"Spend a fuck tonne of money and you can get a machine that will play video games! "


Stop the presses....

whole lotta tears up in here

@patrickklepek said:

Game Center handles friends, achievements, matchmaking, and has largely eliminated competition in that category

Steam doesn't work on Mac anymore?

that's a pretty nice display.  the rest of it isn't all that great though especially for the price

I'm hoping with the drastically reduced heat and power suck from the 600 series of cards, gaming laptops will become more viable. Watching my friend go on constant searches for fans and stuff to prop is laptop on makes me sad.

@wewantsthering: I'm pretty sure that the Xbox PS3 and even the Wii far outsell Apple TV's wildest dreams. Always remember that those are the real set-top boxes they have to compete with.

Good luck getting more than 1FPS max settings GT650M @ 2880x1800. Theres nothing powerful about this laptop gaming wise, mostly due to the screen. You will be forced to play everything down at 1920x1080 if that, and mid settings (Witcher 2 base). 

@Wandrecanada said:

@wewantsthering: I'm pretty sure that the Xbox PS3 and even the Wii far outsell Apple TV's wildest dreams. Always remember that those are the real set-top boxes they have to compete with.

You are correct with your information, but it doesn't really counter what I was saying. In fact I would say that if they want to compete against Xbox and PS3, one way to do that would be by letting the Apple TV become more like a gaming console in the sorts of content that they let people develop for it. I was responding to whether they have a large enough install base to make it useful and it is. If they make the platform more useful, they wil draw in even more users.

If I had to choose between Apple or a Windows 8 shitputer made by HP or whatever? I'd choose Apple, every time.

A lot of PC gamers are also hardware enthusiasts, who build their own systems, myself included. A lot of these people don't realize that, while building a computer isn't particularly hard, most people don't want to do it. They also don't want to spend hours on end tweaking stuff to get it juuuuuuuust right. Apple wins a lot of points with these people, in that an Apple computer is usually higher-end in terms of specs, and has an OS and user experience tailored for the overall environment. With PC OEMs, you find yourself running into companies who will shove in the cheapest components possible to try and maximize their already razor-thin profits, with little concern for longevity or quality.

In addition, contrary to some claims, the customization is there. It's just that you generally don't have to do it just to get the OS working in a way that's not invasive or otherwise stupid. Everything about the experience is understand, and perhaps more importantly, consistent. You know where a UI element is going to be, every time. Contrast this to Youtube videos of Windows 8, where people need help just to figure out how to login to the piece of shit.

I also work in IT, and I'm noticing a lot of IT workers switching over to Apple in their home and office. After dealing with years (or decades) of being the "computer guy" who has to deal with everything from shitty bloated printer drivers to Windows' own tendency to destroy itself after a couple years of solid use on a single install (something a friend terms "creeping crud"), the switch to a computer that claims to Just Work, and backs that claim up, is inviting. Honestly, if it weren't for the price, I'd keep a PC just for games, and use a Mac for everything else. For things that aren't games, they're pretty great, to the point where I'd be so bold as to suggest that - barring some sort of enormous blunder - Macs will probably become the new standard for general purpose "get shit done" computers.

@Rawson: "If I had to choose between Apple or a Windows 8 shitputer"

Totally unbiased opening. That makes me want to read you giant wall of text so bad.

@Hef: For a lot of people, that is the exact decision they're looking at.

Also, I'm giving my opinion. A bias would be if I worked for Apple.

That screen is great and all, but I seriously doubt that the GPU will be able to render that resolution in any newer games on high setting.

@Rawson said:

@Hef: For a lot of people, that is the exact decision they're looking at.

Dammit, this kind of stuff makes me want to punch the screen. I would KILL to live in a world where I was presented with this kind of choice that people seem to keep taking as commonplace. In the world where I live, the decision is between a Macbook Pro, and 3 to 5 similarly specc'ed Windows laptops. WHERE THE FUCK are people getting such cheap Apple products???!!!! I'd almost rather have 1 Macbook than 5 of my Toshiba laptops, but the price just makes this damned near impossible.

