I find is that massing Mutalisks is easy because they move so fast and heal automatically, meaning they can be used for constant harass  and escape before a single mutalisk dies. With some mass sniping action, you can get a kill or two faster than the Mutalisks can escape, forcing the player to choose between muta harassment and muta massing, instead of both at once.
     
    Against Protoss.... I don't really have much. If every Protoss is going to go the same build, you're going to have to respond pretty much the same way every time. Random thought: Marines + Banshee/Ghost?
     
    Finally, against Terran, I'd like to see someone mess around with Reapers for some late-game harassment and flanking against seige tanks/Marines. The way I see it, mass viking usually shuts down late game harassment (read: drops), or slows it down enough for the slow tank army to arrive. Reapers are significantly less vulnerable to this. Also, with the tank damage reduction vs light, I think speed Reapers just might be able to reach point blank range and snipe tanks/cut down marines.

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    wchigo

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    #3  Edited By wchigo

    I know that as a Protoss player, I get a lot more comfortable once it gets to the later stages of the game when Colossi and High Templar hit the field. Before then, and for that matter before I get a Robotics Facility down to do some scouting, I tend to be a little worried about the number of viable openings that a Terran player has. Marine/Banshee/Raven, Marine/Tank/Raven, Marine/Thor with SCVs for repair, etc. The opening I'm probably most comfortable defending against, oddly enough, is a pure bio push early in the game (2/3 rax). While I certainly wish the match-ups would open up from what they are now, I think it's going to be quite some time before that happens. I mean, look at how long Brood War has been out: I'm sure the builds that we see nowadays were never even thought of back in the early days of the game.
     
    I can't offer much of an opinion on TvZ or TvT as much since I tend to only play T in team or custom games with friends. But if I'm on and you want to play some games to practice your TvP, hit me up. I'd be more than happy to spar with ya.

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    leburgan

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    #4  Edited By leburgan

    Just hit diamond too along with a wall. Can't beat early pvt and pvz with a roach rush kills me.

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    raiz265

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    #5  Edited By raiz265

    I've always felt TvZ was the hardest matchup for me, no matter how much people whined about reapers being imba or whatever (fun fact, making 5rax reaper a viable strat demanded some sick ass multitasking...). I'm pretty much in the same situation as you are, I can't handle the mobility and flexibilty of Zerg in the later stages of the game and with the recent nerf to the strong early game opportunities of Terran it has gotten much worse. 
    If you go MMM both the Marines and even the Medivacs get owned by Banelings. You either stand there trying to gun them down (which will most likely will fail if he has more than 5 of those rolling little fuckers) or you try to kite which then kinda counters Medivacs since they can't heal while moving (no, I don't want them to heal while moving) and then Lings/Roaches/Mutas/Whatever deal the damage to your running army. I won't even think about Fungal Growth or I'll start to cry. 
    If you go for a Mech build on the other hand your just slow and Vikings fail utterly. You either have to invest a huge load of minerals into Turrets or you have to park Thors all around the freakin map to deal with the inevitable Muta harass. At least the Tanks tend to deal with the Ground forces pretty nicely in that situation... As long as the Zerg doesn't go crazy with Nydus Worms all over the place. Slow Mech is slow. 
     
    Best way so far has been a mix of MMM+Tanks+Thors. But going allround sometimes leads to not having enough of one unit which the Zerg can abuse by completely Tech switching in a matter of seconds... 
     
    I suspect that the Raven could possibly be the key to the problem, the Seeker Missile seems heavily underused and I feel nobody has actually used it to it's full potential yet... 
     
     
    TvP has probably always been my favourite matchup, but it's gone downhill for me as people seem to figure out how to survive the early game. You have some windows of opportunity open in the early stages of the game, Marine+Banshee+Raven pushes can end the game instantly in some cases, simple 3rax stim timing pushes can lead be succesfull too. But again, as the clock ticks it's getting harder and harder since the Protoss still progresses and as Terran your pretty much stepping on the same spot, you're basically stuck with MMM the whole game and as soon as both Colossi and Storm are ready for the Protoss you're just trying to slalom your way through their massive splash damage. 
     
    Looking back at Blizzcon though I have hopes that it will get better in future patches David Kim said that the feedback they get about this matchup varies quite a bit. 
    ->  David Kim Interview 
     
     
    TvT... yeah... I don't know. It can produce some really epic matches to watch (TLO v Hyperdub @ GSL#1, DeMusliM v Maka @ Blizzcon) but it is so! fucking! exhausting! 
    Most of the time I try some Bio heavy timing push or Banshee rush to end the game asap since I don't want it to end in some WW1-esque besieging of the Siege Tanks...

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    Th3_James

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    #6  Edited By Th3_James

    Well I fucked my placement matches, so I gave up.

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    wunder_

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    #7  Edited By wunder_
    @Donos: Thanks for your response! I have been experimenting heavily with Ghost Marine and they are very, very effective against Muta/B/Ling. The problems I face when going Ghost/Marine is the fact that my tech is much faster than the Spire, so it's rather presumptuous of me to go Ghost/Marine and assume the Zerg is going Mutalisks, even though in practice, my partner WILL go mutalisk. The other problem is that I can't seem to find a decent transition out of this, perhaps Thor/Hellion? I still need to try this more on different Zergs.
     
