This might seem like a fairly inocuous move on the part of Microsoft, some (uneducated) people might even view it as a good thing.
However, it's actually quite an underhanded dastardly corperate move that gains them significant advantage in the months to come if any of the rumors are true about them trying to force indie studios out of Xbox Live.
You see, Communitye Games, XNA development, are small teams of 1+ bedroom programmers, often working on their own free time while they work or study, these are not proffesional developers, and as the service only accepts XNA produced games, there is little flexibility there for those with access to the better technologies. It's great for learning and maybe earning a bit of cash if you strike it lucky.
However, for a proffesional indie developer, there is no difference between them any ANY OTHER DEVELOPER. The only difference is who owns the company, in this case, somebody instead of a publishing company. There is no difference in wages, staff numbers (although some are on the small side it is VERY VERY rarely any less than something like 12 people) production quality etc etc.
The advantage this rename gives them leads me to beleive the complaints of indie developers are indeed true and that Microsoft is forcing them out of XBLA in favor of larger publishers pumping out remakes or re-releases. While I welcome these remakes/re-releases, we should also be welcoming creative indipendant offerings.
How does this give them an advantage you ask? Look around you, ignorance is everywhere, the second people begin to equate the word 'indie' with 'those shitty massage and art gallery games' that's it, the whole into plight is reduced to one comment "If you wanted to be on XBLA you wouldnt make shitty art gallery games" one ignorant, misinformed comment suddenly becomes the whole consumer worlds view on indie developers.
Most proper indie developers (IE the ones described above, the companies) have nothing to gain from developing XNA games, they dont have the ability to advertise them, use different game engines, provide DLC, a proper demo, etc etc. Indie devs have the same needs as regular developers.
So I ask you, if in the coming months it does turn out to be true and we hear more complaints from indie devs about getting onto XBLA, don't be an ignorant fuck, educate yourselves and realise that they are not talking about 2 or 3 people who still live in their mothers basement and are bitching because they can't get onto a proffesional outlet. They are teams of proffesionals who have a product to sell that is essentially worth the same as any product from any other developer and should be given fair right of passage and judged solely on it's quality, not just how much advertising money the company has access to.
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Very unhappy with the Indie games 'relabeling'
I'll be honest, I've only just woke up and I haven't the energy to read all of that yet. But the relabling was due to demand from XNA developers, thay wanted the name change.
I don't see how they're forced out of XBLA. Did Microsoft's acceptance policies grow stricter? XNA is for those who don't have the means to go on XBLA, and for them, it sounds perfect. Those who had the means pre-XNA, to go on XBLA, still have the same means and ability, no?
The relabeling is a different issue and it does seem somewhat harmful, but hey, those people that will fall for it are the same people who probably wouldn't care for indie games regardless. Only their reasons for not caring will have changed. Though I'm sure that when XBLA releases happen, they'll take note, since they won't be associated with XNA, even if they're still announced as indie titles.
And of course large publishers have the advantage. They always do. Money talks, and this is no different. And of course indie companies with the means you're discussing here shouldn't go for XNA. It's not for them. They should just apply for XBLA titles. Or release on PC. PSN. WiiWare. Etc.
XNA is for the bedroom developer as you say yourself, so, it doesn't affect other indies in the least. They should simply not care for it.
"I'll be honest, I've only just woke up and I haven't the energy to read all of that yet. But the relabling was due to demand from XNA developers, thay wanted the name change. "
Well if that's true, they are about to do irreversable damage, besides, there is every chance MS opportunistically approved the name.
The problem here is that there is such a huge range in the quality of 'indie' games that associating proper, trading companies who put out proffesional level products with some of the shit on Community Games who aren't even operating as a company, and in many cases are just one person just leads to even more consumer ignorance and a gleefull acceptance the next time Microsoft pulls a shitty move and waves there arms going "It's ok, it's only INDIE games LOLOLOL!!!!" despite the fact many quality, high selling titles on XBLA were made by indie developers, Braid, Castle Crashers, ANYTHING made by Backbone, including the majority of Capcom stuff including HD Remix (Yes, Backbone is independant, Capcom just licensed them the games to work on) Pirates VS Ninjas dodgeball, Sam and Max and the Penny Arcade games. And many more of varying quality.