@umdesch4: Student discounts, eBay, and/or just generally saving up. In some instances, it's cheaper in the long run to just buy a Mac that works and will continue working well for years, than it is to buy a computer that will repeatedly break and require repairs. Compound this with the millions of people whose idea of repair involves Geek Squad or some other overpriced service, and it starts to make financial sense for a lot of people to skip it all and just go with Apple.

@TMThomsen said:

That screen is great and all, but I seriously doubt that the GPU will be able to render that resolution in any newer games on high setting.

Yeah the takeaway for me is that this will hopefully propel the entire industry to move this direction so I can have a 24" retina display for my gaming PC. :-)

Apple is shit.

They could be nice, but the resolutions at those price points...

13" Macbook should be 1440xwhatever

15" should be 1680xwhatever or 1920xwhatever

New mag connector? Seriously? Ugh... Its a $10 adapter, for pennies worth of materials that really serves no purpose. Well, better a $10 adapter than a $130 power adapter.

I love the trackpad on my MBP. I love how I can cram 2 SSDs in it. It feels more solid than my XPS13 I bought three years ago. That works just fine. And my XPS17 I bought 6 years ago. That works perfectly. And my Inspiron 8100 I bought 13 years ago, that has a dead battery, but works just fine otherwise.

The new 13" MBA looks nice and the price drop is nice, too. I just wish they had a higher end version with a pro screen; the airs I've seen in person have iffy viewing angles and just aren't as nice as the pro screens, even though they enjoy a higher resolution.

That's so much fucking money.

Oh how the times have changed. Mac=Work, PC=Play

I don't trust Microsoft products with fucking anything. I not even sync up my Dropbox stuff because I am afraid they will mess it up. Fucking bugs in windows. Office is not better. Try writing a PhD thesis with it. Messed up the file after about 100 pages. Thank god for backups.

Now I can not use Game Center on my Mac. Yay?

Absurdly powerful? I assume that's a joke?

Wow, last year people were giving Patrick all kinds of shit for posting Apple info.

2880x1800 with a... 650M? What kind of crack are they smoking? I really don't see the point of making any marketing towards gamers with this hardware and that screen. People would have to be crazy to actually think they can game on the "retina display" with that hardware. When you have to scale everything down to 720p, what's the point?

As for special treatment with D3 and 2880x1800, people have been gaming with 2560x1600 on PC since beta, so I don't see where Patrick is going with that comment. It is a screen resolution, the UI scales with it.

Here is a list of what the GeForce GT 650M is capable of. http://www.notebookcheck.net/Computer-Games-on-Laptop-Graphic-Cards.13849.0.html

It averages 47 fps running Diablo 3 on ultra at 1920x1080, so I'm guessing it could do a 1/3 of that at 2880 x 1800.

Meh, I have a desktop PC that does pretty much everything (except Xcode), and a Macbook Pro that I installed Windows on so that it could be useful. In my opinion the only great thing about Macs are the trackpads. Everything else just feels so stifling.

Also, I don't know the value of a retina display on a laptop, with a resolution of 1440 by 900 on my 15" screen I can hardly discern individual pixels already.

Apple makes sexy products but what I always tell my customers remains true: If you buy an Apple product, you're paying too much. 'There are equivalently or better performing PC analogues that are cheaper. Show me a Apple product, I'll show you a PC model that can do the same stuff for less. That and I still don't get the appeal of OS X beyond the cosmetic.

And the claims that Apple products "just work" and always last for years just make me laugh. I've known a number of Mac owners over the years and all but I think 1 or 2 of them have had problems with overheating, discolouration of plastic, screen failures, random freezing and dying optical drives. When these happen under warranty, Apple's service is top shelf but out of warranty, replacement parts are obscenely expensive. There's no question that there are a lot of junky PCs out there made by crappy manufacturers like Acer and Medion and they dilute the PC platform as a whole. But if you actually do a bit of research when buying a computer (which few do despite them costing hundreds of dollars) and don't just default to whatever has the lowest sticker price, there's very good quality and reliability to be had out there for cheap. If the first place you think to go when you want a new computer is Best Buy, well that's more your failing than anyone else's.

