@metal_mills: Sorry, someone clearly derailed this.

To your question at hand, I think it's just a matter of the specific story that they want to tell, and that did not involve creating a group that was all encompassing hate for everything. I suppose from a narrative stand point, you could just interpret this as their women being held up as a prized necessity to maintain the pure society they desire. They need their women, so they elevate their women

It's because video games aren't considered art and have to cater to whatever vocal minority is yelling the loudest and banging their pots and pans together.

Glad I could clear that up for you.

@mildmolasses: I though he was a black KKK member that was blind in that skit.

I think that's a good idea. You might also want to think about why you thought it was ok to generalize about millions of gay people based on interactions you've had with only a handful of gay people.

I guess I need to tell my best friend he can't be gay anymore since he is black.

Between this thread and the one about POPERY, I don't know which one is more insane.

@mildmolasses: @krullban:

How did I forget that? Time for a Chappelle's show Netflix bender.

@gogosox82: That was a different sketch. The gay KKK clip was posted at the top of this page

Meh, who cares about racism. And it's there to serve the narrative! However, misogyny is never okay.

So, Bioshock, right guys?

@mildmolasses: Totally forgot about that sketch. God, i miss that show.

Is there some specific game that had misogyny as a thematic element recently that got panned for it or something? What am I missing here?

Person A writes an essay exploring racism. Person B runs around shouting "Fuck women! Women suck!"

Person C acts befuddled as to why Person B is drawing more attention than Person A.

What?

Why hide these subjects? Anything can be examined, questioned or made fun of. Religion, races, holocaust and etc. That's freedom of speech.

I thought Tomb Raider was largely accused of being that? I don't know if it had misogyny as a thematic element, but many accused that game of being misogynistic.

I didn't think that misogyny was one of its themes.

Dude just wants to tell a good story, that's all. Didn't you see that GB segment with him? Misogyny must not have been an integral part to the story he wanted to tell if its not present. I mean this isn't a work of historical truths, right? Neither is it being promoted in such a way. So don't be surprised if he touches on only certain subjects in this based somewhat in reality fictitious story.

That seemed more to do with the horrible pre-release marketing and developer interviews than the game itself.

I think people are having confusion separating the exploration of idea rather than being something. Bioshock Infinite uses the racism as a characteristic of its antagonist. The game "Ethnic Cleansing" made by a neo-nazi record label is racist because your only purpose is to murder minorities. Sure you could argue that both are inappropriate, but one is certainly trying for an intelligent exploration of the idea. It would be impossible to create a story about suffragettes without there being elements of misogyny in there, but that wouldn't make the work itself misogynistic

Holy mother of fuck this thread got dark.

Right, but there's a world of difference there. Talking about racism and being racist are completely different things. So I'm confused as to why this thread seems to be comparing an attempt to discuss racism to actively being misogynistic.

I love how many people are COMPLETELY MISSING THE POINT OF THE OP.

He is saying that the actions of a lot of the characters in terms of interacting with people of other races is very much in line with how things probably were 100 years ago, HOWEVER, despite this being right slap bang in the middle of the suffragette movement, there is almost no sexism towards females, in fact other characters see them as equals, which isn't historically accurate.

I agree with this. Racism is a major theme because it is heavily featured in the overall plot of the story. Sure, an argument can be made that not enough attention was given to the misogynistic themes and the role of women in those times, but I highly doubt it was a situation where they thought, "Racism sells! Sexism doesn't!"

Sometimes I notice in period piece films that black people are placed in roles they would never be in at that time, but it's just a passing thought as the major plot has nothing to do with race, so who cares.

Also, it's a fucking floating city where people shoot crows from their hands.

I think it's the difference between advocating something and not. I would assume the creators of the game aren't advocating racism and that their story is actually trying to say that that is a bad thing. This is just a guess obviously, but it's what I am gathering by some of the talk in reviews and what we are tiptoeing around here. I haven't seen a game yet that has misogynistic characters or circumstances that is aiming to tell a story that says that those things are bad. There's no video game equivalent of The Handmaid's Tale that I know of. So, it's really comparing apples and oranges. One is a crafted story that has some sort of message, the other is some people (reviewers, commentators) seeing bad marketing gimmicks or poor handling of female characters and pointing it out.

@mildmolasses: I see. I guess my confusion stems from the fact that there have been people who accuse certain games of being misogynistic when they do not explore those themes at all or they don't try to be, so I could see others accusing this game of being racist because it tries to actively explore that theme.

Oh, and if we're talking about the treatment of women being anachronistic to the time period, from what little I have read in one or two pretty much spoiler free reviews, there is plenty of anachronistic stuff going on. I would wait to see if the story sheds some light on the situation, whether through the game proper or the collectibles that Irrational loves to pepper their world with, before saying that this is some big thing.

Ah, I stand corrected. I only skimmed the OP then started reading comments. I am part of the problem.