    @wchigo: Thanks for the offer Wchigo ^^ I'd love to try some TvP with you!
     
    @tankintheair315: I assume you're toss? Heavy Sentry Stalker comps really beat the shit out of early 2/3 rax pushes with good FFs, especially if they invest in an early stim. If you're Terran, similar thing applies, watch out for heavy sentry stalker comps :P
     
    @raiz265: Thanks for the response, I definitely agree with the Raven being a key unit that is definitely underutilized and I'm trying to incorporate it into my play, but it's nigh impossible to get a raven and thors at the same time. >< As for TvP, I've been experimenting with both iEchoic's 1/1/2 build as well as Double Armory builds.


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    leburgan

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    #8  Edited By leburgan
    @Wunder_: Yeah I'm toss, we played 2nd round losers in the last tourney and had a pretty good match. i just can't handle ghosts, kills the force fields...
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    Donos

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    #9  Edited By Donos

    I ran a few trials of Ghost vs Zerg, and I think I've managed to smooth it out some. First off, it seemed to work better to go Marauder/Ghost than Marine/Ghost, because the Marauders do a better job soaking up damage to let the Ghost get it's snipes off, resulting in a stronger general-purpose army, if a bit weaker against mass mutalisk (though that's not really possible this early anyways). Most importantly, this shuts down the Roach attack I would be worried about with Marine/Ghost. Also, it lets you make continuous use of the tech lab you built for the Ghost. I figured the only major vulnurability of this army was speedlings, so I built a factory which let me make a few hellions and  a nuke. After that I timed a push with the nuke, which seemed to work well. If the Zerg leaves their choke to attack, you can run the aforementioned hellions in for some harass. If not, you can nuke their choke and the Zerg is basically trapped (extra trapped because the nuke kills their forward creep tumors). I found it easiest to expand around now.
     
    For the transition, the smoothest one I found was switching the factory for a barracks tech lab and building either Tanks (if they go Hydralisk against your Marauders) or Thors (If they do in fact go mass Mutalisk, and you want to supplement your ghosts), and maybe some marines from that barracks. Finally, build a starport, and make some medivacs to boost your largely bio army and give you the Thor drop option or sight for your tanks. If you want, you can have that newly de-tech-labbed barracks build a reactor for your starport to land on, speeding medivac production if your army's taken a beating.

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    DoctorWelch

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    #10  Edited By DoctorWelch
    TvZ: I like to go Tank Thor Marine and only use the starport for cloaked or uncloaked Banshees if I find the time is right and the match dictates. I usually start off with a barracks then a factory and try to get my tank with siege quickly and add on either a second factory or barracks with reactor while I am waiting. Then when I get like two tanks out I expand. From there I usually adjust my play to whatever fits. I almost always get a fast engineering bay for turrets because 99/100 times they will be getting mutas, and depending on how the match is going I might get cloaked banshees or just add the banshees into my army. I like this composition the most because the tanks destroy banelings and lings, Thors crush mutas pretty hard especially if you have some marines mixed in, as long as you dont get your marines killed by banes or your tanks out of position you should be good. Then you just have to play it like your playing a TvT, march carefully march you tanks across the map until you crush him. You have to make sure you have enough turrets to defend mutas, and if he decides to go for a shit load of mutas, he isnt going to have much of a ground army so just make more Thors than tanks, and roll over him. The biggest concern is if the Zerg player has like a million bases and just out macros you, but you should be scouting for this and adjust your play accordingly. 
     
    Also, this is just a little fun thing to remember, but Marauders are actually pretty good against banelings because they dont die nearly as quick as marines. If you have a marine and marauder based army you can drop the marauders on the banes or just make sure a few marauders are out in front and the banelings can be nullified pretty hard. 
     
    TvP: Let me just say I still think that bio is the way to go in this matchup, but taking that TLO match as a reason to say mech doesnt work isnt a good idea. If you watch the game, the reason TLO lost wasnt because the Thors are bad against that army, but because where and how he engaged was sooooooooo terrible. He engaged in a small little chock and for some reason decided to send his Thors (with superior range to most units) in first. So by the time they got the 250mm cannon off, they were already dead. To make TLO's composition work, he should have engaged in a wider area and made sure his Thors were in the back because of there insane range. 
     
    That being said, I find this matchup really annoying for Terran. I feel like you have to do whatever you can to prevent this matchup from going late game because if it lasts too long, your screwed. There is no possible way the Terran can deal with Colossi and Storm, it just isnt really possible. Well, I guess it is possible, but the amount of control and skill it takes is insane. You have to make sure your dogging storms while trying to get your ghosts in suitable positions to emp the HT before than can get the storms off, but at the same time you have to control your vikings to make sure you can effectively snipe the Colossi. It's just ridiculous how hard it is for Terran to deal with it, especially when emp is like half the size of storm, and the Terran army clumps together twice as much. It's really difficult to be effective with the Terran army, while all Protoss really has to do is: control 1= whole army, control 2=HTs, 1 attack, 2 storm, game over. 
     