My girlfriend has a 3 year old Toshiba Core i3 laptop which cost $650 that she carries with her every day and which has had the crap beaten out of it. It's been dropped, left in a boiling hot car for hours and more than once, accidentally left on in her backpack to cook. She does everything on it from school work to watching video to editing photos. The hard drive is constantly full, as is her taskbar. It still works perfectly and hasn't even need an OS reload yet. Nor has my HP ProBook 6565b which cost $730, gets lugged back and forth to my IT job and runs for 12 hours a day basically every day.

Every time I bring up Apple related incidents like the ones above, the Apple Defence Force always leaps in and goes "Well they're computers like any other, of course they have problems sometimes." No, either your platform "just works" or it's like any other computer, it can't be both. They're not bad computers by any stretch of the imagination but they aren't the miracle machines that Apple fans have in their minds and not every PC is just waiting to fail from the day it's taken out of the box as they like to imply. It's just silly to think otherwise.

There's also the issue about how Apple's entire product philosophy is about limiting choice and competition and how much that ultimately will stifle innovation but that's an entirely different universe of a topic...

I'm sure the new MacBook can run a wide variety of games decently. But the high-end, dual-monitor gaming PC I built last August still cost less than the base Retina model.

@Grimluck343 said:

@patrickklepek said:

Game Center handles friends, achievements, matchmaking, and has largely eliminated competition in that category

Steam doesn't work on Mac anymore?

Game Centre has only existed on iOS so far. I think that's where he means it has eliminated most competition. There's OpenFeint like he said but it doesn't do anything particularly different or better. Game Centre will have a much bigger competitor with Steam on the Mac. At least until Apple finds a reason to disallow Steam because it "duplicates base product function".

@Wallzii said:

2880x1800 with a... 650M? What kind of crack are they smoking? I really don't see the point of making any marketing towards gamers with this hardware and that screen.

Pixel doubling. Desktop stuff runs at 2880x1880 giving you hella crisp text, but anything more intensive runs at 1440x990 (like the normal MBPs) and then gets doubled to 2880x1880. At least until someone starts plugging in top end Thunderbolt GPUs. I guess those could do 2880x1880 at decent speeds if you cut down on the details some.

And yeah I agree, anyone who buys this expecting native resolution gaming goodness doesn't know anything about hardware. That being said, a new 11" Macbook Air is winging its way towards me as I speak. It's light, extremely portable and does what I want in a laptop.

Yes, Apple... you've won yet another round. Take my money and deliver unto me your precious bounty. I shall receive it and lavish praise upon you. Amen.

@PXAbstraction: Absolutely valid concerns. The "just works" argument always was a software one though. Computer parts (which are mostly shared between Mac and PC), have certain failure rates.

And for many people price is a non-issue. (e.g. here in Switzerland were salaries and living expenses are scaled to three times what people in the US/EU make/pay, but fixed expenses on many imported goods aren't) BTW a couple of my friends lately got ultrabooks and there were by no means cheaper than an MacBook Air.

@Rawson said:

After dealing with years (or decades) of being the "computer guy" who has to deal with everything from shitty bloated printer drivers to Windows' own tendency to destroy itself after a couple years of solid use on a single install (something a friend terms "creeping crud"), the switch to a computer that claims to Just Work, and backs that claim up, is inviting.

As someone that has been building Windows machines for 8 years now, I don't understand this claim. This "creeping crud" sounds like, and almost always is, PEBKAC. I've been running the same Windows install for the past two years with no performance degredation. If your argument is that it "just works," it's because there isn't any crud for Macs to pick up. With the increased popularity will come the crud which will then cause worse performance. To think, if people used their computers intelligently, they wouldn't turn into pieces of shit.

@Wuddel Whenever I hear shit like I this my first thought is "Well clearly you're doing it wrong." I've used Windows 95 through Windows 8 (including Windows ME for over a year) and I've never lost a file due to "bugs in Windows." You don't sync dropbox because you're afraid Microsoft will mess it up? What a stupid statement. Such a weird world to live in where Windows is becoming an OS that only intelligent people can manage to use without screwing things up. It's not even that hard. I'm glad people like you have never tried the likes of Linux.

Not to mention I have an Asus laptop that's still running strong after 3 years. It's been dropped, left in my bag running, and even had an entire glass of water poured on it. Still runs like the day I bought it. Sure the trackpad is shit, but it was also $600. Three times cheaper than the base new MBP.