Don't get me wrong, i'm now setting out to shit on small indie developers who are just learning their trade, but they have to realise that this renaming is a really, really bad idea and gives microsoft the option to do a lot of bad things for essentially, no public backlash as the majority of consumers will simply assume anything with the word "indie" anywhere near it only applies to art galleries and massage programs.
Edit:
@Al3xand3r:
That's the point entirely, they might not have the means, the rumor goes that microsoft is decreasing the allocation of games it allows released on XBLA from indie developers, and upping the allocation given to larger publishers cranking out remakes.
And i'm not worried about games that come out on XBLA not getting noticed, i'm worried about nobody caring when legitimate releases are refused access to XBLA simply because they are an indie developer, and that nobody will be upset by this because "Oh well, it's just shitty 'indie' games, they should be on 'Indie Games' anyway durrr hurrr hurrr" Even if something is not associated with XNA, after all it's only vaguely educated consumer who even know what XNA is, your average consumer will hear "indie game" and think "indie games tab" and go "Ewww, i'm GLAD its not coming to XBLA!!!!"
XNA doesnt effect other indies no, yo're right but that's not what i'm implying here. I'm implying that this renaming negatively effects the ability of an indie developer to get their game onto XBLA, something which is a struggle to do anyway given Microsofts insane demands list for what your game must do, which, yes, have gotten more stringent recently. Most of it is inane stuff like MUST have a leaderboard, MUST have online netcode etc, even for single player games. It's time-wasting stuff basicly.
I honestly dont care if they push Indie games out. I will however say that its a bit soon to start getting out the pitchforks here, even if the worst happens then that still dosent mean its some kind of deliberate attempt to push out indie games. Restructuring happens and sometimes things get left out stuck between 2 catagorys they dont really fit into. In the end this is a tough buisness, if the games themselves by these publishers are actualy any good they will get out there with or without xbox live.
"@The_A_Drain: Wait, forgive me if I'm wrong but isn't the re-naming just for XNA Community Games? That's what I've been reading. Why would people associate them with XBLA games?"
God see this is exactly what i'm talking about. You people DONT KNOW THE DIFFERENCE and cannot see how this is going to badly effect indie developers. Such a shame.
I'm saying that if indeed Microsoft starts pushing out indie developers, they are likely to go unchallenged by the community because the average consumer will now associate the word 'indie' with 'that shit in the other tab' and the moment he hears the word indie in any kind of news article, ceases to give a fuck. Hence, MS can push indie developers out of XBLA without any opposition from their consumer base simply because they are too misinformed to know what they are actually losing out on.
@Atramentous:
Just the kind of ignorant comment I expected. Yes, restructuring etc happens i'm not arguing that. But arguing that indie games "don't really fit in either" of the two categories is complete bullshit. They fit right on XBLA alongside other proffesionally produced products, and XNA games are that and that alone, games made with the XNA framework via the 'Community Games' program, essentially a method to help student game developers get some games out there to the masses. Indie games from larger indepentant studios are not caught in the middle of anything, they are perfectly at home on XBLA there is no reason they should be anywhere else. As I said, the only difference between them and any other developer, is who owns the company. Thats it.
As for honestly not caring if they pus indie games out, do you mean the name change, or do you mean indie companies losing out on XBLA placement? Because if you mean the second, you might as well delete any of the following from your HDD, you obviously dont want them. Braid, Castle Crashers, ANYTHING made by Backbone, including the majority of Capcom stuff including HD Remix (Yes, Backbone is independant, Capcom just licensed them the games to work on) Pirates VS Ninjas dodgeball, Sam and Max and the Penny Arcade games. And many more of varying quality.