    I just think it is sorta crazy how Protoss can get storm and Colossi with range in the end game and the Terran cant even fall back to a PF effectively (as we saw in the blizzcon finals match). Other than that though, I think this matchup is pretty well balanced. 
     
    TvT: I agree, this matchup used to be annoying when it was purely Tank Viking, and now it is even more annoying. Now you have to make sure you get some Marauders in there, but then you have to make sure that you are getting air control, but you can goo too hard with the tanks because if he stops making tanks and goes for Battle cruisers your screwed, so then you need to have some other kind of air defense, but if you make marines they get crushed by tanks...ect. As of now I find this matchup to be super stupid because I feel like whoever can trick their opponent, or tech switch the most wins. Then if two people play a straight up game of tank marauder viking, it's whoever gets the contain first wins whether it be at the 10 minute mark or the 20 minute mark. That's just my view of things as they stand now. I know that eventually people will find the best way to play this matchup, but as of now it is just soooooo stupid. 
     
    All in all...I am thinking about switching to Zerg. Not because Zerg is the somehow the strongest now or something, but because I have always wanted to play Zerg and I feel they are the most fun. I never wanted to switch because of all the stupid Reaper shit that was going on, and because they were obviously the hardest race to learn. I just picked Terran because, like most players, I was the most familiar with them going in, and while I was learning the basics, I didnt want to switch and have to relearn everything and start from scratch. Now that I am confident with my play though, I feel like switching to Zerg might be refreshing and fun for a while.
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    StarvingGamer

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    #11  Edited By StarvingGamer
    @Wunder_: If you want to work on your TvZ, TvP or TvT I wouldn't mind losing to you a few times :D  When are you on?
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    wunder_

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    #12  Edited By wunder_
    @StarvingGamer: :P Thanks Unfortunately I'm in Singapore so times will be a bit sketchy for you, but add me! Wunder.528 and just pm me whenever you're online ^^
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    sixghost

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    #13  Edited By sixghost

    You should study up on some of the modern TvZ build orders Wunder, hardly anyone goes 1/1/1 these days. It's sorta been figured out. Zerg's are much better at defending all the silliness that can be done by a 1/1/1. Viking openings really don't do anything, banshees get less and less effective as zerg's deal with them more and more, stuff like hellion drops have become less effective with the roach buff and just zergs growing experience against them.  Most of the people I practice with, and play against on the ladder are opting for faster expansions, like 1fact cc, or even 14cc.
     
    You should mess around with some pre-medic timing attacks. Check out idra's game vs qxc on metalopolis if you are curious about that. Those kinds of builds are a fucking nightmare for me if I'm opening mutas.
     
    And as for how to beat mutalingbling, lots and lots of marines/medics with tanks with good micro. You need to stim the marines and run them away from the blings, stopping to get damage in whenever you can. It's really important not get your marines fungaled or surrounded. The tanks job is almost entirely to destroy the blings and let the marines shred the leftover muta/ling.

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    StarvingGamer

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    #14  Edited By StarvingGamer
    @Wunder_: What times (Singapore time) do you usually play?  I have a fairly erratic schedule but I can guide it slightly if I think you might be on.
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    wunder_

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    #15  Edited By wunder_
    @sixghost: I've tried to read up on workable TvZ strats but there hasn't been anything definitive out yet and a lot of people still open Reactor Hellion into Expand. I've been experimenting with 1rax FEs or Siege Tank expand and those have been working out decently for me. I'm trying to get a decent bio push off 2base to try and snipe a queen/force lings but I can't really get the timing down. When's the fastest time you can get Spire? By fastest I mean in a normal game, not specifically rushing for Lair then Spire. 
     
    @StarvingGamer: Hmm, I usually play after a day[9] daily which is around 11/12am SGT and I'll probably get in another session around 9-10pm too for a couple hours.

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    #16  Edited By sixghost
    @Wunder_ said:

    " @sixghost: I've tried to read up on workable TvZ strats but there hasn't been anything definitive out yet and a lot of people still open Reactor Hellion into Expand. I've been experimenting with 1rax FEs or Siege Tank expand and those have been working out decently for me. I'm trying to get a decent bio push off 2base to try and snipe a queen/force lings but I can't really get the timing down. When's the fastest time you can get Spire? By fastest I mean in a normal game, not specifically rushing for Lair then Spire. 
     
    @StarvingGamer: Hmm, I usually play after a day[9] daily which is around 11/12am SGT and I'll probably get in another session around 9-10pm too for a couple hours. "

    I could tell you the exact timing of mutas in BW from like 4 different builds, but I really don't understand SC2 as well as that game. I'll look it up for you if you want.
     Mutas come out generally around 7:20. Like I said, check out the replays from qxc vs idra in MLG, or watch LoneR's TvZ games from Blizzcon. PM me if you need help finding those replays.
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    #17  Edited By wunder_
    @sixghost: If it isn't too much trouble ^^; I've sort of narrowed it down to about 8-10 minutes but I was just wondering if you knew roughly from a Zerg standpoint.
     
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