@wewantsthering said:

@TMThomsen said:

That screen is great and all, but I seriously doubt that the GPU will be able to render that resolution in any newer games on high setting.

Yeah the takeaway for me is that this will hopefully propel the entire industry to move this direction so I can have a 24" retina display for my gaming PC. :-)

But does it even make sense performancewise? Most modern AA techniques are quite lightweight and they effectively remove the need of larger resolutions.

@Wuddel said:

@PXAbstraction: Absolutely valid concerns. The "just works" argument always was a software one though. Computer parts (which are mostly shared between Mac and PC), have certain failure rates.

And for many people price is a non-issue. (e.g. here in Switzerland were salaries and living expenses are scaled to three times what people in the US/EU make/pay, but fixed expenses on many imported goods aren't) BTW a couple of my friends lately got ultrabooks and there were by no means cheaper than an MacBook Air.

Price a non-issue? That may be the case there but the world economy is a mess and on the brink of another recession. Price is absolutely a concern for most working people I'd say but when it comes to fashionable items, more people are content to use the credit cards they shouldn't have. But again, that's entirely another topic.

Also, there are Ultrabooks that are as expensive or more than a MacBook Air but if that's all your friends could find, they didn't look hard enough. I recently saw a Dell one in a catalogue at our office (we don't use Dell but they still send us literature) that cost the same amount as the base 13" Macbook Air but had a better CPU, a 14" screen I believe and I think a bigger SSD. The price wasn't lower but at is often the case, you got more bang for your buck.

Still looks like same old half assed Apple bs. If you LOVE apple then you love it, but for the rest of us who prefer to build PCs and just who use PCs in general (and spend 1/2 - 3/4 the money)...no thanks.

@ds8k: Assuming Mac-users are stupid is pretty much the most racist thing in "Nerdland". I've been using Linux since Kernel version 2.0.19 - that made me switch to OS X in the first place. Because apart from programming my own drivers I could not get my effing SCSI-scanner and my GDI-printer to work. Thank you very much -.-

@PXAbstraction: Some countries economies are less fucked then others. And even in a recession there are still wealthy people. Apple is shooting for that top end of the market and they get by. No one is complaining that Porsche is not making affordable cars. If you do not like that, vote communist.

@Wuddel: Then why can you not use Windows without encountering so-called "bugs"? I'm not assuming Mac-users are stupid. I'm assuming people that think Macs are the solution to their Windows woes are stupid, because most often, the problem lies with the user and not the OS. How many people do you know have said something along the lines of "I'm tired of getting viruses, I'm getting a Mac!"

That's great that you created a GUI interface in Visual Basic though.

Given how much gaming goes on iOS, it is a bit amusing that people go "Screw Apple!" on this topic.

@TMThomsen said:

@wewantsthering said:

@TMThomsen said:

That screen is great and all, but I seriously doubt that the GPU will be able to render that resolution in any newer games on high setting.

Yeah the takeaway for me is that this will hopefully propel the entire industry to move this direction so I can have a 24" retina display for my gaming PC. :-)

But does it even make sense performancewise? Most modern AA techniques are quite lightweight and they effectively remove the need of larger resolutions.

It does when computers are powerful enough. AA negates the need for high resolutions? lol what? That's crazy talk! I want the high resolution more for video, audio, photo editing and writing. Once computers are also fast enough to render 3D games at that resolution too, it will be amazing!

@Wuddel said:

@ds8k: Assuming Mac-users are stupid is pretty much the most racist thing in "Nerdland". I've been using Linux since Kernel version 2.0.19 - that made me switch to OS X in the first place. Because apart from programming my own drivers I could not get my effing SCSI-scanner and my GDI-printer to work. Thank you very much -.-

@PXAbstraction: Some countries economies are less fucked then others. And even in a recession there are still wealthy people. Apple is shooting for that top end of the market and they get by. No one is complaining that Porsche is not making affordable cars. If you do not like that, vote communist.

Using racist and communist implications as tactics to make your point, really?