Back on topic then, I'd imagine that misogyny was not a theme the writers felt like approaching, regardless of how appropriate to the era it may be. I see nothing wrong with that. This isn't historical 1912, this is Ken Levine's 1912 with flying cities and magic crow powers. Expecting then to adhere to every societal norm from the era seems like an unreasonable expectation. Yes, it is a missed opportunity, but I'd rather have writers that want to talk about these things doing so. Forcing someone to shoehorn it in when they aren't adequately equipped to broach the subject would be infinitely worse.

EDIT: In my defense, the title of this thread is EXTREMELY misleading

That's weird considering the time period, but I'll make my own judgment when I see it for myself.

yeah it seems a bit asymmetrical but i'm guessing it has more to do with their intent/story telling than actual fear of upsetting people because both racism and misogyny are pretty equally touchy subjects across the board.

Female soldiers in my authentic 1912 period piece video game?

Fuckin' dropped, unsubbed and unfollowed!

lmfao @ this thread

Another rousing victory for white nerds discussing social issues on the internet. Way to go, guys. A+ for all of you.

Holy hell, this thread went off the rails. A lot of these posts are about to disappear, get back on topic or this thread will get locked.

there arent enough videogames with black protagonists. industry is racist.

As for the actual topic at hand, maybe the story that Irrational wanted to tell didn't involve misogyny? The game isn't a historical simulation (it takes place in a city that's in the sky) so I don't think it needs or wants to be a 100% accurate portrayal of America in the 1910s. Complaining that a game should feature more misogyny is pretty silly, dude. There's no grand conspiracy here.

@jillsandwich WHAT DO YOU MEAN EXACTLY BY "GETTING DARK" HUH?????

If Ken Levine wanted to explore sexism, he would. And you seem to be ignorant of the fact that there is a difference between a work depicting sexism and a work being sexist. People are getting worked up for the latter, not the former.

To speak directly to the point instead of attacking the question itself...

I don't think that the early 20th century was defined by misogyny, per se, not in the same sense that blacks were defined by racism. People did not *hate* women, they just saw them as a weaker sex and less able to perform vital tasks than men, except when those vital tasks included cooking, cleaning, and raising the kids. I don't think you'd see posters saying, "Stupid broads, go back where you came from! We dont' want your kind around here!" The only place where that kind of antagonism would exist is in cases where women were pressing for greater rights. So, if there were a women's suffrage movement on Columbia, you could expect there to be some derision poured on the specific women who were a part of that movement.

I say all this without having played Infinite and without having lived in the early 1900s, but are any of Columbia's leaders women? If so, that's where your real anachronism lies.

Shifting the goal posts I see. Well, let me reply with Strawman. Why doesn't Call of Duty have RPG elements and complex characters? Why isn't there any first-person shooting action in Telltale's The Walking Dead? Because they're not those types of games. When you start criticizing a game/book/movie for what it isn't you can never be satisfied. Criticism can only be taken seriously if it is valid.

Maybe not misogyny, but Lollipop Chainsaw had satire that was perceived by some as sexist.

Yeah, THAT is what I'm talking about.

So only because I am white and male I don' have rights and feelings? Seriously stop trying to judge me because of my color or gender......

And starving gamer where did you go the last lets say 6 months? Almost every game that was made for males and has woman in it is sexist and misogynistic And especially if it does not have a female lead character....

This comparison is ridiculous. The racism used in this game, just like all of the political ideals expressed, are there to represent beliefs of the time taken to extremism. The game is trying to paint the height of American Exceptionalism in a satirical, extremist fashion. Unlike the current trend of sexism in games, its not glorified and accepted. You are supposed to feel uncomfortable about the terrible things these people are doing and believe in. The reason sexism in games is a "hot button issue" is because its not painted as an issue or satirized, its simply there as if its an acceptable part of society; which it unfortunately is in our current culture, and that's a huge problem.

Like the stuff Agent 47 did in the trailer or the "rape" scene in Tomb Raider? No one thought it was cool and funnyand it never was represent in such a way. Still these feminists and what ever screamed misogyny and sexism hell even torture porn because according to these people you can not do that to woman. To kill men in brutal ways or to hurt and rape them like in Far Cry 3 is totally ok. But god beware if its a woman.

Being ABOUT racism isn't the same thing as being racist. The game isn't being racist. That would be like saying Schindler's List is anti-Semitic because it's about the holocaust. When some people get upset about misogyny in games, it's because they think those games are BEING misogynist (whether you agree is another matter). The difference isn't hard to understand.

Here is the problem. If the majority does not think like that which is the fact for most of these recent cases why is the minority right and the majority not? Who decides if its right or wrong? Is it misogyny just because some people on twitter said so?

I will concede that in those cases, they simply didn't get it and were blowing hot air. I played all of those games and 100% agree that they included no sexism, they were simply telling a story and in no way glorifying the violence against women portrayed. Is this movement sometimes misguided? Absolutely, but that said is sexism a big problem in our culture and, by extension video games? Yes, without a doubt. Video games are definitely the target right now even though the problem exists culturally, but I truly think that wer as gamers are being given a chance to prove that our culture is able to rise above this, and be truly inclusive of everyone. It makes no sense to me that a group of people who stereotypically are "geeks", "nerds", and "outcasts" aren't the first to be be truly accepting of all.