Calm down kid, your going to have a stroke. I stand by everything I said and I would apreciate that if you are going to debate my opinions then you atleast give me the courtesy of not resorting to insults. I am not a fanboy and I do not need to be spoken too as it I was one.
Any indie games that I would be interested in I can get for PC. Thus I do not care about them being on XBL.
"Calm down kid, your going to have a stroke. I stand by everything I said and I would apreciate that if you are going to debate my opinions then you atleast give me the courtesy of not resorting to insults. I am not a fanboy and I do not need to be spoken too as it I was one.Any indie games that I would be interested in I can get for PC. Thus I do not care about them being on XBL."
Why are you even bothering to debate this topic then? Like I said, you clearly dont care about them and have nothing more to input other than "LOLOLOL I dunt care!!"
Games such as the ones I mentioned above are incredibly high quality titles and do not deserve to be shoved by the way side, so neither should any future titles from those developers.
Well, glad you could bring yourself above petty insults for atleast a single post. Wait, scratch that.
Lets recap here.
1. They havent changed anything.
2. If they do change something it will basicly boil down too clicking on another tab.
3. You are very obstinant, you should work on that.
4. If the games are any good they will still get the same coverage, again people will only need to change tabs.
5. I still have yet too see how anyone would be "pushed out" of anything. This is all just silly. Get a grip.
Why am I bothering? Becouse I made the mistake of thinking this could be a normal discussion, not a one sided debate were only the opinions of one sad little man matter =) Dont worry, I wont make that mistake again. Cheers.
1. Yes, they have. But on it's own, it's not significant.
2. No, it won't. That's not what's being discussed here at all if you can't see that you need to read the posts again.
3. That would require a decent argument against mine in order for me to be obstinant, so far all you've done is offer a narrow minded viewpoint, and stated you dont actually care. If that's supposed to be enough to persuade me, then damn.
4. No, this comment is... well.. I don't even know how you came up with it. Games from indie developers that would be put on XBLA won't re-appear in the indie games tab, they will simply not be published on XBLA if Microsoft decide not to do so, which is increasingly looking to be the case as they refuse to publish more and more indie games. The 'indie' tab is for XNA games and XNA games only. They have simply changed the name, not the function. See what I mean about people not actually knowing the difference and assuming everythings ok, and that Indie games don't matter? Yeah, no I didn't think so because you don't know the difference yourself.
5. I have a grip, it's you that doesn't actually see what's going on here. My point, is that by renaming Community Games to Indie Games, Microsoft can refuse to put out more and more indie games on Xbox LIVE in favor of the larger publisher games because it brings more money. I'm not arguing against that, it's simply how business works, tough shit. However, by changing the name of Community Games to Indie Games, it simply pulls the wool over the publics eyes, from that moment forward whenever they hear the word 'indie' they will associate that with the games from the 'indie' tab. Which means that indie developers will not get the public support they need as Microsoft begin to push more and more indie developers off of xbox live. As I said, they are already cutting down the slots for independant developers, they show no signs of stopping. All this name change means is that the public won't know what they are losing until it's gone. Which is unnacceptable, and unfair to everybody, developers and consumers.
If you can't see that, you're one of the very people i'm talking about, who doesn't see what is happening because he is too misinformed. Now that's not your fault, you're not expected to know the ins and outs of the industry etc you're a consumer. But don't you think it's complete bullshit you're being manipulated in such a fashion? You're really telling me you think XBLA would be the same without things like HD Remix, Briad and Castle Crashers? You'd really rather have cheap re-release after cheap re-release?
Also, this would have been a regular discussion had you not waltzed in here spouting "LOLOL I dont care, I can gets all my indie games on PC lololol" Did you ever stop to think that those very indie developers you're supporting on PC might be a little upset that Microsoft is stymying there efforts to get games onto XBLA?
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