<insert favourite facepalm image here>

@ds8k: Not really sure where you are you going with the Visual Basic comment, but whatever. As a proper nerd - and PC gamer - I used many different computers and OS over the years, incl. Windows since 3.1. I clearly use a Windows PC almost every day, and it works fine. It just requires more maintenance. But one in a while you get that "glitch" for no apparent reason, e.g. when I log in "too fast" into my win7 machine it shuts down video output.... sometimes. Or Word fucks up your PhD thesis after 100 pages and you convert everything to LaTeX, which you wanted to use in the first place, but you supervisor is a real MS fanboy.... My non-MS Mac software literally never failed me in a major way and kept being predictable. Don't change a fucking running system.

@PXAbstraction: Just explaining that it is a valid business model to go after rich peoples money. Because that is what basically every company does with every "flagship" product.

@ds8k said:

@Rawson said:

After dealing with years (or decades) of being the "computer guy" who has to deal with everything from shitty bloated printer drivers to Windows' own tendency to destroy itself after a couple years of solid use on a single install (something a friend terms "creeping crud"), the switch to a computer that claims to Just Work, and backs that claim up, is inviting.

As someone that has been building Windows machines for 8 years now, I don't understand this claim. This "creeping crud" sounds like, and almost always is, PEBKAC. I've been running the same Windows install for the past two years with no performance degredation. If your argument is that it "just works," it's because there isn't any crud for Macs to pick up. With the increased popularity will come the crud which will then cause worse performance. To think, if people used their computers intelligently, they wouldn't turn into pieces of shit.

@Wuddel Whenever I hear shit like I this my first thought is "Well clearly you're doing it wrong." I've used Windows 95 through Windows 8 (including Windows ME for over a year) and I've never lost a file due to "bugs in Windows." You don't sync dropbox because you're afraid Microsoft will mess it up? What a stupid statement. Such a weird world to live in where Windows is becoming an OS that only intelligent people can manage to use without screwing things up. It's not even that hard. I'm glad people like you have never tried the likes of Linux.

As for the "creeping crud," it turns out that it's not just my friend who refers to it as such. http://forums.cnet.com/7726-6142_102-3103687.htmlhttp://gigaom.com/mobile/this-week-at-mobile-tech-manor-61-the-creeping-crud/ Windows systems, with repeated use and installation/uninstallation of programs, patching, workarounds, new drivers and their bundles of issues, etc. will die often for people. Unless you're suggesting that using your computer "intelligently" means never actually using it, in which case you're a moron. You can claim that people could spend their time learning how to use it properly (in whatever insane definition of "properly" you use), but nobody wants to do that. Computers are meant to make your life easier, and should conform to the user. Not the other way around.

Also, nice job with the Linux superiority complex. With that kind of attitude, I'm sure next year will finally be the year of Linux on the desktop! I find it kind of funny that we have a derivative of Unix that's seeing widespread appeal and use. It's called Mac OSX. The problem is that the whole Unix/Linux scene doesn't want it to be usable for normal human beings. They literally just want to feel superior to other people, and have to do it via operating systems.

boooooooooooooriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing

Let's be objective. Without this turning into a PC vs. Macintosh debate, what is the significant difference between Windows and Mac, and why is Windows the preferred gaming platform as of right now?

The answer is this: Direct X

Direct X is an exclusive to the Windows platform, while Macintosh uses Open GL (Which cannot perform all the super flashy stuff that Direct X can).

Until Macintosh makes their equivalent to Direct X, it will be some time before we see the mainstream pc gaming market shift to favor them.

Biases aside, I'm glad that Macintosh is catching up, because it will force both platforms to be competitive which can only be a great thing for consumers.

I kinda want the 2880x1800 15.4" mbp now. Been annoyed with the lack of decent resolution displays since the end of the CRT days when I went from a 17" at 1600x1200 to a 19" flat panel at 1280x1024. Having to run a 30" monitor to get a decent resolution is complete bullshit.

It's kinda pricey though, especially when you add the cost of a windows license to get a decent OS on the thing.

@bio595 said:

Also, I don't know the value of a retina display on a laptop, with a resolution of 1440 by 900 on my 15" screen I can hardly discern individual pixels already.

iPad now has a resolution larger than most PC monitors, yet you can still clearly see the difference between the old one and the new one. There's value in it for sure and I can certainly see the pixels on my MacBook Air's 13" 1440x900 screen.

As for this article I would hardly claim Game Center matters at all on OS X, it's just achievements/friends for the iOS and largely crappy Mac App Store games. OS X gaming is still a joke due to the lack of Direct X, most games on Mac run terribly compared to their Windows versions. I used to install Windows 7 on my old MacBook to play games because the OS X versions of StarCraft II and Civ V were atrocious.

Macs are in the same situation as before, anybody wanting to play any games for real is likely going to get a gaming PC, I know that's what I'll continue doing.

@ashriels said:

Let's be objective. Without this turning into a PC vs. Macintosh debate, what is the significant difference between Windows and Mac, and why is Windows the preferred gaming platform as of right now?

The answer is this: Direct X

Direct X is an exclusive to the Windows platform, while Macintosh uses Open GL (Which cannot perform all the super flashy stuff that Direct X can).

Until Macintosh makes their equivalent to Direct X, it will be some time before we see the mainstream pc gaming market shift to favor them.

Biases aside, I'm glad that Macintosh is catching up, because it will force both platforms to be competitive which can only be a great thing for consumers.

OpenGL 4 is a lot more capable than previous versions, but it's still lagging behind directx for gaming features for sure.

Also the OSX implementation of OpenGL is god-awful compared to windows and linux. Try running Houdini or Maya or Blender or some other multiplatform DCC app on it and you'll notice just how crappy it is. I mainly use Blender and I get better performance in linux than I do windows, but the difference is hardly noticeable compared to the drop down to snow leopard. As for the crud comments above I've reinstalled plenty of macs because they became bogged down and crappy after extended use. I know the accepted solution in the apple community is to just buy a new mac and proclaim that it just works, but not everyone can do that every 18 months or so.

@Rawson: Then why have I never had a Windows installation die on me? I've been building my own Windows machines since the age of 14. Hell, I even enjoyed Vista despite the occasional video driver error. Why is it that I can use Windows and not run into the same problems as the average user? I've been running the same installation of Windows on my laptop for the past three years. My desktop is going on two years.

There's no Linux superiority complex here - I don't use it at all. I have attempted in the past but decided it wasn't worth the effort. It's nice to see Apple has made an OS as user-friendly as OS X seems to be. My complaints exist merely because I read claims of how people dump Windows for Macs because they're tired of viruses or it got too slow. It doesn't happen to me, and it's not like I'm some mystical being or anything. I watch porn just like the rest of you.

@Wuddel: Twas merely a joke - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkDD03yeLnU I don't see this necessary maintenance that everyone talks about with Windows. Once in awhile I install new video drivers on my desktop machine, but on my laptop I literally just turn it on and use it. I install Windows Updates and that's it. I use that machine to work in Photoshop, PowerPoint, Word, Eclipse, CodeBlocks, etc. What maintenance do you need to do on your system?

Oh joy more over priced underpowered slow ass apple hardware in shiny white plastic that plays small mounts of crap games and runs a crap OS with crap GPUS/cpus that are way behind the PC GPUS/cpus that you can get for the same price or less. And since when is the fucking GeForce GTX 650M AKA a low end midrange GPU "absurdly powerful" I can get a fucking custom made to order Pc laptop with a GeForce GTX 680M for that much fucking money and it will be painted in fucking Red sports car paint. and i can hack the lame OSX OS to run on the damn thing if i wanted to run a crap OS on my PC.

In other words only apple hipster think anything happend (hint it did not nothing ever does happen at apple other than they bring out some tech they stole in shiny white plastic and the apple hipsters go insane and start posting it on websites that have nothing to do with apple.)

everybody else dont give a fuck because they down own apple crap and are not dumb enough to buy it and they run real OS that give you full control like linux and windows. hell maybe even blackberry or palm webos

Move on with your life and pretend you did not run into this "NEWS" hell lets hear more about the wonderbook from sony its more interesting.

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-21539_7-57449138-10391702/hands-on-with-sonys-wonderbook-not-a-book-at-all/

That green felt theme has really got to go. Hope they at least throw in some skins with the desktop app.

A PC allows an experienced user to get $2000 of performance for 1000 bucks.

A Mac allows anyone to get $1000 of performance for $2000.

This is strictly my experience from desktops but I'm sure mobile comparisons can easily be made...